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Thread: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

  1. #51
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Im a tenacious b*****d, and never readily give up.

    Ive taken the gauge apart for the umpeenth time, cos I know what is wrong with it, and cant believe that Ill have to pay $200 for the sake of a minuscule bit of metal.

    So, this time I fashioned a link from......a twist tie!

    Because it is so soft --unlike a paper clip -- the ends can be wrapped easily around the 1.5 mm or so screw on the expander spring end.... and the 1.5 mm stud on the clockwork end. The whole thing is only about 10 mm long.

    The pump gauge now works, though the 9 bar reading might be a little suspect.

    I also screwed in the regulator on the pump a little more to increase pressure due to lack of mains water.

    --Robusto


  2. #52
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Well done..... good to see some innovation at work....

    I guess you could also try a thin bit of aluminium- like the stuff you get in tins of instant coffee as a seal (no Im not suggesting that you use it - but you might know someone who does!!)....

    Well now for some extractions????


  3. #53
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Extractions. :(

    Its like starting over from day one. Using the Silvia is second nature, nice PID control, fantastic microfoam. The big Grimac is totally different. A whole new routine has to be learned.

    Every step has to be thought of deliberately -- its not second nature. For instance. You dont automatically realise you can set one group going while you load the second, and while theyre both extracting you can be steaming.

    Whoa....... baby steps. One at a time until its ingrained in the mind.

    Ive yet to get the grind and load right. Then there is the cooling flushes to get rigtht.

    Extractions have beeen disastrous. On two fronts.

    I programmed the vulumetric keys without loaded baskets. So not enough water poured through when they WERE loaded (much of the water is absorbed in the puck).

    I also overdosed, choking the big beast. The brews tasted bitter, and body rather thin. Heaps and heaps of crema, not red, but darkish. But still thin. :(

    Steaming -- even worse. My Silvia and I make very god microfoam. Weve got it down pat. Grimac and I have a lot of getting used to each other.

    The 4-hole wand and head of steam are just too much. As I say, like the first day of school again. The latte I am drinking as I type (with an expression more akin to sucking lemons) is akin to the worst dishwater any tenth-rate cafe ever served up.

    Instead of microfoam, Im blastsing big bubbles like a beginner.

    Will take a lot of experimenting with different angles, depths and amount of steam.

    Ive ran out of beans, and roasted up a 400 gram batch today for further sacrifice.

    I like the feel of the machine (except for the 4-hole steam wand).

    But this whole commercial HX experience has given me a new admiration and respect for the Silvias abilities.

    --Robusto

  4. #54
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Robusto....

    I know the feeling - very well! Its like riding a bike with trainer wheels and someone has just pulled them off!! ;D ;D

    The best way to program the volumetric keys is for the hot water flushes ONLY.... and start and stop the flow manually just like the Silvia... ;)

    But if you MUST use volumetric.... ::) you can either program about 50% more flow without the basket... or better dose, tamp and load as per usual and then set the volume with a live extraction.....

    Dosing is also different (and I suspect that is true to some extent between different manufacturers of commercials) - but that will soon be sorted. I overdose mine and it works really well.

    Steaming..... Yep you have a real steaming monster.... :) which will steam all day - every day and that 4 hole tip really gets the milk going.... You will get it right (took me quite a while) - eventually I can now do enough milk for just one latte and produce microfoam.... it is FAR easier with larger volumes - funny that - probably what it was designed for :D.

    If you want to make life in the texturing department a lot easier - get the 2 hole tip from CoffeeParts - works quite well as supplied but a little slow. Drill the existing holes out to about 1.5mm and it is fantastic..... :) :) and when you have mastered that go back to the 4 hole.

    It is a great learning experience.... it took me quite a while- you can master it (and the machine as well ;)) just like I did. ;) :)

  5. #55
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Yes, JavaB, its a case of taming the beast. I like your analogy of the training wheels being ripped off.

    You spend two years or so perfecting skills ... and all or a sudden you drop to the bottom of the class and start over on a shifting playing field, so to speak.

    Where did those training wheels go.....

    --Robusto

  6. #56
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    One benefit of having to tinker with a machine to get it going is that you learn how it works. Eventually.

    I noticed yesterday that despite drawing water from the hot water wand, it wasnt being replaced automatically in the boiler. *The level dropped down to a dangerous minimum as indicated on the sight glass. *Didnt want the element to be exposed.

    Checked to ensure *electrical connectors were tight.

    As a last resort, I went to pull the spade connector from the water level probe to make sure ungrounding still forced the pump on.

    Instead of uncoupling, the probe rose up through the boiler, and on came the pump.

    So, the level is manually adjustable by lowering or rising it?

    Also, since screwing down the pump pressure bolt (to increase pressure as compensation for the absence of mains pressure) I cannot force the pump on any longer via pushing in the knob on the inlet valve.

    Any thoughts?

    --Robusto

  7. #57
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1173088713/45#55 date=1173381609

    As a last resort, I went to pull the spade connector from the water level probe to make sure ungrounding still forced the pump on.

    Instead of uncoupling, the probe rose up through the boiler, and on came the pump.

    So, the level is manually adjustable by lowering or rising it?

    --Robusto
    Yep, the level in the boiler is adjustable depending on the amount the probe is inserted...... pretty standard on most machines. (Mine has a float and a reed relay which is unusual)

    Also, since screwing down the pump pressure bolt (to increase pressure as compensation for the absence of mains pressure) I cannot force the pump on any longer via pushing in the knob on the inlet valve.
    Im assuming you are talking manual fill.
    Generally the manual fill relies on mains pressure to operate.... i.e. it doesnt operate the pump or solenoids at all.... It bypasses all circuitry allowing you to fill or flush the boiler without power connected... but (if the machine is operational) it does require at least 1.1 Bar of water supply pressure to overcome the pressure in the boiler and the one way valve..... so water from a reservoir just wont cut it.

  8. #58
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Aha. Yes, Im referring to the manual fill knob. It appears to be a valve, like a water tap, but instead of turning it, its pushed against a spring load.

    Im pretty sure that by pushing it earlier on, it set the pump going. Even though theres no mains pressure. Strange.

    BTW: Made an "acceptable" latte this morning. I had to hold the jug extremely steady, and precisely in relation to the position of the wand near the surface. No room for error.

    (Luckily I drink espressos. But I cant convince my wife to forgo lattes for them)

    --Robusto

  9. #59
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Yep, mine is a lever which you pull out and then press down to open the valve.... (kind of an interlock so you cant add water by accident) but it only operates with mains pressure. I found it very useful when flushing the boiler.

    Small, smooth movements of the jug is required - and very little introduction of air.... or it rapidly turns your milk into soap suds...... but once mastered..... beautiful microfoam in a few seconds.

  10. #60
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1173088713/45#52 date=1173349206
    Extractions. *:(

    Its like starting *over from day one. *Using the Silvia is second nature, nice PID control, fantastic microfoam. *The big Grimac is totally different. A whole new routine has to be learned.

    Every step has to be thought of deliberately -- its not second nature. *For instance. *You dont automatically realise you can set one group going while you load the second, and while theyre both extracting you can be steaming.

    Whoa....... baby steps. One at a time *until its ingrained in the mind.

    Ive yet to get the grind and load right. *Then there is the cooling flushes to get rigtht.

    Extractions have beeen disastrous. On two fronts.

    I programmed the vulumetric keys without loaded baskets. So not enough water poured through when they WERE loaded *(much of the water is absorbed in the puck).

    I also overdosed, choking the big beast. The brews tasted bitter, and body rather thin. *Heaps and heaps of crema, *not red, but darkish. But still thin. * *:(

    Steaming -- even worse. * My Silvia and I make very god microfoam. *Weve got it down pat. * Grimac and I have a lot of getting used to each other.

    The 4-hole wand and head of steam are just too much. *As I say, like the first day of school again. * The latte I am drinking as I type (with an expression more akin to sucking lemons) is *akin to the worst dishwater any tenth-rate cafe ever served up.

    Instead of microfoam, Im blastsing big bubbles like a beginner.

    Will take a lot of experimenting with different angles, *depths and amount of steam.

    Ive ran out of beans, and roasted up a 400 gram batch today for further sacrifice.

    I like the feel of the machine (except for the 4-hole steam wand).

    But this whole commercial HX experience has given me a new admiration and *respect *for the Silvias abilities.

    --Robusto
    In the brief time that I had the Pav running I found that I could use the same dose and tamp (and Bezzera basket) and got an extraordinary shot on the second go. Im sure theres work ahead with pressurestat settings and idling temp flushing to sort out. But it was very promising.

    I guess BZ to Pav is more of a sideways step, compared to Silvia to Grimac.

    On the 4 hole steam tip front, it really is a learning curve. Ive used a range of tips and Ive come back to the Bezza 4 hole tip. I can now easily get microfoam every time without any dramas, but that took quite some learning and many disappointments along the way. Its all programmed into muscle memory now, so its virtually robotic. Hopefully the Pav will beahve similarly to the BZ.

    Cheers,

    Mark.

  11. #61
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaB link=1173088713/30#39 date=1173256479
    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1173088713/30#38 date=1173256234

    The pressure reducer could be but probably wont be a problem. Im sure there are ways to convert how long it takes to fill a 10 litre bucket
    into *pressure.

    --Robusto
    Nah....

    If you get your brew gauge working.... connect your machine.... slowly crack open the tap and watch the gauge climb.... mine got to 5Bar.... so sweet - no pressure regulator required!

    The plumbing in the machine can withstand 9 Bar... so no problem with a static measurement (just dont run the machine until you have checked the pressure is within the allowed range).
    So does that mean if the mains is 5bar then when the machine is off you open the water tap water will flow through it?
    How long can a pump run without water till it breaks? as when you plumb it to the mains and the new pipes have air in them. Just curiosity :)

  12. #62
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee Kid link=1173088713/60#60 date=1173424578

    So does that mean if the mains is 5bar then when the machine is off you open the water tap water will flow through it?
    How long can a pump run without water till it breaks? as when you plumb it to the mains and the new pipes have air in them. Just curiosity :)
    When you say water tap.... do you mean the hot water (tea) tap.... in which case the answer is no - it is solenoid operated - no power - valve stays shut. The solenoid on the boiler fill is also shut as is the three way valve. So you have water pressure (mains) up to the three way valve (including in the heat exchanger) and to the boiler fill solenoid.

    Must pumps wont run very long at all without water.... they will overheat and damage the seals. There is a manual fill button / lever on most models which bypasses the boiler fill solenoid. So by operating that you allow water (or air ) from the supply pipes to flow into the boiler ( and that can be used to bleed the pipes of air).

    If you dont do that, the moment the pump turns on (which only happens when the brew three way or the tank fill solenoid is also open) the water pressure would push the air out of the pipes- through the pump - and into where ever really fast. So water would be at the pump in a matter of a second or two.... too quickly to do any damage.

  13. #63
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky link=1173088713/45#59 date=1173407319


    In the brief time that I had the Pav running I found that I could use the same dose and tamp (and Bezzera basket) and got an extraordinary shot on the second go. Im sure theres work ahead with pressurestat settings and idling temp flushing to sort out. But it was very promising.

    I guess BZ to Pav is more of a sideways step, compared to Silvia to Grimac.

    On the 4 hole steam tip front, it really is a learning curve. Ive used a range of tips and Ive come back to the Bezza 4 hole tip. I can now easily get microfoam every time without any dramas, but that took quite some learning and many disappointments along the way. Its all programmed into muscle memory now, so its virtually robotic. Hopefully the Pav will beahve similarly to the BZ.

    Cheers,

    Mark.
    Thats good Mark, for you its more the nuances of the two different machines. *Being able to use that mental and muscle knowledge already programmed into memory is most useful and flattens out the learning curve considerably.


    JavaB, *my water (tea) wand is a direct feed from the top of the boiler, manually *operated via a knob (no electrics, unlike yours), exactly the same way as the steam wand. In fact, it splatters forth as much steam as water!

    Coffeekid:
    Ive read on another forum someone say that Procon pumps allegedly specify *they can be run dry for 2 minutes *before damage is sustained.
    Personally, I wouldnt take the chance.

    As a long-time boat owner, Ive seen (and replaced) damaged pump impellers -- damaged because water intakes were blocked, and the rubber impeller rubbed on the body, wearing itself out or breaking off vanes altogether. *

    Swimming pool pumps --got one of those too ;)
    -- have a centrifical *vane, and while theres no firction, water is needed to cool the electric motor which overheats when run dry.


    Vibe pumps can be run dry without damage. But prolonged use (with or without water) overheats the electricals and causes damage that way.

    --Robusto *

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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1173088713/60#62 date=1173427985

    JavaB, my water (tea) wand is a direct feed from the top of the boiler, manually operated via a knob (no electrics, unlike yours), exactly the same way as the steam wand. In fact, it splatters forth as much steam as water!
    --Robusto
    Ah.... 125C water to make tea or long blacks..... not good :o

    In the Cimbali when you press the button it opens two solenoids - one to an economiser (which mixes the 125C boiler water and incoming cold water to give 93C water (the economiser also replaces the water removed from the boiler with cold water) and one to dispense the hot water. It also turns on the pump (to supply the water to the economiser)....

    More to go wrong.... but at least the hot water isnt half steam as well. ;D

  15. #65
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    I am watching this thread with interest. I am keen to see whether for home a second hand commercial is viable...I hope it goes well.


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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaB link=1173088713/60#63 date=1173428457
    Ah.... 125C water to make tea or long blacks..... not good :o

    In the Cimbali when you press the button it opens two solenoids - one to an economiser (which mixes the 125C boiler water and incoming cold water to give 93C water (the economiser also replaces the water removed from the boiler with cold water) and one to dispense the hot water. It also turns on the pump (to supply the water to the economiser)....

    More to go wrong.... but at least the hot water isnt half steam as well. ;D
    Yes, more can go wrong, but you have to stand back and appreciate the thought and engineering that goes into translating a problem into a technological solution.

    The spluttering hot water tap is no huge problem, and neither is the temperature. Although the water begins life as superheated steam, it has to descend to sea-level boiling point of just 100C as it exits the wand.

    Good for tea, though Im not sure Id use boiler water for anything but cleaning, flushing portaliters etc. Not until I give the boiler another descale at least. And we dont do long blacks.

    Ozscott, I can tell you that....so far .... the big Grimacs best feature is: just sitting there. Just being.

    Its a fantastic sight to behold, an absolute commercial beast on the bench, no dinky toy, but the real serious thing.

    And I havent even bugun to utilise it for its express purpose: making coffees.

    But buying a second hand commercial can be a hit and miss affair, the luck of the draw with these things -- and buying mine from interstate, sight unseen, is not to be recommended. :-/

    If you land a dud, you have to try to source parts , you can skin your knuckles dismantling bits, and its laborious, time consuming and tiring work.
    Groping around in the dark half the time doesnt help --- although you get much appreciated practical help and moral support here from guys like JavaB and Sparky. :)

    Is it viable? The satisfaction alone makes it so. I am not convinced the Grimac will make better coffee than the Silvia. But it will make more at a time, and there are many more knobs to play with. ;D ;D

    --Robusto

  17. #67
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    yep cant beat heaps of knobs mate. I can see how it can be a labour of love, but I cant help feeling that it would be like a scaled down version of what I have been doing for the last few years, restoring a 21 Seafarer! Although I dare say the commercial machine is a little less of a money pit!

    I love new (or old) toys and a good tinker...nothing like that to relax from work. Keep up the reports.

    Cheers

  18. #68
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    The hot water tap on my Cimbali M28 is a manual valve and pulls water from about a third of the way up the boiler with no mixing of cooler water. By the time the water hits the cup it is no longer boiling.

    I use it all the time for anything needing hot water, from soups to the water for boiling pasta. This helps insure that the water in the boiler never goes stale and helps reduce my energy costs as less energy is used to heat the water up in the boiler than in a pan on the stove top where much of the heat from the burner goes into the atmosphere rather than into the water.

    I will also use the steam wand for such things as heating up soups. It is far faster than using a pan on the stove and is more energy efficient.


    Java "Ah the wonders of having a commercial unit on your bench!" phile

  19. #69
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Hello Javaphile - if Im not mistaken the Cimbali M28 is a +$5k machine? Thank goodness it can heat up soup economically!

    Dennis "giggled like a schoolgirl" phile

  20. #70
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Youd have to be very satisfied about the state of your boiler to consume water fron it -- thats the complete peace of mind you get from from a complete strip and descale.

    Having a coffee machine on all day is a convenient source of boiling water on demand -- for any number of non-coffee uses, from Japhaphiles pasta to dishwashing.

    Speaking of energy saving, Mrs Robusto is tempted to use the cup warming tray to warm dishes. Is pretty warm up there.

    --Robusto

  21. #71
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Robusto,

    Hows the coffee extraction and milk texturing going? Are you getting the new beastie tamed?

    There is no room on my warming tray for plates - theres just too many cups! ;D

    Thats certainly is an advantage of a complete strip down, the contents of my boiler are probably replaced every few days because of the hot water used. Ive just got to remember to recharge the water softener every month or two and the boiler should remain clean and full of fresh water.

  22. #72
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis link=1173088713/60#68 date=1173472550
    Hello Javaphile - if Im not mistaken the Cimbali M28 is a +$5k machine? Thank goodness it can heat up soup economically!

    Dennis "giggled like a schoolgirl" phile
    I had a laugh Indeed. Im not sure how much the machine, now almost 20 years old, sold for new (I was once told in the $10-$12k range), but when the owner of the local Cimbali dealership heard I had it when I showed up there for my rebuild parts he offered me $3k in new equipment for it (the machine was in unworking condition with possibly a dead pump at this time). Talking to one of the techs there a couple years ago he said they are the single most sought after model due to their reliability and simplicity. According to him they lease out the door at $500 a month and are a pure profit machine as they almost never need a repair. He said theres no way theyd ever sell it, only lease it out.

    Not only does it do soup, it also does hot chocolates in seconds! ;D


    Java "Loves his Cimbali!" phile

  23. #73
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1173088713/60#69 date=1173473946
    Speaking of energy saving, Mrs Robusto is tempted to use the cup warming tray to warm dishes. Is pretty warm up there.

    --Robusto
    Go for it! I had a laugh I use mine for that all the time! I put the dishes on top of my glasses to warm while I cook the meal. Theyre the perfect temp by the time everythings all cooked to keep the food warm with-out burning anyone touching them. :)


    Java "101 non-coffee uses for your espresso machine!" phile

  24. #74
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    this is a bit like me wrapping up my pie in alfoil and sticking it near a bank of cylinders under my outboard cowl - hot pie without the burn

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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaB link=1173088713/60#70 date=1173481916
    Robusto,

    Hows the coffee extraction and milk texturing going? Are you getting the new beastie tamed?
    JavaB, *the lattes are pretty much hit and miss (mainly). *Not so much dishwater as a couple of nights ago, *but a long way to go before Silvia-like microfoam.

    However -- it produces very dry steam very quickly -- a few drops only of condensation have to be flushed from the wand, and away it goes. *

    Espressos... *pretty near ok, improving. *Theyre beginning to have some body to them. Still working on the grind and dose with a bigger basket. *

    Ive resurrected the DMM and thermocouple, which Ive attached centrally on top of the boiler. *The reading shows *around 122 .

    Is that a little on the low side? *

    --Robusto

  26. #76
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Robusto...

    For a week or two my wife gave me a hard time about my lates :P (shes a big late drinker). The Solis made such beautiful microfoam..... but eventually it clicked and I can now produce equally good microfoam everytime :) - and in a fraction of the time the Solis took... Commercials are just steaming monsters and VERY unforgiving!!

    Espressos were less of a problem - had those sussed in a couple of days.... and can now get pretty much any result I like (mainly combination of brew temp - determined by flush time - and grind)..... I have been getting really great ristrettos!!

    122C corresponds to 1.15 Bar boiler pressure- so Id say you are spot on the money. You can increase the boiler pressure to get more steam (as if it is needed ::)) but that also will require longer cooling flushes. I run mine at 1.1 Bar and find the results are truly excellent - admittedly 7 months after the first shot was pulled - and they were pretty damn good after a couple of weeks use.

  27. #77
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    My wife -- the latte drinker -- tells me her drinks are noticeably improving.

    I suppose she goes mainly by taste (silly me!!) while I notice things like the milk got *hot even before I manoeuvrered *the wand into positiion for stretching.

    Deficiency in texture, from my perspective, is still a problem as I try to master the Grimacs 4-hole wand and over-abundance of steam.

    Im also still coming to terms with the fact that I can now pull two coffees and steam at the same time. *

    Often Im standing there, watching and analysing the pour -- as Ive always loved to do --- subconsciously thinking that I then have to wait for the boiler to get up to steam temperature for the milk. *Old habits die hard.

    Espressos: *Ive been at work all day, so not much opportunity to do them. *But tonight, doing a Sumatra Mandehling-based bean, *the pour was medium - dark- brown.

    Crema extended 100 per cent down to the very bottom of the 60 ml glass until I stopped the pour. * Thats no exaggeration. *Then it rose up and hovered near the top for about 10 mm.

    Mouth-feel was a little on the thin side.

    Still a lot to learn about when to stop flushing. At the moment Im flushing out about 200 ml of water from each group, looking for tell-tale signs of when enough is enough. *(I know thres a drought on: the water is used for cleaning the portafilters and the rest put in the garden)

    The water streams from the *shower screen very bloated (with steam?) at first, * and almost splattery. *It takes 200 ml to go through before the base of the streams appear to thin out and congregate closer to the shower screen and become far less violent. * *

    Id rather trust a thermometer than looking blindly for evidence that the right temp *for brewing has been reached. *Perhaps its time to find a styrene cup.

    --Robusto

  28. #78
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Robusto

    Sounds like you are making good progress. You will find you will soon master the espressos..... but texturing..... takes a while.

    Re flushing. That will vary from machine to machine depending on the size of the heat exchanger, the boiler temperature, the percentage of the heat exchanger in water as opposed to steam etc....

    On mine it takes about 120 ml flush if idle for 5 minutes or more and about 60 ml if idle between 2 and 5 minutes.... and about 30 ml if less than 2 minutes (mainly to check if my guesstimated time since the last shot is correct...) if steam comes out with the water..... I then give it one or two 60 ml shots. You can probably guess what my volumetrics are set to from the above. ;)

    Yes, you wait until all the hissing and visible steam has stopped and the water flows calmly out from the showerscreen. Often it will start as multiple hissing steams - but will settle down into (generally) one steady stream of water from the centre of the showerscreen.

    200ml does seem excessive but I have seen reports of other machines where the users needed to flush that much.....

    That of course is the advantage of having the machine plumbed in. It wont save water but will save you frustration.

  29. #79
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    JavaB, thats a smart use of the volumetric buttons -- and once set, you can use any container (or the drip tray) to catch the flushed water without first measuring the desired amount.

    Plumbed in is what the machine is designed to be. Ive streamlined its temporary situation so the cables, pipes and containers arent too obtrusive.

    The spot where it finally has to go, between the kitchen hotplates and wall, wont leave Mrs Robusto much bench space....Well remove all the panels to lighten it as much as pos and lift it in soon, to see how much space it really takes.

    -Robusto

  30. #80
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Fantastic pour Robusto. I only get 100% crema when I use home roasted beans - I assume thats what your were?

  31. #81
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Thats good going Ozscott. A glassful of crema is a much more positive sign that the drink will be good, than staring at black brew.

    But mine may have been largely due to the freshness. :-[

    Yes, the beans were home-roasted, and just three days old. Theres bound to be an over-abundance of crema with beans which havent yet degassed properly -- they release the gas during the extraction.

    That batch (400 grams) is almost depleted, but Ive got another on standby, roasted last Saturday. :P

    It weret all that long ago when 400 grams lasted at least a fortnight ...

    --Robusto

  32. #82
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1173088713/75#80 date=1173672924

    It weret all that long ago when 400 grams lasted at least a fortnight ...

    --Robusto
    Geez.... I dont think Ive ever had 400 grams last a fortnight..... :o

    Ive been roasting two 500 gram batches per week for some time now ::)

  33. #83
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by JavaB link=1173088713/75#81 date=1173674182
    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1173088713/75#80 date=1173672924

    It weret all that long ago when 400 grams lasted at least a fortnight ...

    --Robusto
    Geez.... I dont think Ive ever had 400 grams last a fortnight..... :o

    Ive been roasting two 500 gram batches per week for some time now * ::)
    Thats a lot of caffeine, JavaB! :P
    At, say, a generous 20 grams a shot, youre talking 50 a week, 7 each and every day.
    For two, perhaps?

    --Robusto

  34. #84
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial


    Maybe JavaB is a perfectionist and there are a lot of sink shots. maybe 2 shots to dial it in and one drinking shot....

    I only use about 250 gm per week. But Im the only coffee drinker (apart from the neighbours).

  35. #85
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1173088713/75#82 date=1173682502
    Thats a lot of caffeine, JavaB! :P
    At, say, a generous 20 grams a shot, youre talking 50 a week, 7 each and every day.
    For two, perhaps?

    --Robusto
    Yep, neeeeeed caffeine......

    Well there are three resident coffee drinkers (me being the worst of course) and lots of "blow-ins"....

    So not real hard to go through that much...... but having BeanBay and roast your own probably isnt saving me anything...... consumption has increased far more since using fresh beans - especially in the "blow-in" department.

    Guess they must like the coffee. ;) or maybe they just like the price ::)

  36. #86
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    I love making coffee for guests and I also like the feedback, honest and brutal. Im my harshest critic anyway. If I get it wrong its quite annoying to hear a guest saying that its "nice".

  37. #87
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Yes, Sparky, all that perfection going unappreciated.... casting pearls before those undeserving swine....er..... friends.


    Perhaps you should be charging commercial rates, JavaB, to recoup some of the outlays.
    --Robusto

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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    yep mate - I have noticed that the fresher home roasted - ie in the first 2-3 days produce amazing crema - 100 per centers!

    Cheers

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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    I hope yours have a matching percentile in the taste department, Ozscott. I cant say mine do.... yet.

    But perhaps with more tweaking, more sacrificial beans......

    --Robusto

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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Realising Ive got much more steam available than I could possible use on most daily occasions, Ive screwed down the pressurestat to bring down the boiler temperature.

    Top of boiler is now about 120 degrees. Cooling flushes are nowhere near as long or splattery. Initial readings of the thermouple in the portafilter showed about 94 degrees, but more readings are necessary.

    Im now going to let the machine idle for 30 minutes, and do cooling flushes, measuring quantity against temperature.

    --Robusto

  41. #91
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial


    Ive pulled my pressurestat down to 0.9 bar for the same reason. At 1.1 bar the stream was throwing the milk out of the jug!

    Now for a new pump.....

  42. #92
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Yes, a new pump. That was certainly bad luck, Sparky. Apparently they cant be adequately repaired -- there will always be some bearing noise.

    But your problem is a pump AND motor, correct? That must hurt.

    --Robusto

  43. #93
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial


    Nope. Just the pump. They can be repaired by Procon. However this service is in the US and freight would probably make this option unviable.

    I have quite a few spare motors, so thered need to be a major catastrophe before I hit that problem.

  44. #94
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Procon espresso machine pumps are not repaired, they are gutted and have a set of complete new inards installed into the original body. The original serial number on the body is stamped out and replaced by a new one.

    This is an exchange replacement pump service and because you are essentially providing them with your old pump body into which they place a new pump, the cost is a little less than purchasing a complete new pump ie, save the cost of the body.

    The service is provided in Australia as it is in other parts of the world.

    Procon can only do this with their own bodies, any other brand pump is only good for brass scrap.

  45. #95
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon link=1173088713/90#93 date=1173784815
    Procon espresso machine pumps are not repaired, they are gutted and have a set of complete new inards installed into the original body. The original serial number on the body is stamped out and replaced by a new one.

    This is an exchange replacement pump service and because you are essentially providing them with your old pump body into which they place a new pump, the cost is a little less than purchasing a complete new pump ie, save the cost of the body.

    The service is provided in Australia as it is in other parts of the world.

    Procon can only do this with their own bodies, any other brand pump is only good for brass scrap.
    Thats very interesting. Who does the Procon repair in Australia (I have 3 dead Procon pumps). The cheapest price I can get a Procon pump for is $220 shipped to me. Id prefer to pay less given the amount of brass I have lying around.

    I want to stay with Procon because of the 1/2 NPT threads and the ability to self-prime and draw water from a tank.

    Cheers,

    Mark.

  46. #96
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    I was speaking to Pedro from Coffeeparts yesterday about pressure gauges and the subject of Procon pumps came up.

    He says the difference between a reconditioned and new pump is about $20. He also says there will always be some bearing noise in the remanufactured article because its very difficult to align the bearing properly.

    He might be worth a call.

    --Robusto


  47. #97
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial


    I bit the bullet and ordered a new pump from Coffeeparts. Even with shipping the price was still better than I could get around here. So maybe tomorrow night I will fire up the beast once more...

  48. #98
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Sometimes, the most expensive course is also the most direct. Looking forward to the the outcome. (This comes from someone who took his pressure gauge apart some 6 times at least, and still could not bring himself to pronounce it dead, then used a wire twist tie to resurrect it)

    -Robusto

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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1173088713/90#95 date=1173820133
    there will always be some bearing noise in the remanufactured article because its very difficult to align the bearing properly.
    This may well be so but remember that is only talking about the pump by itself. Consider that different machines sound different in toto while theyre running, due to however many different variables including vibrations etc. so this has to be taken in context.

    I can tell you IME it han never happened that we have fitted an exchange remanufactured procon pump and ever worried about its noise or performance. As far as we are concerned, its like fitting any brand new pump. It either works, or ir doesnt, and it either sounds "normal" or within normal limits, or it doesnt.

    In addition, it is not uncommon to fit brand new pumps and find they make a noise in any case..... so which is likely to be noisier, a brand new pump or a newly remanufactured exchange procon pump????????????? Better get out the probability tables & start calculating standard deviations and asking for a decibel level spec. hehe.

    So personally, I dont think this is any kind of significant issue and should be laid to rest before...we end up with an avalanche of people buying new or remanufactured pumps, asking questions about "bearing (or other) noise" and making the choice dependent upon insignificant details.

    If I need a replacement pump and have a seized procon that can be used as an "exchange" and save $30.00 into the bargain, I do it every time.

    Regards,
    FC.

  50. #100
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    Re: Upgraditis: 2-group Grimac Commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by robusto link=1173088713/90#95 date=1173820133
    He also says there will always be some bearing noise in the remanufactured article because its very difficult to align the bearing properly.
    Notwithstanding the good advice offered by FC, it might be worth the effort Sparky (since you have several "spare" pumps on hand) to canvas the various bearing specialist stores and try to get hold of a suitable "Self Aligning Bearing" for this type of duty. Would have to be a whole lot cheaper than buying new pumps and then at least, you would have a supply of known good pumps from which to draw on should the need arise :). Seems like a worthwhile thing to do...

    Mal.

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