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Thread: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

  1. #51
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Sorry about the double up.

    I now know what one is. No it doesnt have a mercury switch.

  2. #52
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Bit of an update:

    Put a few panels back on so I could see were the wires ran and to figure out what I would need to do to change switches and take out the timers.

    There was a bridge on the element that I removed so only 2 of the 3 elements are used.
    I only removed one timer(in case what I was doing was wrong) and cut what ever wire was connected to it. I also changed the power cable and plug from 20a to 15a. When I was removing the 20a plug I saw the Active and Neutral were opposite to what they normally are. :o I dont know enough about the electrical stuff to understand the reasoning for this, so I decided to wire the 15a plug as described on the packet. ;) The rest of the wiring was connected the way it come.

    Last night was the moment of truth. I purchased a water filter from Coffee Parts the other day and plumbed it up to my rainwater tank, its not plumbed to the machine just to a tap in the shed for the moment. I filled the boiler to the MIN level and then plumbed in the pump and water tank. Good to go :D

    Plugged to the power, gave the machine a quick glance, and flicked the switch.......the shed was in total darkness. >:( Bugger....found the torch and turned on the RCD....had a bit of a look over the machine but everything looked ok :-/ unplugged pump may have overloaded RCD?

    Turn on power take 2:
    Darkness again >:( >:( ....remembered about the plug A and N were opposite so if I switch A and N at the junction it should be right :)..Flicked RCD back on.
    [img][/img]

    Turn on power take 3:
    Darkness yet again >:( >:( >:( not happy jan... disconnected everything bar pressurestat and element...RCD back on.

    Turn on power take 4:
    :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

    What is going on? Is the element shagged? I would like to try as many things as possible before I call a sparky, so any ideas or directions will be greatly appreciated.

    cheers
    Jaymad



  3. #53
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    As it was tripping the RCD and not the circuit breaker you have an earth leakage fault. That is from active to earth (assuming the wiring is correct ;) ). The simple way to check this if it is an obvious insulation problem with the element is with a $10 multimeter. If your lucky with this you may find just one leg of the 3 elements is dead (fingers crossed).

    Procedure. Disconnect all wires to the element. Select Ohms or Resistance on the meter (lowest range) place one of the probes on the metal surround of the element and one by one go round the 6 terminals to see if their is a circuit. If you get one then that leg is dead.

    good luck and depending on what your up to Wednesday I might be able to drop over for a look if your still stuck.

  4. #54
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Ok BF cheers mate.

  5. #55
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Good news the elements ok. All three legs are good:) :) :) however my multimeter isnt. I was following the procedure you gave me BF but wasnt getting any result, I couldnt make sense of what it was or wasnt reading. A quick trip to FILs to try his and make sure....presto....happy days.

    What do you think I should try next?

  6. #56
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Just to 100% eliminate the element carefully isolate the wires that did connect to it by wrapping them separately in electrical tape (tempory measure only) then turn the machine on again. If the RCD doesnt trip then you most likely have one or more element legs that are breaking down under load and causing the earth leakage. If the RCD trips when the element is disconnected like this then your wiring elsewhere is wrong ;)

  7. #57
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    It didnt trip. :)

    I have another theory. Is it possible the element may have some residual metal over the insulators after the citric acid bath?

  8. #58
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Providing you rinsed all the bits after the Citric acid bath it shouldnt be anything like that, if you didnt rinse properly you may have effectively created a salt bath which may carry enough residual current to trip the RCD ?

    More likely the thing to do now is connecting one element pair at a time see if it is just one of the three that causes the RCD to trip. I suspect this is more likely.

    Oh and play safe (to late I know by now) water and lectrickity is not good :o

  9. #59
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    You guys worry teh hell out of me..





  10. #60
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Safe so far AM. ;)

    All the legs tripped the RCD. :-/ I checked the junction with the multimeter but thats ok. I checked around the insulators again, same, ok. Im lost.

  11. #61
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Without sighting it to test myself thats about it for easy fault finding thoughts my end. I am home till midday tomorrow if you want to bring the beast for a drive? Drop me a PM if you want.

  12. #62
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Quote Originally Posted by 4B5D4A58454E414A2F0 link=1219929823/59#59 date=1272103144
    Safe so far AM. ;)

    All the legs tripped the RCD. *:-/ *I checked the junction with the multimeter but thats ok. I checked around the insulators again, same, ok. Im lost.

    Not sure what ya saying ?

    In addition if ant links are in place that will cause issues..

    Have a quick look here.. http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1265274280/4#4

    ALWAYS test and check with the unit unplugged and the GPO OFF.



  13. #63
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Megger would nice but the old hand cranked one I had died years ago and now I am out of the pump business I never replaced it.

    Other obvious thing is drop the element out of your second one I suppose :-/

  14. #64
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Interesting info AM.

    Definitely been unplugging the machine. Dont know what GPO means.

    I will organize a megga test.

    The way I read it a megga still needs to check each leg of the element, so if one leg is earthed by a fault the others should still megga ok therefore powering one leg at a time should indicate the same thing assuming the RCD picks it up? Or have I got it completely wrong? :-[



  15. #65
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    yeah BF I was thinking that. If Im going to get one done may as well be both. If I was at work there would be no worries.

  16. #66
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    What a megger does is see if the insulation is breaking down *at higher voltages much the same as the multimeter does but at normally 500V instead of mV. As you were powering up one leg at a time it is possible the element is totally stuffed on all 3 as you are thinking (according to your RCD) but if you know a Sparky that has one or a motor rewinder in town they should be able to do it for you.

    GPO = General Purpose Outlet or Powerpoint ;)

  17. #67
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Thanks mate. Hopefully I can catchup with one Teusday.

    Just pulled the other one out and giving it a bath. looked much cleaner than the first element.

  18. #68
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Try taking it to somewhere that rebuilds heating elements. They will be able to test it for you quickly and tell you if there is any problem.

  19. #69
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Just had both elements megger tested by a sparky and all legs on both elements earthed out. told the sparky what they are for and what I did to clean them. He seems to think they may have absorbed moisture. SO now they are in the oven baking. I will get them retested tomorrow and if no change will buy a new one. >:(

  20. #70
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    :( dissapointing sorry I hadnt tried them my end before you got them. Might need to arrange to buy one myself depending on how tomorrow goes.

  21. #71
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Quote Originally Posted by 2C3A2D3F2229262D480 link=1219929823/68#68 date=1272333167
    Just had both elements megger tested by a sparky and all legs on both elements earthed out. told the sparky what they are for and what I did to clean them. He seems to think they may have absorbed moisture. SO now they are in the oven baking. I will get them retested tomorrow and if no change will buy a new one. >:(
    Never immerse the terminals or the ceramic ends of an element.. *One chance and that is not good.... Never CHIP or scrape stuff off an element....*Get ready to spend $$$


    When elements are in good condition the sheath seals out moisture etc... *As they get old and worn and pitted :-) *Then with expansion and contraction of the sheath and fractures etc the insulating clay / material will suck moisture in :-)... Opps that is a :-(

    Thus a machine may test OK and be running; but after a clean de-scale will fail as you have now exposed more material or cleaned off scale that may have been blocking the transfer of moisture.

    Then if you use distilled water or ultra pure... It will cause even more pitting (no scale) and hasten the demise of ya element/s.....

    Good quality water / regular maintenance will see ya elements last for a long time.. *Miss treat and just sit back and take a number.


  22. #72
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    No need to be sorry BF its the nature of the beast, besides there is still a glimmer of hope drying them out. All legs on both elements just seems odd to me.

  23. #73
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    So are you saying they are cactus AM, put in an order for a new one?

  24. #74
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Coffeeparts has them at $105 so at least they wont break the bank and a lot cheaper than some other 2 group ones. Just a pain I guess to have to wait for a new one.

    Got a bloke I know in town with a megger so I will check mine tomorrow when I get it out of the boiler.

  25. #75
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Good luck BF.

    Once the elements cooled I tested the resistance on each leg and to my surprise I got nothing. :-[ I have completely f!@$#d the two elements :( :( :( Coffee Parts order has been made. I am very disappointed with what I have done, all I needed to do was ask first or do a bit more research(lesson for me and other potential restorers).

    I am busting to see this thing run.


  26. #76
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Jaymad, dont feel bad mate I did the same thing on my rebuild. It happens... we are not pros at this, just interested people on a learning curve.

    I descaled mine, got it bead blasted by AM and it looks a 100% on the black filth that was on there. Problem is that the crud was insulating the problem as AM said above. I tried the oven trick, 75oC all day and it never tested right using my multimeter. Just bought a new one $90 and if I ever find a local electrical to look over my wiring I will get them to test it with a megger, you never know I might end up with a spare.

    Enjoying your progress, just stay safe! Lacehim ;)

  27. #77
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    yeah cheers Lacehim. I reckon once I get my hot little hands on that new element all will be forgotten. :)

  28. #78
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Another drying out trick, is to connect two car batteries in series to obtain 24V DC and then connect the element(s) to this. 10% load current over several hours does a pretty fair job of drying things out but little or no stress on the electro-mechanical condition of the elements.

    Mal.

  29. #79
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Quote Originally Posted by 7F697E6C717A757E1B0 link=1219929823/76#76 date=1272361536
    yeah cheers Lacehim. I reckon once I get my hot little hands on that new element all will be forgotten. :)
    I am a bit far to do some testing for ya... Sorry

    Quote Originally Posted by 577A787E7372761B0 link=1219929823/75#75 date=1272359934
    *I tried the oven trick, 75oC all day and it never tested right using my multimeter.
    Just drop it in the next time ya down this way and I will put a mega on it / them.


    DO NOT EVER ... EVER put 110 or 240 V *directly on an element that is testing faulty or has had water in it... *The moisture will boil and cause all sorts of NASTY eruptions..

    Edited for clarity:

    As Mal said 24V DC over time may assist... But unless it is due to just sitting around; moisture and insulation breaches are saying something... *




    Insulation breakdown means "There is a Problem" *and covering it up / quick fixes are not the best answer and may just be a trouble shooting guide...


  30. #80
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Would never suggest "covering up" a problem AM.... :o

    Have rescued many an element this way going back to the 60s but before connecting, it should be inspected and tested by a sparky. Once meggered (while still warm) and found to be serviceable, the ends should be resealed with a high temp varnish or glaze. This used to be the method of preference in days gone by, when everyone had time and the wherewithal to do these sorts of jobs.... ::)

    Mal.

  31. #81
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Quote Originally Posted by 634E4A464B270 link=1219929823/79#79 date=1272366166
    Would never suggest "covering up" a problem AM.... :o

    Have rescued many an element this way going back to the 60s but before connecting, it should be inspected and tested by a sparky. Once meggered (while still warm) and found to be serviceable, the ends should be resealed with a high temp varnish or glaze. This used to be the method of preference in days gone by, when everyone had time and the wherewithal to do these sorts of jobs.... ::)

    Mal.
    Sorry... Mal just my usual dyslexa kicking in and the way it reads... ;D

    Yes... In teh OLD days... We did many things with elements that came off the shelf or from storage and failed.

    AS3760 is also very specific as to the Insulation test values as to at what level they support / indicate that drying out or other methods etc may be acceptable OR what should just be binned without wasting time. In good condition >1M as per most Household items...

    Medical is >10M or even >20M depending on local circumstances and covered under AS3551.


    An element that uses a clay type insulator that measures >100K but <1M can undergo some extra work to see that it comes up to spec. Further more, follow up testing must demonstrate that it is >1M... If it is less than <100K the standard infers that it is too risky... This is due to the amount of current leakage and thus implying a significant breakdown.

    All other heating elements types must be >1M at the start and when in use.


    I have seen items off the shelf that have been sitting for years... Come good... Even when much lower than 100K. However, I have yet to ever see a system that has failed in use and measure < 1M ever be recovered.... Other than where external causes around the terminals, has been involved.


  32. #82
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Quote Originally Posted by 446B62607748646B64626068606B71050 link=1219929823/80#80 date=1272370103
    However, I have yet to ever see a system that has failed in use and measure < 1M ever be recovered.... * Other than where external causes around the terminals, has been involved.
    Yep, quite correct mate. Anything that fails "In Service" would normally be tossed, as you describe....

    Mal.

  33. #83
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Well, what a difference a few days can make.

    SHES ALIVE !!!

    I received the new element from Coffee Parts the other day. Initially I was concerned about the size of it but after talking to Atillio I was soon put at ease. The original element is 4500w which I was going to reduce to 3000w by dropping one of the legs keeping the machine to a 15a supply. The new one is 3000w but it is considerably smaller in size so I was there may be issues with the water in the boiler getting cold/ hot spots.

    [img][/img]
    I wacked it in, wired it up, put some water in the boiler and with squinting eyes I flicked the switch.....

    YeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaa the power stayed on, the element clicked on and the pump started. :) :) :)

    I sat there and watched it for about 5-10 minutes when I noticed the boiler was full but the pump was still running(by the way how quiet are those rotary pumps, awesome) I touched the pump and it was getting quite warm so I thought might be a good time to start playing with the knobs and switches. I flicked the GH switch on and the CB tripped :( then every time I turned the power on the CB tripped. There are 3 wires going to the GHs from the junction, I removed them so I could at least heat the boiler up and check for leaks. It didnt take long as soon as the water started to bubble there were a few of leaks, one from a cracked fitting and two from copper washers not seated properly. :-[

    Once everything sealed I was finally able to watch her heat up to test the pressure stat and gauge...which worked as I had hoped. I also checked the steam and water arms. Remembering that the steam arms were setup differently(those 2 little bits that were mention earlier ) I was curious to see if there would be a noticeable difference in steam output. Was there ever. One could be described as the power of a stallion galloping at full noise while the other a .................Sunbeam. ;D ;D ;D

    The electrics for the GHs I am slowly working out thanks to BF. Im removing the timers so the wiring has to be changed a little. At the moment I can get the GHs to operate as they should however I need a couple of relays to counteract the manual fill also operating the GHs.
    Also I would like to have some sort of pre-infusion which can be done by opening the solenoid without the pump running, but Im not sure how effective this would be. :-/

    There is light at the end of the tunnel.

    cheers
    Jaymad









  34. #84
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    I may have been a little premature with removing the timers. I am hoping I can use the timers for preinfusion or use the relays out of them to fix the manual fill problem.

    Any comments welcome.


    [img][/img]
    [img][/img]

    cheers
    jaymad




  35. #85
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Progressing :)

    The relays have plenty of spare contacts to use to run the pump from the group switches. With a look at the two timers (assuming they both work well) and relays I could come up with a circuit to give you a short pump burst (timer 1) this then triggers a short delay (timer 2) activated initially by the group switch to start and manually finish. Set both to 0 for no preinfusion and a straight shot.

  36. #86
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    mmmm........interesting concept BF. 8-) Would you be able to use both groups at the same time or even run group 2 after timer 1 has reset after group 1 preinfusion? :-/

  37. #87
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    More timers needed in that case or a different arrangement, for a price all things are possible including turning it into a Synesso for about $10k ;D

  38. #88
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    I like the Synesso idea, wouldnt that make the chief happy. ;D

    I will have a crack at wiring up the timers tomorrow for the pump delay and to see if they work. ::)

  39. #89
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Update

    1 timer didnt work so the timer infusion idea has been aborted, however the relays are good so they can be used. :) Im still not sure what will fill the hole where the timer switch was, probably a SS plate. Perhaps a few of those coffee bean lapels....would give her a bit of bling. I will use the timer covers they have the bracket that hold the relays and they will also cover the wiring to the switches. Im trying electrolysis cleaning on the covers, after seeing Lacehims efforts on his frame, they should clean up alright. ;)

    I have put in a power switch with a light which should be a handy indicator, particularly for the kids to stay away from the machine and a reminder for me to turn it off.

    I will post some more photos once the covers are clean.

    Cheers

    Jaymad

  40. #90
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    How you going with this jaymad? Any photos?

  41. #91
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Update:

    I have been a bit slack with this machine lately especially after getting the new toy, but not much more to do. The panels have some surface rust that needs to be cleaned off so I will probably take them to get blasted then a paint job. The original colour does appeal to me so I will try to keep it as close as possible when I paint it. Then the SS to get a polish.

    The electrolysis cleaning didnt work the way I had hoped so it was back to the wet and dry paper. The covers came up alright but the dirty panels dont help in the pics.
    [img][img][/img][/img][img][/img]







  42. #92
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Hi Im new to this I have been reading about your rebuild I have bought a Z9RE 1978 model which I am in the process of rebuilding. I am totally impressed with what I have seen on this thread hope you dont mind me
    asking a few questions. and may I place a pic of my machine on this thread as it is not the same as the previous two.
    Thanks Stanlet

  43. #93
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Go for your life Stanley, I hope I can help.

  44. #94
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Quote Originally Posted by 786E796B767D72791C0 link=1219929823/90#90 date=1275639146
    The electrolysis cleaning didnt work the way I had hoped so it was back to the wet and dry paper. The covers came up alright but the dirty panels dont help in the pics.
    I came to the same conclusion Jaymad. It worked wonders for rust removal without any damage to good metal. I would use it again for that.

    Ive read about folk using this method for cleaning complete engine blocks but I found it didnt work for me when trying to remove scale etc from machine parts.

    Any progress or is the new toy still taking all your time :)

  45. #95
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    No progress really. I went to a sanblasting place in town only to find out it has shut shop, but have since been told about another that I was unaware of so I will check them out tomorrow. It is just a case of pulling my finger out. :-[

  46. #96
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    The Tour is over tonight so back to it ;D Back to mine next month during my winter break.

  47. #97
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Hi
    I will try to post pic. I have just finished stripping the Z9 and sand blasted the chassis and will be spraying it with a 2K automotive paint thanks for allowing, My boiler is different it has 2 aluminum rings that clamp the boiler together one is split in half and has 13 bolts holding all together. they were so corroded I had to brake them off to open the boiler. If I sand blast in the boiler to clean all scale of would it be advisable?


  48. #98
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Quote Originally Posted by 60796A7D6B7D66796A363E3A0F0 link=1219929823/96#96 date=1280051077
    If I sand blast in the boiler to clean all scale of would it be advisable?
    I would not advise that Stanley. Some others may have tried it and can give their opinion, for me citric acid bath or an activated descaler bath.

  49. #99
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    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    If I sand blast in the boiler to clean all scale of would it be advisable?
    Sandblasting is very abrasive combine that with the logistics of hitting the boiler wall at the correct angle and I reckon there wont be much boiler wall left in places. Having said that I should qualify it by saying the sandblaster at work is used on machinery and is very powerful, there may be others more suitable, maybe. I have heard of plastic bead blasting but dont know much about it. As jaymad suggests just dunk it.

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    7

    Re: Rancilio Z9 Rebuild lots of work needed

    Thanks for the info will try acid first then if that does not work I will bead blast. small update on progress blasted chassis yesterday and sprayed then baked and reassembled chassis doesnt look to shabby.






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