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Thread: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

  1. #1
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    Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    Hi cser just wanted to find other alternative to plumb in
    a machine e.g 20ltr bottle water ??? ive read different article stating yes and no.

    Some also recommend buying a jetflo pump.

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    Coffee Nut fg1972's Avatar
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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    I cant see why not.
    Others may have a different opinion though.

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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    No problem, if the machine has an autofill circuit which runs the pump when needed. There were a great many espresso machines at MICE last weekend doing just that in what is essentially an oversized tent.

    A one way valve on the hose that is in the water reservoir will prevent the water draining out of the lines and keep the pump drawing properly.

    Youll also have to make an adjustment to the pump bleed screw, as the mains pressure provides a baseline 2-3 bar for extraction.

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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    I am also considering doing this: I have several commercial levers and now an e61 machine that I need to be able to test. The lever machines do not require a pump- but water should be delivered to them at more than 2 Bar of pressure. Is there an off the shelf product that can suit? or can anyone point me to more information?

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    Quote Originally Posted by 253924243338223F3837353930303333560 link=1336561827/3#3 date=1336622598
    Is there an off the shelf product that can suit?
    There is but I cannot think of its name at the moment.

    It might have been Genovese that used one at a trade show I was at a few years ago (Im seeing dark red), it was some sort of flow switch that turned a watertank mounted pump on when water was drawn.

    Not much help except to let you know they do exist so you can continue looking.
    ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by 343F3134233A3A2F560 link=1336561827/0#0 date=1336561827
    20ltr bottle water ???
    Most good rotary pumps that Ive used will happily draw from a "neverfail" water bottle under the table at an outdoor event. From memory they all would have been fairly standard procon commercial pumps and the only problem I ever had was on an old Beoma that didnt know the boiler was full because the water was too clean... I added some tap water to the container and it was happy or the rest of the day.

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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    Flojet in the states, but there is a local product available. Ill try to dig up some info tomorrow.

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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    I talked to a couple of sponsers today and wayne the technician from coffee roaster australia comfirmed to me that the izzo alex duette ii was fine to run it off a bottle of water and did not require a flojet pump and just needed a one way valve also stated by rick.
    thanks chris from talk coffee and everyone here for pointing me in the right direction. Saved me some BIG $$$ from investing in a jetflo i didnt need ;D ;D ;D

    Louis :)

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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    Quote Originally Posted by 747F7174637A7A6F160 link=1336561827/6#6 date=1336650536
    I talked to a couple of sponsers today and wayne the technician from coffee roaster australia comfirmed to me that the izzo alex duette ii was fine to run it off a bottle of water and did not require a flojet pump and just needed a one way valve also stated by rick.
    thanks chris from talk coffee and everyone here for pointing me in the right direction. Saved me some BIG $$$ from investing in a jetflo i didnt need ;D ;D ;D

    Louis :)
    Love how we can all work as a team to get a great outcome!* 8-)

    One thing I mentioned to Louis is that at home, we need to keep fresh water in mind. Although a big container of water might be convenient, it will also become somewhat "flat" before its all consumed.

    I guess its all a matter of finding the right balance ;)

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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    That very true Chris, just check on the brita web site today and they recommend 48hr on filter water before it goes flat... :)

    Thanks for the tips Chris will make sure i find the perfect balance. At this stage i mite not even need a bottle of water i think the tank itself mite do just fine and just have a empty bottle for the drip tray.

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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    I have some more questions guys: I have an RO water filter system that I use for drinking water at home.

    I need to set up flojet type water supply for my various commercial machines. The Levers need the water to be delivered to them at 1.6 BAR or higher pressure. Not sure about the Faema e61? Can anyone point to me to a Sponsor who could put together a mobile bottle and pump system to suit me?

    If possible I would like to incorporate my RO filter system.... otherwise I will just use it to fill my bottles.

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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    Quote Originally Posted by 776B7676616A706D6A65676B62626161040 link=1336561827/9#9 date=1336710150
    I have some more questions guys: I have an RO water filter system that I use for drinking water at home.

    I need to set up flojet type water supply for my various commercial machines. The Levers need the water to be delivered to them at 1.6 BAR or higher pressure. Not sure about the Faema e61? Can anyone point to me to a Sponsor who could put together a mobile bottle and pump system to suit me?

    If possible I would like to incorporate my RO filter system.... otherwise I will just use it to fill my bottles.
    Hi Jack,

    You will need to remineralise that RO...

    Your faema will have a pump, so you could run from a large bottle with a non-return valve fitted to the inlet. Normally, mains pressure would be controlled by a 350 kPa PLV. This wont be required if running from a container. You will need to adjust the bypass on the pump to deliver 9 bar at the group regardless of the water source.

    My levers are connected to a filter and PLV and are happy with 3.5bar.

    Chris

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    Quote Originally Posted by 445845455259435E5956545851515252370 link=1336561827/9#9 date=1336710150
    Can anyone point to me to a Sponsor who could put together a mobile bottle and pump system to suit me?
    First place I would call is 9Bar Espresso
    ...they have an office in Adelaide so also close to you too.

    9Bar
    113 Melbourne St,
    North Adelaide.

    Give Bill a call on 0400 160 336

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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    thanks Chris and Andy- I will call 9bar- have been meaning to check them out for ages anyway so its time...

    Chris- why are minerals important for espresso? Genuinely curious. I have been filling my Ponte Vecchio with filtered water from the RO system and it seems OK- I didnt notice any problem. I have heard some people think RO water is bad because it is so pure: purer than water found in nature. But I have heard others say that if that was true rain water would be bad for humans- and it isnt so RO water is OK too.... I didnt read beyond that point and just kept drinking the RO water- which is great as far as I can tell.

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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    Water, in its purest form, is a solvent, it binds with everything, including leeching the metals out of your boiler.

    while its unlikely that your RO has done damage in the short time youve used it, Over time you are likely to end up with a boiler that has been compromised because various compounds in the alloy have been leached out quicker then others leaving little pinholes and microcracks. :-/


    Quote Originally Posted by 465A4747505B415C5B54565A53535050350 link=1336561827/12#12 date=1336723822
    thanks Chris and Andy- I will call 9bar- have been meaning to check them out for ages anyway so its time...

    Chris- why are minerals important for espresso? Genuinely curious. I have been filling my Ponte Vecchio with filtered water from the RO system and it seems OK- I didnt notice any problem. I have heard some people think RO water is bad because it is so pure: purer than water found in nature. But I have heard others say that if that was true rain water would be bad for humans- and it isnt so RO water is OK too.... I didnt read beyond that point and just kept drinking the RO water- which is great as far as I can tell.

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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    Quote Originally Posted by 6A766B6B7C776D7077787A767F7F7C7C190 link=1336561827/12#12 date=1336723822
    Chris- why are minerals important for espresso? Genuinely curious. I have been filling my Ponte Vecchio with filtered water from the RO system and it seems OK- I didnt notice any problem. I have heard some people think RO water is bad because it is so pure..
    Gday Jack. Machines with autofill circuits rely on conductivity of water via dissolved solids or ionic content. Apart from the comments above, we see overfills and other faults with RO.

    Chris



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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    Ok- so a lower level of filtration is OK for an espresso machine? Part of the problem here in SA the water is notoriously terrible.

    I guess what I want to set up is a large (20 liter?) bottle- with a suitable filter, and a sureflo type pump...

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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    Probably going to be a victim yet again of not reading all the above preamble in detail first, but I dont understand what the "problem" is.

    As I see it, and given you want to supply out of a container, the simplest and easiest way to attack this is:

    a) buy a suitable (for your location) triple action water filter with "head unit" (as in wall bracket). The filters come rated for different volumes of throughput, but if you are going to use this in an "ad hoc or home use type way, or even at work but where it is going to get very little use (non cafe volume), the smallest will probably suffice.

    b) fit this up with a quick connect system to any tap around the place even an external one, where you are simply going to fill your 20 litre container from. Its virtually just a portable short hose set up with an in line water filter, the outgoing end (from the filter) is the end you fill your container with.*

    c) adjust the machines own water pump to draw from the container.

    d) whalla, jobs done.

    e) Call site sponsor Bombora whose core business is water filtration/conditioning, tell them your location, discuss your idea, they will send you a simple, suitable solution.

    f) Simply keep an eye on the volume of water flowing through your system ( easy when you are filling 20 litre containers, just keep a count on a clip board above the tap), and change the filters accordingly or before.

    g) dont fall into the trap of thinking you need to double up or go to bigger ("better"?) filters....when all you have to do if you are concerned about your water quality is change the filter cartridges more often than specified.

    h) oh make sure your container is made from material suitable for potable water....

    i) and yes, I do exactly the same thing at my cupping station next to the roaster, because we do not have a water connection near that part of our roasting plant. If I was at work, Id take a picha! Its as simple as.....* ;)

    Hope that helps you out Jack.

    Attilio
    very first CS site sponsor

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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    Oils aint oils...

    The quality of RO product water depends on the quality of the feed water, input pressure, temperature, differential pressure across the RO membrane, the membrane itself...

    If your feedwater has a TDS (total dissolved solids) content of 100 ppm then you may expect the product water to be around 5 - 10 ppm dependent on the factors above.* And it may be argued this is good or bad for making coffee.* However if your feed water is 1000 ppm then your product may be 50 - 100 ppm.* Which is no better than the feed water in the first case.*

    RO water produced in say Tassie is likely to be a lot purer than RO water produced in WA or SA ignoring the other factors.* You cant simply say RO is good or bad without considering the actual quality of the water.

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    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    Quote Originally Posted by 2C242F3E25282A254B0 link=1336561827/18#18 date=1337841662
    GRB,* while* your post appears plausible at first glance, you (like me) are a relative noob.* It certainly seems to contradict the information supplied by chris above and many times in the past.

    Who do you think most people will trust? Chris,who has helped countless people over the years, or you who just blew in from who knows where?

    Personally I would trust whomever comes across as reasonable and well-informed. Judging someones coffee knowledge by the number of CS posts alone would seem to be somewhat shortsighted and limiting at best.

    BTW... as someone with only 12 posts under your belt and who "...just blew in from who knows where" themselves you may wish to be a bit more careful with such heavy handed and dismissive comments

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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    Quote Originally Posted by 150010520 link=1336561827/17#17 date=1337783951
    However if your feed water is 1000 ppm then....
    .....you better find a knife ;D

    No way would I be using that in espresso equipment or trying to turn it into water...Send it to the dead sea instead....

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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    ...GoD you make me laugh.* Thanks.





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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: Can rotary pump draw from a non pressurized source

    ...and now Ill lock this thread before it turns nast(y)(ier)

    Play nice kiddies.

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    Hi all. I came across this old thread and find it useful. I have a question though. Is it safe to run a machine filter between the water bottle and the machine? I have a brand new filter so I imagine there'd be air in it. I cant fill it with water because I havent got access to a water line. Would it cause pump cavitation if I just plug it in? Or even worse to burn out the heating element? I have a BWT bestprotectv and a Wega mininova rotary pump. Thanks all in advance.

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