My BS detectors been running red hot on Coffee Snobs over the past few weeks, have never seen so much overtly commercial content in the past.
Last edited by Yelta; 18th April 2016 at 09:44 AM.
Rocket R58 or Profitec 700 or New ECM Dual 75 PID; So Many Questions???
By "best" I mean - put the $ in my hand and what will I buy. It's that simple.
As I said, I sell all 3 so consider myself neutral.
I don't doubt that others will have other opinions. Share them
Last edited by kbc; 18th April 2016 at 10:06 AM.
I'm sure the Rocket is an awesome machine; if I'd been buying six months ago I'd quite likely have ended up with one and been perfectly happy with it...
Originally Posted by dumiya
I think an earlier post summed it up - at this price point, all are very good machines and the pros and cons are fairly minor and largely come down to personal taste. I'll no doubt find things about the ECM to criticise over time, but at the very least I prefer the design over the others which is reason enough for me... after all, I'm spending my own money
And that's it in a nutshell. There is no best. There is only what's right for you.
We don't sell any bests. We are however pretty good at helping clients match themselves to right- even if it means referring them elsewhere.
My previous post notwithstanding, one question I'll almost always ask when spending a bit of cash at a retailer is "which one would you buy yourself?", even if I've already made a decision.
Really? You must be new here... ;p
Originally Posted by Yelta
Guess I may as well weigh in.
I consider my 7 year old Bezzera Domus Galatea the best machine on the market, why I hear you ask, while politely covering a a little laugh with your hand.
Well I'll tell ya, not because it has a built in gravitational wave detector, synchrotron, elliptical steam and water valves with hand turned Jumbo wood handles, none of this stuff, its a simple well made good looking single boiler E61 machine.
It's because the thing has performed faultlessly for almost 7 years, it has provided me with daily shots of coffee that rival the best available commercially, it has dispensed shots, made Lungo's and steamed milk without so much as a hiccup, all this for a touch over a dollar a day.
However to summerise, I love this machine because it makes incredibly awesome coffee, most of em god shots, with a minimum of fuss.
Last edited by Yelta; 18th April 2016 at 09:38 PM.
Well you wouldn't be happy at our place then, as my response would be "That's irrelevant. I don't have to live with it, you do. Weigh up the pros and cons as I have pointed them out to you and then you will have the right machine for you."
Originally Posted by Magic_Matt
Now I see exactly where you are coming from. You are getting regular god shots from a reliable 7 y/o HX.
Originally Posted by Yelta
That is Awesome !!!
Awesome perhaps, unusual! nope.
Nah, I'd be more'n happy with that response in context - the goal isn't to outsource the decision or buy the same machine, but to have a discussion about the relative merits of the various options. It's not the only way to have that discussion, but I generally find it leads to interesting conversations.
Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee
I wonder what the OP went with in the end...
If he has been reading this remarkable thread - a kettle and a teapot would be my guess!
I have recovered from buyers remorse - I think!
Hopefully it's just the ..um... the exuberance of ...um... "youth"??
Originally Posted by Yelta
Might have to start pm'ing friendly advice so it doesn't get "bombed" alphabetically by "someone else"??
Last edited by chokkidog; 19th April 2016 at 05:16 PM.
As they say in diplomatic circles,
Originally Posted by chokkidog
A meaningful dialogue has been established.
When I started this tread I would have never of thought I would be still reading it with such intent 4 months later; it definitely has created some great reading but more importantly some quite passionate discussion.
To fill everyone in, I did become quite enthralled in researching, reading and looking at the ins and outs of all machines but was difficult to compare due to the ECM not being available for viewing until MICE last month.
So now I have seen, touched and felt all machines, guess which one I have ended up with....... None as yet!!!
- R58 = Has the looks and the terrific Rocket branding (like an iPhone), it's one awesome looking machine
- Profitec 700 = Proven good all rounder with adjustability and quality build
- ECM synchronika = The new kid on the block with the bells and whistles and German procession
To be honest I think I would be happy with any of them.
My unfortunate position is I'm more interested in getting this machine then the chief of finance and this has some how slipped down the priority list.
If I had to pick one at the moment it would be the ECM but this decision could be easily swayed on a good deal on any of the above machines.
Anyway I'll provide an update when I make the purchase..... Hopefully sooner rather then later.
Thanks to all for their input on this thread.
Great thread. It really got some momentum. And it's still going
I will be back in Hawaii in 2 months after living in Asia these past few years
I am 99% sure I am going with Linea Mini when I get home but this ECM Synchronika is the only other
I am considering...Appears to have great build quality...A good sized steam boiler albeit @ 2Liter near half the size of the mini's 3.5L Steam boiler
Waiting to hear more feedback as it has not been released in US yet.
But a beautifully built machine
Understand that sponsorship is what keeps the forum going, but would be nice to keep the commercial stuff mostly in the commercial threads instead of turning every discussion into a promotion...
Yep, I agree, gets pretty annoying after a while, only a relatively recent phenomena.
Originally Posted by evro50
Yes- it is clearly stated in http://coffeesnobs.com.au/coffee-har...tml#post473070 and a little balance is important. I reckon that the mod team have applied plenty of honeymoon period slack and I know for a fact that we'd be pulled up on it.
Suggest that social networking and your website are great ways that those interested can receive your info as to stocks and availability as thick and fast as they desire...
When the feather becomes the whole chook it's no longer fun...
Last edited by TC; 8th May 2016 at 01:35 PM.
Suggest you take it up with site management Paul, this is not a topic for open forum.
Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee
Chris's comments are valid, time to back off.
As per forum rules
"No Commercial Posts in
* Forum Posts"
+1 on Chris' comments. We come here for independent advice not a sales pitch
Paul even this is beating your drum, enough is enough.
Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee
I didn't mean to get on a high horse, relatively new member after all. Input from sponsors is very much appreciated since you guys know more than most I think you'll find giving information/positing in discussions is great marketing on its own, I know it's worked on me on several occasions!!
Cheer up guys, everyone here is passionate about coffee and we are here to help each other. As b(Paul) mentioned, the transition from member to sponsor isn't easy and he's obviously still finding his feet on that front and where the limitations lie, I'm sure this sort of stuff is a discussion to have with Andy and the mods to figure out what is right and wrong and have future interactions within the forum based on that.
But let's not step on b, he's having a go and trying to get his business going, so I understand his enthusiasm. He's put himself and his wallet forward as a sponsor, not just doing sales on the sly to members poaching via PM or anything and that is a tick in my book. At the end of the day, sponsors help keep the forum running.
Jusy my second crack, we are all here to help each other guys.
insert group hug here.
Yeah, I didn't really think Paul was out of line or blatantly pushing a commercial agenda here. There's been a few testy posts in this thread about totally subjective things and I think everyone here has been transparent in their dealings. Sure Paul might be enthusiastic given his business is new and it's taken a bit of time to find the right balance but I think calling him out in this thread has been pretty harsh. If Andy or the mods have an issue with Paul, I'm sure they'll discuss it privately with him. Let's get back to talking about what we're all passionate about - coffee.
Ok, just to deviate back on topic.....
This may have been discussed / debated in this or other threads, who or what are the origins of both Profitec and ECM?
In context, I was on the market a few (2-4) of years ago and then got side-tracted. Back then I just don't recall seeing the ECM or Profitec as brands in this category.
With minimal googling, there "appears" to be a relationship with Giotto and ECM but there's not much history on Profitec.
Would it be fair to say ECM is the parent Co of Rocket / Giotto?
Who is the parent of Profitec. A snapshot from their site (which I have to say contains very little info) states:
"Profitec GmbH was founded in 1985 and has specialized in the marketing of Italian espresso machines, slicers and technical products from the beginning.
We have developed and manufactured hand-made, high-end semi-automatic espresso machines since the 1990's. Now we have decided to use our know-how to build our own
espresso machines and market them under our name."
So, they're founded in Germany marketing Italian machines? I'm sure Profitec have a fine history but was it under another badge or have I missed something?
ECM's site contains more detail, even a chronology of their legal history.
Both ECM Sync and Profitec 700 tick most of the boxes and are on the short-list (there are 2 of us on the market) and it would be great to know a little more on their history.
To the best of my understanding from the tales I have heard over the years...Please be aware that in the game of Chinese whispers, things can/do become somewhat distorted...so, my apologies if this is not 100%.
- ECM Italy (Milan) manufactured ECM original- ECM Giotto/Cellini/Veneziano/Michelangelo et al.
- ECM Germany and Rocket Espresso (NZ) simultaneously manufacture the Giotto (and others?) under licence...
- Stuff happens- effectively causing ECM Italy to go belly up. I can't/won't elaborate further on this...
- Rocket Espresso NZ purchases stock, IP to domestic machines, bricks and mortar of ECM Italy including Giotto and now trades as Rocket Espresso. CEO Andrew Meo and family move to Milan.
- Isomac/La Pavoni/ECM Germany purchase something?? Assume IP to commercials and ECM brand? They continue to manufacture the Veneziano and ultimately other domestics. ECM/Profitec morph out of these companies- which may well actually lead to the same source?
I've wondered whether the Profitec brand/company is kind of like a research arm for ECM as an overarching company, like bringing the 's' part of iPhone 6s to market. They seem to iterate on ECM designs, bring them to market, some features of which then get reincorporated into ECM machines/designs.
I'm mostly basing this thought off the design Profitec T64 which came after the ECM S-Automatik 64 with improvements. Now some of those improvements have been built into the ECM V-Titan 64.
Similarly when Profitec brand hit the scene, it brought the Pro 700 with PID dual boilers into the smaller form factor (previously only available for ECM through the Controvento) and now the Syncronika for ECM has arrived in that similar smaller machine.
I haven't as yet worked out where and why the Profitec Pro 500 fits. My expectation is that next on the ECM bill will be a lever machine... and maybe an improved 'electronika' style machine on Profitec's lineup (maybe even pressure profiling as competition to the R60V)....
What I would also love to see from a dealer or owner...Is the insides of the ECM Synchronika
It always appears to me ECM is built just a touch better all around than Profitec.
But at the same time the Profitec 700 for instance is very nicely done
Just that ECM is always a bit better done
It is of course obvious they are somehow connected that is easy to see.
Maybe it is a Honda/Acura type deal?
I have seen pics of the insides of the Profitec & it was super tidy & well laid out.
I like that as it shows they care
So if anyone can provide a snapshot of the insides would be much appreciated.
Also I know it is slow going since it is so new but would love to hear more feedback on it
Steam capabilities etc
Thanks for the input fellas....
Seems ECM as an entity or entities has lineage going back a while although this may not be directly related to the current incarnation of ECM machines.
Also appears ECM and Profitec have morphed in to some form of parallel universe feeding off each others IP which is fine as from what I can gather it is (or should be) stepping up quality although this is still yet to stand the test of time as other machines clearly have demonstrated.
I wouldn't hesitate to say that ECM et al. are proven brands.
I don't believe that there is any question regarding the build quality of ECM/Profitek, appears to be excellent quality of design, materials and workmanship mostly all based upon an existing reliable format.
Long term reliability issues are more likely to creep in when new concepts, technology or materials are brought into the equation, in my personal experience...
found these pictures?
Just my opinion but for me the finish on the ECM is what sets them apart. The grille/drain tray and the metal finish on the handles are the key feature I like that IMO make it seem more premium or refined than the Profitec. But each to their own
Wow ! Thank You Very Much v1nh
Also Thank you Paul (K-Bean) for piping in the images !
Well it is as I suspected...Very nice layout...clean & smart with the mountings of electronics etc.
The only thing confusing is that 1st pic on Imgur which is also 1st pic in Pauls post...
Does not seem to match the next open Synchronika below it
Notice electronic panel behind two boilers is missing
But in any case a nice clean well thought out machine by the looks of it.
Same goes for that Pro 700 & the use of stainless braided lines
The choice between the Synchronika & the Linea Mini is getting tougher
The ECM adds a few niceties & costs about $1000 less in USD if price compares to Euro & AUD prices
That would be almost 50% s towards a new Mahlkonig Peak grinder etc
Thanks again for pics guys!
PS: I am thinking maybe this pic is actually the 700 mixed into the synchronika's 4 pic collage
Last edited by Mania; 10th May 2016 at 05:37 PM.
Reason: add pic
Looking at the first picture looks like to be from a Controvento? 2nd one is definitely the Syncronika.
Isnt that 1st pic from your synchronika link?
Originally Posted by v1nh
EDIT: Your right I see that pic on google as the ecm controveto
Well then........insides look identical to Pro 700
The diff must be the joy sticks...positioning of gauges & finish etc ?
Yeah was just correcting myself so I dont confuse others..haha
Ah thank you!
Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee
So then the inside is not the same as the Profitec Pro 700
Those boiler end caps have different fittings
Especially noticeable is the fitting dead center of both
Also electronics placement
This is going to represent a nice deal then ....as it does seem identical to
the inside of the controvento shown here at another dealer
ECM Germany Controvento Double Boiler Commercial espresso and cappuccino machines - 115V
Thanks again for the confirmation
I really like the coiled lengths of piping to the gauges. My old rocket premium has short straight piping that goes down to the gauge and that seems to block up in the gauge. Next time I have to replace the gauge I'll add some coils of piping.
Neat! Interesting that there doesn't appear to be anything important taking up the space next to the water reservoir; I'd assumed there was some reason for the small volume (in the ECM HX machines I believe the tank spans the full width of the chassis?).
It's about my only complaint so far with the Synchronika - I'm making so much damn coffee I have to refill it every couple of days!
Are they pics of a prototype or the actual build Paul? I'm seeing boiler out to replace a PID when it goes??
Good news Paul,
It does look unfinished and unresolved- which is why I assumed prototype. Too much nasty there!
I would have thought a manufacturer would supply ample pics and not leave it to an end user (who is usually overcome with curiosity) to pull apart.
Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee
As the old sayin' goes, "if it ain't broke........"
Seems to me these machines are perfected as factory, prepared for end user by re-seller and in some cases "fiddled" with by the new owner 'cause curiosity gets the better of 'em.
When my near 10 year old 6910 has needed attention it took me perhaps 5 years before I opened to look and replace pumps, group heads etc as ultimately it's a Sunbeam, parts are everywhere and it's a cheap machine mass produced in China and yes curiosity got hold of me.
When I buy a new car, I'm very curious but I NEVER fiddle, it's just too damn nice and expensive and I want the best out of it.
Likewise, which ever espresso machine we end up getting my priorities will be:
1. Optimum and consistent brew quality
2. Of course the aesthetics
3. Simple user maintenance
4. If / when something goes wrong, hand it over to a professional
Some things in life are meant to be enjoyed, not fiddled with.
That said, time for a brew.
Ok- shows a little componentry, but still not layout...
I can't see how it's not boiler out to replace the PID and it is a service which will eventually happen when one is defective or comes to the end of its life.
This is not to say that there are not irritating jobs on pretty much all machines, but it would be good to have a real look inside. How about you pull the lid on yours?
We have replaced quite a few of the Minore I PID. The blue display Gicar which went into the Minore II and III as well as early Alex Duetto 2 and a whole heap of other PID machines was notorious and we have seen plenty across a range of brands. Later red display versions seem way more robust.
PID and SSR replacements do happen. To this date, I haven't had to remove a boiler to do one...
Good thing. Always tricky to vector 2D into 3D
This is one of the most entertaining threads I've read on this forum. Made me laugh out loud at least several times in the space of five minutes. Lots of tasty banter and witty repartee.
I'm going to be totally honest here. Sponsor or no sponsor - if I had the gumption to throw $8.5k at a machine like Paul tossed toward his ECM Contravento (which I don't), I'd be damn sure to indulge in a bit of brazen "cock wobbling" myself!
Hey guys! new to the forum and coffee.. can call me a 6 months old barista rookie. I own a brevilla barista express to start, time for an upgrade. I did some research over the past month and decided on a dual boiler machine. Loved how they work, otherwise next step is commerical.. been reading a ton on this here and I had initially set my mind on the the Rocket R58, however I saw alot of people say positive things on the Profitec 700 and then having spoken to a local store, the manager recommended the EDM synchronica. I like that the profitec & synchronica have shot timers, In my current machine (Breville barista express 860) I used a timer on my phone.. anyways time for an upgrade.. I am leaning towards the synchronica but you guys here seem to want me to save some money ) Im again lost as to whether I should go back to the R58 or end up with this newly proposed models.. Mind you, maintenance is a big issue where I live as I would have to send the machine for service in Italy or closest country but at the same time, I am a mechanical engineer and we work on big boiler, I am sure one of my technicians can help me )
Appreciate your feedback and opinions and thanks for the wonderful info shared on here!
The Rocket R58 was very high on my list....But, the I got the ECM Synchronika