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Thread: Rocket R58 or Profitec 700 or New ECM Dual 75 PID; So Many Questions???

  1. #101
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    My BS detectors been running red hot on Coffee Snobs over the past few weeks, have never seen so much overtly commercial content in the past.
    Last edited by Yelta; 18th April 2016 at 08:44 AM.
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  2. #102
    kbc
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    Rocket R58 or Profitec 700 or New ECM Dual 75 PID; So Many Questions???

    By "best" I mean - put the $ in my hand and what will I buy. It's that simple.
    As I said, I sell all 3 so consider myself neutral.
    I don't doubt that others will have other opinions. Share them
    Last edited by kbc; 18th April 2016 at 09:06 AM.
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  3. #103
    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumiya View Post
    Well, he said quietly, and it was recorded in very small print, 'I love my R58'
    I'm sure the Rocket is an awesome machine; if I'd been buying six months ago I'd quite likely have ended up with one and been perfectly happy with it...

    I think an earlier post summed it up - at this price point, all are very good machines and the pros and cons are fairly minor and largely come down to personal taste. I'll no doubt find things about the ECM to criticise over time, but at the very least I prefer the design over the others which is reason enough for me... after all, I'm spending my own money
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  4. #104
    TC
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    And that's it in a nutshell. There is no best. There is only what's right for you.

    We don't sell any bests. We are however pretty good at helping clients match themselves to right- even if it means referring them elsewhere.
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  5. #105
    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Wink

    My previous post notwithstanding, one question I'll almost always ask when spending a bit of cash at a retailer is "which one would you buy yourself?", even if I've already made a decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    My BS detectors been running red hot on Coffee Snobs over the past few weeks, have never seen so much overtly commercial content in the past.
    Really? You must be new here... ;p

  6. #106
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Guess I may as well weigh in.

    I consider my 7 year old Bezzera Domus Galatea the best machine on the market, why I hear you ask, while politely covering a a little laugh with your hand.

    Well I'll tell ya, not because it has a built in gravitational wave detector, synchrotron, elliptical steam and water valves with hand turned Jumbo wood handles, none of this stuff, its a simple well made good looking single boiler E61 machine.

    It's because the thing has performed faultlessly for almost 7 years, it has provided me with daily shots of coffee that rival the best available commercially, it has dispensed shots, made Lungo's and steamed milk without so much as a hiccup, all this for a touch over a dollar a day.

    However to summerise, I love this machine because it makes incredibly awesome coffee, most of em god shots, with a minimum of fuss.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Yelta; 18th April 2016 at 08:38 PM.
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  7. #107
    TC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Matt View Post
    My previous post notwithstanding, one question I'll almost always ask when spending a bit of cash at a retailer is "which one would you buy yourself?", even if I've already made a decision.
    Well you wouldn't be happy at our place then, as my response would be "That's irrelevant. I don't have to live with it, you do. Weigh up the pros and cons as I have pointed them out to you and then you will have the right machine for you."
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  8. #108
    kbc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    However to summerise, I love this machine because it makes incredibly awesome coffee, most of em god shots, with a minimum of fuss.
    Now I see exactly where you are coming from. You are getting regular god shots from a reliable 7 y/o HX.
    That is Awesome !!!

  9. #109
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Awesome perhaps, unusual! nope.
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  10. #110
    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Well you wouldn't be happy at our place then, as my response would be "That's irrelevant. I don't have to live with it, you do. Weigh up the pros and cons as I have pointed them out to you and then you will have the right machine for you."
    Nah, I'd be more'n happy with that response in context - the goal isn't to outsource the decision or buy the same machine, but to have a discussion about the relative merits of the various options. It's not the only way to have that discussion, but I generally find it leads to interesting conversations.

    I wonder what the OP went with in the end...

  11. #111
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    If he has been reading this remarkable thread - a kettle and a teapot would be my guess!
    I have recovered from buyers remorse - I think!
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  12. #112
    Senior Member chokkidog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    My BS detectors been running red hot on Coffee Snobs over the past few weeks, have never seen so much overtly commercial content in the past.
    Hopefully it's just the ..um... the exuberance of ...um... "youth"??

    Might have to start pm'ing friendly advice so it doesn't get "bombed" alphabetically by "someone else"??
    Last edited by chokkidog; 19th April 2016 at 04:16 PM. Reason: a..b..c...
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  13. #113
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chokkidog View Post
    Hopefully it's just the ..um... the exuberance of ...um... "youth"??

    Might have to start pm'ing friendly advice so it doesn't get "bombed" by "someone else"??
    As they say in diplomatic circles,

    A meaningful dialogue has been established.
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  14. #114
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    Hi Guys,
    When I started this tread I would have never of thought I would be still reading it with such intent 4 months later; it definitely has created some great reading but more importantly some quite passionate discussion. ��

    To fill everyone in, I did become quite enthralled in researching, reading and looking at the ins and outs of all machines but was difficult to compare due to the ECM not being available for viewing until MICE last month.


    So now I have seen, touched and felt all machines, guess which one I have ended up with....... None as yet!!!


    IMO,




    - R58 = Has the looks and the terrific Rocket branding (like an iPhone), it's one awesome looking machine
    - Profitec 700 = Proven good all rounder with adjustability and quality build
    - ECM synchronika = The new kid on the block with the bells and whistles and German procession


    To be honest I think I would be happy with any of them.


    My unfortunate position is I'm more interested in getting this machine then the chief of finance and this has some how slipped down the priority list.


    If I had to pick one at the moment it would be the ECM but this decision could be easily swayed on a good deal on any of the above machines.


    Anyway I'll provide an update when I make the purchase..... Hopefully sooner rather then later.


    Thanks to all for their input on this thread.


    Cheers.

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  15. #115
    kbc
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    Great thread. It really got some momentum. And it's still going

  16. #116
    Junior Member Mania's Avatar
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    I will be back in Hawaii in 2 months after living in Asia these past few years

    I am 99% sure I am going with Linea Mini when I get home but this ECM Synchronika is the only other
    I am considering...Appears to have great build quality...A good sized steam boiler albeit @ 2Liter near half the size of the mini's 3.5L Steam boiler

    Waiting to hear more feedback as it has not been released in US yet.
    But a beautifully built machine
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    Understand that sponsorship is what keeps the forum going, but would be nice to keep the commercial stuff mostly in the commercial threads instead of turning every discussion into a promotion...

  18. #118
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evro50 View Post
    Understand that sponsorship is what keeps the forum going, but would be nice to keep the commercial stuff mostly in the commercial threads instead of turning every discussion into a promotion...
    Yep, I agree, gets pretty annoying after a while, only a relatively recent phenomena.
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  19. #119
    TC
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    Hi Paul,

    Yes- it is clearly stated in Site sales and posting policy (the rules) and a little balance is important. I reckon that the mod team have applied plenty of honeymoon period slack and I know for a fact that we'd be pulled up on it.

    Suggest that social networking and your website are great ways that those interested can receive your info as to stocks and availability as thick and fast as they desire...

    When the feather becomes the whole chook it's no longer fun...
    Last edited by TC; 8th May 2016 at 12:35 PM.
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  20. #120
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    Fair point... I have a challenge with the sponsors thread in that when I post a promotion like the 4 Synchronika pre-sales there's no way for me to send an update to let people know when they are half gone, or even all gone, etc. I'll ask other sponsors how they manage this. Thanks for the feedback.
    Suggest you take it up with site management Paul, this is not a topic for open forum.

    Chris's comments are valid, time to back off.

    As per forum rules
    "No Commercial Posts in
    * Forum Posts"

  21. #121
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    +1 on Chris' comments. We come here for independent advice not a sales pitch

  22. #122
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    If anyone feels any of my posts are not independent please send me a PM. Feedback is very welcome.
    The move from member to sponsor is pretty tricky. Of course, as a retailer I do have commercial interests. However, coffee is still my hobby and passion.
    When you are a member you can express your opinion on a brand or product pretty freely. When
    You are a sponsor people often suspect commercial interests even when they aren't there. A good example is my love of conicals. I expect that some thought I might have a pallet of conicals sitting around. Not even close. I don't have any in stock. I bring them in as orders come in and I don't sell many at all. Not many people want to spend $2k on a grinder.
    Anyway, let's get this thread back on track now.
    Cheers from Pauly404/K Bean (or the other way around)
    Paul even this is beating your drum, enough is enough.
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  23. #123
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    I didn't mean to get on a high horse, relatively new member after all. Input from sponsors is very much appreciated since you guys know more than most I think you'll find giving information/positing in discussions is great marketing on its own, I know it's worked on me on several occasions!!
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  24. #124
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    Cheer up guys, everyone here is passionate about coffee and we are here to help each other. As b(Paul) mentioned, the transition from member to sponsor isn't easy and he's obviously still finding his feet on that front and where the limitations lie, I'm sure this sort of stuff is a discussion to have with Andy and the mods to figure out what is right and wrong and have future interactions within the forum based on that.

    But let's not step on b, he's having a go and trying to get his business going, so I understand his enthusiasm. He's put himself and his wallet forward as a sponsor, not just doing sales on the sly to members poaching via PM or anything and that is a tick in my book. At the end of the day, sponsors help keep the forum running.

    Jusy my second crack, we are all here to help each other guys.

    insert group hug here.

    Chris
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  25. #125
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    Yeah, I didn't really think Paul was out of line or blatantly pushing a commercial agenda here. There's been a few testy posts in this thread about totally subjective things and I think everyone here has been transparent in their dealings. Sure Paul might be enthusiastic given his business is new and it's taken a bit of time to find the right balance but I think calling him out in this thread has been pretty harsh. If Andy or the mods have an issue with Paul, I'm sure they'll discuss it privately with him. Let's get back to talking about what we're all passionate about - coffee.
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  26. #126
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    Ok, just to deviate back on topic.....

    This may have been discussed / debated in this or other threads, who or what are the origins of both Profitec and ECM?

    In context, I was on the market a few (2-4) of years ago and then got side-tracted. Back then I just don't recall seeing the ECM or Profitec as brands in this category.

    With minimal googling, there "appears" to be a relationship with Giotto and ECM but there's not much history on Profitec.

    Would it be fair to say ECM is the parent Co of Rocket / Giotto?

    Who is the parent of Profitec. A snapshot from their site (which I have to say contains very little info) states:

    "Profitec GmbH was founded in 1985 and has specialized in the marketing of Italian espresso machines, slicers and technical products from the beginning.

    We have developed and manufactured hand-made, high-end semi-automatic espresso machines since the 1990's. Now we have decided to use our know-how to build our own
    espresso machines and market them under our name."

    So, they're founded in Germany marketing Italian machines? I'm sure Profitec have a fine history but was it under another badge or have I missed something?

    ECM's site contains more detail, even a chronology of their legal history.

    Both ECM Sync and Profitec 700 tick most of the boxes and are on the short-list (there are 2 of us on the market) and it would be great to know a little more on their history.

    Cheers
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  27. #127
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    To the best of my understanding from the tales I have heard over the years...Please be aware that in the game of Chinese whispers, things can/do become somewhat distorted...so, my apologies if this is not 100%.
    • ECM Italy (Milan) manufactured ECM original- ECM Giotto/Cellini/Veneziano/Michelangelo et al.
    • ECM Germany and Rocket Espresso (NZ) simultaneously manufacture the Giotto (and others?) under licence...
    • Stuff happens- effectively causing ECM Italy to go belly up. I can't/won't elaborate further on this...
    • Rocket Espresso NZ purchases stock, IP to domestic machines, bricks and mortar of ECM Italy including Giotto and now trades as Rocket Espresso. CEO Andrew Meo and family move to Milan.
    • Isomac/La Pavoni/ECM Germany purchase something?? Assume IP to commercials and ECM brand? They continue to manufacture the Veneziano and ultimately other domestics. ECM/Profitec morph out of these companies- which may well actually lead to the same source?

  28. #128
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Tangentially...

    I've wondered whether the Profitec brand/company is kind of like a research arm for ECM as an overarching company, like bringing the 's' part of iPhone 6s to market. They seem to iterate on ECM designs, bring them to market, some features of which then get reincorporated into ECM machines/designs.

    I'm mostly basing this thought off the design Profitec T64 which came after the ECM S-Automatik 64 with improvements. Now some of those improvements have been built into the ECM V-Titan 64.
    Similarly when Profitec brand hit the scene, it brought the Pro 700 with PID dual boilers into the smaller form factor (previously only available for ECM through the Controvento) and now the Syncronika for ECM has arrived in that similar smaller machine.

    I haven't as yet worked out where and why the Profitec Pro 500 fits. My expectation is that next on the ECM bill will be a lever machine... and maybe an improved 'electronika' style machine on Profitec's lineup (maybe even pressure profiling as competition to the R60V)....
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  29. #129
    Junior Member Mania's Avatar
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    What I would also love to see from a dealer or owner...Is the insides of the ECM Synchronika

    It always appears to me ECM is built just a touch better all around than Profitec.
    But at the same time the Profitec 700 for instance is very nicely done
    Just that ECM is always a bit better done
    It is of course obvious they are somehow connected that is easy to see.
    Maybe it is a Honda/Acura type deal?

    I have seen pics of the insides of the Profitec & it was super tidy & well laid out.
    I like that as it shows they care

    So if anyone can provide a snapshot of the insides would be much appreciated.
    Also I know it is slow going since it is so new but would love to hear more feedback on it
    Steam capabilities etc

    Thanks
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  30. #130
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    Thanks for the input fellas....

    Seems ECM as an entity or entities has lineage going back a while although this may not be directly related to the current incarnation of ECM machines.

    Also appears ECM and Profitec have morphed in to some form of parallel universe feeding off each others IP which is fine as from what I can gather it is (or should be) stepping up quality although this is still yet to stand the test of time as other machines clearly have demonstrated.

    Thanks again

  31. #131
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    I wouldn't hesitate to say that ECM et al. are proven brands.

  32. #132
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    I don't believe that there is any question regarding the build quality of ECM/Profitek, appears to be excellent quality of design, materials and workmanship mostly all based upon an existing reliable format.

    Long term reliability issues are more likely to creep in when new concepts, technology or materials are brought into the equation, in my personal experience...

    Mal.

  33. #133
    Junior Member v1nh's Avatar
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    found these pictures?


    Syncronika
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  34. #134
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    Just my opinion but for me the finish on the ECM is what sets them apart. The grille/drain tray and the metal finish on the handles are the key feature I like that IMO make it seem more premium or refined than the Profitec. But each to their own
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  35. #135
    Junior Member Mania's Avatar
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    Wow ! Thank You Very Much v1nh

    Also Thank you Paul (K-Bean) for piping in the images !

    Well it is as I suspected...Very nice layout...clean & smart with the mountings of electronics etc.

    The only thing confusing is that 1st pic on Imgur which is also 1st pic in Pauls post...
    Does not seem to match the next open Synchronika below it
    Notice electronic panel behind two boilers is missing

    But in any case a nice clean well thought out machine by the looks of it.
    Same goes for that Pro 700 & the use of stainless braided lines


    The choice between the Synchronika & the Linea Mini is getting tougher
    The ECM adds a few niceties & costs about $1000 less in USD if price compares to Euro & AUD prices
    That would be almost 50% s towards a new Mahlkonig Peak grinder etc

    Thanks again for pics guys!

    PS: I am thinking maybe this pic is actually the 700 mixed into the synchronika's 4 pic collage
    1.jpg
    Last edited by Mania; 10th May 2016 at 04:37 PM. Reason: add pic

  36. #136
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    Looking at the first picture looks like to be from a Controvento? 2nd one is definitely the Syncronika.
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  37. #137
    Junior Member Mania's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by v1nh View Post
    Looking at the first picture looks like to be from a Controvento? 2nd one is definitely the Syncronika.
    Isnt that 1st pic from your synchronika link?

    This one........
    synch inside.jpg

    Thanks

    EDIT: Your right I see that pic on google as the ecm controveto

    Well then........insides look identical to Pro 700
    The diff must be the joy sticks...positioning of gauges & finish etc ?
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  38. #138
    Junior Member v1nh's Avatar
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    Yeah was just correcting myself so I dont confuse others..haha
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  39. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    I got a very quick response from the distributer. Here's the Synchronika pic from them:
    Yep, it's the same one found on Imgur.
    Ah thank you!

    So then the inside is not the same as the Profitec Pro 700
    Those boiler end caps have different fittings

    Especially noticeable is the fitting dead center of both
    Also electronics placement

    This is going to represent a nice deal then ....as it does seem identical to
    the inside of the controvento shown here at another dealer
    ECM Germany Controvento Double Boiler Commercial espresso and cappuccino machines - 115V

    Thanks again for the confirmation

  40. #140
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    I really like the coiled lengths of piping to the gauges. My old rocket premium has short straight piping that goes down to the gauge and that seems to block up in the gauge. Next time I have to replace the gauge I'll add some coils of piping.

  41. #141
    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Neat! Interesting that there doesn't appear to be anything important taking up the space next to the water reservoir; I'd assumed there was some reason for the small volume (in the ECM HX machines I believe the tank spans the full width of the chassis?).

    It's about my only complaint so far with the Synchronika - I'm making so much damn coffee I have to refill it every couple of days!
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  42. #142
    TC
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    Are they pics of a prototype or the actual build Paul? I'm seeing boiler out to replace a PID when it goes??

  43. #143
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    Good news Paul,

    It does look unfinished and unresolved- which is why I assumed prototype. Too much nasty there!

    Chris

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    We have to keep in mind that these machines (and machines for all top brands) are evolving. We see models named V1, V2, etc. What we don't see is all of the incremental changes along the way.
    What we need are pictures of current models. Let's hope we have someone out there ready to pull apart their machine and take pics for us.
    I would have thought a manufacturer would supply ample pics and not leave it to an end user (who is usually overcome with curiosity) to pull apart.

    As the old sayin' goes, "if it ain't broke........"

    Seems to me these machines are perfected as factory, prepared for end user by re-seller and in some cases "fiddled" with by the new owner 'cause curiosity gets the better of 'em.

    When my near 10 year old 6910 has needed attention it took me perhaps 5 years before I opened to look and replace pumps, group heads etc as ultimately it's a Sunbeam, parts are everywhere and it's a cheap machine mass produced in China and yes curiosity got hold of me.

    When I buy a new car, I'm very curious but I NEVER fiddle, it's just too damn nice and expensive and I want the best out of it.

    Likewise, which ever espresso machine we end up getting my priorities will be:

    1. Optimum and consistent brew quality
    2. Of course the aesthetics
    3. Simple user maintenance
    4. If / when something goes wrong, hand it over to a professional

    Some things in life are meant to be enjoyed, not fiddled with.

    That said, time for a brew.

  45. #145
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    Ok- shows a little componentry, but still not layout...

    I can't see how it's not boiler out to replace the PID and it is a service which will eventually happen when one is defective or comes to the end of its life.

    This is not to say that there are not irritating jobs on pretty much all machines, but it would be good to have a real look inside. How about you pull the lid on yours?

  46. #146
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    Hi Paul,

    We have replaced quite a few of the Minore I PID. The blue display Gicar which went into the Minore II and III as well as early Alex Duetto 2 and a whole heap of other PID machines was notorious and we have seen plenty across a range of brands. Later red display versions seem way more robust.

    PID and SSR replacements do happen. To this date, I haven't had to remove a boiler to do one...

  47. #147
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    Good thing. Always tricky to vector 2D into 3D
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  48. #148
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    This is one of the most entertaining threads I've read on this forum. Made me laugh out loud at least several times in the space of five minutes. Lots of tasty banter and witty repartee.

    I'm going to be totally honest here. Sponsor or no sponsor - if I had the gumption to throw $8.5k at a machine like Paul tossed toward his ECM Contravento (which I don't), I'd be damn sure to indulge in a bit of brazen "cock wobbling" myself!
    GunBarista likes this.

  49. #149
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    26
    Hey guys! new to the forum and coffee.. can call me a 6 months old barista rookie. I own a brevilla barista express to start, time for an upgrade. I did some research over the past month and decided on a dual boiler machine. Loved how they work, otherwise next step is commerical.. been reading a ton on this here and I had initially set my mind on the the Rocket R58, however I saw alot of people say positive things on the Profitec 700 and then having spoken to a local store, the manager recommended the EDM synchronica. I like that the profitec & synchronica have shot timers, In my current machine (Breville barista express 860) I used a timer on my phone.. anyways time for an upgrade.. I am leaning towards the synchronica but you guys here seem to want me to save some money ) Im again lost as to whether I should go back to the R58 or end up with this newly proposed models.. Mind you, maintenance is a big issue where I live as I would have to send the machine for service in Italy or closest country but at the same time, I am a mechanical engineer and we work on big boiler, I am sure one of my technicians can help me )

    Appreciate your feedback and opinions and thanks for the wonderful info shared on here!

    Cheers,

    Omar

  50. #150
    gez
    gez is offline
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    21
    Hi,

    The Rocket R58 was very high on my list....But, the I got the ECM Synchronika


    Magic_Matt likes this.

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