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Thread: Rocket R58 or Profitec 700 or New ECM Dual 75 PID; So Many Questions???

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    Rocket R58 or Profitec 700 or New ECM Dual 75 PID; So Many Questions???

    Hello All,

    Long time listener, first time caller.... Love the show! (My attempt at comedy)

    Well, after many years of sufferance with a pod machine and approval from the chief of war and finance, I'm in the midst is searching for my first prosumer espresso machine.

    To give a little bit of a back ground..... I'm an engineer, so I love the inner workings of these machines and also the finesse of trying to achieve that ultimate shot. I don't spend a hell of a lot of time during the week at home, so this machine will do most of its work on Saturday and Sunday mornings and entertaining (coffee loving family and self-confessed snobs).

    Until last week I had my search narrowed down to 2 machines (thanks to all the great info on this forum, thanks guys); the Rocket R58 and the Profitec 700.... I was also looking at the ECM Controvento due to the fact that I love the workmanship of the ECM, but the price tag (around 5.5K) and the large footprint were putting me off.

    And then..... I was reading some info online about the 2015 HOST in Milan a few weeks ago and read that ECM were releasing a new dual boiler with PID in a similar body shape to the EMC Profi. Can someone tell me is this the same machine as the Profitec 700 just with a different label?

    Specs on the ECM Dual 75 PID are;

    ECM E61 brew group
    Dual Boiler
    Stainless steel .75lt boiler for espresso boiler
    Stainless steel 2lt for steam and hot water boiler
    Off/on switch for steam boiler
    PIP temp control for both boilers and shot timer
    Rotary pump
    3lt water tank (can also be plumbed)
    No burn steam and hot water wands
    10amp electrical heating with 1x1400W and 1x1200W


    With some further research, it looks like the EMC will be priced around the 3.5 to 4k AUS.

    Obviously I will need a grinder and other bit and pieces but ultimately I want to get the best quality machine (in my price range), with some adjustability and something that is going to deliver a great espresso (and milk based drinks).

    Appreciate any feedback or advice?

    Thanks,

    Dean

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    Welcome, Dean!!!

    I suggest considering a good quality grinder to complement the machine. That combo will work with a prosumer espresso.
    I would add that to the deal.

    We have Site Sponsors who possess great knowlege in all things Coffee. Read thro' here
    Sponsors

    You can be further tempted by a visit to them....
    Enjoy your journey with Coffee


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    Hi Dean,

    I'm looking to upgrade to a rotary pump dual boiler machine, so I've been looking into the Profitec and Rocket as well. The internals of the Profitec 700 / ECM Contravento / ECM Dual Boiler 75 are likely to be almost identical, the specs are certainly the same. The ECM 75 looks a bit better in that the gauges are higher up and the steam valves are the lever/joystick type which some people prefer. The taste in the cup from these three machines will likely be very similar, so would suggest you go with whichever appeals to you.

    I discounted the Rocket due to reports of very poor steam power and the finicky external PID, however it certainly looks very nice.

    Good luck with the search!

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    Thanks for the feedback, I surely will check out the sponsors on the site.

    Good call MrMcsteam on the internals of the EMC and Profitec machines. I think I'll have to wait for the ECM 75, to at least check it out anyway.

    Thanks.

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    Senior Member brettreaby's Avatar
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    in this range the izzo alex duetto also has super similar specs: any specific reason you are not including this?

    Except for the fact it as a PID controller, not a PIP ( boom boom)

    As an engineer and peering inside my Alex i can tell you it is also a work or art
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    Agreed Brett- they are terrific and we have a special November offer as well...Izzo Alex Duetto III | Talk Coffee

    Must admit, I'm frequently surprised by what I read on the web. In coffee, a large proportion of it is regurgitated urban myth. R58 steam is terrific- albeit gentler than the Izzo and perhaps the others as well. Whilst some might author sweeping statements of criticism, their comments come from rudimentary or zero understanding of the machine/s, process and dynamics. Some (many/most?) quite possibly have no hands on experience with either machine.

    A steam system is akin to a respiratory system: Boiler = lungs, Valve = windpipe and steam tip = mouth. The Rocket has finer holes and therefore gentler, long lasting steam. The Izzo in stock configuration has greater steam pressure but would probably run out of steam earlier than the same machine with a finer tip. Those that complain about the Rocket would just as likely complain that the Izzo has too much steam! Take the tips off the Rocket and Izzo and they'd both run out of steam pretty quickly.

    What we care about is whether there is sufficient steam to texture for 2 x milky drinks and is the machine ready to do it again by the time you are back with the group handle for the next round of coffee? The answer in all cases is yes.

    The Izzo PID strategy is to use lower capacity elements to heat both boilers simultaneously. The Rocket uses higher capacity and alternates with priority to the brew boiler. Profitec/ECM? Dunno... Bottom line is all of them work!
    Last edited by TC; 18th November 2015 at 02:53 PM. Reason: more info
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    yea, i dont get the r58 lack of steam comments either. I have no issues at all with the steam on mine and always get great microfoam.

    i would say, go into one of our sponsors and try a few out to see for yourself.

    R58, Izzo, Profitec..etc....dont think you could go wrong with either of them...
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnA View Post
    yea, i dont get the r58 lack of steam comments either.
    My impression was that the problem is seen on 110 volt North American machines.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantfm View Post
    My impression was that the problem is seen on 110 volt North American machines.
    So not relevant to an Australian forum nor discussion of Australian machines ;-)
    Last edited by TC; 18th November 2015 at 05:18 PM.

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    Thanks Brett for the pick-up on the PIP (auto correct, you know how it is).

    To be honest I hadn't really paid much attention on the Izzo Alex Duetto iii (for no particular reason), the specs do stack up but the machine looks like it's about to trip over its drip tray (Not a big fan), it may look different in person.

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    TC
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    Just goes to show that you never really know until you see them in the metal.

    Some complain about small drip trays in the others. Best bet is away with the keyboard and onto those feet.
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  12. #12
    kbc
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    Here's a great link for comparisons of dual boiler, PID machines https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=utMkSJD8WcI

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    Thanks Pauly, this is a great comparison video and have watched it half a dozen times. thanks for the link.

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    kbc
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    You can find some really great reviews on YouTube.

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    kbc
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    The interesting things about the video above is that is pits the Expobar Minore up with the others that cost $1500+ more. The Minore is a category killer !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly404 View Post
    The interesting things about the video above is that is pits the Expobar Minore up with the others that cost $1500+ more. The Minore is a category killer !!!
    Whilst you might come to that conclusion based on specification, once you look at build and finish the logical conclusion is that the Minore is priced about right for what it is. If you look at the rotary pump variant, it's $500+ cheaper than the Rocket and Profitec variants. No biggie to see where the money went.

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    kbc
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    Rocket R58 or Profitec 700 or New ECM Dual 75 PID; So Many Questions???

    IMHO if you want the best bang for the buck the Minore wins hand down. Even the rotary pump version will keep up with all rivals. Some people prefer the rotary pump as it's initial pressure ramps up more slowly so has less of an initial impact on the puck. I agree though that other machines look better. I think you pay the extra $ for the look of the machine once you go $2500+
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    I'm looking forward to hearing more about the ECM Dual 75 PID!

  19. #19
    kbc
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    So am I. ECM Dual 75 PID - interesting

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    Has anyone seen any information with regards to an arrival or release date on the new ECM dual 75 recently?

    I heard it was supposed to arrive in Australia during February at some stage. There's a video on YouTube filmed at HOST that showed ECM still had a bit of fiddling around to do before releasing the final product.
    Last edited by Marxy24; 2nd February 2016 at 07:35 PM. Reason: Typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marxy24 View Post
    Has anyone seen any information with regards to an arrival or release date on the new ECM dual 75 recently?

    I heard it was supposed to arrive in Australia during February at some stage. There's a video on YouTube filmed at HOST that showed ECM still had a bit of fiddling around to do before releasing the final product.
    I have spotted a seller (not a CS sponsor) selling them on gumtree recently. Not sure if it's pre order or not, but that seller is always very cheap, which is a slight concern. I haven't had any verified dealings with the shop though so can't comment beyond that.

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    I'm still waiting.

    I have been keeping a close eye on the ECM website and Facebook page but I haven't seen anything since the info released from host.

    I have also seen this ad on gumtree but haven't done anything about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snedden9485 View Post
    I have spotted a seller (not a CS sponsor) selling them on gumtree recently. Not sure if it's pre order or not, but that seller is always very cheap, which is a slight concern. I haven't had any verified dealings with the shop though so can't comment beyond that.
    If they're on gumtree but not in our known Aus distributors, it's a pretty strong argument for parallel imports hey :-/ I reckon Aus spec ones won't be too far away.

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    Junior Member Dr._V's Avatar
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    You like ECM and all machines listed are capable of god shots. Just buy one. Life is too short.

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    I am getting stunning coffee from the R58. It is very close in taste to our favourites coffee place. The steam is texturing the milk in a different way than the Rocket HX machines. It is coming along nicely with very fine froth and really stretched milk that I have not achieved before. It think this may be why some folk think the R58 lacks steam but for some unknown reason it chooses to do it differently!
    Life is need to short to miss out on this joy!
    (The repaired Premium Plus, that I was thinking of selling is likewise trying to impress me with truly spectacular coffee. I make coffee for the local yoga devotees that use our hall and others)

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    That's an interesting point Readeral. His prices are always dirt cheap, he has ecm automatik 64 grinders sub $1000? Makes you think that if it sounds too good to be true it likely is. Personally I'd much to prefer to buy off one of the sponsors on here or my local dealer in Newcastle for after sales support etc.
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    Is there any news on availability of the ECM dual 75

  28. #28
    rbk
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    I heard it will be on show at MICE next month

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    Thanks rbk! Would be alright to go over to Melbourne. But I doubt it at this stage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greeny03 View Post
    Thanks rbk! Would be alright to go over to Melbourne. But I doubt it at this stage.
    Hi Greeny,

    If you're relatively remote, the availability of service/warranty support should be as much of a consideration as is your ultimate choice of machine.

    Cheers

    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Hi Greeny,

    If you're relatively remote, the availability of service/warranty support should be as much of a consideration as is your ultimate choice of machine.

    Cheers

    Chris
    Cheers Chris
    More so, I would like to see the machine. I am in Adelaide so travelling to Melbourne to MICE is probably a little off the price of the machine. 😉

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Hi Greeny,

    If you're relatively remote, the availability of service/warranty support should be as much of a consideration as is your ultimate choice of machine.

    Cheers

    Chris
    Hi Greeny,

    Speaking from a personal experience, I can't agree more on having reliable and trustworthy after sales support, a small steam leak on my izzo alex leva was promptly sorted after a few international phone calls to Chris of Talk Coffee, some would have been after hours (darn 4 hour time difference)

    I would gladly pay more to have this peace of mind, thank goodness I didn't have to as our site sponsors offer competitive prices anyway with brick and mortar presence.

    Happy coffee gear hunting!

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    I second Bazooka's comments. The support from sponsors is critical for peace of mind. For me, Chris @ Talk_Coffee, has been fantastic in supporting my '08 Giotto Premium from Melbourne to me in Perth. Helped find parts and kept the old girl running - and still producing A1 coffee at work. I am sure other sponsors are no different. So yes, seek the machine you would like, then throw the possible need for parts and support into the pot.
    In my lastest acquisition I managed to find a local professional supplier (known to Chris) and chose a 'main line' unit, one that parts are readily available and locally fixable. It also is producing stunning coffee as well!
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    Has anyone at the coffee expo today had an opportunity to take any photos? Id love to see the new ECM Dual Boiler 75
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    rbk
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    Trying to upload image for you. It's nice😄☕️

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    The anticipation is killing me

  37. #37
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    ECM dual boiler.jpgECM Dual Boiler at MICE
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    Looks like Pro 700, that has been reshuffled. Do want, unless it priced at more than pro 700.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pasic View Post
    Looks like Pro 700, that has been reshuffled. Do want, unless it priced at more than pro 700.
    Yep. Gauge position and steam/water levers basically.

    charlie

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    kbc
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    The ECM Synkronika has passive pre-infusion like my ECM Controvento. That's a huge plus. The R58 doesn't have that. Also, the ECM has stainless boilers and a big Steam boiler. I'm an ECM fan now.

  41. #41
    kbc
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    This is what made me a fan

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    I pulled trigger on 700 pro. Couldnt see synkronika having anything ground breaking over pro 700 plus not to mention additional wait and price.

    At first i liked the joysticks but after seeing one ive changed my. Im yet to see peofitect haha so i might change my mind again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly404 View Post
    This is what made me a fan
    Thats sooo preaty would fit well into my coffee man cave next to K8.

  44. #44
    kbc
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    Enjoy that Pro700. I know they are awesome. The Pro700 and ECM both smash the R58 so good choice
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  45. #45
    TC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly404 View Post
    Enjoy that Pro700. I know they are awesome. The Pro700 and ECM both smash the R58 so good choice
    I always question statements like that. On the basis on one opinion and personal bias?

    My call? All very good machines.

  46. #46
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly404 View Post
    The Pro700 and ECM both smash the R58
    Can you elaborate on this statement Pauly, how exactly do they carry out the task of "smashing" the opposition, do they make better coffee, are they cheaper, easier to use, faster, use less power, easier to maintain, built to last longer or is it a cosmetic thing.
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  47. #47
    kbc
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    Styling is subjective so leave that aside.
    Advantages of the ECM Synkronica over the R58 is Stainless boilers, shot timer, PID on front (subjective, but I prefer it), a bigger steam boiler, more solid build quality (at MICE I was told 40kg!!!). German engineering and A1 quality. (Think about cars, German vs Italian).
    Also shot timer and the biggest plus of the lot is the passive pre-infusion.
    I ran an R58 for the past 2 years and loved it. It's awesome. I just think the ECM beats it in many ways.

    Also, I'm told the $4.5k ECM has the same insides and specs as my $8k Contravento.

    Many may disagree - it's my opinion .

    As Chris said, all great machines.

  48. #48
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    the shot timer would be a nice feature (why dont more machines with pid display do it, cant be hard to add to the electronics).

    what do you mean by passive pre infusion? is this different to the built in pre infusion of the e61 group?

    cheers

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauly404 View Post
    Styling is subjective so leave that aside.
    Advantages of the ECM Synkronica over the R58 is Stainless boilers, shot timer, PID on front (subjective, but I prefer it), a bigger steam boiler, more solid build quality (at MICE I was told 40kg!!!). German engineering and A1 quality. (Think about cars, German vs Italian).
    Also shot timer and the biggest plus of the lot is the passive pre-infusion.
    I ran an R58 for the past 2 years and loved it. It's awesome. I just think the ECM beats it in many ways.

    Also, I'm told the $4.5k ECM has the same insides and specs as my $8k Contravento.

    Many may disagree - it's my opinion .

    As Chris said, all great machines.

    Does it make better coffee?
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  50. #50
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    Well I am over the moon with our R58. There was one change I discovered. Steaming the milk required an almost vertical wand. This was different from my HX. Once I understood this, and thus why they designed the wands proud of the body. The down side is I have micro foam overflowing the jug. I am using the small hole head and the steam just keeps coming.
    So while people can't make up their minds, we are enjoy a steady daily stream of great coffee.
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