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Thread: Faema Due - $100

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    Faema Due - $100

    Hi,

    I picked up a Faema Due - 2 Group for $100 off ebay recently and am wondering if it's worth repairing and restoring. I'd say it needs a full teardown and clean. It's history is largely unknown but was apparently working when it was retired from a cafe in Sydney.

    It's looks quite used on the outside but okish internally?? I haven't had a chance yet to give it some water and power.

    A few questions to start with.

    1. What would be a reasonable amount to spend restoring it?

    2. Is there a trick to removing the green steam/hot water knobs without breaking them?

    3. Is it possible to reduce the boiler volume? Silly question?

    4. Should it have a plate stating model numbers and power consumption etc?

    5. Why is there different controls for each group? Does that suggest there's been a repair?

    6. It looks like the plug has been changed to a 15A plug. Does that suggest it's already had one element disconnected to make it usable on a 15A circuit.

    7. Does the water level sight glass look broken?

    Thanks,
    Brad
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by greencardigan; 13th January 2016 at 02:18 PM. Reason: More questions
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    Some more pics
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    Quote Originally Posted by greencardigan View Post
    Hi,

    I picked up a Faema Due - 2 Group for $100 off ebay recently and am wondering if it's worth repairing and restoring. I'd say it needs a full teardown and clean. It's history is largely unknown but was apparently working when it was retired from a cafe in Sydney.

    It's looks quite used on the outside but okish internally?? I haven't had a chance yet to give it some water and power.

    A few questions to start with.

    1. What would be a reasonable amount to spend restoring it?

    2. Is there a trick to removing the green steam/hot water knobs without breaking them?

    3. Is it possible to reduce the boiler volume? Silly question?

    4. Should it have a plate stating model numbers and power consumption etc?

    5. Why is there different controls for each group? Does that suggest there's been a repair?

    6. It looks like the plug has been changed to a 15A plug. Does that suggest it's already had one element disconnected to make it usable on a 15A circuit.

    7. Does the water level sight glass look broken?

    Thanks,
    Brad

    Hi Brad,

    So to quickly run through some of your questions on your Faema (which looks like a real good clean will make the world of difference).
    1: This will depend on the level of rebuild, but if the major components are functional (pump,element, autofill etc) I can see the parts cost being up to around $150 ish??? if the pressure gauge is faulty that would mean extra
    2: The plastic knobs are hard. it best to unclip the stainless saddles which clip onto the valve and remove the whole front panel with the knobs still attached, then you can use a spanner to remove the green bits.
    3: No.
    4: Sometimes they do but often no!
    5: Yes, one touch panel has been replaced.
    6: Remove the left side panel and view the element/wiring, if all wires are attached theres a fair chance that its still going full noise. take care removing the panels. just loosen off the 2 screws on top and the panel will swing out.
    7: The glass looks cracked, new ones are available or hit up a friendly NZ faema wrecker for a 2nd handy!

    cheers, Justin

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    Hey Justin,

    Thanks for the info.

    Quote Originally Posted by 260zman View Post
    2: The plastic knobs are hard. it best to unclip the stainless saddles which clip onto the valve and remove the whole front panel with the knobs still attached, then you can use a spanner to remove the green bits.
    Excellent, I had a few moments this morning and got one side off.

    I need to find some plumbing fittings to connect the braided water supply hose (3/8" BSP?) to a gravity fed reservoir.

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    greencardigan,

    Welcome along the rocky road of commercial coffee machine refurbishment,I'm up to number six,wonderfully satisfying it is too.
    3/8" British Standard Pipe (measures about 16.& bit mm) however 1/2" BSP was also in use in similar situations (about 20mm/ish).
    Please remember to use a non return (check valve) to prevent possible damage to your rotary pump(they don't like to run dry).
    I use bottled rain water (no calcium etc) and never connect to town water supply.
    There's a "sticky" thread somewhere in the posts,real helpful information for just this exercise,I got lots of good guidance from it.
    Have fun and watch you don't become slack/ silly and zap yourself in the process.
    Cheers,
    Mick.
    Quote Originally Posted by greencardigan View Post
    Hey Justin,

    Thanks for the info.


    Excellent, I had a few moments this morning and got one side off.

    I need to find some plumbing fittings to connect the braided water supply hose (3/8" BSP?) to a gravity fed reservoir.

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    Hi Mick,

    I haven't been able to find the 'sticky' thread you're referring to.

    Do you have your water supply hose inserted into the top of a water container?
    I was thinking of attaching the hose to a tap at the bottom of a container and having it gravity fed. I don't think I'll need a non return valve in this case?

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    Is this an element protection probe going into the boiler between the element terminals? The orange wire.
    DSC_0567.jpg

    Part of the insulation seems to be missing from this probe wire
    DSC_0570.jpg

    Not sure if this will be useful for anyone. It shows what I think is the pinout for the button panels.
    DSC_0577.jpg
    DSC_0573.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by greencardigan; 15th January 2016 at 08:39 PM.

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    green cardiganHow to descale a HX machine properly

    This is such a thorough explanation,covers so much of what you will need to consider.
    There is a requirement to install a check valve ( non return valve) as discovered by another (recent) Rancillio S26 repairer,had a failing rotary pump sending boiling water in the wrong direction (back to the water supply),most unpleasant!
    So unless you have water supply from plumbed service (mains pressure),I would never draw water without one fitted and correctly orientated,cheap PVC units from B........'s (in their plumbing section) for about $15.00 (including fittings),Four of my six rebuilt machines continue to use them,work so well ,with no problems.
    Two of my HX machines ,draw their water from a 2500 rainwater tank,being fed via a 60 litre first flush header tank,followed by an inline basket filter.......no unexpected debris in my machines.
    cheers,
    Mick.
    The commercial machines I have resurrected are situated at my work's staff room and rather then risk the machine running dry,I have fitted the check valves (non return valves) to the inline water supply hoses.


    QUOTE=greencardigan;570687]Hi Mick,

    I haven't been able to find the 'sticky' thread you're referring to.

    Do you have your water supply hose inserted into the top of a water container?
    I was thinking of attaching the hose to a tap at the bottom of a container and having it gravity fed. I don't think I'll need a non return valve in this case?[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by mulquemi; 16th January 2016 at 01:18 PM. Reason: extra info

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    Quote Originally Posted by greencardigan View Post
    Hi Mick,

    I haven't been able to find the 'sticky' thread you're referring to.

    Do you have your water supply hose inserted into the top of a water container?
    I was thinking of attaching the hose to a tap at the bottom of a container and having it gravity fed. I don't think I'll need a non return valve in this case?
    I run my machine currently from a tank (was plumbed at the last house, but I need to build a new bar in this house before I can plumb it). It's a translucent plastic 'jerry can' style water bottle from Bunnings, the type that has a thread near the bottom for a plastic tap. I just swapped the plastic tap for a suitable brass fitting to convert from the large female thread in the water bottle to a 3/8" male thread so I could attach the braided hose that runs to the machine. The tank sits next to the machine and is refilled using a 2 litre plastic 'oil can' that also came from Bunnings whenever I see the water level getting low. I don't have a one way valve fitted and it's never been an issue.

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    Hey Brad,

    The orange wire that has a bit of sheath missing- its an overtemp probe which is linked to the button on the left side of the control box. I guess its use is to try and save the element from killing itself if the water level is low. pretty much all of them have some of the orange sheath missing.

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    I connected a gravity fed water container but wasn't getting much flow through the pump with the pump off.
    DSC_0628.jpg

    I disconnected the hose on the pump outlet and was getting very limited flow through the pump while it was off. Seems way too low?
    DSC_0633.jpg

    At least the control board looks mint. I might try disconnecting the motor/heater plug and confirm that it's operational. Looks like my machine is around 1996 vintage based on the sticker on the main chip. Does anyone know what the DIP switches are for?
    DSC_0646.jpg

    I cracked open the jet assembly on the left group. Should I be concerned about this level of scale? It seems the jet hole is essentially blocked.
    DSC_0680_crop.jpg
    Last edited by greencardigan; 22nd January 2016 at 09:52 PM.

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    Would an old Faema E91 2 group machine give me some spare parts compatible with a Faema Due?

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    Hello Greencardigan,
    You should be fine with the flow image you provided,remember once your rotary pump starts up the boiler will fill quickly.
    Despite some not using check valves,I would encourage any user of plumbed or gravity water supplied espresso coffee machines to research the why and justification of having them fitted.As stated previously can be as cheap as $15 (all up) or big $$$$$ is you are so inclined!
    Once you've confirmed all the individual parts of your machine are operational,just plug it all on and fire it up.
    good luck,
    Cheers,
    Mick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by greencardigan View Post
    Would an old Faema E91 2 group machine give me some spare parts compatible with a Faema Due?
    Hello Greencardigan,
    Yes, should be able to use some components, however, I'm interested in a operational water level controller, should you find you have no need of it yourself ,give me a call, please.
    Thanks,
    Mick.

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    I managed to get the pump working today. Initially it wasn't pumping at all and could have been seized I guess? After cycling power to the pump a few times using the front buttons it started working. It seems to be pumping OK but seems quite noisy!

    The auto fill circuitry also seems to be working as the pump starts a few seconds after startup when the sensor is disconnected.

    There seems to be water in my water level sight glass, but I was thinking the boiler was empty so I'll have to investigate that.

    What do you think about the pump noise? The 3-way solenoid could be contributing too though I suppose.


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    Whoa that's noisy! So that was with the pump hose off aye? It seems excessive and I'm wondering if it's because of the gravity feed setup. You can just pull the hirschman plug off the 3 way valve to remove any other noises so as to eliminate them.

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    I haven't actually looked at your latest photos yet as the c.s app on my phone never lets me see them but I could see your video fine. But I'll check them out asap.

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    Faema Due - $100

    I've only just stumbled onto this thread and don't have time to read it all, so sorry if I duplicate any answers.
    I had a Faema Due D92/A1 a couple of years ago. Awesome machine and now that I'm a home owner again I regret selling it. The Due models were Faema's non-E61/91 machines. They had a slightly lighter group head, but were otherwise very similar to other Faema models. So you should be able to find some compatible parts on an E91 machine. Certainly general parts like pipe, fittings and some wiring. Group head and control circuit parts could be the only things that won't transfer over.
    Stop using tank water. If yours is the 2 group version of mine it won't work and you'll wreck the pump. I can't say for sure regarding your machine, but I know that after a LOT of research I found that the particular rotary pump used in my Faema and the way Faema connected it meant that it could only be used with pressurized water. I never found out what the minimum pressure was, but gravity wasn't enough and it definitely couldn't draw from a tank sitting below the bench.
    Mine needed a proper 15A circuit to run. At one stage I tried to run it through a mates 'modified' 10A extension cord. It didn't work, and thankfully no damage was done.
    Mine was in much better nick when I got it, but it still needed a bit of a spruce up and a service. Here's how it came up:
    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1453802457.295788.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by 260zman View Post
    Whoa that's noisy! So that was with the pump hose off aye?
    Yep, I've disconnected the pump outlet from the boiler fill valves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Stop using tank water. If yours is the 2 group version of mine it won't work and you'll wreck the pump. I can't say for sure regarding your machine, but I know that after a LOT of research I found that the particular rotary pump used in my Faema and the way Faema connected it meant that it could only be used with pressurized water. I never found out what the minimum pressure was, but gravity wasn't enough and it definitely couldn't draw from a tank sitting below the bench.
    Thanks for the info. Do you know if the pumps in the E91 machines are the same? Or are they ok with a gravity supply?

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    No idea sorry. Can you see a model number on the pumps anywhere to see if they're different?

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    I don't have the E91 machine (yet) so can't check numbers.

    Plumbing the Due into mains water is not an option in the short term so I'll have to continue the testing/rebuild using a gravity fed supply. I'll get the storage container lifted up higher which should help a bit.

    I suppose I'll also look around for a replacement pump capable of drawing from a reservoir below the pump.
    Last edited by greencardigan; 28th January 2016 at 01:19 PM.

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    Any idea how much citric acid I'd need to do a full descale after stripping it down?

    Or how much 'off the shelf' descale solution would I need if I was descaling as decribed here (How to descale a HX machine properly)

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    Hi mate.
    Citric acid is cheap, but you'll prob only need 1/2 a kg max. Prob not even 300g.

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    Thanks. I'll go looking for some. Seems like I have a blockage somewhere in Group 1 or its plumbing.

    I disconnected the 3-way solenoid and the the pump noise is actually much better. Still a bit loud but it seems the solenoid was making the loud buzz. The group 2 solenoid is quieter.

    I'm getting flow out of group 2 but it looks a bit slow?

    Pump without solenoid.


    Group 2 running. Low flow rate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by greencardigan View Post
    I don't have the E91 machine (yet) so can't check numbers.

    Plumbing the Due into mains water is not an option in the short term so I'll have to continue the testing/rebuild using a gravity fed supply. I'll get the storage container lifted up higher which should help a bit.

    I suppose I'll also look around for a replacement pump capable of drawing from a reservoir below the pump.
    Rather than replace the pump altogether you could install another one externally on the line between your tank and the machine. This is not uncommon for this type of set up.

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    Yep, I'm on the lookout for a replacement pump and motor. There's a few Procon pumps for auction ATM but they're clamp mount ones.

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    Why would my boiler be filling when running only the pump? Could the manual fill valve or auto fill valve be stuck open a bit? I have the drain on the boiler open and the water flows out once the pump starts. The pump pressure gauge rises to 3 bar.

    I found that my boiler was 2/3 full. No wonder it was heavy trying to shoehorn it into the car when I picked it up!

    Also, after draining the boiler, the water level in the sight tube hasn't moved and still shows over full. Must be a blockage.

    Boiler filling whenever pump is on.


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    So I picked up some Caffetto descaler from the local supermarket. It's a 250ml bottle and should mix to 2 litres of descaler. Will that be enough to descale both HXs? I don't intend to descale the boiler just yet.

    Also, will the descale solution descale the water inlet pipes, inlet valves and pump given that they will contain cold descaler? I understand the descaler needs to be hot to work?

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    You do realize that if you heat the machine up to operating temperature and then pump the descaler through the HX/Grouphead it will flash to steam in the HX leaving behind all those wonderful chemicals in the HX right?


    Java "Fun with HX's" phile
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    No I didn't realise that. Are you suggesting I shouldn't run descaler through the HX/groupheads while the machine is at full pressure and temperature? Should I be letting it cool a bit? None of the HX descale instructions I've seen (including the "How to descale a HX machine properly" sticky) mention anything about this.
    Last edited by greencardigan; 10th February 2016 at 12:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by greencardigan View Post
    No I didn't realise that. Are you suggesting I shouldn't run descaler through the HX/groupheads while the machine is at full pressure and temperature?
    That's exactly what I'm saying. At full operating temperature when the water is injected into the HX it flash boils and turns to steam which then condenses back to water after exiting the HX. When the water flashes into steam anything in the water that has a boiling point above ~118C remains behind in the HX.

    Should I be letting it cool a bit?
    Yup, the water needs to stay water rather than flashing into steam.

    None of the HX descale instructions I've seen (including the "How to descale a HX machine properly" sticky) mention anything about this.
    Talk_Coffee's post only discusses descaling the boiler, not the HX side of things.


    Java "Heat what?" phile
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile View Post
    At full operating temperature when the water is injected into the HX it flash boils and turns to steam which then condenses back to water after exiting the HX.
    Thanks. I've been reading about HXs but hadn't picked this up.

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    It may not hold true for some of the newer custom tuned machines (Chris/Talk_Coffee would have better info on this than I.) but it certainly holds for machines like the older La Cimbali's and by extension I would assume the Faema's as well.


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    Prior to doing any major dismantling I've determined the condition of most critical parts.

    • Pump and motor - seem to be running ok, although a bit noisy and not sure if it's providing enough pressure (haven't seen pressure gauge go above 3 bar).
    • Control circuitry - seems fine. Auto fill, output relays and control buttons working. Flowmeter lights pulse when running water through groups.
    • Boiler - no leaks and holds pressure.
    • Boiler heating elements - Both elements working but very rusty contacts.
    • Inlet water valves and Solenoid - Possible blockage in plumbing or stuck/leaking valve. Boiler getting filled whenever pump is on. Manual fill doesn't seem to work.
    • 3-Way valves and Solenoids - Not really sure but seem ok so far.
    • Pressure Gauge - Boiler pressure side OK, not sure about pump pressure side (haven't seen it go above 3 bar).
    • Pressure Stat - OK currently turning on at about 1.1 bar and off at 1.4 bar.
    • Steam outlets - One has a leaking valve but releases lots of steam! The second one seems to have a bit less pressure although it could be just larger holes on the tip.
    • Hot water outlet - Low flow, valve or plumbing blocked.
    • Water level sight tube - Looks cracked but isn't leaking.
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    Oh that's good that's everything is intact and in a semi workable state. Definitely worth pressing on and giving it a good birthday you think?

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    Yep! Planning to keep on with it while looking around for a parts machine. I've had plenty of fun tinkering with it already.

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    The descaled inlet valve seems to be working a bit better now. The boiler isn't filling like it was before when running water through the groups. The manual fill button is still a bit sticky though.

    I've disconnected all the HX plumbing from group 1 and all the pipes were clear so possibly I have a blockage in the group itself.

    I have the group removed from the machine but I'm not sure how to go about descaling it. Would a long soak in weak acetic acid damage the chrome finish on the group?

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    Did you check the small pipes that go to/from the flow meter?

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    Yep. I took the pipe from the inlet valve to the flow meter out and was able to blow through it. I also ran the pump with the flow meter to HX injector pipe disconnected and was getting water flow through the flow meter.

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    I've got group 1 unblocked. I think the main blockage was in the small holes within the group that come to and from the 3-way valve. One was mostly blocked with scale and the other with coffee oils/gunk.

    The two little seals that go on the base of the 3-way valve against the group are toast, so they'll be added to the list of minor parts required. The 3-way valve and solenoid seem to be working fine on this group as does the volumetric control.

    Does the flow rate look ok now?

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    That looks good: nice loud click of the coil engaging the nucleus in the solenoid. Quick termination of flow.

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    Coffee Parts doesn't seem to list the old version of the steam valves that my machine has. Will I be able to find parts for the old valve locally? Or will I need to get the new valve unit as a complete unit?

    Coffee Parts - Newer version
    Capture3.JPG

    My machine seems to have this older version as shown on Espressoparts
    Capture.JPG

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    Quote Originally Posted by greencardigan View Post
    Coffee Parts doesn't seem to list...
    Pickup the phone and give them a call... they are super helpful and always look after CoffeeSnobs!
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    Too right...

    Coffee Parts have been super helpful to me over many years and I am very thankful for their support with several different machines.

    Mal.
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    Coffee Parts gets orders to me in 24 hours. Right parts; no mistakes. Ever. Every time.

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    Sounds great. I'll give them a call sometime soon. I still need to finish going over the machine to work out what other parts I need.
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    It seems that the old version of the steam valve my machine has are no longer available from Coffee Parts. However the old valve may be able to use some of the parts from the water inlet valves. I'll have to pull the leaking steam valve apart to investigate.

    I have the second group descaled and unblocked. It was blocked in the same location as group 1.

    And I still suspect my pump is under performing. With a blind filter in the group I only get about 3 bar pressure (I'm still running with a gravity fed supply). I've tried adjusting the nut on the pump both ways with no changes in pressure noticed. Am I missing something?

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    Yes. You need to disassemble the bypass and ensure it's able to take more spring tension. When machines with vane pumps sit for awhile the bypass can seize.
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    Feb 2008
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    Wollongong
    Posts
    148
    Looks like they bypass is seized. I've taken the adjustment nuts and spring off but the internal mechanism isn't moving at all. Any advice how to get it moving again?

    Inside pump bypass with spring removed

    DSC_1017.jpg


    Also, I have a spare washer floating around my bench but have no idea which part it came from!! Any ideas?!

    DSC_1012.jpg

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