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Thread: Rocket R58 vs Profitec 700 vs ECM Synchronika

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    Hi there, that calls for a phone call. Call me any time on 0416528339 and I'll explain
    Big cost to call an Australian mobile from Sweden!
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    Hi there, that calls for a phone call. Call me any time on 0416528339 and I'll explain
    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    Big cost to call an Australian mobile from Sweden!
    Being located in Sweden, I think it's a tad too costy for me
    I can google around some to find information when I have the spare time for it Thank you for the offer though!

    How did you know, 338, where I am located?
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanax View Post
    How did you know, 338, where I am located?
    My friends at the NSA told me. I assumed because of the SEK first column that only a Swede would need the price in Swedish Krona, of course you could have been a recent transplant somewhere who had a need to calculate everything in their home countries currency

    Pre infusion and Pre wetting isn't that big a subject in relation to the table, I am sure someone here is capable of summarising it into two short paragraphs. I won't because I am not familiar enough with the machines in question, but the rough idea is one wets the coffee puck before the pour/extraction, the other wets the coffee puck under light pressure before the pour/extraction. The idea is to get a better extraction with less channelling, etc. I am sure someone else will give a better summary, but gives you the very general idea. Expensive phone call saved!
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  4. #54
    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    My friends at the NSA told me. I assumed because of the SEK first column that only a Swede would need the price in Swedish Krona, of course you could have been a recent transplant somewhere who had a need to calculate everything in their home countries currency

    Pre infusion and Pre wetting isn't that big a subject in relation to the table, I am sure someone here is capable of summarising it into two short paragraphs. I won't because I am not familiar enough with the machines in question, but the rough idea is one wets the coffee puck before the pour/extraction, the other wets the coffee puck under light pressure before the pour/extraction. The idea is to get a better extraction with less channelling, etc. I am sure someone else will give a better summary, but gives you the very general idea. Expensive phone call saved!
    I think that's a great summary.

    But as I understand it, both Profitec and ECM support both of these 'modes' (line pressure preinfusion if plumbed in, boiler pressure (?) pre-wetting if on tank.

    I'm not sure how the Rocket R58 works - people have suggested in the past it can be set up to have the same behaviour, but ggoosen's post suggests this isn't the case and the R58 doesn't support preinfusion or pre-wetting. 🤔
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  5. #55
    Senior Member coffe4me2's Avatar
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    Good discussion / thread.
    As an ex-Rocket R58 owner I can report no pre-wetting or pre-infusion on that unit. The Pro 700 is a big step up.
    JT
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  6. #56
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
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    Every standard e61 group head has "built in" mechanical pre-infusion of 6 or so seconds.
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    I find the e61 prefusion adequate and automatic. Being part of the design allows me to get on with making excellent coffee.
    Now the grinders are run in I have no channeling.
    That said I wish I could steam the milk as easily on the R58 as I can on the HX Rockets. Unfortunately the nozzles are not interchangeable so I can't do a comparison to see if it is the pressure or the nozzle hole angles that make one markably better than the other.
    I think others have posted this frustration.
    Last edited by dumiya; 2 Weeks Ago at 02:59 PM. Reason: Spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by dumiya View Post
    I find the e61 prefusion adequate and automatic. Being part of the design allows me to get on with making excellent coffee.
    Now the grinders are run in I have no channeling.
    That said I wish I could steam the milk as easily on the R58 as I can on the HX Rockets. Unfortunately the nozzles are not interchangeable so I can't do a comparison to see if it is the pressure or the nozzle hole angles that make one markably better than the other.
    I think others have posted this frustration.
    I had a R60V and couldnít seem to get the milk just rite, it was not bad but not as good as my previous HX rocket, with my new machine itís awesome, it has a four hole tip compared to the rocket two hole tip, and more steam power.
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  9. #59
    Senior Member coffe4me2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonar View Post
    Every standard e61 group head has "built in" mechanical pre-infusion of 6 or so seconds.
    That's sort of true n. The e61 gives pressure ramping but not real pre-infusion. Pre-infusion raises the bar a little I reckon. Real pre-infusion is why people pay $8k for a GS3. I'll pay half an take a Pro 700 or Synchronika thanks
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    Love my Sync, gets a good workout at home

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    Rocket R58 vs Profitec 700 vs ECM Synchronika

    Agreed - the e61 design is fantastic/legendary and there's no need for pre-wetting or pre-infusion.

    Pre-wetting has a small effect at best. The benefit of pre-wetting is debatable.

    Plumbed pre-infusion is a different story - it's very nice to have. You can see it in action in the video I posted a few posts back. The first 10 seconds shows plumbed pre-infusion only. The lever (and pump) isn't activated until the 10 second mark.

    Cheers, Paul
    K Bean Dream Machines
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  12. #62
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
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    https://youtu.be/pL3Aqg-8wUc


    Is this the "pre-infusion" "pre-wetting" that the R58 cannot do? or have I completely missed the point? Thought I'd avago on the plumbed, un-modded R58 that I have regular use of ;-) whilst mini servicing it yesterday. Why not wet the freshly ground coffee, in situ, in the porta fliter under a running tap, prior to locking it in the group head, if the need to pre-wet is OCD?Just a thought.
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  13. #63
    Senior Member coffe4me2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonar View Post
    Is this the "pre-infusion" "pre-wetting" that the R58 cannot do? or have I completely missed the point?
    Nice video mate. I never plumbed my R58 but it looks like you DO get pre-wetting when done. Cool and good to know.
    That's definitely not pre-infusion though as pre-infusion has a quicker flow rate because of full tap pressure pushing. I think ??
    JT
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    Looks like it opened valve without turning on the pump. At least I could not hear a pump. It of course won't work with the reservoir as the head of water is too low. I can't actually see the point of it for normal use making coffees for the family!
    I think this 'prewetting' was partly calculated in the e61 prefusion. All interesting stuff.
    Like the PID on the cable. I set the temps put it away and use the same beans and all is good!
    How dull and boring you say - probably
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    Oh, by the way. I spent some focused time steaming with my R58. I just did it properly and got consistent micro foam and delightfully thickerpned milk - happy wife, happy life .
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    If the E61 group head has this built-in out of the box, what is then the difference with preinfusion between the 3 machines?
    I mean, if they are the same, why do you want me to include it in the spreadsheet? Just for informational purposes?
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    Rocket R58 vs Profitec 700 vs ECM Synchronika

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanax View Post
    If the E61 group head has this built-in out of the box, what is then the difference with preinfusion between the 3 machines?
    Hang in there Tanax. I'll write a little guide soon. I'll probably start a new thread.
    Cheers, Paul
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    Hang in there Tanax. I'll write a little guide soon. I'll probably start a new thread.
    Cheers, Paul
    Sorry for being so impatient Thanks Paul!
    For the record, my name is Marcus Maybe I should write that somewhere in my profile :P
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    G'day Marcas - I'll have to remember now. Tanax = Marcus
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    Goin from the barista express to one of those! Should be a partaaaay for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by ggoosen View Post
    Hi, fellow snobs.

    The time has come to finally get rid of the Breville DB and move onto my ideal machine.

    So far I have been looking at the following

    Rocket R58 (2017 version)
    Profitec 700
    ECM Synchronika

    From my perspective, there are a few things i would like to have in a coffee machine (based on my experience so far)
    Dual Boiler,
    Must be able to be hard plumbed, or reservoir
    PID would be nice

    What are peoples thoughts on the above machines?

    Regards
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    I posted this in an old forum instead of this page so pls excuse me..

    Hey guys! new to the forum and coffee.. can call me a 6 months old barista rookie. I own a brevilla barista express to start, time for an upgrade. I did some research over the past month and decided on a dual boiler machine. Loved how they work, otherwise next step is commerical.. been reading a ton on this here and I had initially set my mind on the the Rocket R58, however I saw alot of people say positive things on the Profitec 700 and then having spoken to a local store, the manager recommended the EDM synchronica. I like that the profitec & synchronica have shot timers, In my current machine (Breville barista express 860) I used a timer on my phone.. anyways time for an upgrade.. I am leaning towards the synchronica but you guys here seem to want me to save some money ) Im again lost as to whether I should go back to the R58 or end up with this newly proposed models.. Mind you, maintenance is a big issue where I live as I would have to send the machine for service in Italy or closest country but at the same time, I am a mechanical engineer and we work on big boiler, I am sure one of my technicians can help me )

    Appreciate your feedback and opinions and thanks for the wonderful info shared on here!

    Cheers,

    Omar
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    I have a sync. I don't think you will be disappointed with either it or the Pro 700. The only downside I see with all these machines is the lack of scheduled start/stop times. I love to be able to get up in the morning and the machine is already up to temp and ready for use, to do this I need to use one of those plug in timer things which to me is a disappointment as even my $2k cheaper Breville had this functionality. My other gripe is the shot timer needs to have a delay on it as soon as you finish the shot it clears and goes back to zero, would be good to have a 10 second delay on the clearing function. Other than that, great machine

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    Hey! Thanks for your message & support. Im happy to be joining the forum and contributing even after buying the machine.

    Ya so the start/stop would have been nice for sure.. It seems to be a very close call between all 3.. My only issue which I didn't understand as to why everyone sees a preference for the valves to be spring loaded on the profitec? What advantage would it have.. the lever on the synchorinica seems quiet simple and a cool, easy to use feature.

    Also the synchornica can clear tall cups without issue - I thought that was cool. Also synchornica comes with a full proper tamper and the portafilter is angled for easier resting on the table.

    Im trying to really see if there is any maintenance issue with either? Also are there any differences in steaming power / hot water nozzles between the 2?

    A final thing about the grinder, nobody has to buy the same brand grinder, sure it looks cool to match but it's not a must. For me personally, I have to go with a eureks that has a flat burr as opposed to conical because we have a lot of humidity here and it seems to work best using flat burr grinders ( said a few baristas to me ) really not sure this is true or not...

    This is a costly investment gents.. I have to get this right 😂


    Quote Originally Posted by bowser View Post
    I have a sync. I don't think you will be disappointed with either it or the Pro 700. The only downside I see with all these machines is the lack of scheduled start/stop times. I love to be able to get up in the morning and the machine is already up to temp and ready for use, to do this I need to use one of those plug in timer things which to me is a disappointment as even my $2k cheaper Breville had this functionality. My other gripe is the shot timer needs to have a delay on it as soon as you finish the shot it clears and goes back to zero, would be good to have a 10 second delay on the clearing function. Other than that, great machine
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    Article on Synchronica.. seems to me water n steam valves spring loaded as well!

    The eyes are next drawn to a pair of new stainless steel joysticks with insulated “no-burn” wands, which make steam and hot water dispensing instant on and off. These spring loaded joysticks swivel on a ball joint for easy locking at any point on the rotation, and the steam power can be fine tuned for different steaming preferences by adjusting the steam boiler using the PID controller.
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    I don't think steam power can be adjusted, temperature of steam can though.I have no issues with the sync wands, they work great and don't leak etc. very easy to use
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  26. #76
    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Couple of quick points...

    1. On my (v1) Synchronika, there's a ~5 sec delay after stopping the shot before the display clears and goes back to showing boiler temps.

    2. The profi rotary knobs use 'anti-crush' valves; the valves don't rely on the torsion of you turning the knob to press the washer and block the valve, so the washers don't wear as fast and you don't need to turn them increasingly hard to prevent drips as they wear. This is a differentiator with the Rocket and most other machines with rotary knobs afaict.

    The toggle levers on the Synchronika work differently; the levers are on a self-centering ball joint and there's nothing to torque - when they are in the off position they are, well, off!

    They only have two "set" positions, but aren't binary - you can manually control the steam pressure by holding the lever between the two positions. But I don't really know why you'd want to, unless steaming a very small quantity of milk. If you regularly change between 500ml and 150ml this might be a point in favour of the Profitec.

    Adjusting the steam boiler temp will also influence the quantity, temperature and wetness of the steam. I'd only change that if you find you're getting insufficient steam for big quantities (which you won't) or that it takes too long to steam (which you might if you regularly make 2+ large milk drinks at once and are a bit impatient). Personally I've dialed down the steam temp a dash to give better control as I only steam ~150ml milk at once most of the time.

    3. These machines are pretty simple in terms of electronics, which minimises maintenance and failures... hence no microcontroller to switch on/off at set times. A Belkin Wemo is like fifty bucks, and the ability to turn on/off remotely is very handy. Also works well with Google assistant and my Google Home (though the response "ok then, I'll turn the caffeine off" is a little depressing).

    4. The ECM portafilters are very nice; I have a naked that I use 90% of the time, and two standard ones that get used if I split shots for a group, and backflushing. If you like the ECM aesthetic, you won't find a better-looking machine without going an order of magnitude more expensive 😉

    The inclusion of a usable tamper and stand for small cups (Neither of which came with the v1) is icing on the cake.

  27. #77
    Senior Member coffe4me2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ikazooz View Post
    Appreciate your feedback and opinions and thanks for the wonderful info shared on here!
    Omar: Take it from an ex R58 owner (me) that's the Pro 700 and Synch are clear winners.
    I think Profitec, ECM and rocket are the top 3 as brands but for the dual boiler category the 2 Germans kill Rocket.
    I went from R58 to pro 700. I love it madly!
    JT

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Matt View Post
    2. The profi rotary knobs use 'anti-crush' valves; the valves don't rely on the torsion of you turning the knob to press the washer and block the valve, so the washers don't wear as fast and you don't need to turn them increasingly hard to prevent drips as they wear. This is a differentiator with the Rocket and most other machines with rotary knobs afaict.
    Doubt this to be the case with quality machines such as the Rocket or others...
    I have owned BFC machines since 2009, a HX and then a Dual Boiler, and in both cases the Steam/Water Valves are Spring Actuated and not Needle and Seat. The latter is more commonly found on Single Boiler Dual Purpose machines such as basic Lelit offerings and Rancilio Silvia for example...

    Mal.

  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffe4me2 View Post
    Omar: Take it from an ex R58 owner (me) that's the Pro 700 and Synch are clear winners.
    I think Profitec, ECM and rocket are the top 3 as brands but for the dual boiler category the 2 Germans kill Rocket.
    I went from R58 to pro 700. I love it madly!
    JT
    Can you outline what is so much better about these 2 machines over the rocket? I'm of the opinion that at this end of the market, if your SO likes the look of it and you can afford it and are happy to give the bloke selling it your money, buy it.

    Some people like the classic look of the rocket and don't want to clutter the face with digital distractions, others will find it to be a hassle having to plug in the pid to change temps. Some will be happy to take the stainless boilers of the ecm, others may like the tried and true copper boiler in the rocket.

    Me? I have a BFC and although I do envy the rotary pump of the machines you've listed, I love the look, the cavernous drip tray and the satisfying way you can flick the taps and they'll spin home themselves. I don't think I'd trade it for any of the above machines to be honest. Beware the echo chamber and go with the machine you like the look of that can be purchased from someone you trust
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    from my limited research, It seems that the R58 has a lot of solenoids vs the other 2. Messy interior for personal maintenance / spare part change. Those are the 2 major ones that come to mind. About solenoids going bad, in my own field of mechanical fire protection, plumbing, boilers etc.. if you get good quality solenoids they should never go back. very rarely but in the world of coffee who knows why people think so.. but I take it that people are coming with this through experience either at work, friends, previous machines etc.. so the opinion must be respected. This info didn't come out of nowhere.

    in my region, the rocket is the heavily marketed machine and they've done a fantastic job. The profitec/ECM, German espresso machines.. unheard off - haha so I shall struggle with this over here for sure but I am set on one of them.

    The digital timer is very nice.. not sure why people wouldn't prefer it, and in the case of the synchornica, it's matching with the frame so you can't really see it but thats a branding things anyways of rocket classic vs other machines...

    The synchornica also has a bigger boiler.. I think that's something that's welcomed but then we get the issue of the levers in the hot water / steam valves...



    Quote Originally Posted by magnafunk View Post
    Can you outline what is so much better about these 2 machines over the rocket? I'm of the opinion that at this end of the market, if your SO likes the look of it and you can afford it and are happy to give the bloke selling it your money, buy it.

    Some people like the classic look of the rocket and don't want to clutter the face with digital distractions, others will find it to be a hassle having to plug in the pid to change temps. Some will be happy to take the stainless boilers of the ecm, others may like the tried and true copper boiler in the rocket.

    Me? I have a BFC and although I do envy the rotary pump of the machines you've listed, I love the look, the cavernous drip tray and the satisfying way you can flick the taps and they'll spin home themselves. I don't think I'd trade it for any of the above machines to be honest. Beware the echo chamber and go with the machine you like the look of that can be purchased from someone you trust
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  31. #81
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    Interesting.. especially this belkin wemo.. Its funny how breville oracle has a timer and all these machines dont! shame.. but we do have a solution now.

    Thanks for the info on point no 2!
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  32. #82
    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=ikazooz;609855]from my limited research, /QUOTE]

    It looks like you've gone overboard in your internet research and it is starting to get counter productive..

    Be interested to see the response from someone that has owned both machines.
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  33. #83
    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ikazooz View Post
    from my limited research, It seems that the R58 has a lot of solenoids vs the other 2. Messy interior for personal maintenance / spare part change. Those are the 2 major ones that come to mind. About solenoids going bad, in my own field of mechanical fire protection, plumbing, boilers etc.. if you get good quality solenoids they should never go back. very rarely but in the world of coffee who knows why people think so.. but I take it that people are coming with this through experience either at work, friends, previous machines etc.. so the opinion must be respected. This info didn't come out of nowhere.

    in my region, the rocket is the heavily marketed machine and they've done a fantastic job. The profitec/ECM, German espresso machines.. unheard off - haha so I shall struggle with this over here for sure but I am set on one of them.

    The digital timer is very nice.. not sure why people wouldn't prefer it, and in the case of the synchornica, it's matching with the frame so you can't really see it but thats a branding things anyways of rocket classic vs other machines...

    The synchornica also has a bigger boiler.. I think that's something that's welcomed but then we get the issue of the levers in the hot water / steam valves...
    Same is true here re: marketing - the Rocket has been the 'default' choice for years and still is so outside of Coffeesnobs to some extent. The growth in popularity in ECM and Profitec is more organic - or at least that's my take. Agree 100% with the previous poster that you shouldn't be swayed by marketing or even opinion - but I'd be a bit more pragmatic and say put together a shortlist, compare features and other factors and if you can inspect each of the contenders before making a choice. I wouldn't buy an espresso machine based primarily on aesthetics; fortunately all the machines in this category look pretty great.

    Definitely agree re: looks - though the new Rocket is quite pretty too. I do think there are much better options to have a PID control and maintain a 'clean' appearance, like the Profitec Pro 800 where it's hidden behind the drip tray (which makes sense for that machine as a shot timer isn't much use on a leva unless you install an additional microswitch and cam somewhere I guess...). But yeah - I wouldn't be without a shot timer now, and it's not like the Synchronika PID control looks like someone stuck a 1980s scientific calculator into the panel like the control panel on the Vesuvius for example 😉
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  34. #84
    Senior Member coffe4me2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnafunk View Post
    Can you outline what is so much better about these 2 machines over the rocket?
    Hi mate, already done so many posts back
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  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffe4me2 View Post
    The R58 was a great machine but the PID was horrible. I think it was designed to set temp then go back in a drawer but in reality you have to keep it hooked up to change from brew boiler only to having both boilers on. A wonky drip tray was another gripe. I changed to a Pro 700 this year and it's an upgrade. Visible PID, shot timer, easy switching from 1 to 2 boilers, better steaming, quieter pump and everything is just more refined and solid feeling. The Synchronika was also on my short list but I prefered the look of the Pro 700. The 2 German machines definitely win. I hope this helps you with your big $ decision buddy.
    JT
    Found it.

    The only thing on your list applicable to me would have been the quieter pump and the subjective build quality assessment.
    Not a poor reflection on your review but more so indicating that your reasons for selecting one machine over another are different to what i deem important.
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  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Matt View Post
    but I'd be a bit more pragmatic and say put together a shortlist, compare features and other factors and if you can inspect each of the contenders before making a choice. I wouldn't buy an espresso machine based primarily on aesthetics; fortunately all the machines in this category look pretty great.
    That shortlist already exists Posted it on the first page of this thread!
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    tell me about it...

    On to the grinder folks....


    [QUOTE=trentski;609868]
    Quote Originally Posted by ikazooz View Post
    from my limited research, /QUOTE]

    It looks like you've gone overboard in your internet research and it is starting to get counter productive..

    Be interested to see the response from someone that has owned both machines.
    K_Bean_Coffee likes this.

  38. #88
    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffe4me2 View Post
    Hi mate, already done so many posts back
    ...and in the thread title 😉

    Just responding more to the post saying (paraphrasing) "just buy the machine you like the look of" on the precious page; I think it pays to be more analytical than that (as you are) ☺
    K_Bean_Coffee, Tanax and coffe4me2 like this.

  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanax View Post
    Thank you all for your kind comments
    The spreadsheet will of course be updated with all relevant comparison information.





    Could you kindly explain how these work/differs from each other? Am happy to update the spreadsheet as long as I understand what it is
    If it's considered off topic, feel free to send me a private message
    Awesome work here tanax...any chance of adding the profitec pro 500 to the spreadsheet

    Thanks in advance

  40. #90
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    Does anyone know the heat up time for each of these lovely works of art. Maybe if you could advise heat-up time to pull a shot vs. recommended time to let the temp stabalise before pulling a shot.

  41. #91
    Site Sponsor K_Bean_Coffee's Avatar
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    Hi there,

    It's roughly the same for all E61 machines.

    Their boilers all heat up in several minutes then it's another 15 minutes before you get to "reasonable shot" territory.

    For absolute thermal equilibrium expect to wait 35 minutes or so.

    Not a problem for most as we have all learned to set a $20ish powerpoint timer to turn our machines on in the early hours of the morning, before we turn on.

    Cheers, Paul

    K Bean - Training

  42. #92
    Marcus
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    Quote Originally Posted by madaxle View Post
    Awesome work here tanax...any chance of adding the profitec pro 500 to the spreadsheet

    Thanks in advance
    Hi madaxle,

    Thank you for your kind words!
    I actually had the Pro 500 on the spreadsheet before but in Sweden, the Pro 500 is about as expensive as the Technika IV Profi/Switchable and the Technika is just a better machine in almost every way so I removed Pro 500 from the list.

    I can certainly add it back if you guys are interested

  43. #93
    Site Sponsor K_Bean_Coffee's Avatar
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    Rocket R58 vs Profitec 700 vs ECM Synchronika

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanax View Post
    .....the Pro 500 is about as expensive as the Technika IV Profi/Switchable and the Technika is just a better machine in almost every way.....
    Don't underestimate the Pro 500....

    Personally I would choose a Pro 500 (vibe) over Tech Profi (Rotary), even if priced the same. You can read reasons I'm a fan here

    I sell both and margins are the same. I prefer the Pro 500 and recommend it unless plumbing is a requirement.

    It's worthy of your spreadsheet

    Cheers, Paul
    Last edited by K_Bean_Coffee; 2 Days Ago at 10:26 PM.

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