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Thread: Rocket R58 vs Profitec 700 vs ECM Synchronika

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    Rocket R58 vs Profitec 700 vs ECM Synchronika

    Hi, fellow snobs.

    The time has come to finally get rid of the Breville DB and move onto my ideal machine.

    So far I have been looking at the following

    Rocket R58 (2017 version)
    Profitec 700
    ECM Synchronika

    From my perspective, there are a few things i would like to have in a coffee machine (based on my experience so far)
    Dual Boiler,
    Must be able to be hard plumbed, or reservoir
    PID would be nice

    What are peoples thoughts on the above machines?

    Regards

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    Nice choice to have! I would say at that pricepoint you may as well get a PID, you are likely to keep the machine years so no point wondering if it would be handy. I know at least one machine, the Profitec, has it standard.
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    A very nice selection indeed.. and I am pretty sure that they all come with PID etc so the majority of your boxes ticked.. the end choice will most likely just come down to aesthetics and whether you prefer toggles or knobs. Enjoy the experience

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    Personally I'd choose Profitec over the other two DBs. ECM should be very similar to Profitec internally given they are literally 1 company however its more expensive (slightly), R58 has its PID display on a cord which is a big turn off for me.

    All subjective of course. You should not go wrong with any of the 3.
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    Yep, in these three you're choosing between aesthetics, build quality and minor features like steam/hw rotary valves vs toggle levers. Otherwise, very little difference - all are rotary, dual boiler, PID controlled with E61 group.

    I can't speak to the Profitec or Rocket, but the design, build quality, materials and engineering of the ECM is exquisite.

    Note that while all have PID temperature control, the ECM and Profitec machines have separate control over steam and brew boilers (controlled via a single interface), I'm not familiar enough with the rocket to know how the steam temp is controlled. Similarly, the ECM has the option of turning off the steam boiler altogether - not sure whether this is also true of the others.

    I think your best bet is to fill in the 'contact sponsors' form and request a demo and quote for each machine. Have a play. Decide what you prefer and compare the actual quotes (not just feature lists and rrp on paper).
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    I recently purchased the Profitec 700 Pro after researching all of the available choices. I settled on the Profitec because of the build quality, PID control of both boilers, distance from the group to the drip tray is sufficient for pulling shots into mugs and glasses. A stainless stand that sits on the drip tray to raise the height for espresso cups is supplied with the machine. The steam valves are spring loaded, it took me a while to get used to them but now I love them.
    Good luck with your decision making.
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    Thanks everyone so far for the updates.Issue i have is that i live in Radelaide, meaning i cant get to the the major shops to check these out first hand.

    Unless someone knows where i can look at these in Adelaide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sacsnob View Post
    R58 has its PID display on a cord which is a big turn off for me.
    When you have programed your ideal temperatures, you just unplug the display and cord, and all you have is clean lines.

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    I know the Profitec 700 also has the ability to turn the steam boiler off as I was looking at that model.

    PS I know Javaphile was good enough to upload the manual for the Profitec 700 here on the site, would be worth downloading it and the others if you can get them.
    Last edited by 338; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:24 PM. Reason: add manual details

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    Thoughts so far though...
    This video is compelling
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hunFv7E51L8&t=34s

    I will say, im not that keen on the fact that you have to plug in a black bock to the rocket. Looks like a prototype rather than a finished product.
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    Senior Member Logga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggoosen View Post
    Thoughts so far though...
    This video is compelling
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hunFv7E51L8&t=34s

    I will say, im not that keen on the fact that you have to plug in a black bock to the rocket. Looks like a prototype rather than a finished product.
    Well there you go, you've just narrowed it down to 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logga View Post
    When you have programed your ideal temperatures, you just unplug the display and cord, and all you have is clean lines.
    I know its all subjective, it just does not work for me. Having the PID on the machine as a shot timer is more practical for me.


    2_large.png41277332.d398kpbi9x.W665.jpg

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    I have got a PID on my $1k Lelit and must say it is nice being able to adjust on the fly. I must say the Rocket solution surprises me and I agree with ggoosen it seems more prototype like, sort of an ad hoc solution to keep up with the competition.
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    Wow - Battle of the Titans.
    All 3 are great machines no doubt.
    My favourite (and most popular DB) is the Profitec Pro 700.
    Here are some great video reviews:
    7 minute review: https://youtu.be/-eS_Up9KXeE
    22 minute review: https://youtu.be/kiFw0SV24S8
    Feel free to call any time to talk through the differences.
    Cheers, Paul
    K Bean - Profitec
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    I am happy with my R58 (not the new model)
    But steaming milk is difficult. I get much better microform with my HX Rocket at work. The steam jet holes are better angled and/or it may be it has a better head of steam.
    The R58 comes with two steam nozzles. The 1.5 is too fast for me, so I use the 1.2 which gives me more time to stretch the milk.
    In comparison the HX Rocket is fast and makes great microfoam.
    I suggest you get some comments on the steaming capabilities of the three units you are considering.
    Of course I may not have set mine up correctly - it was bought locally through a nonsponsor so it was not tested and adjusted as was my HX which was bought from TalkCoffee and shipped to WA.
    Do buy from a serious sponsor who loves coffee and checks, tests and adjusts the purchase for you.
    Last edited by dumiya; 4 Weeks Ago at 07:37 AM. Reason: Grammar

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    The R58 was a great machine but the PID was horrible. I think it was designed to set temp then go back in a drawer but in reality you have to keep it hooked up to change from brew boiler only to having both boilers on. A wonky drip tray was another gripe. I changed to a Pro 700 this year and it's an upgrade. Visible PID, shot timer, easy switching from 1 to 2 boilers, better steaming, quieter pump and everything is just more refined and solid feeling. The Synchronika was also on my short list but I prefered the look of the Pro 700. The 2 German machines definitely win. I hope this helps you with your big $ decision buddy.
    JT

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    Quote Originally Posted by coffe4me2 View Post
    The R58 was a great machine but the PID was horrible. I think it was designed to set temp then go back in a drawer but in reality you have to keep it hooked up to change from brew boiler only to having both boilers on. A wonky drip tray was another gripe. I changed to a Pro 700 this year and it's an upgrade. Visible PID, shot timer, easy switching from 1 to 2 boilers, better steaming, quieter pump and everything is just more refined and solid feeling. The Synchronika was also on my short list but I prefered the look of the Pro 700. The 2 German machines definitely win. I hope this helps you with your big $ decision buddy.
    JT
    Thanks!

    Do you remember why you went for the Pro700 over the Synchronika? From what I understand both machines are in fact made by the same company?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ggoosen View Post
    Thanks!
    Do you remember why you went for the Pro700 over the Synchronika? From what I understand both machines are in fact made by the same company?
    Yeah. I think it's different companies using the same factories. Not sure though.

    Choosing was like splitting hairs. I got to see them side by side (thanks to K Bean) and Profitec won because of:
    - internet reviews with nothing but good stuff to say.
    - cleaner looks. Synchronika looks messy to me.
    - cup warmer that removes in one piece meaning that you don't have to tKe cups off to top up water.
    - no crush silky smooth valves
    - square valves matching squares in drip tray and cup warmer tray is a nice touch
    - better looking gauges I think.
    - PLUS a big thing was the Profitec grinder which is heaps better that the ECM grinder and matches up so nicely.
    Hope that helps more
    JT

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    Quote Originally Posted by dumiya View Post
    Do buy from a serious sponsor who loves coffee and checks, tests and adjusts the purchase for you.
    Or, a reputable, respected specialist retailer...

    Mal.

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    Of course. Don't shop the net for mr dodgy to save $100.
    For Melbournians let me give a HUGE shout out to Paul at K Bean for the most intimate customer service I have ever experienced. And no, not the creepy kind of intimate
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffe4me2 View Post
    Of course. Don't shop the net for mr dodgy to save $100.
    For Melbournians let me give a HUGE shout out to Paul at K Bean for the most intimate customer service I have ever experienced. And no, not the creepy kind of intimate
    Do tell! What sort of intimate if not the creepy kind?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    Do tell! What sort of intimate if not the creepy kind?
    Ha! Have no fear of inappropriate intimacy.

    I think what JT is getting at is that when you visit me it's more of a friendly social experience (yep, intimate) than a typical retailer/customer experience. That's become coffee is a hobby and passion first, business second.

    Sounds corny? yes it does, but it's true.

    Thanks for the shout out JT.

    Cheers, Paul

    K Bean Dream Machines
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    Hi ggoosen,

    I was wondering whether you had considered either of the Izzo dual boilers?

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    Paul, your reputation precedes you around these parts and I took Coffe4me2 heartfelt recommendation the right way - though there was just a second when I thought I had logged on to Tinder Snobs and was going to meet Paul, a handsome young coffee enthusiast.......

    Back to vicariously enjoying ggoosen's search

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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    .....I thought I had logged on to Tinder Snobs and was going to meet Paul, a handsome young coffee enthusiast...
    Ha! not Tinder Snobs and I'm not all that handsome

    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    Back to vicariously enjoying ggoosen's search
    That search is over - happy to report gg is going for a Profitec Pro 700 and Profitec Pro T64



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Or, a reputable, respected specialist retailer...

    Mal.
    Same/same. 😏
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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    Do tell! What sort of intimate if not the creepy kind?
    Let's not restart that conversation about early morning shots in the nude... Maybe that's why Paul's moved to a less, ah, reflective machine? 🤔

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    Quote Originally Posted by coffe4me2 View Post
    Yeah. I think it's different companies using the same factories. Not sure though.

    Choosing was like splitting hairs. I got to see them side by side (thanks to K Bean) and Profitec won because of:
    - internet reviews with nothing but good stuff to say.
    - cleaner looks. Synchronika looks messy to me.
    - cup warmer that removes in one piece meaning that you don't have to tKe cups off to top up water.
    - no crush silky smooth valves
    - square valves matching squares in drip tray and cup warmer tray is a nice touch
    - better looking gauges I think.
    - PLUS a big thing was the Profitec grinder which is heaps better that the ECM grinder and matches up so nicely.
    Hope that helps more
    JT
    My understanding is that Profitec and ECM are owned by the same umbrella company; ECM is their premium line assembled in Heidelberg, while Profitec is slightly cheaper and made entirely in Milan. Happy to be corrected on any details though!

    The ECM grinder is a funny design - I initially went for it to match the Synchronika, but upgraded to the V-Titan to get the funnel with removable cover and easy access to the chute. Near-zero grind retention without the hassle of single-dosing 😎
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Matt View Post
    My understanding is that Profitec and ECM are owned by the same umbrella company; ECM is their premium line assembled in Heidelberg, while Profitec is slightly cheaper and made entirely in Milan. Happy to be corrected on any details though!

    The ECM grinder is a funny design - I initially went for it to match the Synchronika, but upgraded to the V-Titan to get the funnel with removable cover and easy access to the chute. Near-zero grind retention without the hassle of single-dosing 
    After doing the research, there were a few things that helped me decide. Happy to share that here and hear others thoughts.
    It was more of a process of elimination than a clear cut winner. All 3 of these machines are dead set brilliant in their own right, which is why the call is close.

    First, My front runner was the R58. I guess the overall bold black dials, and Rocket name really resonated with me. Note, I may add weight to items that others don't really care about
    Points that swayed me on this.
    • Firstly the fact that the PID was a "bolt on attachment" didn't resonate, I'm sure there are plenty out there that prefer the look without any digital readout, but I am not one of them. I prefer the fact that i have the ability to see what is going on and don't want to be plugging in a separate controller for that.
    • PID attachment, whilst does let you control the temp, you have to use a conversion chart to get the temp at the brew head.
    • Secondly, the internals of the Rocket.
      • The first issue I had was that when compared to the other machines on my list, the rocket didn't seem to have spent as much time ensuring the internals are all neat, well placed and serviceable - small and potentially a moot point, but important to me none the less.
      • The boilers are copper in the R58, whilst there is nothing "wrong" with that per say, other than it's an old tried and tested method. I just felt the fact that the Stainless steel approach from the competitors was a newer innovation.
      • A final point on the internals, was the fact that the hard line and the reservoir were controlled via a solenoid, while the others had a manually switch. I do agree with the reviews online that this is an area that is hardly ever used and needs a robust switch. adding more electronics to the system just clutters the internals and introduces another place for failure.

    • One last item that came as a surprise to me was that the brew "switch/handle" is controlled via solenoid on the R58, meaning that when plumbed the switch is either on or off, meaning preinfusion is not possible. ie you cant move the handle half way and let mains pressure pre-infuse the puck.



    ECM
    My next option was the ECM, I liked the overall look of the ECM, and also like the "lever" switches on the steam and hot water as well as the mirror plate finish on the digital display.
    Points that swayed me on this.
    • There have been a few reports on the digital display chipping. In all fairness, this does seem to be an isolated case with a reasonable response from the manufacturer, but it did pose a question.
    • The "lever" switches on the steam wand and hot water, whilst and original "attraction" for me, became more of a question after comparing them to the Proftec. Concerns where are they as robust? Would they pinch? Are they Serviceable
    • Aesthetics
      • The ECM had more of a rounded off feel and look on the unit, which didn't really match the square look of the overall machine.
      • The cup tray didn't have a removable outer rail and tray
      • Dials were higher up (i prefer them lower down)


    Profitec
    My final option was the Profitec, most of the "issues" i found in the other machines were not issue in the profitec, in fact, I found myself comparing the others to this machine and saying "that doesn't work like the profitec does". Many items are common in the profitec as they are in the ECM so that made the race even closer
    • I liked the fact that the design of the valves are squared off to the machine,
    • The machine overall had a single chassis
    • Internally the machine was put together really well, logical and serviceable
    • There is a manual switch for the reservoir/hard plumb line.
    • You can pre-infuse with the toggle to have full control of your brew
    • The workmanship on these machines is excellent.
    • It has a shot timer
    • The price point on this machine was slightly better than the ECM, at this price we are really splitting hairs, but the machine + grinder combo is great.
    • Finally deal winner for me was the steam and hot water valves, being spring loaded and had less chance of seal being pinched.



    As I stated in the beginning, the showdown was between 3 amazing machines, and picking a winner ultimately came down to preference.

    Great info from Whole Latta Love youtube channel as well as a shout out to Paul from KBean for the calls and info. Its not often that you get an unbiased opionion from a retailer, but i guess we are lucky to have a fellow snob running a coffee machine sales business
    Last edited by ggoosen; 3 Weeks Ago at 12:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Matt View Post
    ......Happy to be corrected on any details though!
    Friendly correction incoming Matt...

    To the best of my knowledge ECM and Profitec machines and grinders are designed in Germany, with the machines being made in the same factory in Milan and the grinders being made in the same factory in Germany. You can see the family resemblances in spec sheets and also, when viewing the machines side by side.

    ECM and Profitec quality, inside and out, is on par at the high end. Pricing is also similar. Differences are in the design, styling and branding.

    I hope this helps a little.

    Cheers, Paul
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  31. #31
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    Well done, now enjoy

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    Nice choice - Congrats Goosey !!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggoosen View Post
    ......One last item that came as a surprise to me was that the brew "switch/handle" is controlled via solenoid on the R58, meaning that when plumbed the switch is either on or off, meaning preinfusion is not possible. ie you cant move the handle half way and let mains pressure pre-infuse the puck.
    That's one HUGE advantage of the Profitec Pro 700 and ECM Synkronika. Without being plumbed in these 2 machines can pre-wet and when plumbed in they can pre-infuse.
    Quote Originally Posted by ggoosen View Post
    Great info from Whole Latta Love youtube channel as well as a shout out to Paul from KBean for the calls and info. Its not often that you get an unbiased opionion from a retailer, but i guess we are lucky to have a fellow snob running a coffee machine sales business
    Huge thanks for the shout out - Enjoy your new toys
    K Bean - Profitec
    K Bean - ECM
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    Welcome to the club goosey!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ggoosen View Post
    After doing the research, there were a few things that helped me decide. Happy to share that here and hear others thoughts.
    It was more of a process of elimination than a clear cut winner. All 3 of these machines are dead set brilliant in their own right, which is why the call is close.

    First, My front runner was the R58. I guess the overall bold black dials, and Rocket name really resonated with me. Note, I may add weight to items that others don't really care about
    Points that swayed me on this.
    • Firstly the fact that the PID was a "bolt on attachment" didn't resonate, I'm sure there are plenty out there that prefer the look without any digital readout, but I am not one of them. I prefer the fact that i have the ability to see what is going on and don't want to be plugging in a separate controller for that.
    • PID attachment, whilst does let you control the temp, you have to use a conversion chart to get the temp at the brew head.
    • Secondly, the internals of the Rocket.
      • The first issue I had was that when compared to the other machines on my list, the rocket didn't seem to have spent as much time ensuring the internals are all neat, well placed and serviceable - small and potentially a moot point, but important to me none the less.
      • The boilers are copper in the R58, whilst there is nothing "wrong" with that per say, other than it's an old tried and tested method. I just felt the fact that the Stainless steel approach from the competitors was a newer innovation.
      • A final point on the internals, was the fact that the hard line and the reservoir were controlled via a solenoid, while the others had a manually switch. I do agree with the reviews online that this is an area that is hardly ever used and needs a robust switch. adding more electronics to the system just clutters the internals and introduces another place for failure.

    • One last item that came as a surprise to me was that the brew "switch/handle" is controlled via solenoid on the R58, meaning that when plumbed the switch is either on or off, meaning preinfusion is not possible. ie you cant move the handle half way and let mains pressure pre-infuse the puck.



    ECM
    My next option was the ECM, I liked the overall look of the ECM, and also like the "lever" switches on the steam and hot water as well as the mirror plate finish on the digital display.
    Points that swayed me on this.
    • There have been a few reports on the digital display chipping. In all fairness, this does seem to be an isolated case with a reasonable response from the manufacturer, but it did pose a question.
    • The "lever" switches on the steam wand and hot water, whilst and original "attraction" for me, became more of a question after comparing them to the Proftec. Concerns where are they as robust? Would they pinch? Are they Serviceable
    • Aesthetics
      • The ECM had more of a rounded off feel and look on the unit, which didn't really match the square look of the overall machine.
      • The cup tray didn't have a removable outer rail and tray
      • Dials were higher up (i prefer them lower down)


    Profitec
    My final option was the Profitec, most of the "issues" i found in the other machines were not issue in the profitec, in fact, I found myself comparing the others to this machine and saying "that doesn't work like the profitec does". Many items are common in the profitec as they are in the ECM so that made the race even closer
    • I liked the fact that the design of the valves are squared off to the machine,
    • The machine overall had a single chassis
    • Internally the machine was put together really well, logical and serviceable
    • There is a manual switch for the reservoir/hard plumb line.
    • You can pre-infuse with the toggle to have full control of your brew
    • The workmanship on these machines is excellent.
    • It has a shot timer
    • The price point on this machine was slightly better than the ECM, at this price we are really splitting hairs, but the machine + grinder combo is great.
    • Finally deal winner for me was the steam and hot water valves, being spring loaded and had less chance of seal being pinched.



    As I stated in the beginning, the showdown was between 3 amazing machines, and picking a winner ultimately came down to preference.

    Great info from Whole Latta Love youtube channel as well as a shout out to Paul from KBean for the calls and info. Its not often that you get an unbiased opionion from a retailer, but i guess we are lucky to have a fellow snob running a coffee machine sales business
    Great post, this should be a sticky for people choosing between these three!

    The lack of line-pressure preinfusion is a huge difference! I had been under the impression this was an option on the Rocket. I'd experimented with "ghetto" preinfusion while running my Synchonika on the tank, by 'pulsing' the pump; since plumbing in I've used a 10-15 second line-pressure preinfusion and the evenness of extraction and results in the cup have certainly improved. When I get a particularly nice extraction I'll post some video.

    Welcome to Club Milan™ 😉

  36. #36
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    If you're comparing purely technical aspects, feel free to check out this spreadsheet I created comparing those 3 (among others): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

  37. #37
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    Great work Tanax, thanks for sharing
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  38. #38
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
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    I'm surprised the Synchronika is 4.5kg heavier than the Pro 700
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    I'm surprised the Synchronika is 4.5kg heavier than the Pro 700
    Yeh me too, just got delivery today and the pro700 is pretty heavy.

    Happy as Larry though with my choice


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  40. #40
    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    N i c e ! ! ! 👍
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  41. #41
    Site Sponsor K_Bean_Coffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanax View Post
    If you're comparing purely technical aspects, feel free to check out this spreadsheet....
    Great work Tanax
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  42. #42
    Site Sponsor K_Bean_Coffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggoosen View Post
    Happy as Larry though with my choice
    ....and Larry is a pretty happy guy so that's sayin' something

    Seriously though, congrats and thanks for choosing K Bean. Now enjoy enjoy and enjoy

    Cheers,
    Paul
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  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanax View Post
    If you're comparing purely technical aspects, feel free to check out this spreadsheet I created comparing those 3 (among others): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
    Any way we can assist updating the SS?

    Profitec has 4 tip steam wand and no burn on steam wand and hot water.

    Also, worth adding comparison of "pre-infusion"
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  44. #44
    Site Sponsor K_Bean_Coffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggoosen View Post
    Also, worth adding comparison of "pre-infusion"
    ...pre-infusion for ECM and Profitec a key differentiator to Rocket, so I agree it would be great to add this info to your spreadsheet Tanax.
    Cheers, Paul
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    ...pre-infusion for ECM and Profitec a key differentiator to Rocket, so I agree it would be great to add this info to your spreadsheet Tanax.
    Cheers, Paul
    Paul, I'm I correct to assume it works with line pressure as well as water storage?

    During testing today of you half cock the lever water does come out?

    Somehow I was thinking that would only work when Plumbed

  46. #46
    Site Sponsor K_Bean_Coffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggoosen View Post
    Paul, I'm I correct to assume it works with line pressure as well as water storage?
    From the water tank you get a slow water flow. This is known as pre-wetting. When plumbed you get pre-infusion at mains pressure.

    Click here to see a slow, gloopy extraction using plumbed preinfusion.

    Cheers, Paul
    K Bean Dream Machines
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  47. #47
    Marcus
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    Thank you all for your kind comments
    The spreadsheet will of course be updated with all relevant comparison information.

    Quote Originally Posted by ggoosen View Post
    Any way we can assist updating the SS?

    Profitec has 4 tip steam wand and no burn on steam wand and hot water.

    Also, worth adding comparison of "pre-infusion"
    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    ...pre-infusion for ECM and Profitec a key differentiator to Rocket, so I agree it would be great to add this info to your spreadsheet Tanax.
    Cheers, Paul
    Could you kindly explain how these work/differs from each other? Am happy to update the spreadsheet as long as I understand what it is
    If it's considered off topic, feel free to send me a private message
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  48. #48
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    I recently purchased the Pro700, after deliberating between it and the R58. Rocket certainly does have better marketing and brand image, however I believe the Profitec is better laid out, and the shot timer is very handy.
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  49. #49
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    The only slight downside with the manual valve, switching between mains water or reservoir, is that there is no check valve. I found this out the hard way, when I bumped the lever, and it drained the tank all over my bench...
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  50. #50
    Site Sponsor K_Bean_Coffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanax View Post
    Could you kindly explain how these work/differs from each other? Am happy to update the spreadsheet as long as I understand what it is .....
    Hi there, that calls for a phone call. Call me any time on 0416528339 and I'll explain

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