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Thread: Rocket R58 vs Profitec 700 vs ECM Synchronika

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    Rocket R58 vs Profitec 700 vs ECM Synchronika

    Hi, fellow snobs.

    The time has come to finally get rid of the Breville DB and move onto my ideal machine.

    So far I have been looking at the following

    Rocket R58 (2017 version)
    Profitec 700
    ECM Synchronika

    From my perspective, there are a few things i would like to have in a coffee machine (based on my experience so far)
    Dual Boiler,
    Must be able to be hard plumbed, or reservoir
    PID would be nice

    What are peoples thoughts on the above machines?

    Regards
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    Nice choice to have! I would say at that pricepoint you may as well get a PID, you are likely to keep the machine years so no point wondering if it would be handy. I know at least one machine, the Profitec, has it standard.
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    A very nice selection indeed.. and I am pretty sure that they all come with PID etc so the majority of your boxes ticked.. the end choice will most likely just come down to aesthetics and whether you prefer toggles or knobs. Enjoy the experience

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    Personally I'd choose Profitec over the other two DBs. ECM should be very similar to Profitec internally given they are literally 1 company however its more expensive (slightly), R58 has its PID display on a cord which is a big turn off for me.

    All subjective of course. You should not go wrong with any of the 3.
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    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Yep, in these three you're choosing between aesthetics, build quality and minor features like steam/hw rotary valves vs toggle levers. Otherwise, very little difference - all are rotary, dual boiler, PID controlled with E61 group.

    I can't speak to the Profitec or Rocket, but the design, build quality, materials and engineering of the ECM is exquisite.

    Note that while all have PID temperature control, the ECM and Profitec machines have separate control over steam and brew boilers (controlled via a single interface), I'm not familiar enough with the rocket to know how the steam temp is controlled. Similarly, the ECM has the option of turning off the steam boiler altogether - not sure whether this is also true of the others.

    I think your best bet is to fill in the 'contact sponsors' form and request a demo and quote for each machine. Have a play. Decide what you prefer and compare the actual quotes (not just feature lists and rrp on paper).
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    I recently purchased the Profitec 700 Pro after researching all of the available choices. I settled on the Profitec because of the build quality, PID control of both boilers, distance from the group to the drip tray is sufficient for pulling shots into mugs and glasses. A stainless stand that sits on the drip tray to raise the height for espresso cups is supplied with the machine. The steam valves are spring loaded, it took me a while to get used to them but now I love them.
    Good luck with your decision making.
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    Thanks everyone so far for the updates.Issue i have is that i live in Radelaide, meaning i cant get to the the major shops to check these out first hand.

    Unless someone knows where i can look at these in Adelaide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sacsnob View Post
    R58 has its PID display on a cord which is a big turn off for me.
    When you have programed your ideal temperatures, you just unplug the display and cord, and all you have is clean lines.

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    I know the Profitec 700 also has the ability to turn the steam boiler off as I was looking at that model.

    PS I know Javaphile was good enough to upload the manual for the Profitec 700 here on the site, would be worth downloading it and the others if you can get them.
    Last edited by 338; 31st May 2017 at 03:24 PM. Reason: add manual details

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    Thoughts so far though...
    This video is compelling
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hunFv7E51L8&t=34s

    I will say, im not that keen on the fact that you have to plug in a black bock to the rocket. Looks like a prototype rather than a finished product.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggoosen View Post
    Thoughts so far though...
    This video is compelling
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hunFv7E51L8&t=34s

    I will say, im not that keen on the fact that you have to plug in a black bock to the rocket. Looks like a prototype rather than a finished product.
    Well there you go, you've just narrowed it down to 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logga View Post
    When you have programed your ideal temperatures, you just unplug the display and cord, and all you have is clean lines.
    I know its all subjective, it just does not work for me. Having the PID on the machine as a shot timer is more practical for me.


    2_large.png41277332.d398kpbi9x.W665.jpg

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    I have got a PID on my $1k Lelit and must say it is nice being able to adjust on the fly. I must say the Rocket solution surprises me and I agree with ggoosen it seems more prototype like, sort of an ad hoc solution to keep up with the competition.
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    I am happy with my R58 (not the new model)
    But steaming milk is difficult. I get much better microform with my HX Rocket at work. The steam jet holes are better angled and/or it may be it has a better head of steam.
    The R58 comes with two steam nozzles. The 1.5 is too fast for me, so I use the 1.2 which gives me more time to stretch the milk.
    In comparison the HX Rocket is fast and makes great microfoam.
    I suggest you get some comments on the steaming capabilities of the three units you are considering.
    Of course I may not have set mine up correctly - it was bought locally through a nonsponsor so it was not tested and adjusted as was my HX which was bought from TalkCoffee and shipped to WA.
    Do buy from a serious sponsor who loves coffee and checks, tests and adjusts the purchase for you.
    Last edited by dumiya; 1st June 2017 at 06:37 AM. Reason: Grammar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffe4me2 View Post
    The R58 was a great machine but the PID was horrible. I think it was designed to set temp then go back in a drawer but in reality you have to keep it hooked up to change from brew boiler only to having both boilers on. A wonky drip tray was another gripe. I changed to a Pro 700 this year and it's an upgrade. Visible PID, shot timer, easy switching from 1 to 2 boilers, better steaming, quieter pump and everything is just more refined and solid feeling. The Synchronika was also on my short list but I prefered the look of the Pro 700. The 2 German machines definitely win. I hope this helps you with your big $ decision buddy.
    JT
    Thanks!

    Do you remember why you went for the Pro700 over the Synchronika? From what I understand both machines are in fact made by the same company?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dumiya View Post
    Do buy from a serious sponsor who loves coffee and checks, tests and adjusts the purchase for you.
    Or, a reputable, respected specialist retailer...

    Mal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coffe4me2 View Post
    Of course. Don't shop the net for mr dodgy to save $100.
    For Melbournians let me give a HUGE shout out to Paul at K Bean for the most intimate customer service I have ever experienced. And no, not the creepy kind of intimate
    Do tell! What sort of intimate if not the creepy kind?
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    Hi ggoosen,

    I was wondering whether you had considered either of the Izzo dual boilers?

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    Paul, your reputation precedes you around these parts and I took Coffe4me2 heartfelt recommendation the right way - though there was just a second when I thought I had logged on to Tinder Snobs and was going to meet Paul, a handsome young coffee enthusiast.......

    Back to vicariously enjoying ggoosen's search
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Or, a reputable, respected specialist retailer...

    Mal.
    Same/same. 😏
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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    Do tell! What sort of intimate if not the creepy kind?
    Let's not restart that conversation about early morning shots in the nude... Maybe that's why Paul's moved to a less, ah, reflective machine? 🤔
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffe4me2 View Post
    Yeah. I think it's different companies using the same factories. Not sure though.

    Choosing was like splitting hairs. I got to see them side by side (thanks to K Bean) and Profitec won because of:
    - internet reviews with nothing but good stuff to say.
    - cleaner looks. Synchronika looks messy to me.
    - cup warmer that removes in one piece meaning that you don't have to tKe cups off to top up water.
    - no crush silky smooth valves
    - square valves matching squares in drip tray and cup warmer tray is a nice touch
    - better looking gauges I think.
    - PLUS a big thing was the Profitec grinder which is heaps better that the ECM grinder and matches up so nicely.
    Hope that helps more
    JT
    My understanding is that Profitec and ECM are owned by the same umbrella company; ECM is their premium line assembled in Heidelberg, while Profitec is slightly cheaper and made entirely in Milan. Happy to be corrected on any details though!

    The ECM grinder is a funny design - I initially went for it to match the Synchronika, but upgraded to the V-Titan to get the funnel with removable cover and easy access to the chute. Near-zero grind retention without the hassle of single-dosing 😎
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Matt View Post
    My understanding is that Profitec and ECM are owned by the same umbrella company; ECM is their premium line assembled in Heidelberg, while Profitec is slightly cheaper and made entirely in Milan. Happy to be corrected on any details though!

    The ECM grinder is a funny design - I initially went for it to match the Synchronika, but upgraded to the V-Titan to get the funnel with removable cover and easy access to the chute. Near-zero grind retention without the hassle of single-dosing 
    After doing the research, there were a few things that helped me decide. Happy to share that here and hear others thoughts.
    It was more of a process of elimination than a clear cut winner. All 3 of these machines are dead set brilliant in their own right, which is why the call is close.

    First, My front runner was the R58. I guess the overall bold black dials, and Rocket name really resonated with me. Note, I may add weight to items that others don't really care about
    Points that swayed me on this.
    • Firstly the fact that the PID was a "bolt on attachment" didn't resonate, I'm sure there are plenty out there that prefer the look without any digital readout, but I am not one of them. I prefer the fact that i have the ability to see what is going on and don't want to be plugging in a separate controller for that.
    • PID attachment, whilst does let you control the temp, you have to use a conversion chart to get the temp at the brew head.
    • Secondly, the internals of the Rocket.
      • The first issue I had was that when compared to the other machines on my list, the rocket didn't seem to have spent as much time ensuring the internals are all neat, well placed and serviceable - small and potentially a moot point, but important to me none the less.
      • The boilers are copper in the R58, whilst there is nothing "wrong" with that per say, other than it's an old tried and tested method. I just felt the fact that the Stainless steel approach from the competitors was a newer innovation.
      • A final point on the internals, was the fact that the hard line and the reservoir were controlled via a solenoid, while the others had a manually switch. I do agree with the reviews online that this is an area that is hardly ever used and needs a robust switch. adding more electronics to the system just clutters the internals and introduces another place for failure.

    • One last item that came as a surprise to me was that the brew "switch/handle" is controlled via solenoid on the R58, meaning that when plumbed the switch is either on or off, meaning preinfusion is not possible. ie you cant move the handle half way and let mains pressure pre-infuse the puck.



    ECM
    My next option was the ECM, I liked the overall look of the ECM, and also like the "lever" switches on the steam and hot water as well as the mirror plate finish on the digital display.
    Points that swayed me on this.
    • There have been a few reports on the digital display chipping. In all fairness, this does seem to be an isolated case with a reasonable response from the manufacturer, but it did pose a question.
    • The "lever" switches on the steam wand and hot water, whilst and original "attraction" for me, became more of a question after comparing them to the Proftec. Concerns where are they as robust? Would they pinch? Are they Serviceable
    • Aesthetics
      • The ECM had more of a rounded off feel and look on the unit, which didn't really match the square look of the overall machine.
      • The cup tray didn't have a removable outer rail and tray
      • Dials were higher up (i prefer them lower down)


    Profitec
    My final option was the Profitec, most of the "issues" i found in the other machines were not issue in the profitec, in fact, I found myself comparing the others to this machine and saying "that doesn't work like the profitec does". Many items are common in the profitec as they are in the ECM so that made the race even closer
    • I liked the fact that the design of the valves are squared off to the machine,
    • The machine overall had a single chassis
    • Internally the machine was put together really well, logical and serviceable
    • There is a manual switch for the reservoir/hard plumb line.
    • You can pre-infuse with the toggle to have full control of your brew
    • The workmanship on these machines is excellent.
    • It has a shot timer
    • The price point on this machine was slightly better than the ECM, at this price we are really splitting hairs, but the machine + grinder combo is great.
    • Finally deal winner for me was the steam and hot water valves, being spring loaded and had less chance of seal being pinched.



    As I stated in the beginning, the showdown was between 3 amazing machines, and picking a winner ultimately came down to preference.

    Great info from Whole Latta Love youtube channel as well as a shout out to Paul from b for the calls and info. Its not often that you get an unbiased opionion from a retailer, but i guess we are lucky to have a fellow snob running a coffee machine sales business
    Last edited by ggoosen; 2nd June 2017 at 11:31 AM.

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    Well done, now enjoy
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    Welcome to the club goosey!!!!!
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    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggoosen View Post
    After doing the research, there were a few things that helped me decide. Happy to share that here and hear others thoughts.
    It was more of a process of elimination than a clear cut winner. All 3 of these machines are dead set brilliant in their own right, which is why the call is close.

    First, My front runner was the R58. I guess the overall bold black dials, and Rocket name really resonated with me. Note, I may add weight to items that others don't really care about
    Points that swayed me on this.
    • Firstly the fact that the PID was a "bolt on attachment" didn't resonate, I'm sure there are plenty out there that prefer the look without any digital readout, but I am not one of them. I prefer the fact that i have the ability to see what is going on and don't want to be plugging in a separate controller for that.
    • PID attachment, whilst does let you control the temp, you have to use a conversion chart to get the temp at the brew head.
    • Secondly, the internals of the Rocket.
      • The first issue I had was that when compared to the other machines on my list, the rocket didn't seem to have spent as much time ensuring the internals are all neat, well placed and serviceable - small and potentially a moot point, but important to me none the less.
      • The boilers are copper in the R58, whilst there is nothing "wrong" with that per say, other than it's an old tried and tested method. I just felt the fact that the Stainless steel approach from the competitors was a newer innovation.
      • A final point on the internals, was the fact that the hard line and the reservoir were controlled via a solenoid, while the others had a manually switch. I do agree with the reviews online that this is an area that is hardly ever used and needs a robust switch. adding more electronics to the system just clutters the internals and introduces another place for failure.

    • One last item that came as a surprise to me was that the brew "switch/handle" is controlled via solenoid on the R58, meaning that when plumbed the switch is either on or off, meaning preinfusion is not possible. ie you cant move the handle half way and let mains pressure pre-infuse the puck.



    ECM
    My next option was the ECM, I liked the overall look of the ECM, and also like the "lever" switches on the steam and hot water as well as the mirror plate finish on the digital display.
    Points that swayed me on this.
    • There have been a few reports on the digital display chipping. In all fairness, this does seem to be an isolated case with a reasonable response from the manufacturer, but it did pose a question.
    • The "lever" switches on the steam wand and hot water, whilst and original "attraction" for me, became more of a question after comparing them to the Proftec. Concerns where are they as robust? Would they pinch? Are they Serviceable
    • Aesthetics
      • The ECM had more of a rounded off feel and look on the unit, which didn't really match the square look of the overall machine.
      • The cup tray didn't have a removable outer rail and tray
      • Dials were higher up (i prefer them lower down)


    Profitec
    My final option was the Profitec, most of the "issues" i found in the other machines were not issue in the profitec, in fact, I found myself comparing the others to this machine and saying "that doesn't work like the profitec does". Many items are common in the profitec as they are in the ECM so that made the race even closer
    • I liked the fact that the design of the valves are squared off to the machine,
    • The machine overall had a single chassis
    • Internally the machine was put together really well, logical and serviceable
    • There is a manual switch for the reservoir/hard plumb line.
    • You can pre-infuse with the toggle to have full control of your brew
    • The workmanship on these machines is excellent.
    • It has a shot timer
    • The price point on this machine was slightly better than the ECM, at this price we are really splitting hairs, but the machine + grinder combo is great.
    • Finally deal winner for me was the steam and hot water valves, being spring loaded and had less chance of seal being pinched.



    As I stated in the beginning, the showdown was between 3 amazing machines, and picking a winner ultimately came down to preference.

    Great info from Whole Latta Love youtube channel as well as a shout out to Paul from b for the calls and info. Its not often that you get an unbiased opionion from a retailer, but i guess we are lucky to have a fellow snob running a coffee machine sales business
    Great post, this should be a sticky for people choosing between these three!

    The lack of line-pressure preinfusion is a huge difference! I had been under the impression this was an option on the Rocket. I'd experimented with "ghetto" preinfusion while running my Synchonika on the tank, by 'pulsing' the pump; since plumbing in I've used a 10-15 second line-pressure preinfusion and the evenness of extraction and results in the cup have certainly improved. When I get a particularly nice extraction I'll post some video.

    Welcome to Club Milan™ 😉
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  27. #27
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    If you're comparing purely technical aspects, feel free to check out this spreadsheet I created comparing those 3 (among others): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

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    Great work Tanax, thanks for sharing
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    I'm surprised the Synchronika is 4.5kg heavier than the Pro 700
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    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    I'm surprised the Synchronika is 4.5kg heavier than the Pro 700
    Yeh me too, just got delivery today and the pro700 is pretty heavy.

    Happy as Larry though with my choice


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    N i c e ! ! ! 👍
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanax View Post
    If you're comparing purely technical aspects, feel free to check out this spreadsheet I created comparing those 3 (among others): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
    Any way we can assist updating the SS?

    Profitec has 4 tip steam wand and no burn on steam wand and hot water.

    Also, worth adding comparison of "pre-infusion"
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    ...pre-infusion for ECM and Profitec a key differentiator to Rocket, so I agree it would be great to add this info to your spreadsheet Tanax.
    Cheers, Paul
    Paul, I'm I correct to assume it works with line pressure as well as water storage?

    During testing today of you half cock the lever water does come out?

    Somehow I was thinking that would only work when Plumbed

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    Thank you all for your kind comments
    The spreadsheet will of course be updated with all relevant comparison information.

    Quote Originally Posted by ggoosen View Post
    Any way we can assist updating the SS?

    Profitec has 4 tip steam wand and no burn on steam wand and hot water.

    Also, worth adding comparison of "pre-infusion"
    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    ...pre-infusion for ECM and Profitec a key differentiator to Rocket, so I agree it would be great to add this info to your spreadsheet Tanax.
    Cheers, Paul
    Could you kindly explain how these work/differs from each other? Am happy to update the spreadsheet as long as I understand what it is
    If it's considered off topic, feel free to send me a private message
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    I recently purchased the Pro700, after deliberating between it and the R58. Rocket certainly does have better marketing and brand image, however I believe the Profitec is better laid out, and the shot timer is very handy.
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    The only slight downside with the manual valve, switching between mains water or reservoir, is that there is no check valve. I found this out the hard way, when I bumped the lever, and it drained the tank all over my bench...
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    Hi there, that calls for a phone call. Call me any time on 0416528339 and I'll explain
    Big cost to call an Australian mobile from Sweden!
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    Hi there, that calls for a phone call. Call me any time on 0416528339 and I'll explain
    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    Big cost to call an Australian mobile from Sweden!
    Being located in Sweden, I think it's a tad too costy for me
    I can google around some to find information when I have the spare time for it Thank you for the offer though!

    How did you know, 338, where I am located?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanax View Post
    How did you know, 338, where I am located?
    My friends at the NSA told me. I assumed because of the SEK first column that only a Swede would need the price in Swedish Krona, of course you could have been a recent transplant somewhere who had a need to calculate everything in their home countries currency

    Pre infusion and Pre wetting isn't that big a subject in relation to the table, I am sure someone here is capable of summarising it into two short paragraphs. I won't because I am not familiar enough with the machines in question, but the rough idea is one wets the coffee puck before the pour/extraction, the other wets the coffee puck under light pressure before the pour/extraction. The idea is to get a better extraction with less channelling, etc. I am sure someone else will give a better summary, but gives you the very general idea. Expensive phone call saved!
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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    My friends at the NSA told me. I assumed because of the SEK first column that only a Swede would need the price in Swedish Krona, of course you could have been a recent transplant somewhere who had a need to calculate everything in their home countries currency

    Pre infusion and Pre wetting isn't that big a subject in relation to the table, I am sure someone here is capable of summarising it into two short paragraphs. I won't because I am not familiar enough with the machines in question, but the rough idea is one wets the coffee puck before the pour/extraction, the other wets the coffee puck under light pressure before the pour/extraction. The idea is to get a better extraction with less channelling, etc. I am sure someone else will give a better summary, but gives you the very general idea. Expensive phone call saved!
    I think that's a great summary.

    But as I understand it, both Profitec and ECM support both of these 'modes' (line pressure preinfusion if plumbed in, boiler pressure (?) pre-wetting if on tank.

    I'm not sure how the Rocket R58 works - people have suggested in the past it can be set up to have the same behaviour, but ggoosen's post suggests this isn't the case and the R58 doesn't support preinfusion or pre-wetting. 🤔
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  41. #41
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
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    Every standard e61 group head has "built in" mechanical pre-infusion of 6 or so seconds.
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  42. #42
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    I find the e61 prefusion adequate and automatic. Being part of the design allows me to get on with making excellent coffee.
    Now the grinders are run in I have no channeling.
    That said I wish I could steam the milk as easily on the R58 as I can on the HX Rockets. Unfortunately the nozzles are not interchangeable so I can't do a comparison to see if it is the pressure or the nozzle hole angles that make one markably better than the other.
    I think others have posted this frustration.
    Last edited by dumiya; 9th June 2017 at 01:59 PM. Reason: Spelling

  43. #43
    Senior Member Logga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumiya View Post
    I find the e61 prefusion adequate and automatic. Being part of the design allows me to get on with making excellent coffee.
    Now the grinders are run in I have no channeling.
    That said I wish I could steam the milk as easily on the R58 as I can on the HX Rockets. Unfortunately the nozzles are not interchangeable so I can't do a comparison to see if it is the pressure or the nozzle hole angles that make one markably better than the other.
    I think others have posted this frustration.
    I had a R60V and couldn’t seem to get the milk just rite, it was not bad but not as good as my previous HX rocket, with my new machine it’s awesome, it has a four hole tip compared to the rocket two hole tip, and more steam power.
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  44. #44
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    Love my Sync, gets a good workout at home
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  45. #45
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
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    https://youtu.be/pL3Aqg-8wUc


    Is this the "pre-infusion" "pre-wetting" that the R58 cannot do? or have I completely missed the point? Thought I'd avago on the plumbed, un-modded R58 that I have regular use of ;-) whilst mini servicing it yesterday. Why not wet the freshly ground coffee, in situ, in the porta fliter under a running tap, prior to locking it in the group head, if the need to pre-wet is OCD?Just a thought.
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  46. #46
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    Looks like it opened valve without turning on the pump. At least I could not hear a pump. It of course won't work with the reservoir as the head of water is too low. I can't actually see the point of it for normal use making coffees for the family!
    I think this 'prewetting' was partly calculated in the e61 prefusion. All interesting stuff.
    Like the PID on the cable. I set the temps put it away and use the same beans and all is good!
    How dull and boring you say - probably
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  47. #47
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    Oh, by the way. I spent some focused time steaming with my R58. I just did it properly and got consistent micro foam and delightfully thickerpned milk - happy wife, happy life .
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  48. #48
    Marcus
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    If the E61 group head has this built-in out of the box, what is then the difference with preinfusion between the 3 machines?
    I mean, if they are the same, why do you want me to include it in the spreadsheet? Just for informational purposes?
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  49. #49
    Marcus
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    Hang in there Tanax. I'll write a little guide soon. I'll probably start a new thread.
    Cheers, Paul
    Sorry for being so impatient Thanks Paul!
    For the record, my name is Marcus Maybe I should write that somewhere in my profile :P
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  50. #50
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    Goin from the barista express to one of those! Should be a partaaaay for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by ggoosen View Post
    Hi, fellow snobs.

    The time has come to finally get rid of the Breville DB and move onto my ideal machine.

    So far I have been looking at the following

    Rocket R58 (2017 version)
    Profitec 700
    ECM Synchronika

    From my perspective, there are a few things i would like to have in a coffee machine (based on my experience so far)
    Dual Boiler,
    Must be able to be hard plumbed, or reservoir
    PID would be nice

    What are peoples thoughts on the above machines?

    Regards
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