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Thread: two pump or not two pump?

  1. #1
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    two pump or not two pump?

    Guys,
    Hi to all-totally new in here to the site and the forum process-so if this isn't the correct way to go please advise.
    I am looking my first true espresso machine. I have a budget of up to $3,500, but like anyone, I'd love to spend less if I can.
    I have an old ceramic conical burr grinder, which I realize will need an upgrade too-so possibly considering 'packaging' now to maximize savings.
    My 'wants' were rotary pump and e61 grouphead.
    I have done a lot of research and have two main machines in mind now. They the Bezzera Mitica TOP, and the La Pavoni Giotto (yeah read the hate here; but that all seems political-the La Pavoni machine is clearly great, reviews really well elsewhere and YES!- I will sleep perfectly soundly thanks )
    Then I started reading about double boilers. It is clearly the last great step up, and is reflected in price.
    So a new machine I became aware of is the Quickmill 2 boiler QM67 with PID-EVO ($3500)...but has a vibration pump.
    My main question therefore is would those of you who know more than I go for a dual boiler with a vibration pump over a single boiler with a rotary pump?
    I am not prepared to go the $4k+ to get the lot (Rotary pump, e61 group, dual boiler).
    For what it is worth, although I am really into my coffee, the machine will on average make between 0 and 4 cups of coffee a day. (obviously, when the coffee mates are around, it'll get a hammering, but that won't really be even a weekly occurrence).
    I am happy for advice or direction on other machines, and would consider a (really
    good) second hand one too. As far as suppliers go- I live in Geelong.
    Thanks and regards all.
    Last edited by Beaninlove; 17th February 2018 at 10:44 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Lukemc's Avatar
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    Do you drink espresso or milk coffees? If milk i wouldnít worry about the dual boiler. Send a quote off to all sponsors. Someone will get back to you. Anthony at Casa has both bezerra and lapavs. Not sure if thereís a local sponsor in Geelong but I think he is in Brighton. Would be with the drive if heís closest?

  3. #3
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    Mostly espresso, but not by a mile though- probably 60/40 espresso/milk.
    At the risk of further exposing my newbie-ness, how would I send quotes to sponsors-just manually contacting each of them?
    (driving a while to get a good machine and deal doesn't bother me at all ).
    My best quote thus far on the Bezzera is $3100 (which seems good, and is in Geelong too), and that same distributor is about to take stock on the LaPav, so I don't have a real quote there yet.
    Thanks for the reply too.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Lukemc's Avatar
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    If your accessing the site on a laptop/browser thereís a contact button at the bottom of the page I think.

  5. #5
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    The Quote Form link, which will send your request for a quote to all sponsors, can be found at the top and bottom of all pages.


    Java "FYI" phile
    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

  6. #6
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    I reckon once you are spending $2k plus, all the machines will be capable of fantastic coffee with the right ingredients and technique. The difference come down to preferences in looks, feel etc, even in minor detail designs etc. Best to check a few out in the flesh and see what you like the look and feel of. You cant really go wrong in my opinion.

    I have had amazing coffee from a cheap single boiler, and the results out of a dual boiler PID I now have is not vastly different. Yes it is much nicer to use and look at but end result differences can be small.

    Re vib v rotary, some vibe pumps are quite quiet, some are quite noisy. Main difference in rotary pump is the lack of noise and the feel of refinement compared to vibe. But some vibes these days are well setup and quiet. Rotary can also be plumbed in (machine dependent) if you ever want to go that way.

    Cheers
    Dimal, greenman and matth3wh like this.

  7. #7
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    Dual boiler at home is overkill. I have one & unless I was getting a top end machine I eg speedster slayer ect I wouldn’t bother again. The only benefit is a pid which gives you individual control over the brew boiler, but to be honest once you get over the ‘play with new toys’ factor it’ll mostly be left the same.
    IMOP look at a heat exchanger E61 like the ECM barista for $2300 which leaves $$$ for a grinder
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    Dual boiler at home is overkill. I have one & unless I was getting a top end machine I eg speedster slayer ect I wouldnít bother again. The only benefit is a pid which gives you individual control over the brew boiler, but to be honest once you get over the Ďplay with new toysí factor itíll mostly be left the same.
    IMOP look at a heat exchanger E61 like the ECM barista for $2300 which leaves $$$ for a grinder
    For home use, 3 or 4 coffees a day, I cant see how a dual boiler would be of any benefit at all to the average user.

    What I see is extra complexity and maintenance.

  9. #9
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    Thanks for that to these replies thus far- I'm already really glad I've joined 'the brotherhood of snobery'.
    matth3wh likes this.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    For home use, 3 or 4 coffees a day, I cant see how a dual boiler would be of any benefit at all to the average user.

    What I see is extra complexity and maintenance.
    It’s no more maintenance, extra power tho with 2 elements instead of 1.
    I don’t find it complex but I’m not the average user ��
    I have much more complex coffee toys at work

  11. #11
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    I have a dual boiler rotary pump machine and if i had to forego one of those features it would be the dual boiler. Nice to have but the relative low noise of the rotary pump is really something I could not live without now.

    Having lived through the pre purchase comparison nightmare of which machine to choose best advice i can give is to visit a showroom if possible. Having a bunch of machines on display and plugged in that you see in the flesh and play with really helped me.
    matth3wh likes this.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    Itís no more maintenance, extra power tho with 2 elements instead of 1.
    I donít find it complex but Iím not the average user 😉
    I have much more complex coffee toys at work
    What I'm referring to is 2 x boilers and associated plumbing and electronics to maintain and potentially fail instead of one.

    By complex I mean complexity of build and repair, not difficulty of use.
    matth3wh likes this.

  13. #13
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Always loved my Dual Boiler machine...

    Enabled me to eke the absolute best out of every roast batch I ever did. Was never just set'n'forget...
    Also, extra maintenance was never required over that of a HX machine, which I also owned.
    Sure, there is extra complexity of plumbing and wiring, but if it is done well, it won't cause any problems.
    Can't remember the last time a copper pipe let me down...

    All else being equal, I would take my DB Diadema back in a heartbeat...

    Mal.
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  14. #14
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Always loved my Dual Boiler machine...

    Enabled me to eke the absolute best out of every roast batch I ever did. Was never just set'n'forget...
    Also, extra maintenance was never required over that of a HX machine, which I also owned.
    Sure, there is extra complexity of plumbing and wiring, but if it is done well, it won't cause any problems.
    Can't remember the last time a copper pipe let me down...

    All else being equal, I would take my DB Diadema back in a heartbeat...

    Mal.
    We always seem to agree to disagree on electronics Dimal, must admit I am pretty much a set and forget type (to a degree, I'm not an experimenter) as long as extractions are meeting my quality standards I tend to leave well enough alone, having said that, I tried Nicks recipe for Greek iced espresso the other day and was pleasantly surprised, so I'm not completely closed minded.

    I've never had a copper pipe fail either, although over the years have had a couple of components in the flow path let me down.

    Must have been a sad day when you had to move the Diadema on, have you heard how the new owner is getting on with it?
    Last edited by Yelta; 18th February 2018 at 06:27 PM.

  15. #15
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Must have been a sad day when you had to move the Diadema on, have you heard how the new owner is getting on with it?
    Yes mate, it was and still is for that matter.
    Haven't heard back from the new owner, though I was assured that they would. Will wait and see I guess...

    Mal.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Yes mate, it was and still is for that matter.
    Haven't heard back from the new owner, though I was assured that they would. Will wait and see I guess...

    Mal.
    They say "No news is good news"

  17. #17
    Senior Member ArtW's Avatar
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    To me the only real reason for a Rotary pump is if you may plumb the machine in the future. Dual boiler may be handy though as stated far from necessary. When Iím leaving my machine on all day (weekends or when Iím working from home), I like to leave the steam boiler off, to keep the temp lower whilst still being able to make a coffee with about 5 minutes notice, something not possible with a HX.
    matth3wh likes this.

  18. #18
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    Thanks for advice guys-on this as well as an earlier thread. The La Pav does have a stainless frame as well. I just bought the La Pavoni Giotto Dual Boiler PID and a Eureka ATOM grinder. Bought them through (site sponsor) Casa Espresso in Brighton, VIC. Dealt with Anthony, who was very helpful.
    Thanks to all.
    Shane.
    matth3wh and Rockford like this.

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