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Thread: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

  1. #51
    A_M
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Interesting data...


  2. #52
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Ah -- excellent -- actual numbers -- thanks VR! These are actually pretty close to what I recorded when I added my TC -- if anything my temps are lower. This is a great relief -- I was beginning to wonder if I happened to own an insanely hot Silvia, or something!

    So you would indeed be looking at a 5 minute wait to get into the 110*C ballpark that PIDs seem use as their initial setpoint. Sounds like a convincing argument for a PID -- sadly our own PID project has stalled, so I expect to be temp surfing for a while yet :-[

    Mal -- thkx for the video -- was definitely worth a laugh *;) *In that particular case they were very seriously instructing Silvia users to pull their shot right on the peak of the temperature cycle. Cause hotters always better, I think was the reasoning *:-?

    Still, perhaps Ill try it -- I need to drink (or at least use) more coffee anyway *::) (says she, eyeing her embarrassingly large stash of greens)

  3. #53
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Gday Simone....

    Thought you might like that one.... ;)

    Yeah, its probably pretty basic compared to what "real" coffee snobs would be willing to do but for where they live and given that U.S. Silvias run on 110V AC with possibly a differently rated heating element, it most likely works for them.... Given the lag of the Group behind whats going on in the Boiler.

    Sounds like you got what you were after from "vr" though. Do you have a Temperature reading DMM with thermocouple Simone? You could run a series of tests with your own machine by setting up to pull a shot as per normal but before you lock the PF in, settle the t/c bead on top of the tamped coffee about halfway from the centre to the edge and then lock the PF in with the t/c bead in place. You may have to lock the PF in a little tighter than normal but when Ive done this with my Mokita and then the Bezzera, this didnt seem to be necessary.

    No need to use your good coffee for this experiment as youre really only trying to create similar back-pressure to a normal shot pulling cycle; no need to drink the outcome ;). When youre ready to go, hit the Brew Switch at different stages of the heating cycle and see how this translates to actual temperature on the puck. No need to dump the puck after each measurement, its only there to support the t/c bead and restrict the water flow.

    Youll have an exact profile of your own particular Silvia after this and it may be interesting to compare notes with others such as "vrs" for example. The differential does vary slightly with changing ambient conditions i.e. when its colder, the differential increases and visa versa... Worth doing though if you have the inclination :)

    Cheers mate,
    Mal.

  4. #54
    sdg
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Hi Mal,

    Aha -- yet another thermocouple. Amazing how those things are multiplying around here these days ::) -- and every one ends ups jammed into some piece of coffee-related equipment in such a way that it invariably turns out to be easier to go buy another one (maybe I could dismantle the iRoast... naww)

    At least one stuffed into the PF will have to be retrievable... I hope :o

    I did once try the TC in the polystyrene cup experiment, but got rather inconsistent results, so I will try the TC in the PF with coffee (an honourable use for some of my 3-month old Wahgi that I cant quite bring myself to throw out :( )

    And here are vicroamers numbers, again, with mine added...





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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    In that particular case they were very seriously instructing Silvia users to pull their shot right on the peak of the temperature cycle. Cause hotters always better, I think was the reasoning Huh
    Though I havent tried it, pulling a shot when the light goes off might work. Cold water coming in balanced with the residual heat of the element might get you into a reasonable temp range, might not to, considering the temp eddys going on in there, but it could be worth a go if youve got some spare coffee to experiment with.

  6. #56
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Boiler comes on at 91c and goes off at 107c

    45 seconds later the peak temp reached is 122c but this seems to vary a few degrees.

    1 min = 121

    1.30 = 119

    2 min = 117

    2.30 = 115

    3 min = 113

    3.30 = 112

    4 min = 110

    4.30 = 109

    I pull my shots between about 112 - 115 , depending on the beans etc

  7. #57
    sdg
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Thanks Gronk :)

    Looks like yours is measuring consistently 3*C lower than VRs, but with the same gradient -- so could just be that "cheap device == inaccurate device" error that AM was talking about.

    Except youre both pulling your shots at around the same indicated temp, which corresponds to quite different points in the cycle :-? Interesting...

  8. #58
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Except youre both pulling your shots at around the same indicated temp, which corresponds to quite different points in the cycle
    Ill try a few degrees cooler and see how that goes. :)

  9. #59
    sdg
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Hi VR,

    Be interested to know how that goes -- I had no joy at all chasing the theoretical 110*C shot-pulling temp -- to me it just seemed to make for sour shots.

    Although if the aim was to match Gronks shot-timing then youd need to pull your shot at +3*C relative to his -- ie, at 116, rather than at 113.

    This seems entirely upside down, but I pretty sure its right :-/



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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Am I misreading your table? Does that mean youre waiting 3 mins 50 seconds after the light goes out before pulling a shot at 113 degrees? Web advice Ive read for time-surfing says wait just 50 seconds!

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 747F7D767974677E70150 link=1227428190/59#59 date=1232688581
    Am I misreading your table? Does that mean youre waiting 3 mins 50 seconds after the light goes out before pulling a shot at 113 degrees? Web advice Ive read for time-surfing says wait just 50 seconds!
    At 50 seconds after the boiler switches off the water temp is around 121c and sometimes as high as 124c
    If you hit the brew switch without the portafilter fitted youll get steam out of the group head.
    A bit too bloody hot for pulling a nice shot I think! :D

    I tried a cuppla shots today at 117 and they tasted a bit burnt to my uneducated palate.

    I think the max temp for my setup (which WONT be the same for every one elses) is 115 :)

  12. #62
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 392E2D4A0 link=1227428190/56#56 date=1232631034
    Thanks Gronk :) *

    Looks like yours is measuring consistently 3*C lower than VRs, but with the same gradient -- so could just be that "cheap device == inaccurate device" error that AM was talking about.
    I have no doubt its the inconsistencies in these cheapy themometers. I bet if ya bought a box of em and tested them all youd be lucky to get 2 that read the same.

    Im sure the Watlow PID device that Jim uses in his kits is much more accurate than a Digitech digital thermometer from Jaycar ;D

  13. #63
    A_M
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Just had a quick look at the specs of the Meter recommended from j-Car

    As it appears to be displaying whole digits... Then you also need to be aware that there is +/- the last digit error that also has to be taken into account..

    ie. A reading 113 could be rounded up or down as it could have been 112.5 or even 113.5.... Then Add the +/-first crack error and then the Thermocouple...

    Temperature J type K type PRTD
    -200 - 3.0 0.55
    -100 - 2.5 0.35
    0 1.5 1.5 0.15
    200 1.5 1.5 0.55
    400 1.6 1.6 0.95
    600 2.4 2.4 1.35

    0r .75 % which is ever greater...

    So a reading of 113 could be = to 110 or 116 which is in fact a difference of 5C....

    So if your shot looks right and taste great at 110, then 110 is the indicator... Another user may be getting 116 and getting crap... Yet in fact could be really at the same temp as you....

  14. #64
    sdg
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Yeess -- which is all bad news for my aim, which was to get a idea re how much variation there is in the temperature characteristics of individual Silvias! :-[



  15. #65
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 5B4C4F280 link=1227428190/63#63 date=1232714159
    Yeess -- which is all bad news for my aim, which was to get a idea re how much variation there is in the temperature characteristics of individual Silvias! *:-[

    In general they are quite good and usually not that far out..... But due to the Manufactures tolerances and all the issues involved... You need to be aware. *Otherwise you will be off on a goose chase...

    Quick check is to check the reference point of 0C and this is a universal check and depending on the quality of the ice and your location above sea level...

    Should be almost spot on.. *Slushed ice..

    1: The international standard is ..An insulated vessel for holding a stirred mixture of 8 parts of crushed ice with 2 parts by volume of water is required.

    This should give you 0C.... *Or very close. *As in 0.1 or 0.2 out at worse... *However the Meter and probe could be 3C and it would be within specs.

    2: Then if you were to bring some water to the boil... *Lots of fine bubbles going on... *Not violent but a solid and even spread if possible.

    This should give you 100C +/- first crack *if your test equipment is liner.

    NOTE: point 2 is a ball park test as it can not be controlled as well as 0C.

    However it will give you an idea as to how well you temp probe is performing... *I trust that your testing will put a smile on your dial.

    PS... *mercury in glass is usually very good... *So you could measure the temp at the same time as your thermocouple (Ice and boiling water) and that will also act as a cross reference..

  16. #66
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Totally agree with AngerManagemnt. And add more.

    I recently PIDed my Silvia.
    It was a cheap home job. All the parts cost a total of $100.

    I set the PID to 109C. Found that the water coming out of the group head was too hot (bubbling). The shot wasnt bad but not good.
    When set to about 101 it "seemed" about right.
    The PID would also show that the steam thermostat would come in at 125C and shut off at 135C. That seemed to be wrong.

    So I went and got a dual temp DMM. It stated it was +/- first crack. When you opened the box it then stated that this was between 10 and 30(I forget the actual range but it was small). This was only for the meter, not any error that the TC induced.
    When put on the top of the boiler the DMM gave the same measurement as the PID!?!?


    (PID Boiler TC)

    May be the DMM is out?
    So I did what AngerManagerment suggests.
    In ice water one TC measured 0.2 the other 0.3.
    In boiling water one measured 99.8 the other 99.6
    So the DMM isnt out.

    Maybe my taste buds are out?
    I put the TCs from the DMM up the spout.
    At 101 the shot water was 93.
    At 100 the shot water was 92.
    MMM....
    This is only showing the temp AFTER the water leave the filter basket.
    Also how long the machine was on and how many blank shots I did made the temp different.

    So this morning I got the really useful single basket and drilled some holes for the DMM TCs.

    What a waste of a perfectly good basket ;D

    I put the group handle back in (no coffee in the basket) and ran the brew water.
    With the boiler at 100C the water enters the basket at 97C


    I then put some coffee in the basket.
    With a light tamp and not a lot coffee (under dose) the temp was 95.5C.
    With a harder tamp and a slight over dose the temp was 92C.

    So what is going on. I dont really know, some thoughts;
    You can see from my pics that there is air flow around my boiler TC. This may cause a lower reading. I also have insulated the boiler. Maybe the water temp in my boiler is more even? I doubt it but maybe?
    The water in the boiler may actually be 109C. The metal/air doesnt transfer heat as well as water. This is why when measuring 0C you put the probe in ice water not just ice (see Angermanagents international standard).

    So the moral of the story?
    Your temp measurement wont be my temp measurement. The 109C is a good starting point.
    Where, how and to some extent, when you measure makes a big difference.
    YOUR temp measurement is a reference for YOU to compare to what YOU get in YOUR cup.

    Good luck and I hope this helps.

    ;DLet your taste buds rule! ;D

  17. #67
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 2E2D3F3F3B2D354C0 link=1227428190/65#65 date=1232747926
    You can see from my pics that there is air flow around my boiler TC. This may cause a lower reading.
    My guess is that the mass of your probe, combined with the relatively small portion in contact with the boiler, might be causing you to read a "weighted average" of the air temperature and the boiler temperature. *Depends a lot on how well isolated, thermally, the sensing tip is from the body of the bolt.

    If my guess happens to be close, then this would cause your PID to drive the boiler temp a little higher than an installation with a smaller probe.

    But regardless of all that, I completely agree with your basic point that once you have a setup that gives consistent readings, it doesnt really matter that much if the absolute temps are correct.

    Jim


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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 527D7476615E727D7274767E767D67130 link=1227428190/64#64 date=1232715870
    2: Then if you were to bring some water to the boil... *Lots of fine bubbles going on... *Not violent but a solid and even spread if possible.

    This should give you 100C +/- first crack *if your test equipment is liner.

    NOTE: point 2 is a ball park test as it can not be controlled as well as 0C.

    However it will give you an idea as to how well you temp probe is performing... *I trust that your testing will put a smile on your dial.
    When testing probes at the boiling point, I have found it effective to loosely cover the pot or kettle with aluminum foil. *This will create a nice steamy environment above the liquid surface. *If you can suspend your probe in this pocket of steam, the reading will remain nice and steady (readings in the liquid jump around a lot).

    For the best results, make sure the aluminum foil is not tight enough to build up any pressure, use distilled water, and make the necessary adjustments for your altitude above sea level and for local barimetric pressure.

    Jim

  19. #69
    A_M
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Hi to all those who are taking the time to follow this..

    1: Basswav - Has done a great job as putting some of the theory to practice...

    2: JIM - Site sponsor and PID person ;D has to work with all this, thus is aware of some of the more finer detail etc.

    Jim, goes even further to identify some of the other issues that compound what many are trying to do. Be rest assured, thermal dynamics is complicated and Jim and Myself have only touched on some of the issues at hand.. In general these points are the one that have a large impact... But remember lots of little errors can also make big errors and some times 2 + 2 can = 5

    OUTCOME to take home:

    JIM - once you have a setup that gives consistent readings, it doesnt really matter that much, if the absolute temps are correct.
    However: If you trying to compare the exact reading with another person or system... Then be aware there will be differences....



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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Yeah, Id appreciate a note when you get your temp control up and running. *Can you email me at: "m dot blake at exemail dot com dot au"
    Tkx

    Email addy disassembled to protect the innocent (from spam-bots and net-spiders)

    Mal.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 2E0A08065652630 link=1227428190/69#69 date=1233146072
    Yeah, Id appreciate a note when you get your temp control up and running. *Can you email me at: "m dot blake at exemail dot com dot au"
    Tkx
    Gday Mike.

    Who are you speaking to?

  22. #72
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 6D727869747A767E691B0 link=1227428190/54#54 date=1232567002
    In that particular case they were very seriously instructing Silvia users to pull their shot right on the peak of the temperature cycle. Cause hotters always better, I think was the reasoning *Huh
    Though I havent tried it, pulling a shot when the light goes off might work. Cold water coming in balanced with the residual heat of the element might get you into a reasonable temp range, might not to, considering the temp eddys going on in there, but it could be worth a go if youve got some spare coffee to experiment with.
    Apologies for chiming in late and being way out of date (and being a serial lurker) but when I committed to Miss Silvia I thought the the recommended practice was timing from when the light came on - the theory being, as quoted above, that the element momentum balanced the cold water to get stable T during the shot (although being lazy and getting acceptable results Ive always hit brew as the light goes out)

    I hope those new CS Data Loggers *come through soon so I can quench my renewed desire for numbers.

    SCarey.

  23. #73
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    The word gronk has been added to the CoffeeSnobs hotlinks.

    Nice work Gronk62, you started something simple and fun there.

  24. #74
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 547B716C150 link=1227428190/72#72 date=1235218799
    The word gronk has been added to the CoffeeSnobs hotlinks.

    Nice work Gronk62, you started something simple and fun there.
    Wow, thanks Andy. Im pretty chuffed about that

  25. #75
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    :)
    I also added the past tense gronked and the present tense gronking

    ...this should save people explaining what they meant when they drop the word in a post.


  26. #76
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Now theres 2 completely different "gronk" mods.

    This ones been a popular mod to the standard mufflers on Harley Sportsters (and various other Harleys) since about mid 05 :D
    Gronks standard muffler mod


  27. #77
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    I read that muffler mod Gronk and noticed a link to "Home-brewed CS tapereds".
    I read the whole thing and theres nothing in it about coffee. :-?

  28. #78
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 063A273C363720353D36520 link=1227428190/76#76 date=1235288142
    I read that muffler mod Gronk and noticed a link to "Home-brewed CS tapereds".
    I read the whole thing and theres nothing in it about coffee. *:-?
    ;D I wasnt a coffee snob back then. Although being populated by mostly Americans I would imagine there are a LOT of potential coffee snobs who are members there

  29. #79
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Just a qick update..

    I know I said earlier in this thread that I generally pull my shots with the temp reading between 112 - 115 degrees, but lately Ive finally been getting a handle on my roasting technique (which has been sadly lacking for a few months :-[) and have found Ive needed to pull shots at higher temps.

    My roasts are still far from perfect, but improving all the time. The improved roasts mean better coffee, and Ive found shot temps between 118 - 120 to be about right... most times. Still varies a bit from roast to roast, but I dont get that burnt taste I used to get. Mostly Id get a sour taste if the temp is reading lower than about 117

    Anyway the point Im trying to make here (and has already been mentioned several times by others) is that it really is still trial and error to find what works with your own set up. *:)

  30. #80
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 2C392425207D794B0 link=1227428190/78#78 date=1235385416
    but lately Ive finally been getting a handle on my roasting technique (which has been sadly lacking for a few months :-[) and have found Ive needed to pull shots at higher temps.
    Great to hear mate.... [smiley=thumbsup.gif] In a lot of ways its kind of like first learning how to ride a bike; all the things you need to do seem impossible to coordinate at first but then, it all starts to gel and then theres no holding you back.... 8-)

    Mal.

  31. #81
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 567B7F737E120 link=1227428190/79#79 date=1235399221
    Quote Originally Posted by 2C392425207D794B0 link=1227428190/78#78 date=1235385416
    but lately Ive finally been getting a handle on my roasting technique (which has been sadly lacking for a few months :-[) and have found Ive needed to pull shots at higher temps.
    Great to hear mate.... [smiley=thumbsup.gif] In a lot of ways its kind of like first learning how to ride a bike; all the things you need to do seem impossible to coordinate at first but then, it all starts to gel and then theres no holding you back.... 8-)

    Mal.
    Thanks Mal. Its been a tricky learning curve. Ive had to modify this, that, and the other thing and after mostly Very ordinary roasts, which up until recently all tasted pretty much the same no matter what origin bean I used, Ive finally started to narrow down my mistakes.

    Cheers mate, and thanks for your help *[smiley=thumbsup.gif]

  32. #82
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Just bumping this to say that Ive just got my Silvia, and Ive already got a thermocouple in the post. This one seems cheapest at the moment, and its the same as the Jaycar one.

    http://store.voltelectronics.com.au/...20Thermocouple

    So Ill put it together when she comes and post back when I get some results. Im also chopping a naked PF, which should help with Tamp/Dose at the same time.

    All things will come together.... soon.

  33. #83
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Hey all - sorry to intrude like this, but just had a question maybe those who have a Silvia/thermocouple can help.

    Iv recently brought a Silvia 2nd hand like this.

    I get the best results when pulling the shots while the boiler cycle temp is on its way up, start the shot at 114 deg, after 2 seconds its 112 deg then hit the steam switch to try and keep the temp up. It still drops to 107 norm before climbing again. When I tried to pull a shot when the temp was dropping in boiler cycle it wud drop to fast even using steam switch.

    I was wondering, if the temp drops 6 degs on the thermocouple and then goes up again, isnt that really bad for the shot??

    Thanks ... hope this isnt too off topic


  34. #84
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Hmmmm, Ive finally managed to get things setup to start gathering numbers on shot temps vs surfing method, lots of caveats and further work to do, but...

    The orange lines are taking the "shot" on the way up (heating) while the blue are on the way down (cooling) - showing the "Puck Temp" (sorta) with the Element & Pump on & off state. *As you can see, for Heat the shot starts 30sec after the element comes on while for Cool its 90sec after the element goes off. *Similarish peak but different gradient.

    I drilled a hole in a surplus filter basket and first tried to dose & (careful) tamp but had an explosive blowout half way through the pour *:( * This attempt was using a "lame cheap-skates Scace-like Thingie" (tm) - the filter was packed with assorted plastic and filter papers - unfortunately I could only get the flow rate down to about twice normal. *Back to the drawing board on that account.

    Possibly a factor to consider is that my Silvia is a moderately ancient 2002 model and I think they changed the thermostat somewhere about then.

    Must say that the CS DataLogger is a wonderful device, many thanks to Andy et al., the only thing better would be an 8 channel version *:)


  35. #85
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Ive been using my Gronked Silvia for a few days now and its definatly made a difference to the shots already.

    I dare say it, but I believe I even had a god shot. Ive been making espresso for a long time, and roasting my own for the same length, and I think that was my best shot ever.

    However.... there is ALWAYS room for improvement.

    As Kiwi Jono has said - its the dips in the tempratures that interest me. You can do a mod like Sparky, or a pip - where you use a thermoblock/second boiler to bring pre-warmed water into the boiler instead of cold water. Thatll get the shots constant for sure. But for the normal people out there I think using the steam switch is pretty damn good.

    When I talked to Pip he was saying he ran the steam switch when he started the shot, and if youre only running it 25-30 seconds you will see a drop, then a rise in temps. Still - its better than just a massive drop!

    I have also got a naked PF - that helps for grind/tamp. And Im gonna start using the Weiss method (as soon as I can find a couple of styrofoam cups!)

    Its not a PID - but its $40.

  36. #86
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Please bear with me while I caution against placing too much emphasis on what the boiler temperature does during a shot. *I have some fairly sophisticated measurement equipment hooked permanently to my bench Silvia. *That equipment tells me this:

    • The boiler temperature (measured by a thermocouple at the top of the boiler) drops quickly as soon as the pump is turned on.
    • During the first ~5 seconds of a shot, both the temperature of the water inside the grouphead, and the temperature of the water inside the coffee puck rise to a peak, and then drop off.
    • After ~15 seconds, both the grouphead temperature and the puck temperature will again begin to rise, but more slowly than at the beginning of the shot.
    • The slowly rising grouphead and puck temperatures occur at the same time that the boiler temperature is continuing to drop significantly.

    Whats the point? *The boiler temperature is a terrible predictor for what the brew temperature is doing once the pump is running and the system is no longer stable and content.

    To date, the very best (i.e. flattest) shot profiles Ive seen on my bench Silvia result from:
    • Immediately before pulling a shot, open the steam wand and bleed off the very hottest water and steam from the top of the boiler (no more than 3-5 seconds). *If this bleed is done correctly, then the initial peak I described during the first few seconds of a shot does not show up on the graph.
    • Prevent the PID, or stock thermostat, or your finger on the steam switch *>:( from turning the heater on during a shot. *A flatter profile will result if the heater remains off.


    Jim

  37. #87
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Jim - Thanks for that information - I will certinly avoid the temptation to try to control the shot temprature via the steam switch. Your measurement gear will CERTINLY be MUCH better than mine! :P

    So - now Im simply going to focus on WHEN to start the shot - and also HOW to start the shot (ie. temprature rising, or temprature falling) So far I have calibrated the thermocouple and I am starting the shot with a rising temprature when it hits 115 ie. I use the steam switch to bring the temp up to 115, then switch the steam off, and the boiler on.

    Jim, would you follow that procedure (if you were me and were limited in knowledge to the boiler temp) - or would you bring the machine up to 116, and start the shot when the temprature falls back to 115?

    So far I have achieved very good shots, however I have next week off, and my parents are visiting, so Ill get to run a lot more coffee thru the machine next week. Thatll give me the chance to try some lower temprature starts - 112, 109 etc.

    Either way - its a perception of control I guess. I perceive I have more control - thus I perceive my coffee tastes better :) :P

    AndyCJ

  38. #88
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Hi, AndyCJ -

    Assuming you can manipulate the temperature to where you want it, I think pulling a shot while the temp is dropping is probably better. *This is just an educated guess, but I base it on the fact that the temperature falls very slowly compared to how fast it rises. *Hitting a particular exact temperature while its on the rise is like shooting at a quickly moving target. *After the temp peaks, and starts to fall, it would be much easier to hit your target.

    Jim

  39. #89
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Yes - good point. Ill try the downward temp surf. Thats what I was doing before the Gronk. I was temp surfing without the Gronk. ie. Getting to full heat, then running a short blank to get rid of the steam - then running the shot.

    Might try purging via the steam wand as it should take some of the temprature off, while not flooding the boiler with cold water.

    Another thing I was going to ask on the forum was - what if you put hot water in the water tank? Doesnt that mean you would have a better temprature stability during the shot as the pump pushes hot water into the boiler instead of cold? Kinda the cheap-o no-mod version of adding a pre-boiler. What do you think Jim?

    AndyCJ

  40. #90
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Hey Jim,
    Just wondering if you had any data on purging the group down to temp (flushing from the top of the boiler cycle eg. http://tv.boingboing.net/kyle-glanville/ (Intelly tour part 2 - second vid on the page)) vs. waiting a preset time. I for one would be interested in seeing such data on as to if there is a difference and which you think is more repeatable without any extra equipment attached.

    Jered

  41. #91
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 6D4248556F662C0 link=1227428190/88#88 date=1242790903
    Another thing I was going to ask on the forum was - what if you put hot water in the water tank? *Doesnt that mean you would have a better temprature stability during the shot as the pump pushes hot water into the boiler instead of cold? *Kinda the cheap-o no-mod version of adding a pre-boiler. *What do you think Jim?

    AndyCJ
    The water in the tank gets warmish anyway as its sitting right next to a stinking hot chunk O brass boiler. And to start the day its at room temp anyway. Dunno if it would affect the stability by much though

  42. #92
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    I wouldnt do it.... :o

    The pump and other bits and pieces arent rated for use with Hot Water, better to leave as is and realise longer life from your machine 8-)

    Mal.

  43. #93
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 55796A6C71797447557776737D61180 link=1227428190/89#89 date=1242790940
    Hey Jim,
    Just wondering if you had any data on purging the group down to temp (flushing from the top of the boiler cycle eg. http://tv.boingboing.net/kyle-glanville/ (Intelly tour part 2 - second vid on the page)) vs. waiting a preset time. I for one would be interested in seeing such data on as to if there is a difference and which you think is more repeatable without any extra equipment attached.

    Jered
    Jered -

    Sorry, but I missed this post. *I do not have any data on purging the group that would help, though.

    The closest thing I have is some data that shows a great benefit in intrashot stability by purging a bit of steam/water through the steam wand immediately before pressing the brew button.

    Jim


    Jim

  44. #94
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    I absolutely love this thread.... So much so Ive bought my Jaycar t/c and am waiting (patiently >:() for delivery of my new toys.

    Anyway...Im wondering if people are still "gronking" and how are they finding it? Still holding up? Different temps for different beans? Any improvements?

    Gronk...are you still doing "your" thing or have done the PID?

  45. #95
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 3C393E38243730560 link=1227428190/93#93 date=1244963899
    Gronk...are you still doing "your" thing or have done the PID?
    Yep still using the cheap and cheerful mod. Its working like a charm for me, but Id still like to go full PID one day.
    Trouble is I keep spending my pocket money on shiny new things like my hideously expensive mountain bike, apple macbook, and hopefully soon a new iPhone.

    As far as different temps for different beans go its usually only a degree or 2 either way. Most of my shots are pulled with a reading around 120C *give or take.

    It also makes monitoring my steaming temp a breeze *:)

  46. #96
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Good to hear gronk ;)
    Did you end up moving the t/c to the furtherest screw from the inlet or have you left it where it is?

  47. #97
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 535651574B585F390 link=1227428190/95#95 date=1244966025
    Did you end up moving the t/c to the furtherest screw from the inlet or have you left it where it is?
    Yep I moved to the furtherest screw on advice from Jim (PID kits)
    I does give more stable readings now although it was still perfectly usable the way it was. :)

  48. #98
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    I am a novice to the whole PID thing, and have looked at the PIDs available from the USA, I have also noticed a lot of cheaper PID units on Ebay from asia.
    Can anyone tell me if these can be installed to do the same job or if im missing something?

  49. #99
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 6F4C46485F2D0 link=1227428190/97#97 date=1245717974
    I am a novice to the whole PID thing, and have looked at the PIDs available from the USA, I have also noticed a lot of cheaper PID units on Ebay from asia.
    Can anyone tell me if these can be installed to do the same job or if im missing something?
    If youre a novice then the best way to go is one of Jims PID kits as it has everything you need to basically "plug and play".
    And Jim is a respected supporting sponsor of Coffee Snobs.

    Who knows what kinda components the cheap and nasty kits from ebay contain. And I doubt thered be any back up service when the inevitable break down or problem arises.

    You get what you pay for :)

  50. #100
    Senior Member redzone121's Avatar
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 05100D0C095450620 link=1227428190/98#98 date=1245741646
    If youre a novice then the best way to go is one of Jims PID kits as it has everything you need to basically "plug and play".
    And Jim is a respected supporting sponsor of Coffee Snobs.
    Good advice thats exactly what I did and it was all good ;)

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