Finally took the plunge and ordered a PID Kit from Jim @ PID Kits. Top guy to deal with. Cant wait for the kit to arrive. Until then.... back to temperature surfing....
Finally took the plunge and ordered a PID Kit from Jim @ PID Kits. Top guy to deal with. Cant wait for the kit to arrive. Until then.... back to temperature surfing....
You will not regret it, it is a whole new ballgame with the PID installed! look forward to more spare time to socialise!
After a bit of a CS hiatus, Im back and I see this thread! That was yesterday...
So, ordered my DMM/TC from Jaycar, express post arrived today, installed it during my lunch break and machine is, as I type, warming up for my first Gronk shot!
I used the pictures posted early in the thread to place my TC - is that still an ok placve for it? I split the casing down the middle to expose more of the TC head in order to be able to thread the screw on top of the boiler through the TC head. Im totally not into electronics, but it seemed like a good idea.
If Ive made any grave errors, please do inform!
Off to make some espresso... :D
Just to post my numbers just because it is significantly lower than Ive read.
Light on when temp = 87
Light off when temp = 102
Temp rises to peak of 116
Does this sound about right?
Time to pull some shots and see how they taste...
Add: 10 minutes later...
Pulled the shot at 110
Temps take a dive down to 86 by the end of the shot (about 15 secs - a bit short, a bit underdosed). Im no great cupper... tastes ok, maybe slightly sour, could be thicker (dosing issue more likely I know).
Is temp meant to drop this much???
your temps sound fine, it will depend on how much water is pumped into the boiler as to the temp drop, on a good shot, mine will only drop about 8 degrees from 105 to 97, if it was a fast shot, im thinking more water was introduced in to boiler hence rapid temp drop......maybe?
Thanks for the reply!Originally Posted by 7175534A4A4F504748260 link=1227428190/105#105 date=1249449040
Ok, checking to see I understand you right...
because I underdosed, more water flowed from the boiler through the group head and in the process more water was drawn into the boiler leading to greater drop in temperature?
So if I had proper dosing (and tamping, grind size etc.) then I should see less of a drop in temp?
yeah thats my guess, its only logical when i think about it, the added back pressure from the tighter packed puck would limit the in-water into the top of the boiler, staying hotter longer, i could be wrong though, someone will confirm shortly when the masses arrive home from work and hit the forums.....
ps if you run just straight water through your brew head with no coffee at all, what does the temp get down to?
Yes its an ok place. although I moved mine to the screw farthest from the water inlet.Originally Posted by 3C3B303F303A383F372A365E0 link=1227428190/103#103 date=1249443412
I dont think it was a good idea to split the casing off the TC and mount it the way you mentioned. I would guess thats why your temp readings are a bit strange.
I GENTLY crimped a ring terminal (see pic) to the end of mine and made sure the tiny little ball at the very end of the TC comes into contact with the side of the mounting screw.
Also I pull the shot at about 2 degrees below the hottest reading which in my case is usually 122C max, pull shot at 120C :)
Ok, I will move mine there while I fix the other problem. Any reason why you moved it to this position?Originally Posted by 7B6E7372772A2E1C0 link=1227428190/108#108 date=1249474584
Sorry, I have zero experience with electronics, so please let me ask some clarifying questions!Originally Posted by 7B6E7372772A2E1C0 link=1227428190/108#108 date=1249474584
By crimping, do you mean you put the TC through that little tunnel I can see in the ring terminal? By the mounting screw, do you mean the hole where the screw on top of the boiler will go through? Does the little ball on the TC simply rest on the side of the hole, touching the metal bit (e.g. in your photo, on the bit which has mx, presumably on the other side in order for the ring terminal to sit better).
Have I damaged the TC head by splitting the casing further down and need to get a new one? Is it bad that the ball part of it is being compressed by the screw as I now currently have it?
Sorry for so many questions!!
I moved it on Jims (PID kits) advice. He says the temp is more stable further away from the cold water inlet.Originally Posted by 7C7B707F707A787F776A761E0 link=1227428190/109#109 date=1249512644
I found it works ok in both positions though. Either way is ok.
Yes. And GENTLY squeezing the fitting with a crimping tool so it stays on the end of the TC wireOriginally Posted by 7C7B707F707A787F776A761E0 link=1227428190/109#109 date=1249512644
YesOriginally Posted by 7C7B707F707A787F776A761E0 link=1227428190/109#109 date=1249512644
The little ball as far as I know it the actual point at which the thermocouple is reading the temp from.Originally Posted by 7C7B707F707A787F776A761E0 link=1227428190/109#109 date=1249512644
In mine I simply made sure it was snug against the side of the mounting screw. NOT clamped under it.
PossiblyOriginally Posted by 7C7B707F707A787F776A761E0 link=1227428190/109#109 date=1249512644
Mine drops about 10 - 12 degrees in temp during a shot but that doesnt mean the water arriving at the puck drops as much.Originally Posted by 7E79727D72787A7D7568741C0 link=1227428190/104#104 date=1249444331
It travels s l o w l y through a LOT of preheated brass in a Silvia which helps to maintain some kind of temp stability.
The readings you are seeing are measured at the top of the boiler near where the cold water is coming in. The reading is bound to fluctuate greatly there and is not an indication of the actual water temp the puck is seeing
This should actually work pretty well. *It is important that there be good electrical connection between the two t/c wires. *The temperature will be measured at the point where the the t/c wires have their "last" point of connection as you move away from the bead and towards the thermometer. *This point of connection could be the bead, or the screw head, or the boiler ... *Just wherever the leads last touch together, electrically.Originally Posted by 01060D020D0705020A170B630 link=1227428190/109#109 date=1249512644
Thanks Gronk for all your help (and for thinking up this mod!)Originally Posted by 74617C7D782521130 link=1227428190/111#111 date=1249539071
Thanks for your input Jim. Good to have a better idea of how the TC works.Originally Posted by 676A6A6C61613D3C0D0 link=1227428190/112#112 date=1249561135
Would you have any idea why my readings are around 10degrees lower than everyone elses?
Ill try moving the TC head to anothe rpart of the boiler with less fluctuation to see if it makes any difference.
No, I dont. *Im a little surprised it is not giving you a better readout.Originally Posted by 686F646B646E6C6B637E620A0 link=1227428190/114#114 date=1249595054
- Run the insulated part of the t/c wire along the hot boiler. *This will help prevent "wicking" heat away from the sensing tip.
- Flatten the bead using the smooth portion of needle nose pliers. *You want to have as much surface in contact with the boiler has possible. *Otherwise, youll measure sort of a weighted average of the metal temperature and the surrounding air temperature.
- Maybe plunk the t/c into boiling water? *Ought to be within a degree or two of 100C.
- The brew thermostat on your machine may be off a little?? *This seems very unlikely to me, but has to be considered if you eliminate other explanations.
Id read [but never seen any confirmation] that there was a brief production run of Silvias where the 110C thermostat was replaced with a 100C.....Originally Posted by 7C7171777A7A2627160 link=1227428190/115#115 date=1249603927
B&Fs temperatures seem to reflect the *"BEHAVIOUR" Id expect from a 100C thermostat.
His temps are pretty much same as mine was, so i possibly could be in teh same boat with a 100C Tstat. mine was manf in 2004...
Have done as you have advised after a weekend away.Originally Posted by 5558585E53530F0E3F0 link=1227428190/115#115 date=1249603927
TC head now at the furtherest point from the water inlet into the boiler, insulated part of TC running along the top of the boiler.
Tested the TC head in boiling water - it is reading 96-97 degrees. So my TC is 3-4degrees lower than actual temp.
My new readings:
Boiler on - 88degrees.
Boiler off - 105 degrees
Temp rise after boiler off - 117degrees
When brewing, temp drops to 96-97 and stabilises until shot is over at ~25secs (I guess this is the benefit of the TC probe taking temperature further from the water inlet into the boiler).
So with my TC error it would be closer to what the others are getting...
So perhaps it is just equipment error, and I do actually have the 110 thermostat? Who knows?!Originally Posted by 4D5A4A5D4C4B5A4D3F0 link=1227428190/116#116 date=1249607639
Whatever the case, the last 2 shots from Ms Silvia vas good to v good! Still in search for that God shot, but hey, arent we all?
Ok, thats enough fiddling from me and time to get to more drinking.
Once again, thanks to all for the input and suggestions! :)
Mine was manufactured 2007... when did the chance the thermostat on the Silvia?Originally Posted by 1E1A3C2525203F2827490 link=1227428190/117#117 date=1249616304
US models have had the 100C thermostat since at least 2005.Originally Posted by 36313A353A3032353D203C540 link=1227428190/119#119 date=1249881859
Glad you understood me even with the typo! Thanks for the info.Originally Posted by 2429292F22227E7F4E0 link=1227428190/120#120 date=1249905763
Just wondering... if I have a 100C thermostat, the boiler element -should- cut off when the temperature is 100C... what temperature should/might the TC probe be reading (assuming that there should be any difference)?
Not necessarily.... ::)Originally Posted by 4F48434C43494B4C4459452D0 link=1227428190/121#121 date=1249907716
Jim will have exact data on this no doubt but the quoted spec could infer a median temperature, a minimum or a maximum so you cant really assume what the stated spec means unless you have access to the manufacturers data or have completed some experiments and collected your own data.
There will also be a measurable difference between the characteristics of a US model and an Oz one because of the different mains supply voltage and the ratings of installed heating elements.... The US one (heating element) will have more Mass/KW Output and therefore have a different thermo-inertia effect, so the use of even an identical t/stat may not produce identical results in an Oz machine.
Only way to know for sure with your particular setup is to run some simple "Scace-like" experiments with a t/couple bead sitting on top of a coffee puck, thats prepared in the normal way, then pull some shots and record the indicated temperatures against actual. Once you have this, youll know exactly where to pull your shots via the indicated temperature.
Thanks Mal! Ahh... the joys of science (thermodynamics?) and technology...Originally Posted by 1E33373B365A0 link=1227428190/122#122 date=1249912425
Im happy to be ignorant in this matter. As they say, ultimately, its what is in the cup that counts!
Its been fun though... and Im sure Ill go through all of this again if I PID my machine or buy what youve got!
Diadema Junior Extra... now thats a machine I would love to get my hands on!
This is going to disappoint Mal *;D ..... *but I have not measured enough of these to really know. *And there is some variation because these are not precision devices.Originally Posted by 22252E212E242621293428400 link=1227428190/121#121 date=1249907716
But as best I can tell they seem to be set up with a +/- 9C hysteresis (or deadband). *On the way up, it switches off at 100C + 9C = 109C. *On the way down, it switches back on again at 100C - 9C = 91C.
If thats the case, I think I can assume that I have a 100C thermostat: given my 3C degree error in my TC probe, switch on is 88+3 (91C) and swith off is 105+3 (108C). Correct?Originally Posted by 7F72727479792524150 link=1227428190/124#124 date=1249953181
Sounds right to me.Originally Posted by 7A7D7679767C7E79716C70180 link=1227428190/125#125 date=1249956121
Never Jim ;D ;D ....Originally Posted by 3A3737313C3C6061500 link=1227428190/124#124 date=1249953181
Ive got a PIDed Botticelli (bigger but similar to Silvia) with one of Jims kits- its brilliant.Originally Posted by 6A564B505A5B4C59515A3E0 link=1227428190/40#40 date=1232321689
Before I had it I used a very similar system to what Thundergod suggested. From memory I waited until the heater light had gone out and used a flush of about 6 seconds- youd have to experiment. It worked pretty well and was reasonably repeatable. I think one of the gurus on this site said there were issues about currents in the boiler with the different temperatures, but I guess thats always an issue with the single boiler design when youre pulling a shot anyway. I used a thermocouple in the filterbasket to help me work out how long to flush- of course the temp is going to continue to drop during the extraction. It might be better to use some form of temp surfing- either waiting or the gronk method (great to hear that term again- reminds me of the 70s in Tamworth).
My attempt at a gronking...
I was going to thread the thermocouple through the hole in the bottom, but it got in the way of the tray so I drilled a hole in the corner. Silvia is tough, it stripped one of my drill bits!!!
I used the QM-1323 from Jaycar which came with a K-type bead thermocouple for $40. reads in 0.1 degree increments, which is a good thing.
I notice you have the same set up as me. Silvia and Mazzer mini *:)
Wow. That looks great. I just bought the same thermocouple to use with my KK turbo oven roaster (in build phase).
Now I will have two uses for it untill I plan a PID job.
Thanks for sharing.
I had also originally bought it to use with my KKTO that Im about to build, but I wasnt sure how well the bead thermocouple would work and figured Id need to buy a different probe anyway. Then I noticed the day after I bought this that Andys got some more of the data logging ones, and figured Id include one with my first order of greens next beanbay. Having said that, it would be easy enough to just buy a separate probe thermocouple for the KKTO and use the same multimeter for both...
Hi doug81.Originally Posted by 353E24366960510 link=1227428190/132#132 date=1252047104
This is the approach that I took. I bought the DMM and a spare TC bead from Andy and gronked my Silvia. When Im not using the DMM to brew, its plugged into my roaster.
Its really great to improve the feedback that I am getting from my machine - thanks to everyone here for the advice and input!
Anyone tried setting this up with something like this: eBay link removed per the Site sales and posting policy (the rules)
Is 110C high enough really? Think it would work ok with a metal connector crimped onto the sensor?
Last edited by Javaphile; 22nd March 2013 at 06:46 PM. Reason: eBay link removed
oh, seems my link was removed. Didn't realise it was a no-no as I took the link from another thread in this forum. Anyway, it was a link to a digital thermometer which is good up to 110C
Simonwar, I am more and more leaning towards what you've done, but think I might wait till my warranty is done. How long did it take you to fit up and are you happy with the results?
Forty dollars buys you a full-featured PID with thermocouple and SSR.
For the same price you'd be silly to gronk.
Either is easy enough to reverse if you every need to send it in for warranty repairs.
I dont see any point in the "Gronk" option these days, when you can buy a digital display thermometer and thermocouple for less than $10.
Isn't that what gronking is? Installing a digital boiler temp display to help you surf consistently?
You'll need to be able to make up leads (ie crimp fittings onto some wire) and figure out where to put them (you can work that out from Auber's instructions).
I have my cables (thermocouple and 4-cores running to the back of the PID) terminated into techflex nylon sheath and have simply attached the PID to the side of my machine with velcro in the most visible position. Looks good enough for me but that's not saying much.
I suspect that in a Silvia you'd have room to mount the controller internally, directly under the central switch. That would look awesome, but require a 45x45mm square cut-out which I suspect you might not want to do. the controller requires 82mm of free space behind where you mount it.
You could probably buy/fab a suitable housing for it but the one I used would be too big to mount next to the grouphead - it'd have to mount on the side.
If it helps, I put my PID controller under the logo and above the steam knob on my Silvia (so an internal mount). The two SSRs (steam and brew) are installed behind the gap behind the drip tray and in front of the pump/water tank.
The caveats for internal mount are obviously a) permanent modification to the appearance of the Silvia and b) requires significant insulation so the heat from the boiler does not adversely affect the PID.
I think I'd be happier paying for the Auber then. Thanks for the info though.
This was an auber kit. Very easy to fit. Pretty much plug and play. I installed as per instructions in the kit (just went for the steam and brew emp tcontrol options) and was very happy with the result. Much better stability and improved steaming performnce.
I still found it best to give a coooling flush before use.
Took about an hour and a half to fit.
Agreed, for those more recent entries to the world of microcontrollers the arduino is hard to beat. I have mine working beside this PC with Nano, SSR, DS18B20 and 5 wires not including the usb cable. It will control down to single waveforms at 50Hz (zero crossing SSR). All on ebay.
Here is a good start
Improving the Beginner’s PID – Introduction « Project Blog and the timer library, interrupt driven PID, ten lines of code to manage it.
Put that PID into your AVR! Sadly I do not have the time to learn the low level stuff any more.
So i was just starting with my PID conversion when I hit the first stone wall... I don't have screws on my thermostats?? It almost looks like they're riveted in. I have given them a go with a set of pliers with no luck. Any ideas on how to get these loose? Do they have threads? Should I keep trying? Or should I just grind them off? Or is there any other ideas on connecting the thermocouple to the boiler? I will post a pic later...
There are many ways ro attach the tc to the boiler..not least of which is heatproof tape or a plug of epoxy putty.
Just put a dab of thermal paste on the Tc to ensure good heat transfer first.
PS..you may want to try different positions for the TC before you finally fix it.