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Thread: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

  1. #151
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    Those retainers look suspiciously like hex head screws ?
    Have you tried a minature socket on them something like a 4-5, or 6 mm by the look of it.

  2. #152
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomsonza View Post
    Hey blend52. Maybe remove was the wrong word. I want to loosen the screw to attach the thermocouple. i was thinking about using heatproof tape but wasn't sure it was the best long term solution. Epoxy putty was also on the list but as the screw appeared to be the best solution I was hoping to do it that way. I have attached a picture.

    I could be wrong but looks to me like the thermostats are held in position by the two stainless saddles, which are in turn held by the black bolts, as blend52 said correct size socket or ring spanner should do the job, that's if you haven't managed to round em of with your pliers.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    I could be wrong but looks to me like the thermostats are held in position by the two stainless saddles, which are in turn held by the black bolts, as blend52 said correct size socket or ring spanner should do the job, that's if you haven't managed to round em of with your pliers.
    Nope, they are completely round... but looking at the picture the back one does appear to look like a bolt. I assure you they are completely round even before I attacked them with my pliers any other ideas? I was think about using a vice-grip to try get a better grip but as I have recently moved to Oz I did not bring these with. I also have my doubts about them having a thread which is why I was wondering if anyone has seen these before?

  4. #154
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomsonza View Post
    Nope, they are completely round... but looking at the picture the back one does appear to look like a bolt. I assure you they are completely round even before I attacked them with my pliers any other ideas? I was think about using a vice-grip to try get a better grip but as I have recently moved to Oz I did not bring these with. I also have my doubts about them having a thread which is why I was wondering if anyone has seen these before?
    Thought I may have been onto something, wonder if the Aust agents for the machine may be able to help, I certainly wouldn't grind them off.

  5. #155
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    I wouldn't grind them off. At best, use a dremel to cut a slot so you can use a flat blade screwdriver, or else drill a _small_ hole and use an EasyOut.

  6. #156
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Don't butcher them in any way, it will end in tears, as I said contact the Aust agent, or you could PM Designingbycoffee View Profile: DesigningByCoffee - CoffeeSnobs he's a coffee machine technician and pretty cluey, may be able to help.

  7. #157
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    Thanks guys, I will hold back on the butchering and will see what I can find out. In the meantime I will probably just epoxy the thermocouple on.

  8. #158
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomsonza View Post
    Thanks guys, I will hold back on the butchering and will see what I can find out. In the meantime I will probably just epoxy the thermocouple on.
    Sounds like a good plan.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomsonza View Post
    Thanks guys, I will hold back on the butchering and will see what I can find out. In the meantime I will probably just epoxy the thermocouple on.
    +1, .............yes , as previously commented, there is no reason to remove them anyway.
    If it were me, i would find a small metal tube that the TC fits snug into, and epoxy ( or solder ) that to the boiler.
    Then slip the TC into the tube using a dab of thermal paste.
    That way, you have a removable/replaceable T'couple
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  10. #160
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    +1, .............yes , as previously commented, there is no reason to remove them anyway.
    If it were me, i would find a small metal tube that the TC fits snug into, and epoxy ( or solder ) that to the boiler.
    Then slip the TC into the tube using a dab of thermal paste.
    That way, you have a removable/replaceable T'couple
    Even better.

  11. #161
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    Well this has been interesting reading, even though so far I have only read the first page.

    Wondering if it would be of any use to "gronk" my EM6910.

    Having got used to using a VST 7 gm basket ( I am the only one who wants morning coffee) I am wondering what my next step is in "perfecting" my shots.
    I have no idea what temperature my shots are pulled at.
    And I guess the only way I could manipulate it would be to push some hot water though the hot water wand/tube, not the steam wand as they are seperate systems with different thermoblocks.

  12. #162
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    Hi all, have just joined up as I have been researching PID modding a Silvia for the past few days. Coincidentally I am formally an A grade electrician who has just moved into the boiler modulating controls field (our boiler is 18 story's high, 16Mpa/160BAR and a little more complicated than the Miss Silvia of course) so its pretty logical that I have a crack at this.

    Just a heads up for anyone. dx.com have PID controllers in a din 32/1 (4.7 cm x 2.8 cm cut-out) package for $23Usd delivered that I just ordered. I am hoping it will fit in some 50*30*1.6 mm ally rectangular hollow section I have left over from another project. Should arrive in about a week and I will post pics and results.

    My wiring will be teflon coated PTFE wiring and i will be placing the SSR behind the panel on the lower front section of the machine. I will also use a type K thermocouple made out of comp lead and housed in a 4mm crimp lug attaches to the boiler under one of the existing thermo switch saddles.

    To begin with I will only be controlling the brew heating function and will leave the steam functions control on the original temp switch.

    cheers.
    Last edited by koshari; 8th September 2014 at 05:01 PM. Reason: additional info
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  13. #163
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    Ok. So the dx.com. controller arrived at the beginning of last week and had some time to install it on thursday morning.

    All went well with some ally RHS stuck under the bulkhead with 3m double sided tape. Must say it controls a treat.

    Used the m4 screw under the lower front cover to mount the ssr and also connect a jumper to earth the new piece of ally.

  14. #164
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    Ok so finally PIDed my final machine. A silvia v1 I picked up for the holiday digs. Pid addition went like a breeze after 2 earlier conversions on our other machines. However had to clean out the solinoid today as it wad a little sluggish. Found it had a fair bit of coffee oil clogging it up. All good again now.

  15. #165
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    Well done, I am going the microcontroller route, have coded up the PID and like you will only do the water circuit with a crimped K type.

    A note to those looking at the arduino the PID library, it has a small error, a > when it should have been < or vice versa, its very nice and flexible. I plan on networking it, adding a clock to wake it up and put it to sleep. Start small and will fit it in the coming week, life has slowed my ambitions.
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  16. #166
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    Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Good work chippy, rob from WA was gonna go the arduino route with his Lucy but he ended up going the auber clone route. Being a software dude Iam sure he would be happy to collaborate with you on this one.

    Btw. I can see where your development time has been limited having way to many projects on the go myself.

  17. #167
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    Has anyone who is using a thermocouple (i.e K-type, not RTD) and has their PID installed inside their silvia experienced any issues with measurement stability?

    I installed my PID the other day and while it works really well most of the time, I occasionally get these jumpy errors, particularly if I leave the machine on for a while:



    I'm pretty sure that this is because thermocouple junctions actually require a second 'reference' junction (that is at a stable and known temperature) in order to take a measurement, and this second reference junction is inside the PID itself, so is subjected to heating/cooling. I am going to try a PT100 type sensor, which I hope will eliminate this error.

    Anyone experienced this?

  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyh View Post
    Has anyone who is using a thermocouple (i.e K-type, not RTD) and has their PID installed inside their silvia experienced any issues with measurement stability?

    I installed my PID the other day and while it works really well most of the time, I occasionally get these jumpy errors, particularly if I leave the machine on for a while:



    I'm pretty sure that this is because thermocouple junctions actually require a second 'reference' junction (that is at a stable and known temperature) in order to take a measurement, and this second reference junction is inside the PID itself, so is subjected to heating/cooling. I am going to try a PT100 type sensor, which I hope will eliminate this error.

    Anyone experienced this?
    The second junction or cold Junction as its often referred to is indeed at the controller. However the controller will have temperature compensation. In otherwords the controller will have its own independent measurement device measuring actual temp at controller to compare the voltage differentual between the cold and hot junctions thetefore determining the actual hot junction temp.

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by koshari View Post
    The second junction or cold Junction as its often referred to is indeed at the controller. However the controller will have temperature compensation. In otherwords the controller will have its own independent measurement device measuring actual temp at controller to compare the voltage differentual between the cold and hot junctions thetefore determining the actual hot junction temp.
    Any other ideas for what could be causing the value to jump around so much?

    The problem appears to disappear when I take the top lid/panel off. It definitely doesn't appear to be loose connections or broken wires as I can wiggle and shake the wires and not reproduce the fault. It seems temperature is the main cause.

    Even though the PID has internal temperature compensation, I still wonder if it isn't some thermal gradient or something messing it up. Do you think a RTD probe would solve my issue?

    Cheers

    (PS. I recognise your username, were you around on the old SSSF?)

  20. #170
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    Any other ideas for what could be causing the value to jump around so much?
    i reckon you have a bad connection on your thermocouple.

    what kind of thermocouple did you use? is it in a jacket? have you got another you can try?

    by the way i didnt see your vid the last time i posted as i was using tapatalk, after looking at the vid me still thinks bad connection, and no i havnt seen any of the 3 controllers i haves temp display shag round like that.

    Do you think a RTD probe would solve my issue?
    it would if the thermocouple was sus, as would another thermocouple, do you have a multimeter with thermocouple input?

    looking at your vid it does appear to shag around only when the ssr is firing (output on), which means it possibly could be an induction issue if some noise from the ssr is being capacitively coupled into the rtd, also you could have an issue with ground loop between the TC and the reference earth on the controller?

    and yes i miss the old sssf , wonder what proto (Grant) is upto these days?

  21. #171
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    Do you mean bad connection on the junction end (thermal) or on the PID end (electrical)?

    I'm sure it's not a dodgy electrical connection. If I shake the wires around I can't reproduce the fault at all (or make it go away when the fault is present) - absolutely no effect. However taking the top off the machine, which would allow the PID to cool, does seem to help.

    The way I have secured the thermocouple is by clamping the cable just before the junction (not too tightly) under the old thermostat, with the actual junction just resting on the boiler. Then I put a good dob of CPU grease on the thing to ensure good thermal conductivity. The bead of the junction is right in the middle of the dob of grease:



    (PS I did insulate the exposed terminal of the thermostat before reassembly)

    Quote Originally Posted by koshari View Post
    i reckon you have a bad connection on your thermocouple.

    what kind of thermocouple did you use? is it in a jacket? have you got another you can try?

    by the way i didnt see your vid the last time i posted as i was using tapatalk, after looking at the vid me still thinks bad connection, and no i havnt seen any of the 3 controllers i haves temp display shag round like that.

    it would if the thermocouple was sus, as would another thermocouple, do you have a multimeter with thermocouple input?

    looking at your vid it does appear to shag around only when the ssr is firing (output on), which means it possibly could be an induction issue if some noise from the ssr is being capacitively coupled into the rtd, also you could have an issue with ground loop between the TC and the reference earth on the controller?

    and yes i miss the old sssf , wonder what proto (Grant) is upto these days?

  22. #172
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    Bad connection at either end will give you grief, unfortunately looking at yours it seems to be in some braid. My thermocouples are is simply some type k comp lead twisted and then inside a slotted crimp lug which is connected directly under the centre screw between the two thermocouple clamps.

    If you can hook op a multimeter on Millivolts observe the Millivolts reading whilst it is happening, if the Millivolts shags round with the temp reading you likely have a thermocouple issue, if the Millivolts are relatively stable (as they are when the temp reads stable) it would point to the controller as you suspect.
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  23. #173
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    Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Btw with a diff temp of 70 (90 at boiler and 20 at controller)
    deg c you should get about 2.85 mv

  24. #174
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    Nothing wrong with the shielded/screened t/c cable though, more rugged plus extra resistance to EMR/RF interference; a bit more preparation work required, although only slightly...

    Mal.

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Nothing wrong with the shielded/screened t/c cable though, more rugged plus extra resistance to EMR/RF interference; a bit more preparation work required, although only slightly...

    Mal.
    i agree mal,

    my point was its more difficult to ascertain the condition of the hot junction thats all.
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  26. #176
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    EDIT: Have just ordered a Pt100 RTD probe from ebay.

    Only 8 bucks (about same price as a K-type thermocouple) but should eliminate any issues of thermal gradients, EM/RF noise, and will give me an extra decimal point of "precision" and measure down to tenths of degrees.

    Will report back after I try it.


    Quote Originally Posted by koshari View Post
    i agree mal,

    my point was its more difficult to ascertain the condition of the hot junction thats all.
    The junction is a bead type and the bead is sitting on top of the boiler. It's not insulated (as in it could be in electrical contact with the boiler), do you think that could be an issue?
    The PID input is earthed, actually onto the boiler where the mains earth comes in too.

    Quote Originally Posted by koshari
    ilooking at your vid it does appear to shag around only when the ssr is firing (output on), which means it possibly could be an induction issue if some noise from the ssr is being capacitively coupled into the rtd, also you could have an issue with ground loop between the TC and the reference earth on the controller?
    Interesting observation. I see that the PID is firing the SSD but the SSD is not actually outputting - the lamp next to the power switch it's illuminating. Wonder what that means.
    Last edited by jeremyh; 13th January 2015 at 11:56 PM.

  27. #177
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    The lamp next to the power switch on the silvia SHOULD be wired in parallel with the element meaning that the boiler should be heating.

    Did you measure the millivolts on the t/c?

  28. #178
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    i just installed the same thermocouple from jaycar but i am getting lower temps. boiler light switches on at 87C and off at 102C it is consistently like that. i have been pulling my shots at 113 and they taste great. just seems strange that the temps are lower to everyone elses tho. my silvia is 2012 built.

  29. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by yldlj View Post
    i just installed the same thermocouple from jaycar but i am getting lower temps. boiler light switches on at 87C and off at 102C it is consistently like that. i have been pulling my shots at 113 and they taste great. just seems strange that the temps are lower to everyone elses tho. my silvia is 2012 built.
    The temperature you're seeing isn't a true reflection of brew temp, it should be used only as a guideline (which it looks like you are) as everybody's setup will differ.

    i.e. 113C on your system will always be whatever 113C on your system is, but on another system 113C will correspond to a different temperature.

  30. #180
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    Do people pull there shots when the temp is rising or falling? It seems like the temp drops less when pulling it on the rise

  31. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by yldlj View Post
    Do people pull there shots when the temp is rising or falling? It seems like the temp drops less when pulling it on the rise
    On a pid set up correctly is shouldnt matter. Standard on the rise will be hotter.

  32. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyh View Post
    Has anyone who is using a thermocouple (i.e K-type, not RTD) and has their PID installed inside their silvia experienced any issues with measurement stability?

    I installed my PID the other day and while it works really well most of the time, I occasionally get these jumpy errors, particularly if I leave the machine on for a while:

    I'm pretty sure that this is because thermocouple junctions actually require a second 'reference' junction (that is at a stable and known temperature) in order to take a measurement, and this second reference junction is inside the PID itself, so is subjected to heating/cooling. I am going to try a PT100 type sensor, which I hope will eliminate this error.

    Anyone experienced this?
    Not experienced but I will bet this is heat soak into the PID making it unstable. Cold junction compensation is generally done in the thermocouple interface / amplifier. The clues are here, after being on for a while and lifting the lid. Its not the K type its the PID, try wrapping it in some air cell insulation aluminium foil may do as shiny materials resist heat ingress, shiny side outwards is far better!

    Just waiting for SWMBO to go on extended leave and I will fit mine.

  33. #183
    Senior Member nikko.the.scorpio's Avatar
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    Great thread and full credit to Gronk and those other contributors to it.

    Added a basic K-type ball ended wire thermocouple under the far left hand side screw (which seems the popular place to go on Silvia's) - lil dab of thermal grease before placing it under and screwing it down. Simply ran the lead back down and out the base via the existing corner hole to the rear left of the pump (as you look down). 5 min job, quick test and working fine.

    Will log a bunch of the temps and try to establish some patterns etc tomorrow but if nothing else gives some good info that can assist in lieu of a PID - and all for under 5mins work and $10 (thermocouple and digital thermometer sourced via you know where). Doesn't have to be a world beater to make that viable. :-)

  34. #184
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    so just got my first proper machine thought i'd make my first proper post I just picked up a silvia V4 coupled with a rocky grinder for a really good deal. After doing a ton of research I also settled on the MeCoffee PID (https://mecoffee.nl/) to pair with it. For its price and features I think its a great deal and shipping was not unreasonable. Hopefully all will arrive sometime next week and I can set it all up, can't wait! going to be great to finally get my first proper machine to play on after coming from mostly using commercial machines and my own aero-press. pretty happy to have spent under $1500 all up for everything, now just to source some good fresh beans I can get delivered I had a laugh.
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  35. #185
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    How much did it cost landed in oz? Let us know how it was to install too

  36. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhatBoy View Post
    How much did it cost landed in oz? Let us know how it was to install too
    my paypal says i paid 199.14 AU all up including postage, so not to bad, will be able to tell you guys how long it takes also they estimate 5-10 days. I've watched a ton of videos and read a bunch on how it installs and it looks a bit fiddly but shouldn't be a problem. also have a friend at another forum which is how i even heard about it thats installed one and said its pretty easy as long as you take your time and dont get flustered. i will let you all know how it goes. really looking forward to seeing how it works love the idea of having it run thru an app unlike a bunch of other PIDS i saw that required an LCD screen. going to be pairing it up with some of Fiefy's Barista Blend from beanbay for my first proper try at making some home brewed coffee on something half decent for a change, can't wait to see how it tastes!

  37. #187
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    Arrive yet?

  38. #188
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    The install video is terrible, his hands cover block the view of everything

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    Yeah they even mention not to just go off the install video I had a laugh. Luckily they have a set of detailed instructions. It arrived yesterday was hoping to install it today will see how i go time permitting and let you know.

  40. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayuki View Post
    Yeah they even mention not to just go off the install video I had a laugh. Luckily they have a set of detailed instructions. It arrived yesterday was hoping to install it today will see how i go time permitting and let you know.
    I took the plunge as well, and got the tested and sent confirmation email from Jan last Wednesday. From watching the video and reading the instructions a couple of times it seems easy enough to install, so I will interested to hear if that is actually the case.

  41. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayuki View Post
    Yeah they even mention not to just go off the install video I had a laugh. Luckily they have a set of detailed instructions. It arrived yesterday was hoping to install it today will see how i go time permitting and let you know.
    Excellent. Can't wait to see what you think.

  42. #192
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    The mecoffee arrived for me yesterday, so did the install last night. Instructions were easy to follow and having the installation video to reference when tucking the unit inside the machine was very handy. I will open a new thread and add some pictures.
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  43. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by millsii View Post
    The mecoffee arrived for me yesterday, so did the install last night. Instructions were easy to follow and having the installation video to reference when tucking the unit inside the machine was very handy. I will open a new thread and add some pictures.
    Awesome looking forward to hearing how it goes as i still havt gotten around to installing mine yet. Had my FIL in the ICU the past week so havnt had the time

  44. #194
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    Gave up on my android because it needed a 7 order polynomial for the k tyre, Auber PID just connected and it is working, What a difference it makes, wished i did it years ago.

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