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Thread: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

  1. #1
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    Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    .....at the current exchange rate even the cheapest PID kit from Jim is around $492 AUS delivered, which is out of the question at the moment. *:(

    Until the exchange rate improves, a lot, Ive been tryin to come up with a simple work around.

    My idea is to try and locate a thermocouple similar to the one Jim uses in his kits and attach it in the same place using the one of the screws that hold the Silvias thermostats to the boiler.

    I could run the lead from the TC to a digital thermometer like this one QM1602
    This would give me the ability to monitor the boiler/water temp and make "temp surfing" easier with less guess work.

    Ok idea, or waste of time? *:)

  2. #2
    Senior Member greenman's Avatar
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    It would give you a reading of the boiler temp as the PID thermocouple is attached at that point.
    Jim recommends the PID setting at 109C so you would be able to monitor when the boiler is at that point and pull your shot.
    Im thankful I bought mine before the $$$ dived!!!

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by greenman link=1227428190/0#1 date=1227428653
    It would give you a reading of the boiler temp as the PID thermocouple is attached at that point.
    Jim recommends the PID setting at 109C so you would be able to monitor when the boiler is at that point and pull your shot.
    Yeah thats the theory. Instead of a PID unit using the info to cycle the element , it would be really useful info for me to know when the temp was right for a shot. Once I pulled a few shots at different temps I could decide which temp was the "optimal" tasting one and use the thermo to make things 100% repeatable


    Quote Originally Posted by greenman link=1227428190/0#1 date=1227428653
    Im thankful I bought mine before the $$$ dived!!!
    I shoulda got with the program early like you

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Gronk,

    Its a good idea and much better than flying blind.
    You will learn a lot about the machine this way.

    With a temp readout you will see just how quickly and how much the temp rises during the heating phase.
    I suspect you will only approach 100% repeatable shots with this method if you pull your shots during the heater off/cooling cycle....ie reverse temp surfing.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by reubster link=1227428190/0#3 date=1227484867
    I suspect you will only approach 100% repeatable shots with this method if you pull your shots during the heater off/cooling cycle....ie reverse temp surfing.
    Also if the temp is too low I can (and do) flick the steam switch on for a few seconds. With the thermometer I should be able to carefully bring the temp up to about the right spot :)

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by gronk62 link=1227428190/0#4 date=1227491225
    Also if the temp is too low I can (and do) flick the steam switch on for a few seconds. With the thermometer I should be able to carefully bring the temp up to about the right spot :)

    mmmmmmm maybe not quite.

    The element is relatively large interms of the volume of water in the boiler, I find if it is held full-on [via steam switch, pid, thermostat etc] for say 5 seconds and then switched off its residual heat will continue to heat the water and the temp will continue to rise.
    [A bit like an electric stove top element, switch it off and your eggs will still keep cooking]

    So it may be hard to nail: you would have to switch it off prior to the temp you wanted and allow for the rise, plus you would also have to factor other conditions such as what part of the cycle the boiler is in when you started.
    This is one of the key differences of a PID, when the PID is operating as it turns the element on and off in little bursts and as the set point is neared, the bursts get smaller and further apart.

    But yes, if you played around with it and got a feel for its response you would be able to improve on what you can achieve without the thermometer.
    Even if you go a little over your preferred temp the wait for it to drop back wouldnt be too long...from memory the temp drop is about first crack per 20 seconds.

    You can still get reasonablly repeatable shots by simply waiting for max boiler temp, running water via the steam wand and watching for the point where the steam and spluttering stops, and then pull the shot.

    Obviously, It depends a bit on your definition of repeatable and the level of your palate.
    On any machine, good shots must be pulled within a certain temp range [say +/-second crack]
    With minimal practise the above method can hit this range in a repeatable way.
    But many can pick the flavour change of +/-first crack [or less] so whilst 2 shots will be good, one may be better than an other.

    If you can be bothered and like a fiddle, Id still recommend you fit a thermocouple if you can be bothered as you will gain heaps of useful info on your machine.
    Perhaps combining the two methods [flush and temp watch] could be the answer.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by gronk62 link=1227428190/0#4 date=1227491225
    Also if the temp is too low I can (and do) flick the steam switch on for a few seconds. With the thermometer I should be able to carefully bring the temp up to about the right spot *:)

    Quote Originally Posted by reubster link=1227428190/0#5 date=1227574134
    mmmmmmm maybe not quite.

    The element is relatively large interms of the volume of water in the boiler, I find if it is held full-on [via steam switch, pid, *thermostat etc] for say 5 seconds and then switched off its residual heat will continue to heat the water and the temp will continue to rise.
    [A bit like an electric stove top element, switch it off and your eggs will still keep cooking]
    Itll be a bit of a learning curve, but surely easier than the guess work of regular Silvia temp surfing without a digital readout. :)

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    Id like to PID Silvia, but this will do for now..

    Ok the job is done and it works like a charm.

    Thermocouple mounted using the screw for the steam thermostat


    Routing


    More routing


    All finished *:)
    ezorrilla likes this.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Good job G62,

    Should make "surfing" a hell of a lot easier and much more consistent, allowing for the differential between the Group and top of the Boiler. Also gives you the flexibility to try pours at different temperatures with different coffees to see what works best with what. Interesting brewing times ahead, eh?

    Cheers mate, :)
    Mal.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Did you get the thermocouple from Jaycar Gronk?
    [edit]What type of terminal did you use, was it a standard crimp on electrical terminal? [/edit]

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    Senior Member greenman's Avatar
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Nice work Gronk, should make life easier!!

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Looks like a great way to accurately monitor a reverse temp surf. I will also be able to tell where temp is when I walk up to Silvia i.e. has it just/recently switched off heater element. Then, if I PID, thermocouple can take up full time duty in the soon to be developed roasting division. I like what I see.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Yeah, really nice work......what they all said!
    Keep us posted as to how you go.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Thanks all for the thumbs up *:)


    Quote Originally Posted by vicroamer link=1227428190/0#9 date=1227728936
    Did you get the thermocouple from Jaycar Gronk?
    [edit]What type of terminal did you use, was it a standard crimp on electrical terminal? [/edit]
    Yep the thermocouple and digital temp gauge came as a kit from from Jaycar QM1602

    I carefully crimped.. well not really crimped, more like gently squeezed a cheapy electrical terminal onto the end of the TC, leaving the tiny wires and temp ball exposed. I just bent it down to touch the fitting. Not really ideal, but Im getting reasonably accurate readings.
    Thermostat switches off between 106 - 109 C and switches on again between 91 - 93 C

    Its so handy knowing where the boiler temp is at. If its a few degrees too low I just hit the steam switch for a few seconds, wait for the lag to catch up and hit it again if needed to bring it up to shot temp. Currently trialing different temps but on Jim (PID Kits) advice I aim for around the 109C mark, give or take.
    My shots have been much more consistent today so Im pretty stoked with the results so far.

    Obviously its still a manual temp surfing process, but at least I have a visual of where the temp is at, instead o flying completely blind.

    Its a $40 mod, takes less than half an hour to install, and is a perfect "work around" until the exchange rate improves enough to buy a real PID kit.

    Jim has been PMing me over the last few days with helpful advice and Im very grateful for his input. A true gentleman! *[smiley=thumbsup.gif]

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    I forgot to say, while Silvia was stripped bare I took the opportunity to sort out some of the excessive "rattles" its had since new.

    I repositioned the pump and fittings slightly to move them away from the metal plate that separates the pump cavity from the water reservoir. The braided high pressure supply hose comes in contact with this plate and makes it rattle.

    I also put a strip of double sided tape along the full width of the mount for this plate. The plate attaches with 2 screws and the section between the screws rattles against the mount due to the vibration caused by the pump. The double sided tape completely damps this vibration.

    End result is a MUCH quieter Silvia. Its almost a purr now instead of a jack hammer *:)

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    G62 EXCELLENT STUFF

    Remember what you are doing is Temp Surfing, ie you are basing your actions on temperature.
    A lot of people who talk about tempsurfing but are not using a thermometer, so are really only time surfing.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    I disagree reubster.

    The difference between the two is the observations used to guage the temp.
    Obviously a thermometer is more accurate but both are temp surfing if the temp is different at the given points.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Just finished "gronking" my Silvia. No time to fully test today, but initial temp readings are: heater off at 102C, drift up to 116C, heater back on 90C. Looking forward to pulling some shots tomorrow.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by ento link=1227428190/0#17 date=1228279170
    Just finished "gronking" my Silvia. *No time to fully test today, but initial temp readings are: heater off at 102C, drift up to 116C, heater back on 90C. *Looking forward to pulling some shots tomorrow.
    Cool! I was hoping others would try this simple mod. *[smiley=thumbsup.gif]


    Well Ive had a few days now to home in on a good temp range for my current beans and climate conditions.
    Ive found pulling shots between 112 - 114 C to be about right.

    Jim explained some things about the average temp of the group head affecting the water temp as it reaches the puck.
    His standard set point of 109C means the group head on a PIDd machine probably runs a higher average temp than a non PIDd machine.
    This would explain why I need to pull the shot with the boiler temp between 112 -114C

    During colder months I assume Id need to raise this a degree or 2 to compensate for the colder average group head temp.
    Visa versa during hotter months.

    Anyway the end result of this simple mod is that temp surfing is an absolute no brainer. No need to time or guess anything, and every shot can be consistent.

    Also on Jims advice Im going to move the thermocouple connection to the screw on the brew thermostat that is farthest from the water inlet. Jim says Ill get more consistent readings from this area of the boiler.

    Thanks again for your help Jim *[smiley=thumbsup.gif]

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Like you said this makes temp surfing much more consistent. (I lost count of the number of times the phone interrupted a reverse temp surf using a timer). I am really happy with this mod. I located my temp sensor in a slightly different location, -between the sensor below the thermostat and the boiler body. (About 1cm to the left of where the sensor is in your 1st picture) and insulated/secured it with a strand of thread tape. I have been pulling the shot at 109, and these are consistently good (using my slightly informed palate), but with your experience in mind I will try some hotter shots to compare taste.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by ento link=1227428190/0#19 date=1228967884
    *I have been pulling the shot at 109, and these are consistently good (using my slightly informed palate), but with your experience in mind I will try some hotter shots to compare taste.
    Cool! Another successful mod *[smiley=thumbsup.gif]

    I initially tried pulling shots at 109C but they were sour so I crept the temps up till they started tasting good which falls between 112 - 114C

    Just go with what temp gives good results. I dont think these cheapy digital thermometers are very accurate anyway. I just use mine as a rough guide *:)

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Totally agree about the accuracy - I had a problem with the original TC and when they replaced it, we tested the temp variation between two identical digital gauges using the new TC, and temp was cosistantly 2deg different. Probably just a calibration thing, and as you say it just gives a number to work to or from, doesnt really matter what the number is, as long as it says the same number at the same temp every time.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Really interesting thread.

    Can I just clarify that the only real difference between gronking and piding is that with piding you could pull the shot at any time you like (after youve heated machine up etc) and be spot on the correct temp. With gronking, so long as you started pulling the shot at precisely the right temperature (whatever that is - say 109) then it will produce identical results to a pidded machine. The disadvantage with gronking is that you have to wait until it hits this correct temperature.

    Have I got that right or is a PID providing some additional advantage?

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by hughwebb link=1227428190/20#22 date=1229508572
    Really interesting thread.

    Can I just clarify that the only real difference between gronking and piding is that with piding you could pull the shot at any time you like (after youve heated machine up etc) and be spot on the correct temp. *With gronking, so long as you started pulling the shot at precisely the right temperature (whatever that is - say 109) then it will produce identical results to a pidded machine. *The disadvantage with gronking is that you have to wait until it hits this correct temperature.

    Have I got that right or is a PID providing some additional advantage?
    PIDing is set and forget. The electronics take care of the whole process and all you have to do is pull your shot (once the machine has stabilised at the set point temp)
    I fully intend to PID mine, but not until the $$ exchange rate improves to the point where the PID arrives at my door for a sensible price. The poor state of the Aussie $ make it unreasonably expensive, at least for my meagre budget. :(

    So .. umm.. "gronking" my machine was a nice half measure and will do me for now.
    Yes I still have to wait for the temp to be at the right point, but I had to do this anyway without the thermometer.
    The thermo just makes it a whole lot easier :)

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Thanks, yeah I realise a heck of a lot cheaper to gronk than pid.

    Im very keen to follow your lead - just wanted to check I understood all of the pros and cons of the two approaches.

  26. #26
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Nice work Gronk. Very clever. Would I be correct in assuming that this could be done to almost any machine which suffers from temperature instability?

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 22a link=1227428190/20#25 date=1229542641
    Nice work Gronk. Very clever. Would I be correct in assuming that this could be done to almost any machine which suffers from temperature instability?
    Thanks :)

    Im not familiar with the internal workings of other machines, but I cant think of any reason it couldnt be done.
    Just attach the thermocouple to the best spot for monitoring temp and it should be good to go :)

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    I suppose the next logical step in this progression (gronk2 ?) would be to add some sort of a cheap dimmer switch in series with the brew thermostat. *In theory, by dialing the dimmer until the heater output matches the heat loss from the boiler, a person could manually maintain any desired boiler temperature by using the thermometer for feedback.

    Warning: *I have absolutely no idea if this is a practical, or safe, thing to do. *But it is an interesting thought experiment, dont you think? *::)

    Jim

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Gday Jim

    I reckon itd need to be a pretty burly dimmer. Without looking up the info I assume the heating element would be somewhere in the vicinity of 2000 - 2400 watts (?) which would rule out those cheap lighting dimmers.

    hmmmm... this has got me thinking... :)

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by gronk62 link=1227428190/20#28 date=1229577025
    Gday Jim

    I reckon itd need to be a pretty burly dimmer. Without looking up the info I assume the heating element would be somewhere in the vicinity of 2000 - 2400 watts (?) which would rule out those cheap lighting dimmers.

    hmmmm... this has got me thinking... *:)
    Nah...I think the new ones are 1100w. ;)

  31. #31
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    And you can source Floodlight Dimmers of up to 3KW or so rating aimed at QH style floodlights with various rated devices in between these and the various domestic units available.

    Mal.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Unless I am missing something, this seems like a retro mod in that you would have to employ other over-rides to enable recovery from heat loss after pulling a shot or it would be incredibly slow, as maintenance of boiler temp would be very low wattage. Sure you could work around this but without the full automation of a PID it could create more issues than it solves. I think the beauty of the Gronk is its simplicity. I find mine works exactly as I hoped it would with minimal fuss.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by ento link=1227428190/20#31 date=1229633366
    Unless I am missing something, this seems like a retro mod in that you would have to employ other over-rides to enable recovery from heat loss after pulling a shot or it would be incredibly slow, as maintenance of boiler temp would be very low wattage. *Sure you could work around this but without the full automation of a PID it could create more issues than it solves. *I think the beauty of the Gronk is its simplicity. *I find mine works exactly as I hoped it would with minimal fuss.
    Ento

    If your dimmer was capable of a setting allowing 100% power it would give you a faster cycle than the thermostat, albeit it would require human intervention.

    Following a shot, the dimmer would be manually adjusted to 100% so the reheating would be the same as for a closed thermostat.
    As you approached the required temperature, you would back back [dim] its setting to slow its approach.
    Theoretically with this control, you could avoid overshoot [which requires long waits for cooldown] so it could end up faster.

    PID operation is basically modeled on how humans conscientiously/subconscientially make realtime adjustments to a system and with Jims "Dimmer" suggestion we are sort comming around full circle.

    Anywhoo, the $Aus is back on the move [@70cents last time I checked] so the PID may end up cheaper than a Multimeter, Thermocouple & 1KW dimmer .

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by reubster link=1227428190/20#32 date=1229646846
    Anywhoo, the $Aus is back on the move [@70cents last time I checked] so the PID may end up cheaper than a Multimeter, Thermocouple & 1KW dimmer .
    Fingers crossed it climbs to 80+ cents!
    Anything over that makes the PID kits an affordable option

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by reubster link=1227428190/20#32 date=1229646846
    Following a shot, the dimmer would be manually adjusted to 100% so the reheating would be the same as for a closed thermostat. *
    As you approached the required temperature, you would back back [dim] its setting to slow its approach.
    Theoretically with this control, you could avoid overshoot [which requires long waits for cooldown] so it could end up faster.

    PID operation is basically modeled on how humans conscientiously/subconscientially make realtime adjustments to a system and with Jims "Dimmer" suggestion we are sort comming around full circle.
    Reubster -

    Very well summarised. *Thanks.

    Jim


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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Yeah, I think its one of those "it can be done" kind of mods but when you sit back and think about it you inevitably come to the conclusion "Why would you?". Thats how I read it anyway....

    Mal.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Very eloquently put Mal.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    When adding the thermocouple to our Silvia I added a tiny dab which is a technical term for slightly less than a little bit :-) of silicone thermal transfer compound (white paste) to ensure good contact to the boiler.

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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Ive now done this mod, also used the same Jaycar meter and thermocouple as the OP. *I just stuck the thermocouple on with Heatsink Plaster, it set like silastic, in hindsight I should have used the heatsink *plaster to mount the t/c onto a terminal and attach that to a screw but its on now and I can redo it at a later date if need be.
    The 100 deg thermostat clicks on at 90 and off at 110 so it looks like the 100 degrees is a average temperature. The temp continues to rise to 124 degrees, before it stabilises and slowly drops. The result is I have found my earlier guesstimates with time surfing were way out.
    Flicking the steam switch off and on reduces the overshoot and gives a measure of control, rather than waiting for the brew thermostat to go through its cycle.
    Watching the temperature readout is also handy for steaming, if I was to go for a PID I dont think steam control would be necessary, handy but not essential.

  40. #40
    sdg
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 5B4E5352570A0E3C0 link=1227428190/13#13 date=1227766466
    Its so handy knowing where the boiler temp is at. If its a few degrees too low I just hit the steam switch for a few seconds, wait for the lag to catch up and hit it again if needed to bring it up to shot temp. Currently trialing different temps but on Jim (PID Kits) advice I aim for around the 109C mark, give or take.
    My shots have been much more consistent today so Im pretty stoked with the results so far.
    Completely agree with the "knowing where the boiler temp is at" part, especially with Silvias looong cycle -- well worth doing for that alone :)

    But I do have a question for those whove tried this so far -- how long after the boiler goes off does it take to get down to 109*C? (or shot-pulling temperature in general)

    Cause my machine takes 5 minutes *( :o ) to get back to that sort of temp -- also Ive tried pulling shots after waiting (nearly) that long, *and they were crap (well, 4 mins, but that was quite bad enough)

    My Silvia comes on at 92, off at 113 (43 secs later), temp rises far another 35 secs to 125-126, then (if no shots are pulled) steadily decreases for the next 15 minutes. At 100 secs after boiler off, which is when I usually pull my shots, its reading 120*C. *:-?

    So, obviously I should pull the shot when it tastes best, but still seems like a bit of a discrepancy *:-/

  41. #41
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    @ simone

    5 minutes does sound way too long to wait.
    I havent used a Silvia but wondered, could you not draw a small amount of water from the boiler then replace it with some from the tank?
    You could probably work out how much with some quick trial and error and that would shorten the wait.

  42. #42
    sdg
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Hi TG,

    no, the problem is more one of measurement discrepancy -- if I did wait til the *measured* temp had dropped to an alleged 109*C the shot would be horrible, and Ive been assuming this is because the water at the group is way too cool by then. So my question is more like, why, when my temp ramp-up seems comparable to other peoples do I seem to have to pull my shot at a much higher measured temp? Do the "modern" Silvia boilers cool down that much faster than the old ones?

  43. #43
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Either that or your measured temp is different for a reason you have yet to work out.

  44. #44
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 647370170 link=1227428190/39#39 date=1232290801
    Quote Originally Posted by 5B4E5352570A0E3C0 link=1227428190/13#13 date=1227766466
    Its so handy knowing where the boiler temp is at. If its a few degrees too low I just hit the steam switch for a few seconds, wait for the lag to catch up and hit it again if needed to bring it up to shot temp. Currently trialing different temps but on Jim (PID Kits) advice I aim for around the 109C mark, give or take.
    My shots have been much more consistent today so Im pretty stoked with the results so far.
    Completely agree with the "knowing where the boiler temp is at" part, especially with Silvias looong cycle -- well worth doing for that alone *:)

    But I do have a question for those whove tried this so far -- how long after the boiler goes off does it take to get down to 109*C? (or shot-pulling temperature in general)

    Cause my machine takes 5 minutes *( :o ) to get back to that sort of temp -- also Ive tried pulling shots after waiting (nearly) that long, *and they were crap (well, 4 mins, but that was quite bad enough)

    My Silvia comes on at 92, off at 113 (43 secs later), temp rises far another 35 secs to 125-126, then (if no shots are pulled) steadily decreases for the next 15 minutes. At 100 secs after boiler off, which is when I usually pull my shots, its reading 120*C. *:-?

    So, obviously I should pull the shot when it tastes best, but still seems like a bit of a discrepancy *:-/
    Simone, I tried pulling the original shots at 109 and they were too sour.
    I crept my temps up till I found a range that tasted right.

    Ive quoted the following post from earlier in this thread
    Quote Originally Posted by 706578797C2125170 link=1227428190/20#20 date=1228977139
    I initially tried pulling shots at 109C but they were sour so I crept the temps up till they started tasting good which falls between 112 - 114C

    Just go with what temp gives good results. I dont think these cheapy digital thermometers are very accurate anyway. I just use mine as a rough guide *:)
    Once you home in on the indicated temp range for your setup that tastes right you should be able to repeat the process with a lot more consistency than guessing the temp based on time elapsed. *:)

  45. #45
    A_M
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Am assuming you guys are using J type... Thus has a stated accuracy of ±2.2șC or ±0.75% *which ever is the greatest..

    Add that error to the error in your meter ( at least +/- 1.0șC * and usualy 2.0șC or greater ) *and your accuracy is about +/- 4C at BEST.

    So as stated in an earlier post above on this topic... *The temps that your reading - is only an INDICATOR... *and the real measurement is in the quality and consistency of your product...

    If two people are trying to directly compare and set up to exact readings... *Then even with the same model meter and probe ( Total Accuracy of 4C) then you could be in fact 8C difference... *One reading high and the other low... *That is why there are traceable standards and when technical people work on the same product across distances etc, they have to be able to reproduce the same results and have confidence in their methods..

    I guess I just want to stress that be it brew temp or roast temp... *Most of the systems I hear people say they are using are only indicators.

    My cheep system +/- *0.5 Accuracy in total *and NATA certified was only $900... * *Our systems at work, which are accurate down to 0.01 are many $K and cost hundreds each, every year to re certify.


  46. #46
    sdg
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 4F60696B7C436F606F696B636B607A0E0 link=1227428190/44#44 date=1232352645
    If two people are trying to directly compare and set up to exact readings... *Then even with the same model meter and probe ( Total Accuracy of 4C) then you could be in fact 8C difference... *One reading high and the other low
    Well, yes. This is why I made the point about the peak temperature being comparable.

    Still wondering how long Silvia owners generally have to wait for the machine to cool to shot-pulling temp, though.

  47. #47
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Hi Simone.... :)

    There are hundreds of videos on YouTube alone about this, including the one below, which might help you out a bit...

    [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7Bn5IjZht8[/media]

    Mal.

  48. #48
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Hi all, i reckon the next step along the DIY line is to build your own PID.

    Ive almost finished a microcontroller project which can take a thermistor (not thermocouple as honestly, they are not as accurate, and cost more!), and via the ADC on the uC determines when to signal the relay on and off, ie duty cycle. This would interface to a PC via USB and appear as a serial port (no drivers required). The limitation here is there is no LCD panel with buttons to increase/decrease temp, that could be a later addition.

    This is all very cheap and reasonably simple, the uC and thermistor is all avail from Jaycar, as is the SSR.

    Ive got a LeLit Combi so I have a little different wiring I need to sort out, but it would easily adapt to the Silvia.

    Finally what Id like to try, is PIDing for both the brew and steam temperature, because within the uC I can call the same functions, just working off a different pre-set temp.

    Ill share it all when Im done, but I thought this was a logical next step. Once the code and schematic is sorted it will be a lot easier for those wanting to give it a shot. So far I have spent $50, and the big ticket items are out of the way.

    PS. For the uC Im not a PIC fan, I use AVR.

  49. #49
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by 435457300 link=1227428190/45#45 date=1232461306
    Still wondering how long Silvia owners generally have to wait for the machine to cool to shot-pulling temp, though.
    Ive never bothered to time it. I was happy to be finished with time based temp surfing.

    Ill try and take notice tomorrow and post the time lapse.

  50. #50
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    Re: Id really like to PID my Silvia, but...

    Still wondering how long Silvia owners generally have to wait for the machine to cool to shot-pulling temp
    After fitting the thermocouple I recorded some time/temps after the light goes out, I just used my wrist watch second hand for timing so times could be a second or two either way, but it will give you a idea.
    Minutes.seconds-temp
    1.30-122, 1.40-121, 1.50-120.5, 2.00-120, 2.10-119, 2.20-118.5, 2.30-118, 2.40-117.5, 2.50-117, 3.00-116, 3.70-115.5, 3.20-115, 3.30-114.5, 3.40-114, 3.50-113. 4.00-113, 4.10-112.5, 4.20-112, 4.30-111.5, 4.40-111, 4.50-110.5
    I did a quick check last night and the temps were 1 degree less than the original measurement.
    Im currently starting the pour at 113 degrees but that may change. 8-)

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