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Thread: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

  1. #1
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    Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Ok people!, here is the link to download the new and improved Step By Step Guide on installing and running a PID in a Silvia, it covers all the gear needed, including where to get it from, right through the full install and finishing off with tuning the PID to your liking, its about 30 pages long and around 38Mb, it is in a PDF format with heaps of pictures and information from start to finish

    New link compliments of miamichillin99: http://www.mediafire.com/file/ygnhcnhaggzhbew

    I hope you find it beneficial and will welcome any suggestions or problems.

    cheers and enjoy!
    WSully

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Please let me know if youve downloaded it and if you have any questions about the guide, if you have any ideas on viable improvements. im keen to get some feedback on the guide.....
    cheers ladies and gents
    wsully

  3. #3
    sdg
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Hi Sully,

    downloaded your excellent guide back in June; you made it look easy enough that I was immediately inspired to dive in! (like, "how hard can it be?" *::) ). The emphasis on "no drilling or hacking" was a major selling point for me.*So was rather hoping to be back with feedback/queries way before now. Alas its taking a while for our el-cheapo pid to swim here from China (grrr). (Picked one that seemed to match the one in the guide, but seems theres multiple suppliers of these things..)

    At least now theyre actually claiming tove posted it, so hopes are high... well let you know how it goes *:)

    But one immediate query, now I look thru it again -- hows the double-sided tape holding up? Silvia gets pretty warm...

    Cheers, Simone

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Hey simone!,
    Im so glad you found the guide useful and are doing the mod yourself!, hope your pid comes soon!
    As for the Double sided tape, the 3M stuff did not work too well, so i went to bunnings and got some heavy duty stuff, its black with a green removable backing, and about 20mm wide, it works a treat, rock solid! The problem with the 3M stuff was more me than the tape, i hold onto the PID enclosure when removing the PF, putting more pressure on it, but with the new tape.....not a problem, oh and also dont forget to heat shrink all your connections to the boiler wires to protect them well, i am going to add it to the guide, just havent gotten around to it yet, feel free to ask me any other questions along the way!
    cheers
    wsully

  5. #5
    sdg
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Woo-hoo! My slow boat from China has finally berthed! Project for tomorrow -- Silvia look out...


  6. #6
    sdg
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Whew -- done... (last night)... now tuning (1st attempt doesnt seem tove been entirely satisactory). Further comments will follow in a bit... *:)

    <later> oh-oh -- looks like my co-conspirator is writing a full report *:o *Ill leave him to it...

    For my part (thatd currently be the coffee-making and drinking part) all seems to be going well -- Ill probably need to up my setpoint a little, and as noted in the guide the auto-tuned values dont quite cut it as regards recovery time; I could play with them further, OR I could go straight to the final values as sussed out by Warren -- decisions, decisions *::)

    Main changes -- the PID pictured in the guide can indeed be squeezed (just) into the next size down enclosure (so we did); the TC was attached under the LH brew thermostat screw (this was where I had it for gronking, as suggested in that thread), and it was deemed necessary to drill (eek!) one small hole in the panel that the SSR was attached to, to make totally sure it wouldnt move *:-?

    Re the guide itself -- we had it open on the laptop next to proceedings; this works really well (can see the pix and save those forests!), but using a long doc for reference really appreciates bookmarks imho (I bookmarked the 9 steps in my copy; very handy)

    And the distillation of the autotuning procedure for this PID was gold -- I am eternally grateful I didnt have to figure that out from the instruction sheet that came with it *:o

    Excellent work Warren, and thanks! *[smiley=tekst-toppie.gif]

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Hi,

    Would you like all my thoughts in their gory detail here, or maybe just mailed?

    Regards,
    Garry

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    A_M
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4054402121100 link=1246334170/6#6 date=1249310779
    Hi,

    Would you like all my thoughts in their gory detail here, or maybe just mailed?

    Regards,
    Garry

    I would suggest you e-mail all the issues etc as per the document and his addy..

    Maybe post a summary here ?


    For me... I am anal and while I do not have a pid or Silvia....

    1: Year / Model needs to identified as there could be slight changes.

    2: No Bookmarks :-?

    3: No page numbers :o

    4: No links to other resources :-/

    5: No footer / header

    6: Additional warnings need to be added / embedded in the footer as teh Electrical safety.

    Even if you do all the work non energised... Before it is plugged in, it is required to be tested.. A short or other mistakes could just blow the cct... Worse case... We do not want to go there.



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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Installation completed yesterday and we are currently tuning the PID. Ill skip the installation details/photos. The PID can be easily squeezed into the HB-6011 if you do things in the right sequence. There are a number of ways of improving electrical safety, found some errors in the current instructions, and have some suggestions. Ive sent my thoughts via email as suggested.

    Regards,
    Garry

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    cheers for the feedback ppl, i will review the suggestions and change the guide as appropriate.

    Although, as i stated at the start of the guide, i am far from an expert, this was my attempt to help people out and hopefully introduce new members to CS through a google search, there isnt too much specific info out there on this install, so ill try and figure out how to bookmark it, and put in page numbers and upload it again, your a hard crowd to please ;), with even more warnings about the bad things electricity can and will do :o

    Thankyou Simone for the compliments, im glad i could help you out.

  11. #11
    A_M
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0A0E283131342B3C335D0 link=1246334170/9#9 date=1249352842
    cheers for the feedback ppl, i will review the suggestions and change the guide as appropriate.

    Although, as i stated at the start of the guide, i am far from an expert, this was my attempt to help people out and hopefully introduce new members to CS through a google search, there isnt too much specific info out there on this install, so ill try and figure out how to bookmark it, and put in page numbers and upload it again, your a hard crowd to please ;), with even more warnings about the bad things electricity can and will do :o

    Thankyou Simone for the compliments, im glad i could help you out.
    Dont rush... A valiant effort and when ya pop over, bring the master doc on a usb stick..

    You will be provided with some Apps training :-) Word and Adobe...

    Now to find a guru in Access :-)

  12. #12
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    no worries AM, cheers, hey whats teh go with the get together on the 9th, still all go go?

  13. #13
    A_M
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7C785E4747425D4A452B0 link=1246334170/11#11 date=1249363570
    no worries AM, cheers, hey whats teh go with the get together on the 9th, still all go go?
    Yep... Why... Is there a problem ?

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Nah AM, ill be there with bells on ::) and clothes :o

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Just put another thermocouple into Silvia at the same location as the PIDs thermocouple so we can capture readings on the laptop. With Silvia cold Ive noticed the PID reading a few degrees low compared to one of my Digital Multimeters. Maybe a problem with the reference junctions not being correct so leaving things to settle over the next couple of hours and Ill recheck with a couple of different DMMs.

    Interested to know if anyone has seen PID temperature reading errors. Ive installed it into the smaller Jiffy box and there maybe a problem with the heat inside the plastic box causing temperature reading errors. A few Watts dissipated inside a small, insulated plastic box can be a significant temperature rise. Hope I dont have to drill holes for cooling. Although if the PID reference junction temperature is hot the reading should be high. Other possibilities are the thermocouple junction repair with ordinary Tin/Lead solder maybe wrong (dont know if the bead has to be silver soldered or something else special), or just a calibration problem and/or they dont bother to temperature compensate in a cheap Chinese PID.

    All a bit of a mystery at the moment.

    Regards,
    Garry

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6470640505340 link=1246334170/14#14 date=1249538025
    Interested to know if anyone has seen PID temperature reading errors.
    Have a look at this thread on CoffeeGeek.com. *I think it addresses the issues you brought up.

    http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machinemods/434915

    Jim

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Quote Originally Posted by 495D492828190 link=1246334170/14#14 date=1249538025
    Other possibilities are the thermocouple junction repair with ordinary Tin/Lead solder maybe wrong (dont know if the bead has to be silver soldered or something else special) ... *
    It is very difficult to get most solders to wet the alloys in type K wire. *Best way to make the junction is by welding the wires directly together. *All of the commercially made bead sensors Ive personally seen are made by welding.

    If you are making (or repairing) your own, and have somehow misplaced your t/c welder, then tightly twisting the wires together will probably work as well as solder for a type K.

    Jim




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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5246523333020 link=1246334170/14#14 date=1249538025
    they dont bother to temperature compensate in a cheap Chinese PID
    Hey Garry,
    If you check out the instructions you got with your PID, you will find the temp error offset variable in the settings menu, id prolly double check your DMM reading though, as you may be wasting your time, it could be the DMM, and besides, the temp really is irrelevant, its all just an indication, you will have to pull shots to find where the SP needs to be, it will simple hold it there. Hope your having luck tuning the PID, it can be a little frustrating at times but you will find those perfect settings ;) keep at it mate and keep us posted,

    Ps ill be updating the guide soon, thanks for the input, and i must apologise if i sounded a little nasty in my pm, i re-read it last night,and....um :-[ sorry mate, had some personal issues with my dad and i wasnt in the happiest of moods, genuinely sorry if i was rude....
    cheers
    wsullly


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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Just so i get a feel for how the guide is helping/not helping fello CSnobs,
    Cheers Guys and Gals
    Wsully

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Keep up the good work Wsully....
    Its great that you can find an alternative and share it with us.
    Im keen to do it.....Just waiting for the revised edition ;)...... and finding time to attempt it :-/

  21. #21
    sdg
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Quote Originally Posted by 091D096868590 link=1246334170/14#14 date=1249538025
    Just put another thermocouple into Silvia at the same location as the PIDs thermocouple so we can capture readings on the laptop. With Silvia cold Ive noticed the PID reading a few degrees low compared to one of my Digital Multimeters. Maybe a problem with the reference junctions not being correct so leaving things to settle over the next couple of hours and Ill recheck with a couple of different DMMs.
    Noooooo.... not the "my thermocouples reading different from your thermocouple" debate! (just wanted to get in B4 AM weighs in with a reprise of "cheap TC == horrible errors" so no use comparing 2 or more of the wretched things...

    And now Im told that every connection is a "junction", so lets just give it up right there already...

    Currently more interested in the apparent instability of the DMM reading compared to the PID -- wonder what thats about :-?


  22. #22
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    what in gods name is a PID ! ?

  23. #23
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5F444552131B19132B0 link=1246334170/21#21 date=1253101677
    what in gods name is a PID ! ?
    Painfully Ignorant Decaf ;D :o ;D :D ;)


    Sorry..

    Go here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Quote Originally Posted by 537C7577605F737C7375777F777C66120 link=1246334170/22#22 date=1253101798
    Quote Originally Posted by 5F444552131B19132B0 link=1246334170/21#21 date=1253101677
    what in gods name is a PID ! ?
    Painfully Ignorant Decaf * *;D *:o ;D :D ;)


    Sorry..

    Go here - *http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller
    Sorry too,

    It depends--where I work it stands for Pelvic Inflammatory Disease. I could never work out why youd want to install it in a woman named Silvia. :D

    Greg

  25. #25
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Tony,
    a PID is a device we use to stabilize the temperature in machines that dont do it well enough on their own, as you might know, shot taste can alter dramatically =/- first crack and when a silvia has a temp brew range of between 86 - 116 degrees, it needs to be harnessed, this is what a PID does, it cycles the boiler to maintain a specified temperature.

    cheers
    warren

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Quote Originally Posted by 342F2E3978707278400 link=1246334170/21#21 date=1253101677
    what in gods name is a PID ! ?
    It refers to a controller for a process, specifically each letter has meaning to how the controller achieves its control, and how it reacts to changes.


    Some control terms:

    SP is set point, in this case the temperature wanted at the boiler.

    PV is process variable, the actual temperature of the boiler.

    P is Proportional, so the output change is in proportion to the input change, as the output to the element is digital, either on or off, it pulses the element on and off to achieve a sort of proportional output.

    I is integral, a calculus term for the area between a curve and the zero or set point.

    It is used in controllers to remove offset, where the stable condition of* proportional only controller is not on the set point or the desired amount, in this case, temperature.

    D is derivative, another calculus term, but this time looking at the rate of change (the slope of the curve) of the input.

    This makes the controller settle down to the set point much quicker than a P or PI controller.
    I see this on my Sylvia in the "heater on" light stopping pulsing while the indicated temperature was below the set point.



    You need P in all controllers, but modern controllers are PD while older (20 years ago) controllers were PI, if not using full PID.
    To make a controller a PI or PD, the I or D setting is set at zero.
    On some slow changing systems PID isnt always needed.

    A correctly tuned controller should settle down after 3 and a half oscillation.

    So it would be better, or at least more accurate, to call it a PID controller, or just a controller, as this makes the purpose of the device more clear, IMHO anyway.

    Hope this helps rather than confuses.

  27. #27
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Great explanation Andy... [smiley=tekst-toppie.gif]

    That will be a big help to a lot of people wondering what on earth this PID word means. I much prefer to use the term Controller also, as it better describes what the device does....

    Mal.

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    sorry if this is not the right thread.

    What model of PID have you guys got please. I need the full model number as i have access to a watlow account.

    cheers in advance
    forrie

  29. #29
    KJM
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    forrie - pretty much any PID controller will work irrespective of its actual branding. The only real difference is how you program them. You dont need one with ramp/soak, just simple set-point control.

    Go for the smallest physical model - a 1/32nd DIN formfactor. Plus choose one with SSR outputs, rather than relay outputs (the difference is that the SSR will switch on/off on a mSec basis, but the relay one will be about 2seconds on/off minimum).

    While none of my Watlow controllers are steam powered, none of them are current models - so I cant really give a part# that you could purchase in 2011..

    /Kevin

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Could give you auber parts, or sestos, but not Watlow. As KJM says, pretty much any PID will do.* Dual set point might be nice, but not critical.

    Edit:
    PID must be able to drive an SSR, internal relay wont cope.

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Megaupload is no more, can the PID guide be uploaded to some other service please?

    Im looking for a replacement service too.

  32. #32
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Quote Originally Posted by 577C7241677C747B727970150 link=1246334170/30#30 date=1327301957
    Megaupload is no more, can the PID guide be uploaded to some other service please?

    Im looking for a replacement service too.

    Ive got a copy I could email - will PM you

  33. #33
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Why not post it here?


    Java "Attach at will!" phile

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Can 40mb files be attached? I tried but it does say the max size is 5000kb...

  35. #35
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2A2126273A2220490 link=1246334170/33#33 date=1328007822
    Can 40mb files be attached? I tried but it does say the max size is 5000kb...
    Ah, I didnt realize it was that big. It is indeed to beg to post here.


    Java " :( " phile

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Sorry guys, i no longer have a copy of the guide, if someone does please upload it to one of the many file hosting sites and share the link, could a mod please edit the link in the OP once it is shared?

    Sorry.....

    The silvia is looooong gone ;)

  37. #37
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    This is what you see when you go to megaupload.com now......


  38. #38
    miamichillin99
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Chonski PM sent.

  39. #39
    miamichillin99
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    Thanks for Chonski for sending me the file and going throught the trouble of splitting it up to be gmail compatible. Also a big thanks to Wsully for creating such a great guide. The new link is 4-5 posts down as I need to meet a 5 post limit to post a link...

  40. #40
    miamichillin99
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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    heres the new link:
    to PID a Silvia.pdf

    Mods please move the link to the first post in this thread and if you want delete all my garbage posts.

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    Re: Step by Step Guide - Install PID in a Silvia.

    I installed an Auber PID kit on my Sylvia years ago (Silvia long gone to a forum member).

    I took photos and documented the process. Check it out here:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/shawnlow/sets/72157604103927428/

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    Hi,

    Is there a cs proffered or most recommended PID kit? I've recently bought the ranchilio but do foresee upgrading to PID one warrantee is over.

    Thanks

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    As way of an introduction some background information on electrical circuits:

    Electrical Theory by Joseph Lucas

    Positive ground depends upon proper circuit functioning, the transmission of negative ions by retention of the visible spectral manifestation known as "smoke". Smoke is the thing that makes electrical circuits work; we know this to be true because every time one lets the smoke out of the electrical system, it stops working. This can be verified repeatedly through empirical testing. When, for example, the smoke escapes from an electrical component (i.e., say, a Lucas voltage regulator), it will be observed that the component stops working. The function of the wire harness is to carry the smoke from one device to another; when the wire harness "springs a leak", and lets all the smoke out of the system, nothing works afterwards. Starter motors were frowned upon in British Automobiles for some time, largely because they consume large quantities of smoke, requiring very large wires.

    It has been noted that Lucas components are possibly more prone to electrical leakage than Bosch or generic Japanese electrics. Experts point out that this is because Lucas is British and all things British leak. British engines leak oil, shock absorbers, hydraulic forks and disk brakes leak fluid, British tyres leak air and the British defense establishment leaks secrets...so, naturally, British electrics leak smoke.
    [Contributed by John E, , Long Beach, CA]

    After many years of reliable service I found Silvia and all the kitchen's power points were dead. The circuit breaker in the meter box had been tripped. Resetting the circuit breaker restored power and that is when I discovered Silvia's PID had died. When I removed the lid of the box holding the PID it was obvious from the smell that the smoke had escaped from PID electrical components. A 1 squre centimeter of the PID's plastic case was melted and distorted. Inspection of the PID circuit boards showed vaporised tracks, components damaged by heat and burns on the circuit board. The temperature appeared to have been hot enough to melt solder on the board as one component had become desoldered.

    Suggestion:
    It maybe appropriate to add a 500mA or 1A fuse in the 230V power lead to the PID.

  44. #44
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    I did the auber pid install about 2 weeks ago. Took me an hour. Kit is great quality and instruction were good and easy to follow. Couple screwdrivers is all that was required.

    Must admit my consistency is waaaaay up now I have the pid in.

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