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Thread: My New Machine

  1. #51
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    I checked that - the sweepers are turning properly. Once I get morning stuff out of the way I will take apart the 450 and see what the guts look like. I had the plastic base off yesterday, a couple of times before I realised I didn't need the hassle of trying to get the microswitch in place as I reassembled it because I could remove the bottom burr with the plastic in place.

    But I had to remove it also, first day, to remove the cockroach detritus and clean everything down - once I killed the squatter I wasn't tasting anything that had been through the machine until I was happy it was well cleaned. *grins*

    On a brighter note, I just had a very good macchiato - not a god shot yet by any stretch but getting up to the best I've had from a café... Looks like the 450 grind on 4 is about right for the Symphony blend - I may have tamped it a fraction too hard - the group handle pressure was a little above the centre line of the gauge. Coffee was yummy but not quite as rich in flavours as I was expecting from the description.

    But pretty damn good for, what is it... coffee number 5 from the machine. And 2 of them were the prehistoric, pre-ground, plunger stuff when I was trying out the machine to make sure it worked.

    Mark is happy chappy...!

    Edit: Got internet issues at present - ISP seems to have dropped our connection - doing this via tethered phone. le sigh...

  2. #52
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    Please don't take this wrong but suggestions about lining up the arrows do not help much - it should be clear from the earlier posts I can pull the machine down, clean and reassemble it without a problem. Lining up those arrows might be handy in post 2 if I said I can't pull it apart.
    There have been many posts here from EM0480 owners about grinding issues and 9 times out of 10 it has to do with not following the owner's manual instructions and aligning the arrows and marks when reassembling the grinder after cleaning.

    You may have an earlier EM0480 but the later ones did have these marks and it was crucial to align them otherwise the grinder wouldn't grind correctly.

    Please don't take this the wrong way but if you "can pull the machine down, clean and reassemble it without a problem" it would be working as it should.
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  3. #53
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    Yes, CafeLotta, I know... that's why I am finding it so frustrating. Except as above (last photos) I don't seem to have any marks nor text on the collar, nor any sign they were ever there. With my net issues I have been trying to get back online as well as work on recovering a HDD and on the netbook that I'm doing in return for the 450. With those processes running, I have a few moments to go look into the 450 and see how similar they are.

    At the moment all I can think of is the previous owner played with the grinder and lost a part or something. But even that is just a desperation thought because I can't see where it would go anyway... le sigh...

    Back soon, hopefully with more info and photo of the upper burr for MrJack.

  4. #54
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    My New Machine

    Journeyman,

    Have you tried grinding on a coarser setting yet?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    I don't seem to have any marks nor text on the collar, nor any sign they were ever there.
    I have checked mine again and the silver collar only fits one way and is rotated all the way anti-clockwise until it stops and then back clockwise 1 to 2mm when the arrows line up on the outside.

    The top burr carrier seems to drop in 2 different ways. The first is when the marks align and the other 180 degrees or half a turn around. Not sure if it makes any difference but when the white marks line up, the flat on the underside of the steel burr faces towards the back of the grinder when installed. Note photo is looking at underside of burr and the flat is at 12 o'clock in the photo.

    May make no difference but might help to discount this as an issue.

    P1000264.jpg


    Just found this, might be of interest -

    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/attachment...tion_Guide.PDF

  6. #56
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    So I stripped them down, side by side. In every photo, the 450 is on the left.
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  7. #57
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    Part 2 - forum will only let me have 5 attachments... Once back together the 450 gave me a good grind, the 480 gave me nothing out the spout. Both machines operate the same - while apart I triggered the grind with the microswitch and both sweep arm sets turn the same.

    Then I put them together and tried a grind in each - the last photo shows the results - note in both I very carefully tipped them sideways to remove the excess beans from the upper burr area.

    Both grinds when back together were at the coarsest setting. On the 480 I tried it, got nothing and reversed the upper burr and tried again with same result.

    I cannot see any physical reason why the grounds will not drop through with the 480 - clearances etc look about the same.

    The 2nd attempt in the 480 the 'flat spot' was to the back of the grinder when the upper burr was dropped into place.
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  8. #58
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    My New Machine

    I would check the grounds path one more time and ensure you can see daylight through it.

  9. #59
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    Up the sp[out and into the sweep area you mean... Will do.

  10. #60
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Have you removed all the washers/spacers from under the bottom burr?

    Have you had the sweeper out to ensure all the paddles are intact?

    sweeper1.jpg

    Process of elimination unfortunately.

  11. #61
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    Checked and clear. Side by side the bottom burr section has the same gap, acts the same, and the sweeps work. Blades on both burrs in both machines feel sharp...

    I HATE a problem that has no apparent resolution - it was what made me a good Desktop Support person. But during the period when there isn't yet an answer I get a bit grouchy...

  12. #62
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    I removed all but the washer that looks like (from comparison with the 450) it belongs there - it covers the hole around the shaft where it goes through the plastic cover. I've tried extra shims. I've had the plastic cover off and the sweep arms are all intact and they move with the bottom burr.

    I'm not sure what the next step is - everything above the motor area works and the motor works and it wouldn't seem to have anything to do with the coffee path anyway. With the 450 to compare it to, it SHOULD BE WORKING! They are identical in all respects and they are working the same except one gives coffee and the other piles it up above the upper burr.

  13. #63
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    do grounds go into the area contacted by the sweeper? or do they all sit above the lower burr set? do you get anything at the absolute coarsest setting?

  14. #64
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    This may be a really silly question but are both grinders spinning in the same direction? Hate to ask the obvious but I can't recall if you mentioned this in earlier posts.

    Are the grinds that are piling up like talc or do they have a grainy feel like sand?

  15. #65
    Senior Member deegee's Avatar
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    On a few occasions I have seen my 480 looking like your last pic above. Clogged up with a mix of beans, broken bits and grinds.
    It happened when I was grinding oily beans, or trying to grind too fine (or both).

    What happens is that the burr teeth start to clog, then grinds pack so tightly into the grooves that the following grinds can't push them out. This may be partly because I only ever put enough beans in the hopper to make one or two cups of coffee, but most times it works O.K. despite this.

    Based on this my guess is that your problem is a lack of clearance between the burrs and that you need less shims / more clearance.

    That odd shaped shim looks familiar too. I think it has been cut from a crimp-on electrical terminal and if it is a soft metal like brass or copper, I'd bet on it.

    I have never had my bottom burr out, so I'm not sure about the next bit, but do you think you could run it with no washers at all under the bottom burr ??
    Or would that cause friction or contact between parts that are not supposed to meet ??. ( or have you tried that already ?)

    I wish I could be more help, because I know the feeling of frustration that comes from the situation you're in. (been there done that).

    Cheers, deegee.

  16. #66
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CafeLotta View Post
    This may be a really silly question but are both grinders spinning in the same direction? Hate to ask the obvious but I can't recall if you mentioned this in earlier posts.

    Are the grinds that are piling up like talc or do they have a grainy feel like sand?
    Was wondering that myself, if someone has worked on it is it possible wires have been reversed and it's running backwards, that would certainly cause the problem?

  17. #67
    Senior Member deegee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Was wondering that myself, if someone has worked on it is it possible wires have been reversed and it's running backwards, that would certainly cause the problem?
    I doubt it. This sort of appliance usually run on an AC induction motor which are not polarity dependent.

    Also to quote Journeyman, "Both machines operate the same - while apart I triggered the grind with the micro-switch and both sweep arm sets turn the same."

  18. #68
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    I haven't tried no burrs at all. Can give that a go later tonight or in the AM. It shouldn't cause an issue because the bottom burr is designed to engage a pin sticking up to drive the sweeper arms. I think the washer is only there to p[rewvent grind from going down into the motor.

    I doubt it is the beans because they run beautifully through the 450. The clog is a possibility but why...? The clearance between the 450 and the 480 look very close to being the same - from what I can see in the adjustment collar, the 'pitch' (think that is the right term) of the thread is fairly high - i.e. the amount of grind difference in each 'click' is fairly high, so if there is a difference in gaps it should be visible.

  19. #69
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    Are the burr set completely identical? Ie; can you swap them around / interchange. That way through process of elimination you may find culprits, my guess is something slightly warped.
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  20. #70
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    Can you test by putting it all back together clean, and then doing a very short grind, and then investigating where the grinds have gone?
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  21. #71
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    70 posts and still no solution in sight, I suspect it's time to take it to someone who know what their doing.

  22. #72
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    The lack of a solution to your problem must be more than frustrating. In searching online to see if anyone else with a similar problem had come up with a solution, the most common cause seemed to be when shims had been added and then clogged the machine like yours by grinding too fine. You said that you had removed all shims. It may be worth going past the coarsest setting when you hit the stop by depressing the button that you do when removing the silver collar. Go 1/4 turn past the point where it hits the stop. You may need to hold the collar while grinding to stop it turning but I checked and the grinder still turns on. May help to discount whether for some reason your grinder is trying to grind too fine. That's all I've got!
    Hope you find an answer.

  23. #73
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    Thank you all for the ideas - bit tied up with the missus and her new book today but should have some time this afternoon to try all the suggestions. I might have a 450 that lets me make coffee but I want to resolve this. I will try the 'coarser than coarse' suggestion as well as the swapping out parts one by one to see if I can transfer the problem to the 450.

    And if I wind up with TWO non-working grinders, I will be absent for a while as I go find Sunbeam execs to see what happens when you frustrate an Aussie...



  24. #74
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    Re: My New Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    Thank you all for the ideas - bit tied up with the missus and her new book today...
    50 shades of grey?

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    50 shades of grey?
    Now it all becomes so clear...the real problem

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    70 posts and still no solution in sight, I suspect it's time to take it to someone who know what their doing.
    I disagree. As Journeyman has said - he is not intellectually challenged. But he is obviously a problem solver, and one who can be tenacious when necessary.

    Also, there are some good suggestions in the last few posts that have to be worth trying before giving up on it.

    Hang in there Journeyman. You could be just one short step away from the solution.

  27. #77
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    A bit of privacy please while he's "a bit tied up".

  28. #78
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    giggled like a schoolgirl... If only you knew about the 50 shades possibilities... le sigh...

    But I have been out and about all day helping my (rather shy) missus to promote her new book, second in a series, and unlike most series these days, a standalone book that is enhanced but not reliant on book 1. Fading Echoes proof copy arrived this morning and with an author signing due at the Old Boundary Hotel here in Milroy St on Sat 16th, 3pm onwards, she felt the need for some instant proofing time... so I did the feller thing and kept grabbing the proof copy from her and telling people...

    On a grind level of 1 to 24 (a 0480 scale) I am guessing the missus is about a 72... A fine grind that, if you ignore this setting, not only will never deliver a god shot but will almost certainly guarantee a devil shot.

    More tomorrow on the grinder...

  29. #79
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    OK, we have some progress!!! I tried the suggestion by CafeLotta and I got coffee out. (the 'turn collar back past coarsest grind position) So I took off the bottom burr and removed even the thin washer that seems to belong there and tried again on coarsest setting and got coffee out. The coffee feels like powder and clumps slightly on the coarsest collar setting so it seems the bottom burr is too close to the top even with no washer/shim at all.

    Now to try the swap over of parts from the 450 to the 480 and see what gives...

    Once I have tried that it will be time to remove the plastic shield and maybe the motor and find out why the bottom burr sits so high - it clearly isn't anything in the upper grinding works so I am thinking maybe the spindle is too high coming up out of the motor or something...

    More soon...

  30. #80
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    You'll probably find that there isn't much in it as far as needing to drop the bottom burr. Could be as a result of general wear and tear from use.

    Check if there is any way to shim the motor down maybe?

  31. #81
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    if you put the upper burr carrier in backwards you may have some extra wiggle room.

  32. #82
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    OK, nothing works in the 480 - except the going past the coarsest setting which does deliver powder. I swapped top burr and bottom burr from one to the other and both work in the 450 but not in the 480.

    Now to pull machine apart...

  33. #83
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    Not sure I am going to be able to lower the burr much if at all. The burr sits on the sweeper assembly, on a washer- bearing race-washer set up. Neither washer can be removed and still have the bearing race work. The spindle disappears into the engine housing from there but changing the spindle height will not affect where the burr sits, just how much thread there is to screw the nut on.

    More investigation to follow...

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    Not sure I am going to be able to lower the burr much if at all etc. etc.. More investigation to follow...
    If there is no way to lower the bottom burr, then perhaps the problem is with the collar. The top burr sits in the collar, and is screwed up/down by the lugs on the burr carrier, engaging the thread in the collar. If for some reason the collar is sitting too low in/on the main housing, the starting position of the top burr will be too low.

    It would be worth looking closely at the two collars side by side to see if there is any difference in the dimensions. And if they are interchangeable, have you tried switching the collars between the two machines ??

    Maybe it's time to raise the bridge if we can't lower the river.

  35. #85
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    I take you, Sunbeam EM0480, and I make you my bitch!!! I now have 2 working grinders!!!

    I took everything apart, including the base, and discovered I really didn't want to get into taking apart wiring and removing motor etc. If I have to I can but still...

    I set to to put things back together, having satisfied myself that there was no way to drop the bottom burr any lower without major modification. As I did so I thought about that odd shaped washer - and that the previous owner or someone she new must have had the machine apart, and I also thought about a comment earlier in either this thread or another of the EM0480 threads I had read, that the biggest effect came from how you tighten the bottom burr down, more so than shims.

    So, with nothing under the bottom burr, I put a bit of effort into the tightening and there was a sudden 'click' effect and all at once I got about another half turn out of the nut.

    I haven't taken it apart yet but I had noticed there was a lip on the little stud sticking up below the bottom burr - you can see it in the right hand pic below - the little silver stud has a clear lip on it. I think I just forced the base of the burr to either break it off or force it back into place and the burr dropped down that extra bit. Now I will undo it to make sure I don't have a little piece of metal bouncing around in there...

    But it grinds and grinds nicely on 10.

    Ahhh...
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  36. #86
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    Thank you everyone for the help, support and even the reticence in calling me incompetent, stupid or advising me to get out of coffee altogether. Much appreciated one and all!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    Thank you everyone for the help, support and even the reticence in calling me incompetent, stupid or advising me to get out of coffee altogether. Much appreciated one and all!!!
    .Well done brother. !
    now we can all sleep again not needing to figure out that problem !

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    Great to hear. Hopefully this thread will be useful to others in the future.

  39. #89
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    It was a journey to say the least... It was very frustrating to keep seeing it LOOK like it should be working and have it fail, over and over. But it's good to get a resolution, particularly one that fixed it. I wouldn't have minded if it was a discard at the end, just so long as I could work out why, so to have a reason AND have it working is lamost bliss.

    And it made a superb latté...

  40. #90
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    Where there's a will there's a way! When does giving it another half turn ever fail? No truly.

    The people out your way can now breathe a collective sigh of relief that the threat of an errant EM0480 unexpectedly raining from the sky, is now over.

  41. #91
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post

    So, with nothing under the bottom burr, I put a bit of effort into the tightening and there was a sudden 'click' effect and all at once I got about another half turn out of the nut.

    I haven't taken it apart yet but I had noticed there was a lip on the little stud sticking up below the bottom burr - you can see it in the right hand pic below - the little silver stud has a clear lip on it. I think I just forced the base of the burr to either break it off or force it back into place and the burr dropped down that extra bit. Now I will undo it to make sure I don't have a little piece of metal bouncing around in there...
    G'day Journeyman,

    been following this thread with some interest.

    Pleased to hear you got a positive result.

    That little stud is the locating stud for the bottom burr, it's designed to stop the shaft spinning inside the burr and not grinding, the bottom burr MUST seat all the way home on this stud.
    On examining your photo's in post #20 I noticed the odd shape washer/shim (surely not original) if this was put on incorrectly it would not allow the burr to seat and the stud would not locate, if the stud is not engaged/fully seated in the bottom burr the motor shaft would simply not spin the burr or cause it to spin slowly producing the odd results you were getting.
    I guess what I'm saying is someone has been fiddling with the grinder without fully understanding what they were on about.
    Does this make any sense to you?
    It will be interesting to see if you have any problem removing the bottom burr, I suspect that oddball washer has not allowed the burr to engage fully with the stud and has worn a ridge on it, as you say when you tightened the nut a bit more the pressure probably overcame the ridge and the burr seated as it was meant to.
    Last edited by Yelta; 9th March 2013 at 05:47 PM.

  42. #92
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    giggled like a schoolgirl...CafeLotta... And they don't have to worry abut a new definition of 'blue' sky as I abuse all and sundry Sunbeam designers, employers, engineers, salespeople, factory workers, drivers... well, you get the picture.

    @Yelta - I am fairly sure the bottom burr was spinning correctly - there was no visible difference when side by side with the 450. I think the issue was it wasn't seating far enough down because of that 'lip' on the lug. Now it does.

    The bottom burr came off OK and there are no stray bits of metal so s'all good...

    And yes, somebody been mucking with my grinder... :I had a laugh:

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Quote :- "70 posts and still no solution in sight, I suspect it's time to take it to someone who know what their doing."

    Quote :- "I disagree. As Journeyman has said - he is not intellectually challenged. But he is obviously a problem solver, and one who can be tenacious when necessary.
    Also, there are some good suggestions in the last few posts that have to be worth trying before giving up on it. Hang in there Journeyman. You could be just one short step away from the solution."

    Great job Journeyman - As they say in the classics - - " I rest my case ! "

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by leograyson View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Quote :- "70 posts and still no solution in sight, I suspect it's time to take it to someone who know what their doing."

    Quote :- "I disagree. As Journeyman has said - he is not intellectually challenged. But he is obviously a problem solver, and one who can be tenacious when necessary.
    Also, there are some good suggestions in the last few posts that have to be worth trying before giving up on it. Hang in there Journeyman. You could be just one short step away from the solution."

    Great job Journeyman - As they say in the classics - - " I rest my case ! "
    Yep, we got your message loud and clear in post 76 this thread Leo old son, no need for repetition.

  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Yep, we got your message loud and clear in post 76 this thread Leo old son, no need for repetition.
    Oh... I like the repetition... he me look like make smrt!!!

  46. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman View Post
    Oh... I like the repetition... he me look like make smrt!!!
    Well at least you got there in the end, job well done.

  47. #97
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    Just had my worst coffee from the machine - well, since I had the 4yo, plunger grind, preground craps when I was checking the machine worked...

    I followed the instructions for removing the plastic insert - was a heap of gunk under it and on the underside - cleaned the metal and tried a coffee. Nothing to do with the now-clean PF - I have moved all my gear over to a set of drawers beside the kitchen bench and stashed the EM0450 grinder and left the EM0480 out for use. And I forgot to check the grind setting, so my coffee had bugger-all crema and is lacking in depth of flavours.

    S'all good - I turned it into a latté instead and it's still better than many of the ones I have paid for in shops.

    No wonder the local pub owner was disappointed when I stopped practicing in his bar; I make good coffee and it seems most coffee servers (I hesitate to call them baristas ) don't know enough about their product to get the best out of their equipment. (first thing I did when I was trying things there was strip and clean the machine... wait... that sounds wrong... I mean I took things apart and cleaned them - the washer above the filter head had solid caked gunk holding it in and it took about 3 soaks and polishes to get the caked on milk off the steam wand)

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    ..it took about 3 soaks and polishes to get the caked on milk off the steam wand)
    I always try to check the state of the steam wand in a new coffee shop.
    If its caked in milk i avoid buying coffee, since it says a lot about the "barista's" approach to his job.

  49. #99
    Senior Member CafeLotta's Avatar
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    Jun 2012
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    Journeyman, sounds like most of the issues you've had with the used EM0480 and EM6910 were as a result of the original owner's lack of care or knowledge in using this equipment.

    When reading through CS threads where equipment is "not working correctly" or at all, I often wonder why some people didn't take the time to read their owners manual thoroughly and carry out at least the basic maintenance correctly. Often information is only sought after problems arise. It would be economically advantageous for new owners to take the time to thoroughly understand their equipment and care for it correctly rather than dump it on the market after issues arise. Worse still, the equipment is usually blamed for not living up to expectations.

    I bought a used 1-1/2yo V3 Silvia and rebadged Compak K3T which also showed signs of the original owner not having the knowledge to maintain or use them correctly, even after doing a "barista course". They managed to damage the boiler element through incorrect use and the grinder had its plastic clump breaker pushed back inside the grind chamber causing grinds to be trapped inside. Bad for them, good for me. After replacing the boiler/element and giving both a good clean and once over the total cost was $550. If only they had taken the time to understand their equipment, they would probably still have been enjoying it rather than me!

  50. #100
    Senior Member Journeyman's Avatar
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    I'm learning... :I had a laugh: I worked as a wine steward/barman for a decade or so - always keeping equipment clean and in good order is something learned early or you don't have very good times in hospitality. I turned up to the pub where the owner had kindly let me come to have a free practice and poured a shot - tasted pretty bad. He wanted me to make him a flat white but I told him it would have to wait 'cos I wasn't going to serve it like that - he was a little taken aback and told me later he almost told me to go. And then, even though I was there for my practice, he gave me some cash at the end of the session - and every session after that - I knew I must be doing something right.

    I gave it up when he started moving me towards getting back into bar work... Didn't have a lot of interest in that.

    I'm presuming a V3 Silvia and a K3T, even rebadged, would be a hell of a lot more than $550? I looked up prices for mine and the cheapest prices I could find was $540 for the EM6910 and about $145 for the EM0480 - I never found an EM0450 price but EM0440's were about $90. I got somewhere around $750+ worth of equipment, now in good nick, for $350.

    Like you say, I am convinced the previous owner simply didn't take care of it and some heavy handed idiot with a brute-force approach was responsible for my issues with the 480.

    I guess it helps to have a mindset of 'this SHOULD be working, why isn't it?' and being prepared to look into things. Plus I learned a long time back there is an immense satisfaction in plugging away at a problem until you find the answer - nothing quite like that feeling of fixing it after a long struggle. I think many give up at the frustration level and don't realise the more frustration there is in the process, the greater the accomplishment at the end.

    It doesn't help that these days school is about authority and being able to look up answers rather than having the techniques to work stuff out.
    rawill and CafeLotta like this.

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