Otherwise it's the same with the vertical boiler at the back. Mine has had some mods and upgrades - wrapped boiler, OPV set to 10bar, braided hoses fitted to replace the nylon/Teflon ones, dampening foam in appropriate places and an upgraded steam wand.
[QUOTE=LeroyC;589589]I bought this to do up-
Way to go, good luck with the do up.
Here, Here! i think asking what the best machine is for the coin will produce similar results to going to bathurst and asking what is better holden or ford.......which would be neither I had a laugh
It really comes down to personal preference, i love my machine but the aussie dollar is poor against the other currencies and you will have an impossible time finding one so i wouldn't recommend it, but im biased because i wanted a similar machine with no pump and with minimal parts so it wouldnt (touch wood) break. I looked at both the silvia and really like the look of the lelits, but it went against what i wanted. Not a fan of sunbeam or breville, but i have heard some pretty good things from people who do have them.
i did make the mistake of rushing out and buying a grinder. Although the breville smart grinder was on special and i got it cheaper again because i got a kenwood chef as well, i really wish i spent the extra couple of hundred and got a better compact or other. Dont get me wrong, it does the job, just spend most my time with how much better it could be
good luck with what ever choice you make, i'm sure you will love the ride and investment.
$1200 was the same price point I had when I purchased my machine. After loads of research I picked up a Nuova Simonelli Oscar 2. At this price point I would have to say the NS Oscar 2 is the best machine on the market right now.
And guess what, the coffee really does taste the same from the Breville as from the DeLonghi!!! As I commented elsewhere, my take is the ultimate taste depends on the original bean and how well is is ground, not on the coffee maker. Yes, we all get kudos from owning a finely engineered and well presented unit but, not trying to offend people here (although will probably succeed), more dollars spent on a coffee maker does NOT, IMHO, ensure a better tasting result. There might be features which make the coffee making ritual more subjectively pleasurable, but the final result, the coffee, will be the same.
As I started off saying, some of us, including me, have purchased coffee makers with greater capacity than we really need or use. The double boiler Breville BAS 900 here would be great for a large family or small office where, left on all day, it would supply coffee on demand. A small Delonghi EC680 would be hopeless in that situation because of its limited capacity BUT for my wife and I, who usually only have a cup in the morning and only rarely some other time during the day, the Breville is overkill but the Delonghi suits us perfectly. It is quick to heat up and the smaller plastic (I hear some someone "yuk" at that) water container is easy to remove and refill.
So yes, horses for courses, and those who consume coffee throughout the day can justify a bigger machine. But, in my opinion, that is the only reason to buy one.
I looked at selling our Breville, now virtually reconditioned, but the price of used coffee makers is so low I'm not sure I'll go ahead. In the meantime I'll use up all the tank of water in the Breville but then plan to retire it and revert back to the much smaller (less bench space) DeLonghi. For our purposes that DeLonghi is the "best machine under $1200".
Last edited by Tassie_Devil; 9th October 2016 at 01:25 PM. Reason: typo corrected
Mind you coffee equipment although it can run to 5k for a complete and expensive setup, it is a far cry from what people spend on motor vehicles, for instance where 5k is peanuts.
Room in the kitchen is a consideration and some people just don't have the room so a very small and quite cheap grinder and maker is all they want and need.
Others like me don't mind spending and getting a plumbed in work of art that will last for decades and can be used to serve coffee for dinner parties if needed. Good equipment has good resale so for the most part you could get 70% of the what you paid in 5 years time. If you keep it for 20 or 30 years and live that long so much the better.
I paid $800 for a 9 year old Bezzera BZ40P 11 years ago and sold it for $500 last week.
Coffee equipment second hand is a great buy as the technology is simple and if you buy a quality machine, you can use it for years and sell it for what you paid for it. In the meantime you get a lovely machine.
Similarly, many are happy with a car that gets them reliably from A to B where others (and I'm guilty here too) take pride in a well made vehicle that is quiet, handles well and a pleasure to drive.
Last edited by Tassie_Devil; 9th October 2016 at 04:30 PM.
So, bottom line on our header "best machine under $1200" means different things to different people and like so many things in life "best" for one is not necessarily best for others. Viva la difference. It would be a dull world if we all liked the same things and had the same values.
This is the thing, one machine is designed to last while the other is designed to be thrown away. Proof being you ended up buying two units. I'd rather pay a bit more and buy once than go for the cheaper option and end up having to buy a replacement. In the long run, you'll end up spending more on multiple 'cheap' appliances.
This morning I replaced the filter as yesterday coffee was spilling everywhere out of the Breville. Sadly, no better this morning so the Breville goes down to the basement. The $300 repair was a waste of money,
So, we will see how long the "disposable" Delonghi lasts. If it has a short life I'll come back here for advice. At $1500 the BES900 has turned out to be a dud so I will not be buying Breville again. A pity, as at the time of its release it was getting high praise here.
Amen to that.as far as hobbies go $5k isn't too bad...
The other thing to factor in is the hassle of getting something repaired. I don't know about you, but if I experienced a failure like Mr Tassie D. did, and waited 6 months for a repair, I wouldn't be very impressed.
$1200 is about street price for a perfect Giotto premium or a Premium Plus in very good condition post service which you could probably keep for a few years and then sell for $1k... Given reputation and demand for them, that's where I'd be spending mine....
It sounds like you've fallen into the trap of relying on the 'authorised service agent' to carry out the work on your Breville. These places are invariably fairly average when it comes to service and tend to be appliance repair shops rather than coffee machine specialists. No service centre that gives a crap would hold a customer's machine for 6 months, that's disgraceful. While I'm glad you've found a machine that meets your requirements in the Delonghi, I think it'd be a shame to consign the Breville to the basement as it does do a few things better than the Delonghi. If you don't have a local service agent that can actually do what needs to be done I'd suggest you consider sending the BES900 interstate to someone that can sort it. CS member 'noidle22' would be able to help I'm sure as he's fixed plenty of these machines over the years. If he can't do it himself he might be able to recommend someone that can. In the grand scheme of things a bit of money spent now on shipping and repair could give you a machine that's actually worth something rather than a pretty looking dust collector in the basement.
I'm interested to know what filter you replaced when 'coffee was spilling out everywhere' yesterday?? To me it sounds like the group seal needs replacing rather than a filter. One of the common issues the BES900 suffered from was a poor fitting portafilter. This was fixed by replacing and/or modifying the group collar from memory and if this hasn't been done on your machine it might be all it needs to get working well again. Hope this is all of some help.
As someone also currently looking to upgrade around the same price-point as I have a slowly failing EM7000, the expenditure for me is mainly to (hopefully) invest in longevity. I'd be happy to continue using my current setup however I'm now out of Sunbeam's 2-year warranty period and this thing just isn't reliable - obviously not built to last. As an engineer I respect innovation and things with nice bells & whistles, however the bottom-line is also very important and a simple, reliable machine that will last and last has now become my main criteria following the "cheaper option" experience.
I think the proper machines are dead simple with few parts but well made and last for years and that is what you should aim for. As a bonus you will get your money back rather than throwing it in a pit. You may well even have a nice machine that looks great in your kitchen.
Definately look on the coffee hardware sale section. High quality machines will last a really long time. I have bought 2 machines from here and they have been great. I would go for a heat exchange machine and these can often be found for the money you are looking to spend and likely afford a good grinder too. I bought a bezzera bz99 and a compak k3 for 1100 and the grinder was brand new. Happy shopping
Not sure if this thread is still going but I thought it might be better to ask here than start a new one as its related.
I am after a new espresso machine under $1200. I have the Baratza sette 270W grinder that arrived yesterday and am currently using the Saeco Via Venezia machine, but the more im learning and reading the more I'm realizing that needs an upgrade too. I primarily will make 1 milk based drink per day (maybe 2 since they will taste better, but wife doesn't drink coffee which makes funding this harder) although occasionally this 1-2 cups increases due to guests but normally its just me. Might get into espresso shots though since quality will improve but who knows. I hope to keep this new machine for 10-15 years so I want it to be good enough to not NEED to be upgraded. I consider myself a novice. the more I learn the more I realise there is to learn. Im interested in learning though but still a novice at this stage.
Im currently looking seriously at the Lelit PL41TEMD ($989) which I like because of the PID (although I understand that temp surfing isnt the end of the world but thats primarily why I think I have discounted the Rancilio Silvia 2018 M V5). I was also looking at the Breville BES920 Dual Boiler Coffee Machine. This machine is very cheap now ($714) and is dual boiler and you can set brew time etc. I dont like the idea of it though compared to an Italian espresso brand. I think im swayed by the romance of it all but I cant deny the features and price (understand might not last as long and wont have the same resale but resale isnt really a big factor). The ECM Manufacture Casa V is interesting but advice from the store is that the Lelit is maybe better for $200 less.
I guess my question is subjective to a large extent but whats the "best" option for me (given above requirements?). Any retailers I should look at (Ideally Melb but interstate ok), any other brands or models? Would dual boiler be much better? Should I try and extend my budget to $1500? Lelit PL60 is dual boiler ($1699 or $1399 for new but dented). Lelit Victoria ($1469) also looks good and has timer for brewing which could save need for a scale or timer. The QUICK MILL SILVANO EVO ($1450) is also interesting with a shot timer built into the PID.
The lelit PL41TEMD (ideal price & probably front runner) seems to have a 250ml boiler and 57.5 tamper size rather than the 58mm I believe is standard. are these issues? I dont expect to get multiple tampers or spend $400 on one either. I think id just get the $75 lelit tamper and stick with it.
anyway thanks for reading (if i haven't rambled too much) and thanks for any advice or additional info to consider. cheers
Last edited by crazyjoe; 26th January 2018 at 12:49 PM.
I think you can discount the dual boiler. With those you hope it breaks in 22 months and then get a new one under warranty. Itís not worth it.
For long term others will know better in that price bracket but I would stretch for the dual boiler lelit as a milk drinker and entertaining.
Price is temporary but choice is forever.
Couldnít agree more. I was taught what one can you afford and go one level up from there. So if you think you can stretch to whatever go one level up.
The other thing is what does the next level offer. If you were still in heat exchangers then Iíd say save but you get a big feature extra.
Use the quote form and see what the sponsors can offer here.
The BES920 is great buying at $700ish. Will it last 10yrs? If you look after it thereís a good chance it will. Will it last 15? Thatís more unlikely. Donít count it out altogether, but realise that it is slightly lighter when it comes to build quality than the Lelit and it will give you problems if you donít treat it with due care.
I think any of the Lelits represent very good value. From a value stand point Iíd put them above any of the other ones youíve mentioned. Do you need to spend $1500 to get the PL60? No, you donít, but maybe you should. What Iíve learnt through my Ďhome baristaí journey is that spending more and getting the best machine you can afford will definitely reduce the likelihood that youíll want to upgrade soon. However it wonít eliminate it altogether, so if the entry level Lelit will work for you (and potentially make things a bit easier on the home front around the $$s spent) then it might be the way to go. It may mean you want to upgrade in a few years, but at least a Lelit will hold a reasonable amount of value, especially if youíve looked after it properly. A Breville wonít do as well in this way.
So buying a machine that COULD last 15yrs is a good plan. Realising that you probably wonít keep it that long canít hurt either. I had a laugh.
I guess I dont see the Lelit PL41TEMD as entry level. I guess it is for proper machines, but I'd put my Saeco via venezia at entry level. Im assuming the lelit will be a bit improvement over that and a big enough improvement to warrant the cost. Not sure myself if dual boiler is needed? I have single boiler now and dont mind waiting. its time to get the milk and my cup and spoon etc.
Increasing my budget might be possible but it seems im looking at $500 (or a 1/3) more than the lelit PL41TEMD. thanks for your help!
I have the dual boiler now and I do enjoy it. I canít fault it. As joe said I bought it knowing if I wanted when it breaks Iíll upgrade. I say to most itís a great buy if you budget a few years from it but wouldnít be 10 years. That would be the exception.
The quote form is as you mentioned. Just say what your feeling. X is my budget and Iím thinking of ABC. Any advice etc. they will recommend and offer a price.
Your right though, a new E61 will be well over the budget you mention, have you contemplated second hand, some bargains come up from time to time in the for sale area of this forum, nothing wrong with a well maintained used machine.
Site sponsor Coffee-A-Roma in Melbourne still have them listed at $1499 but have been showing out-of stock since before Christmas. At this price its a really good buy if still available.
The Piccolo is a single 750ml boiler with 1400 watt element for quick boiler heat-up and recovery. Its uses the same E61 group-head as all the Vibiemme domestic machines (Junior HX, Super and double boiler). A micro-switch cuts the pump if water in the reservoir falls too low. Stainless Steel body and frame and commercial quality components all make for good durability. Brew pressure gauge is installed. Included are 2 portafilters (use one for brewing and one for daily backflushing with water using a blind insert.) Spares are readily available and will be for a long time to come.
Having previously used the Silvia for a few years and now a Levetta (earlier Piccolo), the Vibiemme with the E61 definetly produces more consistent and I think higher quality coffee. It uses an adjustable remote thermostat with liquid filled capillary tubing to a sensor inside a sleeve immersed inside the boiler. The temperature deviation for these types of thermostats is only 4 degrees celcius (on-off-on) and they seem to be very responsive. If you observe E61 cold start heat-up times (30-40 mins) and always brew soon after the light goes out, brew temp will be consistent. I tend to run water through the group when the heating lamp initially goes out and then repeat 2 or 3 times after which let it stabilise for 5-10 mins. Seems to speed things up for me. As with most decent machines the OPV is adjustable to achieve the desired 9 bar pressure at the portafilter. The one down side is unlike the HX machines you need to wait a short to heat-up to steam like any single boiler but I find mine to be quick compared to the Silvia.
The Piccolo doesn't have an electronic black box to go wrong like higher end E61 HX machines. Compared to the Lelit PL41TEMD, any E61 will however require some extra maintenance such as lubrication and keeping an eye on scale build-up in the group-head, less so if filtered water is used. These are things you can learn to do yourself to save money but if you don't have the right tools, a couple extra may need to be bought.
Last edited by CafeLotta; 26th January 2018 at 04:14 PM.
Have a look at a Nuova Simonelli Oscar 2. Its under $1500, timed shot (not volumetric, timed) HX so can steam and pull shotat same time, loads of steam and 15-20 minute heat up time but if that’s an issue put it on a timer and issue solved. Mines on a timer for 6:30am so ready at 7am and then on and off a minute later at 6pm so if boiler needs to fill it does it when house is noisey not super quite.
Drip tray, top and rear are plastic and the look isn’t for everyone.
if can get an OPV installed when buying i’d say do it as made my Oscar 2 more consistent (or is that hid my flaws a bit!)
Thanks Yelta. I had considered 2nd hand but decided against it as I dont know enough to ensure i get a good one although Id consider 2nd hand from a shop with a warranty. My grinder for eg was brand new, never used but had some scratches from shipping so was discounted.
The start up time is pretty long at 30 - 40 min though. The extra maintenance is something to consider as lubrication, scale and standard backflushing seem a bit. Im scared that this kind of machine might require too much prior knowledge or experience for me? Might also be in instruction manual or maybe the store is helpful to explain it all (although they might not want home maintenance?).
Is this machine more suited for espresso drinkers, not latte or flat white drinkers?
Only issue is IF i can increase my budget to $1500, what else is now out there to consider too?
Not sure how an HX compares with an E61 vs standard boiler on the lelit? I like how it does steam and brew at the same time though.
No PID. The adjustable thermostat is very sensitive and when set to the correct temperature together with the 750ml boiler and E61 grouphead give very good temperature stability. This gives the Piccolo its own niche without spending the extra for a HX machine to get the same brewing performance.
As mentioned earlier, steaming is a case of hitting the steam switch after brewing and waiting a very short time for it to come up to steam temp. Similar procedure to the Silvia except more powerful steam. Not a big issue for 2 cups at a time. If you regularly made 4 or more then a HX machine would be more suited but you pay for the conveniance of instant steam both in complexity of the machine and price to purchase and service.
We supply the Oscar II and can fit the OPV pre purchase for you.
What many people do is to program the single shot for 60 seconds and then use it as manual stop/start button (if you want a manual shot) and program the second double shot button as a programmed dose. That way you get a manual and programed option.
An HX machine refers to how the heat/boiler/steam is configured. E61 refers to the type of group head manufactured by Faema. An E61 machine can have a single boiler, HX or dual boiler configuration.
As well as the Oscar II we have the new CIME 0011 which is an HX E61 machine compact. Exceptionally well priced https://www.casaespresso.com.au/cime-011.html
We have a few CS members who have purchase the CIME
Feel free to call me if needed.
Don't forget to check out La Pavoni!
Great fun & you learn a lot.
Thanks for everyone's advice and help. Just thought Id update the thread for any future people who have the same needs by letting you know I ended up with the CIME 011. HX machine with E61 grouphead. Very nice looking machine and works well. Good price and for me I think it was better than a single boiler to give me instant milk frothing abilities. I am certainly now making the best coffees i have ever made at home and better than many cafes. Paired with the Baratza sette 270W its a good combo for my needs and budget and I highly recommend it. cheers again.
Your coffee is only going to get better as you become more accustomed to the machine and weight settings on your grinder.
Thanks again for your business
Last edited by Casa Espresso; 12th February 2018 at 09:05 PM.