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Thread: Rocket Appartamento/Bezzera BZ10/Bezzera Magica

  1. #1
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    Rocket Appartamento/Bezzera BZ10/Bezzera Magica

    Any recommendation if price are really close for the 3?
    I am open for E61 grouphead or Bezzera grouphead.
    I'm a latte and occasional espresso drinker. I prefer lightly city roast beans with more flavor of the beans itself.
    I am using Eureka Mignon grinder.
    I have upgraded from Krups XP4020 to Gaggia Classic and find the body of my coffee to be much better.

    Wonder which one is the best machine for me in terms of quality of the product/quality of the espresso/easiness to maintain and fix.

    Thank you
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  2. #2
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    Hi there.
    Of those 3 I would say Rocket Appartmento any day of the week. Another to consider is the Lelit Mara.
    Good hunting Paul
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    Differences in flavor will be very subtle If you compare the BZ group to the E61. Since you tend towards lighter roasts the preinfusion feature of the E61 might give it a slight edge over the BZ10. OTOH the BZ warms up faster and is far more maintenance friendly IMO. Were I in your situation now I might lean towards the Appartemento as well, but you won't be disapointed with either.

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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    Hi there.
    Of those 3 I would say Rocket Appartmento any day of the week. Another to consider is the Lelit Mara.
    Good hunting Paul
    Paul, mind telling me what's the negatives of Bezzera?
    It's related to design or the quality of the espresso?

    Or just Appartmento is just too good.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 850t View Post
    Paul, mind telling me what's the negatives of Bezzera?
    It's related to design or the quality of the espresso?

    Or just Appartmento is just too good.
    You won't find many unhappy Bezzera owners.
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  6. #6
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    Agree with Yelta...

    All are great machines and I would seriously doubt that you could tell the difference between the quality of coffee produced by any of them.
    Build quality for all of them is equally very high too.

    You really need to visit a Specialist Retailer such as one of our Site Sponsors, where you can get a demo of all three. May have to visit more than one premises to do that, but that's half the fun anyway...

    Mal.
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  7. #7
    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 850t View Post
    Any recommendation if price are really close for the 3?
    I am open for E61 grouphead or Bezzera grouphead.
    I'm a latte and occasional espresso drinker. I prefer lightly city roast beans with more flavor of the beans itself.
    I am using Eureka Mignon grinder.
    I have upgraded from Krups XP4020 to Gaggia Classic and find the body of my coffee to be much better.

    Wonder which one is the best machine for me in terms of quality of the product/quality of the espresso/easiness to maintain and fix.

    Thank you
    Both Rocket and Bezzera are at the top end of quality and finish.

    The BZ10 has a faster heat up time with the inbuilt cartridge heaters in the group whilst the Appartmento has the attraction of the original E61 group head.

    The PID option on the BZ10 takes it up a level and is worth considering.

    Cheers

    Antony
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casa Espresso View Post
    Both Rocket and Bezzera are at the top end of quality and finish.

    The BZ10 has a faster heat up time with the inbuilt cartridge heaters in the group whilst the Appartmento has the attraction of the original E61 group head.

    The PID option on the BZ10 takes it up a level and is worth considering.

    Cheers

    Antony
    BZ10 has PID option? Or self mod?

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    No, the BZ07, which is otherwise technically the same as the BZ10, comes with a PID and volumetric control option. Plus its hot water wand and group head are laid out differently on the front panel.

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    On a Heat Exchange machine I would not get too hung up on the PID feature. The temp on the dial is not necessarily the temp of the water that comes out of your group head. It is merely the boiler temp offset to what is expected to be the temp at the group head as a reference. You can obviously play with the setting, but there is still a small cooling flush involved to get reproducable temperatures.

  11. #11
    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by degaulle View Post
    No, the BZ07, which is otherwise technically the same as the BZ10, comes with a PID and volumetric control option. Plus its hot water wand and group head are laid out differently on the front panel.
    Hi degaulle,

    I was referring to the PID option that we fit to the BZ10. We also fit the same system to the Bezzera Strega. We develop this system with Rick aka "The Coffee Machinest".

    We fit these to new machines and offer full factory warranty and are recognised by the Bezzera distributor in Australia.

    The cartridge group head heating system on the Strega and BZ10 work extremely well with this modification. There is a separate thread under the Strega heading that discusses this

    cheers

    Antony
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  12. #12
    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by degaulle View Post
    On a Heat Exchange machine I would not get too hung up on the PID feature. The temp on the dial is not necessarily the temp of the water that comes out of your group head. It is merely the boiler temp offset to what is expected to be the temp at the group head as a reference. You can obviously play with the setting, but there is still a small cooling flush involved to get reproducable temperatures.
    Agreed. On an HX machine a PID is more of an "I want option" rather then offering a notable difference in performance or control of the group head temperature.

    However on the BZ10 (and the Bezzera Strega), Bezzera have added heating element cartridges into the group head as well as having a traditional HX heating system. This secondary heating system not only means the machine gets up to temperature faster then a standard HX machine it also allows real time and efficient temperature changes at the group head using the PID

    cheers

    Antony

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    I have no qualms with my BZ10, i've got a little write up somewhere on here.
    Bezzera BZ10 + Quamar. "Second" impressions
    There is a bit of back and forth about pressures, but i think Bezzera works nicely.

    Get an IMS screen and a good basket and you are happy, heck its not too shabby with the stock baskets

    What sold me was the footprint and the fast heat up time for my morning coffee, and the price was a little cheaper than the Rocket when I bought mine.

    As mentioned by Antony, the PID is something I might consider down the way as a nice little retrofit option - its pretty darn good without it, but its on my "nice to have list"

    Happily making brews below.

  14. #14
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    Rocket Appartamento/Bezzera BZ10/Bezzera Magica

    Hi 850t,

    Note that the Magica is sold under the Di Bartoli brand in Australia.

    What it means is that it's technically a Bezzera but it has undergone a Di Bartoli R&D, and is proudly promoted and distributed exclusively by Di Bartoli past 4 years, becoming the highest selling model of our entire range, experiencing low breakdown statistic and is making many CS members happy each morning (check matt3wh review here:
    Bezzera Magica e61 review - user experience 3 months on)

    I'm in love with it myself, and have it proudly nesting on my kitchen bench pulling 4-6 hot chocolates for my son's mates on weekends and easily making my coffee geeky friends happy on Xmas day..

    It will also offer you 50% trade in deal where you can get 50% off what you paid today for your Magica as a discount against another Bezzera if you feel like upgrading within first 5 years.

    Now, I don't say it's better than the Appartamento, but I do say it presents the best overall value for its price bracket as it's retailed for $2,750 and we offer it in a heavy discounted price to you because we can.

    The Appartamneto is an incredible machine too, albeit young, with smaller boiler, smaller tank, only one gauge, low feet (hard to clean), it has knobs taps vs lever taps in the Magica and its looks may not be everyone's cuppa.

    I'd be able to make better recommendation if you'd let me know more about you here: http://bit.ly/DBquest

    As for the BZ10, everyone knows we love Bezzeras, they are reliable, parts are available all year around, and they're easy to fix. But BZ10 employing a proprietary designed Bezzera head wouldn't be my first choice if I had the other 2 models as an option. Having all 3 machines side by side on our bench and making coffee from it, gives us the insight into what may behave better with coffee and despite good built / small footprint / reliability / good finish and the Bezzera name, this specific head design is finicky, challenges consistency as its fairly shallow on clearance (think Silvia head), and the extra booster that allows fast heating will also result in high temp fluctuation for brewing. Not something a non e61 user can gauge if they haven't had the experience to draw the comparison.

    So I'll go E61 any day of the year. Welcome to read more about an E61 in our buyer's guide here http://bit.ly/DBbuyersguide

    Hope it helps,
    Ofra
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casa Espresso View Post
    Hi degaulle,

    I was referring to the PID option that we fit to the BZ10. We also fit the same system to the Bezzera Strega. We develop this system with Rick aka "The Coffee Machinest".

    We fit these to new machines and offer full factory warranty and are recognised by the Bezzera distributor in Australia.

    The cartridge group head heating system on the Strega and BZ10 work extremely well with this modification. There is a separate thread under the Strega heading that discusses this

    cheers

    Antony
    Hi Anthony,
    I didn't realise this was a mod commercially available. If the PID is linked to the group head heater, that sounds like an interesting mod.

    I never did temperature readings on my BZ10 machine, but always assumed that the stock thermostat that controls the GH is set at or just below 90 degr. C for when the machine is idle. If you run a flush prior to pulling a shot, the GH is stabilized at the temp you want when you run the extraction.

    I did a brief search on "Strega PID mod", but not narrowed down enough probably. What I am wondering about is: If you PID the GH heater so it holds a steady 93 degr C while the machine is idle, won't the brew temperature overshoot when you draw a flush or run the extraction right away, because the Heat Exchanger still holds superheated water? Just curious.

    Cheers
    Bert

  16. #16
    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by degaulle View Post
    Hi Anthony,
    I didn't realise this was a mod commercially available. If the PID is linked to the group head heater, that sounds like an interesting mod.

    I never did temperature readings on my BZ10 machine, but always assumed that the stock thermostat that controls the GH is set at or just below 90 degr. C for when the machine is idle. If you run a flush prior to pulling a shot, the GH is stabilized at the temp you want when you run the extraction.

    I did a brief search on "Strega PID mod", but not narrowed down enough probably. What I am wondering about is: If you PID the GH heater so it holds a steady 93 degr C while the machine is idle, won't the brew temperature overshoot when you draw a flush or run the extraction right away, because the Heat Exchanger still holds superheated water? Just curious.

    Cheers
    Bert
    Hi Bert,

    Here is the link to the Strega mod and corresponding graphs. Note that the HX thermostat has been wound back slightly.

    The same system is used on the BZ10.

    Hopefully this explains things a bit better

    cheers

    Antony

    Domesticated Witch - Adding PID control to the Bezzera Strega

  17. #17
    Senior Member matth3wh's Avatar
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    Rocket Appartamento/Bezzera BZ10/Bezzera Magica

    Where are you based 850t?

    Are you able to get along to a site sponsor and check out the machines in person ?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casa Espresso View Post
    Hi Bert,

    Here is the link to the Strega mod and corresponding graphs. Note that the HX thermostat has been wound back slightly.

    The same system is used on the BZ10.

    Hopefully this explains things a bit better

    cheers

    Antony

    Domesticated Witch - Adding PID control to the Bezzera Strega
    Thanks Anthony.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casa Espresso View Post

    We fit these to new machines and offer full factory warranty and are recognised by the Bezzera distributor in Australia.

    Antony
    Antony, as OP in HK, presume warranty won't be offered on any mods?

  20. #20
    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Di_Bartoli View Post
    Antony, as OP in HK, presume warranty won't be offered on any mods?
    Hi Offra,

    I cant see where there is a mention the OP is in HK. Did I miss part of the thread?

    However if they are in HK the best advice, whatever machine they buy, is to purchase from a local reseller for ongoing support, service advice and parts.

    Cheers

    Antony

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    Rocket Appartamento/Bezzera BZ10/Bezzera Magica

    Sorry guys, I am located in Hong Kong and I am looking for advice as this two brands are the only ones that have formal authorised dealer in HK and there's nothing for you to try out. You can just order through them. The coffee group is just not as flourish as you guys in Australia. You guys are so lucky to have such a knowledgeable group. Thank you
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  22. #22
    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 850t View Post
    Sorry guys, I am located in Hong Kong and I am looking for advice as this two brands are the only ones that have formal authorised dealer in HK and there's nothing for you to try out. You can just order through them. The coffee group is just not as flourish as you guys in Australia. You guys are so lucky to have such a knowledgeable group. Thank you
    The reality is both brands are well established and produce quality machines and both are going to produce great coffee with the right training.

    If I was you I would purchase from the importer you are feel most comfortable with. In the long run it is the seller that is going to give you best advice, support and back up.

    They are the ones that are going to help you get the best out of either machine.

    Cheers

    Antony

  23. #23
    Site Sponsor K_Bean_Coffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casa Espresso View Post
    If I was you I would purchase from the importer you are feel most comfortable with. In the long run it is the seller that is going to give you best advice, support and back up.
    They are the ones that are going to help you get the best out of either machine.
    Very true Antony. OP, don't underestimate the importance of a relationship with the retailer and also, of after sales support.
    I was originally puzzled by the OP's short list, but having only 2 brands available explains it.
    If it was my money and I had those 3 to choose from I would go with the Appartmento. That's me though, and we're all different so do your own research. Of course, if the short list increased to include other brands available in Australia I would have another choice.
    Please post when you buy a machine and keep interesting with the Snobs community. Post pics of your shiny new machine in Hong Kong.
    Cheers from down under, Paul
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    Damn this thread. I thought I was set on the Rocket Appartamento and a Fausto. Now I'm heavily considering the Bezzera Magica, and maybe seeing how my rocky does with it.
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  25. #25
    Site Sponsor K_Bean_Coffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mentasm View Post
    Damn this thread. I thought I was set on the Rocket Appartamento and a Fausto. Now I'm heavily considering the Bezzera Magica, and maybe seeing how my rocky does with it.
    ....you seem to be at the point where you need to see the machines. Reading more threads doesn't always help - as you know

  26. #26
    Site Sponsor Di_Bartoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    ....you seem to be at the point where you need to see the machines. Reading more threads doesn't always help - as you know
    Yep. And calling the experts who can provide comprehensive non brand biased advise that's tailored to your culture. Sometimes that's more than enough to help you go over the line.

  27. #27
    Site Sponsor K_Bean_Coffee's Avatar
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    Hi Mantasm,
    Here are 4 fool-proof steps to finding your machine and grinder (thanks Mal for the inspiration)
    Step 1.
    Take a look at a sponsor's buyer's guide, or 2. Here's mine: www.kbean.com.au/buyers-guide
    This will ensure you have a basic understanding machines and grinders.
    Step 2.
    Pick 1 or 2 sponsors to contact (email or phone). This will usually cut through the clutter and help you get to a short list.
    Step 3.
    If possible, visit 1 or 2 site sponsors to experience machines and grinders on your short list. While they all look great online, it's really getting up close an personal that will help you to decide.
    Step 4.
    If you feel the need, seek opinions from members know the machines on your short list. Most members will jump head over heals to help. If you don't want to get into heated threads, contact owners my PM.
    Good hunting. Paul
    0416 528 339

  28. #28
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    Rocket Appartamento/Bezzera BZ10/Bezzera Magica

    Quote Originally Posted by mentasm View Post
    Damn this thread. I thought I was set on the Rocket Appartamento and a Fausto. Now I'm heavily considering the Bezzera Magica, and maybe seeing how my rocky does with it.
    Hi mentasm,

    Apologies for the long post in advanced. Might be helpful for others in the same boat:

    The Bezzera Magica is sold in Australia as the Di Bartoli Magica and is exclusively distributed by Di Bartoli. Any reviews you'd either need to google it as Di Bartoli Magica or check directly our web site.

    As for the Rocky, I'm at the opinion that there are no ultimate truths in coffee gear choosing, only what works for you. Most often than non, working out what works for you isn't straight forward and is best supported by a Pro who asks you the right questions for you to get some answers.

    What do I mean? Here's an example.

    When I read people's opinion that upgrading the Rocky wouldn't change results in the cup, I ask, to whom it wouldn't make a difference? To the one who drinks milky coffees, cares more about consistency than refinement, prioritizes easiness to complexity, is not in a rush while making coffee and happy to adjust constantly his routine? Then I'd agree (to a certain point).

    Or are you a coffee aficionado who drinks sometimes blacks, makes a distinction between thin to full bodied coffee, recognizes fruity coffee from nuts and chocolate and always seeks balance and complexity? Maybe you just want to get the same flavors your barista achieved with the same beans or you're experimental, curious and seek constant improvement of your routine as well as educating your palate? Maybe you will roast one day at home, maybe you've got this one friend you wish to impress and he only drinks espresso. Then I wouldn't agree.

    Why?

    Because if you compare it to other doserless grinders around the $8k-$10k mark, the Rocky is:

    1. Slow, and because of that it clumps up more than others, which if not dealt with, can easily lead to uneven extraction and anything from lack of balance to 'dirty' coffee. Both visually and tactile wise you will get an inferior coffee to what its potential is. But is it inferior to YOU? Can you taste the difference with milk? Maybe not. And can you tackle inconsistency in particles size? Yes you can to some degree and with training or the right advice.

    2. A stepped Grinder with larger steps than other similar grinders in its range (ECA KA or Macap M2 for example). What does that mean? It means that it's easy to adjust as numbers provides clarity and repetition. BUT, if you aim at 25ml in 30sec or at that perception of what a good espresso is for you from the specific bean in the hopper, you may find that on 10 it goes quite fast, crema is pale in colour, body is a bit thin and it has no aftertaste. Setting it to 9 you find that it's too slow, quite dark, it's oily and the coffee tastes a bit bitter. What do you do? Adding milk solves the problem to many. But if you insist improving quality there is not much you can do with the grinder and you'd need to start looking at yourself which is always the hard part. Do I tamp harder? Put more coffee? Collapse half way? Is it my distribution? With little training and no patience deducting logical conclusions and being able to systematically apply incremental consistent adjustments to your routine, you end up being frustrated. Rings a bell?

    3. A manual Grinder. If you don't use scale to weigh your grind (and few home users do), you end up having your eye judging dose level which will not support dose consistency, therefore will be open to variations and possible frustration. Adding milk might help.. nothing that a good digital dosing Grinder cannot fix.

    4. Requires 2 hands operation. Might look like an insignificant detail but those who upgrade tend to make the comment of not realizing how much more time they've saved juggling the grinder's operation with getting cups ready or purging, and how they finally get to spend more time with their guests than making coffee.
    No, it doesn't make much difference in the cup but it surely makes a difference to the number 1 reason many bother with quality coffee at home and that's to share it with those we love.

    And there's more..

    Point is mentasm, use this wealth of knowledge which is a result of years working, training and collecting feedback from thousands of home baristas combined with our own intimate knowledge of coffee as a specialty roaster.

    The truth for YOU and anyone else will always lie in the cross road between your culture and the very tiny details of the behavior of each appliance (not its specs). And you're not expected to figure it all out. You've got us and other sponsors to do that for you. We don't tell you a name of brand or model, we guide you to realize it yourself.

    We do that every day, all day. Everyone is different, so each 'truth' is different. Allow us to help you finding your own truth, by phone, email, live chat, social media or in person.
    And with the tool developed just for that:
    http://bit.ly/DBquest

    Ofra
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    I've already had a few long chats with a few sponsors, Ofra made some good points about advantages of the Magica over the Appartamento which got me re-assessing things.

    My Rocky is the doser model so the clumping is dealt with somewhat. I think my dosing technique is a bit different from others, but was taught to me on a barista course where I was able to take my machine and grinder in. I seem to get very consistent results when I pay attention to what I am doing. The wife and I drink espresso in the morning and my results are often on par with my fave cafe in the city using the same beans on a Kees Van der Westen Spirit.

    I do kinda like the idea of being able to dial in my dose and not have to think about it as much every coffee. I also do take your point that the Rocky is slow. It is.

    I guess I'll have to call up again and talk through magica v appartamento when Im ready to buy. The grinder will probably get done at some point. I guess there is no reason I have to do both at once. May as well see how the rocky holds up while I save further and upgrade when it feels right
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  30. #30
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    Rocket Appartamento/Bezzera BZ10/Bezzera Magica

    Quote Originally Posted by mentasm View Post
    I've already had a few long chats with a few sponsors
    Have I had the pleasure, mentasm?

    Quote Originally Posted by mentasm View Post
    My Rocky is the doser model
    That ofcourse changes things. The Doser behaves better with clumping but dose level consistency is certainly challenged as swiping rate varies subject to bean (SO vs Blend), roast level, humidity, age etc. Glad you feel you tamed the beast and that you're not bothered by constant need for chambers cleaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by mentasm View Post
    my dosing technique is a bit different from others
    Is there a one true way of dosing? We'd love having you in for some free training with your new machine if in Sydney (or virtual if interstate). We work with you to cement a routine that is right BOTH for you and the results in the cup.

    I didn't mention in my last post adjustment mechanism. If you do end up upgrading to a stepless, doserless and digital Grinder, you'd enjoy not only dose consistency and speed but perhaps more importantly, the ability to achieve smaller incremental changes in your particle size. That WILL impact your cup. And as you drink Espresso's, you will find with time it gives you better control over speed of pour, color, thickness of crema, balance, clarity, complexity and aftertaste.

    Quote Originally Posted by mentasm View Post
    guess there is no reason I have to do both at once
    Budget? Most sponsors offer combo deals with major savings on a grinder if purchased with a machine.

    It'll be a pleasure chatting when you're ready, mentasm.

    Cheers, Ofra

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    Yes, I believe we have talked on phone and via email/sms a few times. I had you take some pictures for me before christmas.
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  32. #32
    Site Sponsor Di_Bartoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mentasm View Post
    Yes, I believe we have talked on phone and via email/sms a few times. I had you take some pictures for me before christmas.
    Hope you found it helpful
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