Last edited by Javaphile; 11th February 2017 at 08:22 PM. Reason: Removed Insult(s)
The only time you should ever use a pressurised basket is if:
1) You only have access to preground coffee
2) The coffee beans you are using are older than around 2 months or so
3) Your grinder is unable to grind the beans fine enough (may be due to item 2, beans being too old)
The term "fake crema" is used because the crema produced by a pressurised basket is not the same type of crema produced when extracting espresso with a single wall basket. The coffee is forced through one tiny hole in the base of the basket, effectively frothing the coffee up due to the force at which it is pushed through this hole. This gives a "crema" effect.
True crema is created from a variety of factors; pressure, coffee bean quality and temperature coming together during the espresso extraction. I don't know the exact science behind why it happens but it's a much different process than what the pressurised basket is doing.
If you do need a pressurised basket to tide you over until you can get a decent grinder, the pressurised baskets from the Breville Dual Boiler and Sunbeam twin thermoblock machines will both fit the Classic portafilter.
Regarding a grinder, one grinder that I never seem to see mentioned is the Bezzera BB005. I have supplied several of these to my customers and have used one in the past. It is a 48mm conical burr, doserless grinder and can be purchased new for around $450 which puts is in the same, or slightly below, the price bracket of most other grinders that are usually recommended.
It also has stepless grind adjustment which is nice.
The only limitation I think is finding a retailer as there doesn't seem to be too many of them around but I think site sponsor Di Bartoli can get them.
I suspect someone is going for a holiday.......
Wow. Thread re-name to Frustration with CS account delete?
He should at least be made to correct the spelling of the most offensive term
Chill Winston and just ask questions and they will be answered. Hopefully our American friend will still help you on this thread.
Last edited by Javaphile; 11th February 2017 at 08:21 PM. Reason: Removed Insult(s)
Nice conversion of local resources 2mcm.
I suggest you mellow out and reread my post. When you return from your vacation I suggest you have a look at the Site Posting Policy.
Java "Vacations 'R Us" phile
Toys! I must have new toys!!!
Didn't think you made a point. Just a couple of snide comments about pearls.but seeing as how you asked so nicely......
Sweet F all difference between the grind you would get from a Mazzer mini or a Compak K3, Rocky tiny bit lower quality. All the same burr size (rocky is only 50mm versus 58 of the other 2), motor speed similar but lots of complaints about the mini being slow. The mini is a few hundred more than the K3. IMHO it's not worth the extra money, but for the same money, circa $500 it would be good value. K3 is better looking though.
Pullman espresso had a great comparison between the mini and K3 but its no longer online. Helped me decide on the K3 over the mini approx 6 tears ago.
I wouldn't buy one because I have a K3 and if I was buying a new grinder I would get a faster and quieter one.
I pulled up the first sponsor listing for the mini, not shopping around for the best price on a grinder to win internet points I had a laugh
curiosity got the better of me K3 touch is $520 and mazzer mini is $849 at jetblack today, $330 buys a lot of beans
Last edited by trentski; 11th February 2017 at 08:27 PM. Reason: added prices
Thanks for finally posting up something useful although not from your own experience of using anything apart from K3...
But great to see that instead of criticisms you are posting reasons and alternatives.
Don't get me wrong. I want to be clear. I don't like seeing posts that take critical shots at equipment but don't elaborate on why and what alternatives there are. It serves no purpose. At best it is not informative and at worse some newbies might be wary of certain brands without good cause. It's hard to think it took so long to drag you to a post that gives an opinion that informs. People will still know it's an opinion and apparently without the benefit of using the grinders you have suggested people avoid because in your view they are too expensive for what they deliver. Anyone reading the whole thread now will at least be able to weigh your opinions.
I used a MM DOSER FOR over 8 years and only recently upgraded. The reason for the upgrade was I liked the look of the Fausto. The MM was a little messy particularly when it got humid. Other than that I would happily kept using it but I felt like a change. The MM is a great grinder and is bullet proof. It makes excellent espresso. I did get more fines in the cup than I do with the new grinder even after replacing the blades as it had done over 300kg of beans. I highly recommend the MM if it is in your price range. My old MM is staying in the family.
I was at Rottnest Island for 3 years with a little Breville Cafe Roma and a pressurized basket. It saved my life and made coffee many times better (for me) that the local coffee places (perhaps they used bark chips). (By the way it made real yogurt style steamed milk.) So a pressurized basket served me well in my deprivation!
Can i have your views on every espresso machine or grinder on the market based on your personal experience now? Without it you can never comment on another espresso machine or grinder. Just making sure you follow your own rules. Hate to see you being hypocritical.
No real need (or benefit) from further sniping/angst/anger on either side at this point.
At 4 pages now does the OP has enough to go on to improve their coffee frustrations?
I would have thought so Matt. The best thing for the OP is to speak to someone like Chris from Talk Coffee and get advice on what is available from first hand experience with the whole range of grinders at a number of price points. Chris has been a great source of help with grinders for me and friends I have put onto him. Cheers
Yep. Or any of the forum sponsors.........
I'm a bit rusty but the science behind this is that under 9bar of pressure, CO2 in the coffee becomes liquified then disperses back into gas once it returns to normal atmospheric pressure (Approx 1.013 Bars)
Once extraction under 9bars occur (espresso method) the C02 gas becomes trapped in the brew liquid and has only one way out which is up - and just like carbonated drinks and beer - you'll get a layer of foam (in this case) called 'crema' when espresso is made.
This is also why the fresher the coffee = the more C02 is present = the more crema.
Don't be fooled tho;
Crema tells you nothing about the quality of the coffee. It just shows how and when the coffee was roasted (roughly)
In the case of this thread, maybe crema isn't so important.
The question is, does it taste ok?
If so, then drink it and be merry.
Last edited by GunBarista; 13th February 2017 at 11:22 AM.
Last I recall from basic science class, CO2 will not liquefy at anything under about 5Bar. At 30 deg C, the critical point is more like 73Bar I think.
Dun think we're likely to detect any liquid CO2 in coffee extractions somehow...
Science in coffee is just too fascinating though.
For the past decade, coffee has changed so much, and it's really thanks to science for making sense of it all,
.... while at the same time telling me how wrong I've been on so many things haha
Wonder if you would give us a few thoughts on the way you feel science has improved or helped us make sense of coffee over the past decade?
Perhaps I've been asleep at the wheel, but I cant for the life of me think of any innovative changes that have occurred, I've seen hipsters touting third wave coffee, crowd funder's pleading for money to build wacky gadgets that are of little or no use to anyone, the same people tinkering with age old extraction methods, calling em new and innovative then rapidly fading into obscurity, nothing remarkable.
I still enjoy a god shot and a well made lungo, my wife, enjoys a cappa, no more or no less than we did 10 years ago, little has really changed, except perhaps in the sales sector where some retailers now seem prepared to sacrifice their first born for the sake of a sale.
Last edited by Yelta; 13th February 2017 at 12:40 PM.
In all respect, if you enjoy your coffee the way you do then by all means don't change. I have my personal preferences as well, such as running 24g baskets while the industry nowadays prefer 18g VSTs up-dosed to 20g, or 20g VST dosed exact - splitting every shot.
But lets delve into this subject to entertain your request and share my thoughts with you;
We now have purpose-built refractometers (with enough data gathered through the years of scientific research in coffee to ensure accuracy) to measure the TDS in our brew. This takes out a whole load of guesswork, and the whole 'judging by appearance' of what we used to think was a God shot.
Through the increasing amount of coffee scientists, we've now been able to explain what tamping ultimately does,
and it's not to compress coffee to create resistance per se,
but to eliminate air pockets within the puck so that water travels evenly to create - you guessed it - an even extraction.
This is also why sticking to the 30ml's in 30secs flat rule for every coffee is not ideal anymore.
(I have a single-origin right now, and using the EK43 I get a beautiful brew in just shy of 19secs. My extraction might be fast, but the EK43 gives such uniform particles that when I tamp just right to eliminate all air pockets, my extraction is so even that it only needs no more than 20 seconds to yield an exceptional brew - proven by taste first and foremost then by a refractometer)
Not to bore you, but more-so:
Farmers and producers now also have enough data and scientific research to prove that it's not so much the Terroir and region, but the technique on how the coffee is grown, picked and processed that ultimately builds up the taste profile for beans. Gone are the days of saying 'Coffee from Brazil tastes more earthy than coffee from Kenya' (Which is another form of generalizing that we do so well as coffee connoisseurs.. Which to our defense was also a fault by coffee exporters... but we won't get into that here)
Which also means that we're more focussed on the grower rather than the region/country now and that opens up more opportunity for the individual, and hopefully becomes even more ethical in a once very unethical industry.
We've now moved away from using words like 'First crack' and 'Second crack' (judging by sound) but instead we now understand that different beans have different surface areas, with varying densities which effects how gases are released from the bean under heat, and how sugars and proteins are more important to measure.
Basically, we now have scientific research-based knowledge to help guide us. Not that we never had it before, but now there's more and more hipsters involved that are actually doing PhD's on the subject for all to share and learn from, compare data against and build upon.
Does that help explain my point?
It's not about the gadgets, nor the extraction methods - or even innovation. It's about understanding.
But also, don't mind anything I just said if you're happy with your god shot. I'm not here to tell you how to live your life.
Enjoy your coffee just as it as, as I will enjoy mine just how I like it tooSaveSaveSaveSaveSaveSave
Last edited by GunBarista; 13th February 2017 at 01:36 PM. Reason: grammar
Never doubted anyone's ability to make coffee, nor was I judging anyone's taste.
I just love to observe and learn from this constantly evolving industry.
All science aside, we all love what we love.
Our tastebuds and sensory are the ultimate judge of what a good coffee is to us, so on a personal level, if it's what you like then it's what you like despite what the refractometer says.
Science just adds another dimension for us to explore. Shall we except it or not is up to the individual. Like I said before, I'm not here to tell you how to live your life
... and science doesn't as well, that's why we have religion.
Hell, I'll be the first to admit that I seriously miss American drip coffee from a suburban train station that's probably been sitting there for 2 hours, but man does it hit the spot.
... throw down some half-and-half and I'm home again.
Last edited by GunBarista; 13th February 2017 at 02:29 PM.
scientific analysis of civet cat stool has uncovered a 6th human taste - arsinine
Clearly third wave means different things to different people... personally I'm still enjoying the fact that I can get quality single origins at many "mainstream" cafes that in the past would've served up Grinders or similar... even if they can't prepare it well, at least I can buy something for home that's not roasted within an inch of its life then shelved for six months
I agree you need a good grinder mazzer is great and rock solid
This thread has come a long way, but putting differences aside I think we've all learned a lot about coffee in general.
But one thing stands true; Good coffee is judged ultimately by the consumer.
...not by science, not by belief, not by hipsters - not by no one but the person drinking it.
p.s. Third wave for me was the whole 'first crack' light roast; let me pour some warm water over these coffee grinds for you and make it look like you're drinking tea instead.
Again, not that everyone was doing that, but just as Magic_Matt said:
and for that comment: +1Originally Posted by Magic_Matt
Because it's true. The 'Third wave' (damn I hate that title...) did make consumers more conscious and aware of where the coffee came from and how it was roasted, thus allowing the increase in demand for Single origins/estates, Direct trade and Micro lot coffee.
All in all, it was good for the sustainability and ethics within the trade as whole.
I could count the great shots I have experienced in cafes during the last few years (self-rated 3rd, 4th and 47th wave places), using one hand with spare digits remaining. I'm over ego as well and my response was in response... On the other hand I have had some amazing coffee via manual methods.
I love great coffee and experiencing it, but I'm very used to paying for hugely disappointing shots. Lemons are terrific with tequila, meringue and even when combined with gin and tonic..I'd prefer not to have them suck literally in coffee.