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Thread: Lelit PL60PLUST vs Sage (Breville) Dual Boiler

  1. #1
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    Question Lelit PL60PLUST vs Sage (Breville) Dual Boiler

    Hi all,


    I live in the UK and have asked this question in the coffee forum over here, without much of balanced view. Mainly with the Lelit not being very prominent over here, while I see a lot more love for it on Coffee Snobs.


    I currently have a Rancilio Silvia that needs replacing and I'm looking for a dual boiler (only). Have narrowed it down to the Lelit PL60PLUST and the Sage/Breville Dual Boiler.


    As far as I can tell the follow are the pros of each machine


    Lelit PL60PLUST
    - smaller form factor, fits better in my kitchen
    - full stainless steel body
    - double manometer
    - can turn off steam Boiler independently


    Sage/Breville Dual Boiler
    - much more control
    - better (?) heating system
    - can be purchased on the high street, so makes servicing/repairs easier.


    Coming from a Silvia, I don't seem myself tinkering too much once the machine is setup. Just want something that's consistent and hassle free. We do prefer our flat whites (although I tend to straight shots, long blacks also), hence a decent steam would be important. Part of the reason to go DB is also to cater for any entertaining and I may end up pouring a few coffees in a row, and the wait time on a single boiler is a pain.


    Anyone got any advise? Any owner of either (or both) happy to share your experiences? At the moment the Breville is only slightly more expensive so it's not even about the money.


    Also wondering if it's possible to descale the Lelit at home.


    Thanks in advance!

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    at that price range i would opt for a E61 HX or DB...

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    Quote Originally Posted by greymda View Post
    at that price range i would opt for a E61 HX or DB...
    Ok, I deffo don't want a HX, so if you know of an E61 DB around the £850 mark that's better than these two I'd love to know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flattie View Post
    Ok, I deffo don't want a HX, so if you know of an E61 DB around the £850 mark that's better than these two I'd love to know.
    Actually doesn't the e61 take at least 30 min to start up? I was looking for one with quicker heating up time as it fits my lifestyle better.

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    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    The lelit will still be running in 10 years time. The breville will be lucky to get 3 years out of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flattie View Post
    Actually doesn't the e61 take at least 30 min to start up? I was looking for one with quicker heating up time as it fits my lifestyle better.
    People get around the heat up time issue by using a socket timer to automatically turn on your machine at a preset time e.g in the morning. If you want super fast heat up times, go for the Breville(Sage in UK) Duo Temp Pro, Infuser or Barista Express. They all use Breville's thermocoil system(with PID temp control) instead of a boiler(s) and heats up in under a minute. I have the duo temp pro and normally do a minute long flush to heat up the group, portafilter and cups. Shot quality is really quite good I would say but ok, not as good as an E61.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigk View Post
    People get around the heat up time issue by using a socket timer to automatically turn on your machine at a preset time e.g in the morning..
    Yeah the timer thing isn't great though, if I decided last minute that I would like a coffee.

    Just noticed a thread about keeping the machine on all day and I have always thought it was going to be more expensive. Now I'm not sure. Need to look into it a bit more :/

    Thanks for the tip though!

  8. #8
    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flattie View Post
    Ok, I deffo don't want a HX, so if you know of an E61 DB around the £850 mark that's better than these two I'd love to know.
    Why not an hx?

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    Quote Originally Posted by trentski View Post
    The lelit will still be running in 10 years time. The breville will be lucky to get 3 years out of it.
    That's spot on Trent.
    Lelit is a prosumer machine
    Breville is a appliance.

    Here's an extract from my website:
    With appliances you're stuck with proprietary parts and electronics so when it breaks down, repair costs are so high that you'll probably head off to the tip, then go back to the store for a replacement. This is the cycle that appliance manufactures rely upon and plan for – known as “planned obsolescence.”

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    I don't think a thermoblock machine is an option. I have a BES920 that I got as a free replacement for a BES900 I bought with extender warranty. I made excellent coffee with the 900, better than at most cafes, and I am making the same excellent coffee with the 920 as well. The new machine heats up fast and they have ironed out some problems the 900 had. I don't know for how long my 920 will keep working well. The 900 needed repairs during the normal warranty period and then failed again during the extended warranty period. It has been extremely painful and irritating to deal with the high street sellers and the extended warranty company. They know absolutely nothing about coffee and offered a very, very bad service. So... I would actually go for the Lelit.

    By the way, Breville started selling the BES900 through the specialty coffee machines shops back in 2011, but I think margins were too thin. Breville could try to package their DB in stainless steel, change the brand name, increase the price a bit and sell it in proper shops again.

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    Junior Member coffe4me2's Avatar
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    I started with a Sunbeam and after 12 months the brushed stainless steel finish in the drip tray was pealing off the plastic substrate. My guess is that Breville quality would be comparable to that. Resale value of that sunbeam was terrible as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flattie View Post
    Hi all,


    I live in the UK and have asked this question in the coffee forum over here, without much of balanced view. Mainly with the Lelit not being very prominent over here, while I see a lot more love for it on Coffee Snobs.
    Where exactly are you? I take it you're not in London. Are you far from a big city (where service is likely to be available)?

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    Some great points mentioned above. You can read more info on appliance v prosumer here:
    www.kbean.com.au/buyers-guide/

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    Quote Originally Posted by trentski View Post
    Why not an hx?
    A few things I suppose - warm up time, consistency with the brew temp (I don't actually know how much I need to learn to get the temperature correct), learning curve?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Where exactly are you? I take it you're not in London. Are you far from a big city (where service is likely to be available)?
    I'm in London. Although the only supplier I could find for a Lelit here is based up near Birmingham.

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    Thanks guys for your responses. It's funny that the UK forum pretty much wrote off the Lelit while Coffee Snobs have gone the other way.

    Good point regarding resale value though. Not sure how well the Lelit would resell here TBH so something to think about

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    [QUOTE=flattie;602949]Thanks guys for your responses. It's funny that the UK forum pretty much wrote off the Lelit while Coffee Snobs have gone the other way.

    Quite often the success of a particular brand in a country has more to do with the local distributor then the attributes of the machine. These days there is not really a "bad machine" ,only ones that are better marketed , advertised or suited to particular markets
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    you're in the UK. in your place i would definitely get this http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/quik-m...hine-1629.html
    sam678 likes this.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flattie View Post
    I'm in London. Although the only supplier I could find for a Lelit here is based up near Birmingham.
    There's a place in Kentish Town that sells a range of espresso machines that I think provide reasonable service for most espresso machines. But you're right, they probably don't retail Lelit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coffe4me2 View Post
    I started with a Sunbeam and after 12 months the brushed stainless steel finish in the drip tray was pealing off the plastic substrate. My guess is that Breville quality would be comparable to that. Resale value of that sunbeam was terrible as well.
    In my experience Brevilles are a lot better than that. My BES900 didn't loss the shine in almost 5 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tupinamba View Post
    In my experience Brevilles are a lot better than that. My BES900 didn't loss the shine in almost 5 years.
    So do you rate the Breville then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by flattie View Post
    So do you rate the Breville then?
    The Breville is functional yet easy to use. It heats up fast and according to the Coffee Geek guy temperature stability is excellent. I have changed the brewing temperature a few times and noticed quite a change in taste, even when drinking coffee with milk. On the con side my 900 suffered from teething problems that have been hopefully solved in the 920. I don't know if the machine will work well a few years from now. I have reasonable doubts about it. And the very worst problem for me have been dealing with the Australian retailer, Harvey Norman.

    Note than when I bought my first machine it was a good $1000 cheaper than a Lelit, now the prices are much closer.

    Also, between you and me, although I think I would go for the Lelit I don't buy much of the sponsor's talk . As I said before, Breville could have chosen to make their DB machine to look less than appliance and provide proper support through specialty shops at a higher price. They must be making a killing selling it to aspirational bogans through "The Good Guys" (this is another Aussie mass market retailer).
    Last edited by Tupinamba; 1 Week Ago at 08:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tupinamba View Post
    The Breville is functional yet easy to use. It heats up fast and according to the Coffee Geek guy temperature stability is excellent. I have changed the brewing temperature a few times and noticed quite a change in taste, even when drinking coffee with milk. On the con side my 900 suffered from teething problems that have been hopefully solved in the 920. I don't know if the machine will work well a few years from now. I have reasonable doubts about it. And the very worst problem for me have been dealing with the Australian retailer, Harvey Norman.

    Note than when I bought my first machine it was a good $1000 cheaper than a Lelit, now the prices are much closer.

    Also, between you and me, although I think I would buy the Lelit I don't buy much of the sponsor's talk . As I said before Breville could have chosen to make their DB machine to look less than appliance and provide proper support through specialty shops at a higher price. They must be making a killing selling it to aspirational bogans through "The Good Guys".
    Nice. Thanks for a bit of a balanced view.

    FYI, the Lelit DB here in the UK is cheaper than the Breville... so a plus for that!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by flattie View Post
    A few things I suppose - warm up time, consistency with the brew temp (I don't actually know how much I need to learn to get the temperature correct), learning curve?
    An e61 takes 20 to 30 minutes to warm up regardless of single boiler, hx or double boiler.
    Hx with e61 is no less temp stable than a double boiler, but often cheaper and less complex.
    I have a rocket giotto premium plus and its a walk up and pour a shot machine, most hx in australia are the same but the machines are often specified to our market and the UK dealers may not be at the same standard as the coffeesnob sponsors, although i am sure there are some good ones.
    Make sure you arent "educated" from US forums when looking at espresso machines. The 110v machines seem to behave quite differently from the 220v world.

    The lelit is built using standard espresso machine parts. If something fails in 5 years time there will be parts available. The same wont be said of the breville.
    The breville makes good coffee but it is complicated in build and difficult to repair.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trentski View Post
    An e61 takes 20 to 30 minutes to warm up regardless of single boiler, hx or double boiler.
    Hx with e61 is no less temp stable than a double boiler, but often cheaper and less complex.
    I have a rocket giotto premium plus and its a walk up and pour a shot machine, most hx in australia are the same but the machines are often specified to our market and the UK dealers may not be at the same standard as the coffeesnob sponsors, although i am sure there are some good ones.
    Make sure you arent "educated" from US forums when looking at espresso machines. The 110v machines seem to behave quite differently from the 220v world.

    The lelit is built using standard espresso machine parts. If something fails in 5 years time there will be parts available. The same wont be said of the breville.
    The breville makes good coffee but it is complicated in build and difficult to repair.
    Right, but neither the Lelit nor the Breville have e61 groupheads... that may be an advantage in a home environment where fast warm up times are a plus. On the other side the e61 does look cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trentski View Post
    An e61 takes 20 to 30 minutes to warm up regardless of single boiler, hx or double boiler.
    Hx with e61 is no less temp stable than a double boiler, but often cheaper and less complex..
    Yeah I figured that after I read up a bit more. For now I don't think the E61 is the go for me so sticking with the two choices.

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    Warm up times are a complete distraction and completely irrelavent in the real world.
    It should not be a part of any decision making process.
    There are pleanty of $10 timers , or even other gadgets to allow you to remotely control the machine from your smart phone if you feel it necessary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    Warm up times are a complete distraction and completely irrelavent in the real world.
    It should not be a part of any decision making process.
    There are pleanty of $10 timers , or even other gadgets to allow you to remotely control the machine from your smart phone if you feel it necessary.
    I respectfully disagree.

    The timer is a workaround that people have to live with because of the machines they choose; Don't tell me if an E61 could warm up faster people wouldn't want that.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    Warm up times are a complete distraction and completely irrelavent in the real world.
    It should not be a part of any decision making process.
    .
    That's opinion. I was trying to represent the facts in an unbiased way so the OP can make their own opinions. Looks like they have decided e61 isnt for them and thats fine with me.

    Still would pick the lelit over the breville

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    Quote Originally Posted by flattie View Post
    I respectfully disagree.

    The timer is a workaround that people have to live with because of the machines they choose; Don't tell me if an E61 could warm up faster people wouldn't want that.
    Well, no. The very nature of an e61 group head means that it won't ever be fast to heat up. But don't kid yourself either, a good quality dual boiler with a semi-commercial group head will still take a similar amount of time to reach optimal temp stability as an e61 HX machine. This is simply because it takes time to heat the mass of metal contained in the group head and portafilter, even the stainless steel in the Sage/Breville.
    I don't really understand why people make such a fuss about warm up times. I'm a morning coffee person and I simply get up, go straight to the kitchen and turn my machine on then do a couple of other things, maybe have some breakfast and before you know it 20min has passed. In fact it's often more like 30-40min. I know everyone has different routines and morning schedules, but I think that unless you want to be up and out the door with a coffee in hand in 5-10min then warm up times shouldn't be a problem.
    I've never owned a Breville DB, but I do like what it can do and certainly wouldn't count out buying one at some point. By all accounts it's capabilities, shot quality as well as its set of features are much more like a $20k La Marzocco or similar than other appliance brands. It's biggest down side is it's low build quality. They have a greater failure rate than prosumer machines and even at their best would only get 10-12 years before they're beyond repair. And that's the crux of it really. Comparing the Lelit and the Sage is sort of like comparing apples with oranges. They are both easy to use, but in different ways as the Sage is a bit more 'push button' and let the machine do the work, whereas the Lelit embodies the simplicity of flicking a brew switch and watching/timing/weighing your extraction. The Lelit could have a bigger learning curve, but you'll actually learn more along the way.
    The other big difference is that you might get a good Sage that if well looked after will last 10-12 years, but I'd say that'd be about it. Whereas the Lelit is perpetually serviceable and repairable and has every chance of lasting 20, 30 or more years. Then again you might get a dodgy Sage that goes in for repair, spends 2-3 months there for the service centre to turn around and say it can't be repaired so they'll replace it. You end up with a refurbished machine that has the same problem 6 months later. This has happened to more than a few Breville owners here in Australia.
    With all that said I really think your best bet is to get in to a specialist retailer like Bella Barista and get the low down on all the DB and HX machines in your price range.
    A final point on warm up times. Things can be sped up by flushing water through the group head, but this isn't the best way to do it no matter what machine you owned. If I owned the following machines the minimum warm up times I'd allow for would be:
    Sage DB - 10-15min
    Lelit DB - 15min
    Lelit, Expobar, Isomac or similar HX - 20min
    Ultimately there's not a lot in it and while I wouldn't count it out altogether I'd make it a much lower priority than your other 'wants' when making a final decision.
    Hope this all helps, make sure you let us know what you decide.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    [...] the Sage is a bit more 'push button' and let the machine do the work, whereas the Lelit embodies the simplicity of flicking a brew switch and watching/timing/weighing your extraction. The Lelit could have a bigger learning curve, but you'll actually learn more along the way. [...]
    Hey, you make it sound like the Breville DB is something like a super auto! Any sensible user would at least time and watch the extraction (timing is actually made easy by a built in clock). A lot of people would weigh also. I don't trust the one shot and two shot volumetric buttons at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tupinamba View Post
    Hey, you make it sound like the Breville DB is something like a super auto! Any sensible user would at least time and watch the extraction (timing is actually made easy by a built in clock). A lot of people would weigh also. I don't trust the one shot and two shot volumetric buttons at all.
    Of course. I know it's a bit long winded, but you'll see in my post that I mention that the Breville has some great features and capabilities. Letting the machine do the work for you is merely one of these many functions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Ultimately there's not a lot in it and while I wouldn't count it out altogether I'd make it a much lower priority than your other 'wants' when making a final decision.
    Hope this all helps, make sure you let us know what you decide.
    I get it that if I wanted an E61 it'd be a longer waiting time hence I've decided against it for now. All I was saying that if it was possible for a quicker warm up without all the fuss, people would be jumping all over it.


    My wants were fairly simple, and I appreciate your write up.

    With regards to Bella Barista, unfortunately nothing they stock is within my budget and as such have looked else where.

    Right now I'm heavily leaning towards the Lelit but haven't yet discounted the Sage due to its extra features. Price wise they are about the same, I suppose it's just longevity and resell value I need to consider, as I don't envision keeping either machine for 5+ years.
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  34. #34
    Site Sponsor K_Bean_Coffee's Avatar
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    Hi Flattie,
    You can read a little about Lelit here: www.kbean.com.au/lelit-machines/
    Cheers Paul
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    Quote Originally Posted by flattie View Post
    I get it that if I wanted an E61 it'd be a longer waiting time hence I've decided against it for now. All I was saying that if it was possible for a quicker warm up without all the fuss, people would be jumping all over it.


    My wants were fairly simple, and I appreciate your write up.

    With regards to Bella Barista, unfortunately nothing they stock is within my budget and as such have looked else where.

    Right now I'm heavily leaning towards the Lelit but haven't yet discounted the Sage due to its extra features. Price wise they are about the same, I suppose it's just longevity and resell value I need to consider, as I don't envision keeping either machine for 5+ years.
    A useful extra feature of the Breville DB is the easily adjustable pre-infusion. Just saying.
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    If price wise they are about the same and neither will be kept more than 5 years. I'd personally get the Lelit. In Oz the Lelit costs $800 more than the BES920.

    I'd agree the long heat up time on e61 is a deal breaker for many people, and timer is really not a good solution. it might work well for some people and not for many others. and not to mention the complexity of the E61 (seals, springs, valves etc.)
    flattie likes this.

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    So, I've actually settled for the BES920 for a few of reasons:
    1. Any fixes and warranty work needs to go back to base far from me (I can probably find someone in London that can service it, but haven't had any luck so far)
    2. The BES920 is better marketed here so resale is likely easier
    3. The BES920 seems fairly user friendly so would be useful for the occasional staying guests to use (and the wife!)
    4. I like the design of the heating elements and the super quick start up. The ease of playing around with some settings to change a coffee's profile... not sure how much I'd use this but something I wouldn't mind looking into occasionally.

    Thanks again all for your advise. Really appreciated all the inputs.
    maximized likes this.

  38. #38
    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    Make sure you come back and tell us about the great coffee you are making 😎

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    Quote Originally Posted by trentski View Post
    Make sure you come back and tell us about the great coffee you are making
    Will do

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    Junior Member coffe4me2's Avatar
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    Hey Flattie,
    I have been there and don't think it's a good idea. Just think about durability, expensive repairs, cheap materials and resale.
    Best of luck though if you choose that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coffe4me2 View Post
    Hey Flattie,
    I have been there and don't think it's a good idea. Just think about durability, expensive repairs, cheap materials and resale.
    Best of luck though if you choose that one.
    Hi coffe4me2, really appreciate the sentiment. I've decided to go down the route anyway as the Lelit is practically unknown in the UK, and the Breville is well received here. There's a 2 year warranty and it's with John Lewis who is very good with repairs/replacements so we should be good.

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