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Thread: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

  1. #1
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    G’day all,

    First let me apologise. I was going to take copious before and after measurements: heat-up time, precise on/off times while idling, and noise levels while pumping; but I couldn’t wait for it to heat up and then cool down before I insulated the boiler and Dynamated the case, so there are no exact figures.

    Before
    Boiler: was on for about 4-5 seconds and off for 50-55.
    Noise: reasonably noisy while pumping although a full water tank helped. Turning on the machine with the toggle switch made a hollowish metallic clang as if a toggle had been installed on a 44 gallon drum, except higher pitched. Rapping the sides or rear panel also gave an ‘empty drum’ type noise.

    What I did (see pics)
    Boiler: three layers of Insul-Brite, fastened with Velcro strips contact cemented to the I-B, and a drawstring in the top to tighten around the top lip of the boiler. No insulation was placed on the bottom of the boiler due to the many connections and the top was also left basically bare.
    This was really easy to do, the I-B is easy to work, cuts with scissors, very clean and was manipulated into place in minutes. According to the data both glue and all materials are good to >150°C.

    Dynamat: 5 inch squares were stuck on all 4 side panels of the case. Strategically placed 25 or 50 mm wide strips on the top, by the pump on the floor of the machine, on the metal pump bracket, and any other bent metal bracket that I thought might vibrate. One 5 inch square is left over.
    This stuff is a polymer bonded to a thick aluminium foil and is very pliable and soft, cuts easily with scissors, and sticks like nothing I’ve ever used before! The sheet is about 1.5 mm thick and since it is designed to withstand the heat in car engine compartments is good to about 149°C. It is “peel and stick.”

    After

    WOW.

    Boiler: now on for 4-5 seconds and off for 80. This is a increase of 25 to 30 seconds in the cycle time! A very worthwhile saving.

    Noise: Reassembling the machine was much quieter, the case didn’t ring at all while fitting. What noise there was sounded really well-damped—thuds and thumps rather than clangs as before the treatment.
    The toggle switch now sounds like a quiet toggle on a high quality amplifier—more of a loud ‘snick’ with no reverberation from the case at all.
    Turning on the pump almost gave me a heart attack—the whole thing is so quiet I thought I’d broken something! I can hear the water rushing through the system.

    Was it worth the total of less than $45? You bet.

    Would I do it again? Sure would. The whole job, including waiting for the glue to dry took about 2 hours.

    If there is any change I’ll update this but I’m not really expecting anything.

    WOW.

    Greg










  2. #2
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening


    Thats a beautiful job Greg- well done. I hadnt thought of the noise insulation- a multisensory approach! I guess my Faema has those synthetic panels on the end and a lot of space around the boiler and pump.
    Im glad it all worked out
    Brett

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Hi Greg,
    nice easy stuff to do which seems to offer great bang for the buck.
    I have looked into the Dynamat, but its horribly expensive, like $200 a pack.

    Can you tell me wher you got yours from, as I note that you have only used small quantities.

    Thanks in advance.


  4. #4
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Here you go Apple.... http://tinyurl.com/yahwrv6 :)

    Cheers,
    Mal.

  5. #5
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Hi Apple,

    Most car audio shops will carry it. I got the smallest packet--as per Mals post--the speaker kit @ $29.

    Greg
    Still loving the difference in the sound.

  6. #6
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Quote Originally Posted by 1D283F3D0D3528373B363E5A0 link=1258726137/4#4 date=1259237817
    Still loving the difference in the sound.
    I bet.... 8-)

    Thinking along similar lines for my DJE. Was nice and quiet up until about 6-8 weeks ago then this noise started to creep in during a shot pour. Have changed out the pump courtesy of CosmoreX and this has quieted her down quite a lot but have been eyeing off what youve done (and since Ive got her partially disassembled), and reckon thats worth applying to my baby as well.... Might as well, eh?

    All the best mate :)
    Mal.

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    This is great greg, what effect do you think this sort of mod would have on warranty? or is it removable? ;)

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Thanks for the link guys.........will be getting some today!!!!!!!!!

  9. #9
    Gra
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Quote Originally Posted by 53667173437B6679757870140 link=1258726137/4#4 date=1259237817

    Most car audio shops will carry it. I got the smallest packet--as per Mals post--the speaker kit @ $29.
    You can get it from Auto Barn as well its called Road Kill..$29.95

    Thanks for the heads up Greg makes a big difference.

    Cheers Gra


  10. #10
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Quote Originally Posted by 7470564F4F4A55424D230 link=1258726137/6#6 date=1259280704
    This is great greg, what effect do you think this sort of mod would have on warranty? or is it removable? ;)
    While technically it might be removable Im sure it would be a right pain to do so, and youd be cleaning the residue with alcohol for hours.

    As to the warranty I dont really know. As I had to disassemble my machine twice to effect warranty repairs myself the point remains moot.

    I cant see it affecting the performance, I guess it would depend on what needed warranty work.

    Greg

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    A_M
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Quote Originally Posted by 04292D212C400 link=1258726137/5#5 date=1259241880
    Quote Originally Posted by 1D283F3D0D3528373B363E5A0 link=1258726137/4#4 date=1259237817
    Still loving the difference in the sound. *
    I bet.... 8-)

    Thinking along similar lines for my DJE. Was nice and quiet up until about 6-8 weeks ago then this noise started to creep in during a shot pour. Have changed out the pump courtesy of CosmoreX and this has quieted her down quite a lot but have been eyeing off what youve done (and since Ive got her partially disassembled), and reckon thats worth applying to my baby as well.... Might as well, eh?

    All the best mate :)
    Mal.
    Just finished doing mine ;D

    Two wraps of Insul-Brite on the boiler and one and 1/2 squares of the Dynamat placed on the 3 sides... With attention to the area around the pump and the plate that seperates the water tank from the boiler..

    Sounds a little quiter... But has a deep mor mellow sound.. I think I like..

    At present... My Rocky is in bits as I am going to do it as well:

  12. #12
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Definitely sounds like a worthwhile thing to do alright.... 8-)

    Mal.

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Have just given my machine the Dynamat treatment, as Greg suggested went into Tonkin car radio in Adelaide to buy the small $30 pack, to my chagrine they had sold out, however they offered me a much bigger pack at a discount, cost me $40 and I was able to cover 2 sides and back panel completely, as well as applying it to other strategic areas and still a little left over.
    The result? difficult to say, but certainly a significant improvement, as AngerManagement said
    Quote Originally Posted by 16393032251A36393630323A323923570 link=1258726137/10#10 date=1259323793
    But has a deep mor mellow sound..
    And I agree.
    Did not insulate the boiler with Insulbright as the company I bought the machine from indicated to me this would void the warranty, perhaps later.
    Was the noise dampening worth doing, you bet. *;D

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Great job Greg. Ill be insulating my boiler V soon.

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    For anyone interested in changes after boiler insulation on a Giotto here are my findings:

    1. Any changes to cup warming are negligible. They still get very warm within 30 minutes of start-up.
    2. Cycle time increased from 60 seconds to 80 seconds.
    3. I expect temperature in the water reservoir will still get high if the machine is left on for a long period of time.

    Here is a photo:




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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Pauly what did you use to insulate?


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    TC
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Ill just wonder out loud as to how many $ per year this will save. $10? $50?

    Id be really curious to know if theres a brainiac out there....

    Chris

  18. #18
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Hi Chris,

    I suppose I could calculate the $savings in power, but that wasnt really one of my principal reasons.

    I like the quiteness of the casing insulation.
    Im helping save power and (maybe) the planet.
    As Mal pointed out somewhere else, any reduction in heat transfer to the electronic components is worthwhile.
    Some of the very high-end pro-sumer machines come with insulated boilers, so not doing it is probably a cost saver at the manufacturing end.

    Besides--I like tinkering. :)

    Greg

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    A_M
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Quote Originally Posted by 77425557675F425D515C54300 link=1258726137/17#17 date=1267773263
    Hi Chris,

    I suppose I could calculate the $savings in power, but that wasnt really one of my principal reasons.

    I like the quiteness of the casing insulation.
    Im helping save power and (maybe) the planet.
    As Mal pointed out somewhere else, any reduction in heat transfer to the electronic components is worthwhile.

    Some of the very high-end pro-sumer machines come with insulated boilers, so not doing it is probably a cost saver at the manufacturing end.

    Besides--I like tinkering. :)

    Greg
    Greg.. I agree with ya comments... My main reason was not Costs ?

    It was about the noise and the fact that it was a simple mod. The fact that there appear to be some upsides is a pleasant positive that was not on the radar.

    As to costs.. With out a standard method / process and some hard data and projected savings as to "Insulate ya boiler and save X" would be a bit of snake oil.

    However a slight wording change and a possible projected band of a saving of x - y % of element on time - might be more reasonable / accurate....

    Not sure what the carbon cost is of manufacturing the insulation material etc... But would like to think the outcome would be a TRUE saving over 6 or 12 months..

    Not like teh con job over solar power generation that every one is being sold on today.

    PS. Will be doing to my NEW machine and have done to all other systems that I have worked on...

    I have also found that the insulation helps to keep heat away from the GiCar box and thus possible, that it will save further costs down the road as these often fail early due to heat related stress.

    Excluding teh Em6910 ;D

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    This is a rather professional looking insulation job- they used FDA-Compliant Silicone Foam Rubber rated to 232 deg c.


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    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    That is indeed a fine job. I wish Id been able to source foam like that--I couldnt locate anything at all. Although the Insul-Brite continues to work well I doubt that it is as insulating as the foam.

    Its almost a shame to hide the loverly orange inside. ;D

    Greg

  22. #22
    KJM
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Quote Originally Posted by 5B6E797B4B736E717D70781C0 link=1258726137/20#20 date=1267837099
    That is indeed a fine job. I wish Id been able to source foam like that--I couldnt locate anything at all. Although the Insul-Brite continues to work well I doubt that it is as insulating as the foam.

    Its almost a shame to hide the loverly orange inside. ;D

    Greg
    Greg - Fitch the Rubberman has this stuff. But it isnt cheap!! Youre looking at something like $60 per square foot for it.

    You can also source sound-deadening material from crash repairers suppliers. I cant remember the brand name, but you can get 3mm thick sheets (600x900) for less than $50. They have a high-tech "constrained boundary layer" adhesive and significant mass. The sheets I bought (NOT for a coffee machine, but it has now given me ideas!) were the 10kg sheets. They do other grades too. Dont know exactly what they put in the sheets - depleted U-235 is still expensive ;)

    /Kevin

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    yikes i dont wanna jump the gun but pauly looks to have insulated the boiler with dynamat :S

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    In reference to the high density foam installation shown in Runfasts picture, how would the ends be secured. A few dobs of high temp glue is about all I can think of. I have some arriving soon along with other parts for my little project.

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    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Quote Originally Posted by 3E212B3A2729252D3A480 link=1258726137/23#23 date=1279315473
    In reference to the high density foam installation shown in Runfasts picture, how would the ends be secured. A few dobs of high temp glue is about all I can think of. I have some arriving soon along with other parts for my little project.
    I doubt it needs much fixing--some zip ties for around the boiler and some basic contact cement for the ends. According to my reading the contact cement I used is good to 145°C--or about 20° hotter than the boiler should get at +1.2 bar.

    Greg

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Ive just been having a bit of a read up on the net. Something like Permatex Ultra Copper silicone gasketmaker looks like it could be OK.
    Any suggestions/feedback is most welcome.

  27. #27
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Silastic will do the job Vic, I imagine most of us would have a cartridge in the shed, will withstand car exhaust manifold temps, just make sure surfaces are clean and will stick like sh*t to a blanket. ;)

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    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Hi Vic

    If you use the Permatex product or something like Loctite 596 (probably overkill), I suggest you first find out whether these products have any reaction with the insulation material you are using.

    I dont recommend you simply go out to the shed and use Silastic as has been suggested. Silastic is a brand name, not a product name, and like Loctite, there are numerous products that fall under those brands and are suitable for different purposes.

    You might also keep in mind that if you use products of this type, its likely that they will need some form of physical clamping until curing takes effect. They are also likely to require mechanical removal should the need arise, so use sparingly, if at all.


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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Hello Dennis
    The insulation material is a high temp closed-cell silicone sponge and something like Permatex Ultra Copper Gasket maker is listed as a high temp silicone, Im just thinking out loud here that it would be compatible.

  30. #30
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Im no expert Vic, and didnt intend to scare monger. Just that I tend to err on the side of caution momentarily before I go ahead and do it anyway! ;D

    If the information isnt available from the manufacturer or sales person, I reckon Mal would be able to provide sound advice.

  31. #31
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Vic I can assure you Dow Corning Silastic 732, temp stable to 230c
    http://www2.blackwoods.com.au/infoBANKProduct.aspx?SG=2000165&S=4084748&G=200422 2&P=2027481 will do the job, however also check this Bostik product out, temp stable up to 350c http://www2.blackwoods.com.au/infoBANKProduct.aspx?SG=2000165&S=4084748&G=200422 2&P=7741858 certainly ticks all the boxes in spades. ;)

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Im no expert Vic, and didnt intend to scare monger. Just that I tend to err on the side of caution momentarily before I go ahead and do it anyway!
    Same here Dennis, advice is appreciated.
    Jon that Bostik 936 looks the goods.

  33. #33
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Quote Originally Posted by 302F253429272B2334460 link=1258726137/31#31 date=1279358817
    Jon that Bostik 936 looks the goods.
    Have not used it Vic, but Googled listing criteria and up she came, and of course available from Blackwoods. :)

  34. #34
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    I wouldnt "glue" the end-covers on vr....

    Can make life difficult later on for any number of reasons. Far better to use suitable Velcro fasteners so that the system can be easily de-constructed when maintenance dictates that the end covers need to be removed. That Silicone Sponge Sheet is very soft material and easily torn so (if glued) the only way to remove it cleanly down the track, would be to slice the joint open with a scalpel or really sharp hobby knife - Still not ideal in my view.

    Also, if you cut the material to size such that the end-covers are slightly over-size, then when you cable-tie the cylindrical section around them, the interference fit will hold them in place quite snugly - an even simpler method.... ;)

    Mal.

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Also, if you cut the material to size such that the end-covers are slightly over-size, then when you cable-tie the cylindrical section around them, the interference fit will hold them in place quite snugly
    I thought of that Mal, but after I ordered it, I should have requested 1/4" thick for the ends, it migt not work so well with it being 1/2" thick.
    Far better to use suitable Velcro fasteners
    Velcro sounds good but how would I attach the velcro to the foam?

  36. #36
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Quote Originally Posted by 527F7B777A160 link=1258726137/33#33 date=1279385515
    Can make life difficult later on for any number of reasons. Far better to use suitable Velcro fasteners
    Good thinking Mal, like that idea. ;)

  37. #37
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Quote Originally Posted by 6C737968757B777F681A0 link=1258726137/34#34 date=1279406075
    Velcro sounds good but how would I attach the velcro to the foam? *
    How about high temp adhesive ;D seriously though, any one with a sewing machine could stitch it on, easy. ;)

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Onto 1/2" foam.

  39. #39
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Quote Originally Posted by 69767C6D707E727A6D1F0 link=1258726137/37#37 date=1279408229
    Onto 1/2" foam.
    OK, hand stitch. ;)

  40. #40
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Quote Originally Posted by 465953425F515D5542300 link=1258726137/34#34 date=1279406075
    Also, if you cut the material to size such that the end-covers are slightly over-size, then when you cable-tie the cylindrical section around them, the interference fit will hold them in place quite snugly
    I thought of that Mal, but after I ordered it, I should have requested 1/4" thick for the ends, it migt not work so well with it being 1/2" thick.
    Probably work even better with thicker material...

    Quote Originally Posted by 465953425F515D5542300 link=1258726137/34#34 date=1279406075
    Far better to use suitable Velcro fasteners
    Velcro sounds good but how would I attach the velcro to the foam?
    Any good quality Silicone Adhesive will do the trick...

    Mal.

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Yep a few things to try when it gets here thanks all.

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Nearly done, I left some tabs sticking out on the ends to tuck in, a bit lumpy but good enough, itll do the job.



  43. #43
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Should do an excellent job vr.... 8-)

    Nice work too... [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

    Mal.

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Thanks Mal

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Quote Originally Posted by 624F4B474A260 link=1258726137/42#42 date=1280649098
    Should do an excellent job vr.... 8-)

    Nice work too... [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

    Mal.
    Hi VR,

    Can I ask where you bought the insulation foam from? Looks like a good idea. You can PM if its not ok to post the link in here.

    Regards.

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    I bought it from overseas. I ordered a few items I couldnt get locally and they agreed to supply some cut to size, it makes a great packing material. I must say I feel theres a opportunity for a site sponsor to buy a sheet and offer it cut to size, I dont think they will get stuck with it.

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Quote Originally Posted by 5E59424A4D5F582C0 link=1258726137/19#19 date=1267775213
    This is a rather professional looking insulation job- they used FDA-Compliant Silicone Foam Rubber rated to 232 deg c.
    How thick is this and what thickness to you recommend and who did you get it from?

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    I think that this is an important topic, with some good usefull information that is general enough to suggest maybe it should be moved to the "important topics" section?

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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Quote Originally Posted by 2E2B3C232E2E2B3C2F334A0 link=1258726137/46#46 date=1306883060
    Quote Originally Posted by 5E59424A4D5F582C0 link=1258726137/19#19 date=1267775213
    This is a rather professional looking insulation job- they used FDA-Compliant Silicone Foam Rubber rated to 232 deg c.
    How thick is this and what thickness to you recommend and who did you get it from?
    I tried 3 Clark Rubber stores in Qld, 3mm sheet about 30cm x 30cm was about $80.
    and 6mm from the place in SA was only in 120cm wide pieces and 30cm of this cost about $300 - too much of the "hard earned" for my liking... :(

    However, my "Xtreme Dynamat" sound insulation matting turned up from the U.S. today; about 90cm x 60cm for about $50 and about 8 days for delivery :) this will go in over the long weekend - I will post an update next week on the improvement. 8-)


  50. #50
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: Boiler insulation & noise dampening

    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    While the "Closed Cell Silicone Rubber Sponge Sheet" (phew, a bit of a mouthful) is probably the ideal stuff to use, there are others that provide almost as good an end result in academic terms, but perfect for the job in a practical sense. Especially given how expensive and difficult the CCSRSS (:P) is to acquire...

    Theres the High Temperature rated Armaflex (basically a specially formulated Neoprene) that has been group purchased by CSers before. Another very successful alternative is something called "Insul Bright" which can be wrapped around the Boiler in several layers to achieve a very impressive result.

    Also, theres no reason why you couldnt use Glass Wool Batts of the appropriate thickness - You can get these in a lower irritant form now that use Long Strand Bio-soluble glass strands; would still be a good idea to wrap in something to prevent loose fibres causing issues.

    You could also use several wrapped layers of woven fibreglass cloth to achieve a similar result to the Insul Bright - Id lean more towards the Insul Bright though instead of this, as its both cheaper and not subject to the same sort of degradation over time...

    All the best,
    Mal.

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