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Thread: espresso parts precision baskets

  1. #51
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    *To avoid re-starting an old debate...I'm aware that some branded baskets do behave better if dosed within 1g of their nominal rating.
    Should have been in politics
    Thanks BOS

  2. #52
    Senior Member Vinitasse's Avatar
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    It could be said that these particular branded baskets need Very Special Treatment in order to work properly. ;-P
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  3. #53
    Senior Member NakiChap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesigningByCoffee View Post
    It's interesting. I've had cause to weigh out the timed dose I normally use for my EP triple basket (for grinding for cold brew - never use a scale for espresso) and it is almost 25g. A lot for a 21g basket I'd have thought?!?
    Results are great though…
    By memory I was dosing approx 23g in the triple and close to 20g in the double , that's with my rancilio s26 may be different on an E61 .

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinitasse View Post
    It could be said that these particular branded baskets need Very Special Treatment in order to work properly. ;-P
    G'day Vinitasse

    Not special at all. Anyone passionate about their coffee that is incapable of playing with grind / dose / tamp to optimise their gear should seek training, not if not help. Just like Barri's (slightly cut) post:-
    Quote Originally Posted by barri View Post
    Incidentally I put 14 gms in a VST 7gm single basket producing great shots. I certainly don't follow manufacturers recommendations. Each to their own.
    I put just under 15g in a VST single when testing and got a good "well above drinkable" result. I happen to prefer the result I get at 7.3g to 7.4g (much finer grind and lighter multiple tamps), however that just shows how widely a VST can be dosed and how well it responds to the "Mano" bit of espresso making. Of course, balancing the shot is essential and that is where the VST is a delight to me: it shows me exactly what I am achieving in the shot. The only improvement would be if it could talk and tell me exactly why...

    Just as there is a place for baskets with poor flow rates that somewhat mask the role of 3 of the 4 "M's", there is a place for gear that responds in detail to every nuance.

    For example, that is why I still miss my old manual paddle / lever Electra, even if I pulled some of my worst shots ever until I (eventually) tamed the beast.

    Just like cars some like raw power, others good handling whilst others (like me) want it all...

    TampIt
    Last edited by TampIt; 25th November 2014 at 11:30 PM.

  5. #55
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    Sigh.... Somebody ring a bell? There is a VST thread here. I'm sure you must recall it?
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  6. #56
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Sigh.... Somebody ring a bell? There is a VST thread here. I'm sure you must recall it?
    The constant banging on about these things brings to mind the title of an old song sung by Herb Long, some things certainly do get tedious don't they?

    Have a listen, may well bring an early morning smile to your face.

    "Life Gets Tedious Don't It" - YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by timdimdom View Post
    I can say that after spending some time with the baskets with 2 or so kgs of beans with the team, they are much more tolerant of operator variations and still produce a great cup (much better than the stock expobar baskets). Rings at the bottom of the baskets have gone, though i still find the pucks looking different at the end of each shot.
    Well it's 3 years later and I'm having the same issue as the OP using my new EP precision basket: my pucks are not "knocking out" easily. When I say "knocking out" I should clarify that I do not actually knock the handle on anything, a quick flick of the wrist into the bin has always worked for me with the stock Sunbeam baskets. The dry puck just flicks right out.

    This is in a home setting with a Sunbeam EM7000 and only 2 espressos a day so I'm not overly concerned about it, but it would be nice if the pucks came out cleanly like they do when I use the Sunbeam basket. My (inaccurate) kitchen scales tell me that I'm dosing ~18-20g. I am still dialling things in with the new baskets but here's what the end result ends up looking like. The puck is also pretty wet after the extraction.

    2017-05-08 14.11.38.jpg

    @timdimdom do you by any chance remember what changes you made back in 2014 that fixed the puck issues? Or can anyone else provide any pointers?

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    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeezaw View Post
    Well it's 3 years later and I'm having the same issue as the OP using my new EP precision basket: my pucks are not "knocking out" easily. When I say "knocking out" I should clarify that I do not actually knock the handle on anything, a quick flick of the wrist into the bin has always worked for me with the stock Sunbeam baskets. The dry puck just flicks right out.

    This is in a home setting with a Sunbeam EM7000 and only 2 espressos a day so I'm not overly concerned about it, but it would be nice if the pucks came out cleanly like they do when I use the Sunbeam basket. My (inaccurate) kitchen scales tell me that I'm dosing ~18-20g. I am still dialling things in with the new baskets but here's what the end result ends up looking like. The puck is also pretty wet after the extraction.

    2017-05-08 14.11.38.jpg

    @timdimdom do you by any chance remember what changes you made back in 2014 that fixed the puck issues? Or can anyone else provide any pointers?
    I'd say the problem you're having is that water isn't permeating through the puck properly.

    What kind of metrics are you seeing - what's your volume across 30 seconds? How long does it take for you to see coffee out of the spouts? Hard to tell from the angle, but looks like you could be pulling restricted shots (low volume), and seems that the water is mostly finding a path through the middle of the puck, rather than an even extraction. I'd be coarsening up the grind slightly and letting it run a full 30 seconds, which will hopefully allow water to permeate the whole puck and extract a little more evenly.

    If you're getting the volume that you want, but the shot blondes quickly toward the end and moves to gushing, again try coarsening but up the dose to hit your 30 second timeframe.

    The sticking isn't an issue with the basket per se, just you will need to make some changes compared to the sunbeam baskets, as they may have different hole diameters, and different flow/resistance etc.
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  9. #59
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Nicely explained Al...

    Mal.
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    Thanks for the feedback, readeral. I'll try to answer your questions one by one.

    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    What kind of metrics are you seeing - what's your volume across 30 seconds? How long does it take for you to see coffee out of the spouts? Hard to tell from the angle, but looks like you could be pulling restricted shots (low volume), and seems that the water is mostly finding a path through the middle of the puck, rather than an even extraction.
    I haven't measured the volume but the EM7000 is programmed for 1 cup = 30mL so that should be the volume. While I didn't weigh that particular shot, the next shot I pulled was 32g (bearing in mind my scale only has 2g precision). So I guess that sits squarely in the ristretto category? Shot time was 23 seconds but that excludes pre-infusion. I haven't timed the pre-infusion part, should this be included in shot time? As a guess I would say the pump is on for 2 seconds and off for 2 seconds before proceeding with the extraction. The first drips probably start at 7-8 seconds.

    I seem to remember 18g yielding 37g shots with the SB filter but that was with different beans as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    If you're getting the volume that you want, but the shot blondes quickly toward the end and moves to gushing, again try coarsening but up the dose to hit your 30 second timeframe.
    I've gone up in coarseness a notch for my last shot and it helped a bit. My only concern is that I'm already at ~20g—should I really need to go much higher than that? I'm on setting 4 on my grinder at the moment and seem to recall settings around 10 producing a gusher. Though, admittedly, I've never ventured much past 22g in the basket.

  11. #61
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Yeah 32g would be tending toward Ristretto from an 18g dose, but not by much. Aiming for that 36/7/8 would be a better ratio. I'd be steering clear of the programmed buttons and just riding manual, cutting the shot with the colour change.
    With timing and stuff, given you have preinfusion, I'm not sure if I'll be able to make sense of it for you - each machine operates differently when it comes to pre-programmed preinfusion, but the beginning of the shot is probably in the ballpark. Depending on how the water is delivered out of the group, the preinfusion could be causing more trouble than it's worth, especially if water is able to pool toward the centre of the puck prior to proper extraction.

    Sometimes you just have to "suck it and see". As per the discussion above (or maybe another thread, I can't remember), you might be better off going by depth of the dose rather than weight, so coarsen up a little more, updose a little more making sure you're not getting an impression on the dry puck when locking in (or riding up around the seal when/after brewing) and see what happens. If it's running too fast, fine it down a little again. It's a balance, and as you say, it makes a difference depending on the beans too. If you're using a stepped grinder (which it sounds like you are) dose is kind of your "micro-adjustability".

    Keep at it!

    FWIW, by all reports of friends with Sunbeam/Breville machines with 9 bar OPVs and using aftermarket baskets, they've tended to need to 'overdose'. A quirk of the appliance machine I suppose?
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeezaw View Post
    Well it's 3 years later and I'm having the same issue as the OP using my new EP precision basket: my pucks are not "knocking out" easily. When I say "knocking out" I should clarify that I do not actually knock the handle on anything, a quick flick of the wrist into the bin has always worked for me with the stock Sunbeam baskets. The dry puck just flicks right out.

    This is in a home setting with a Sunbeam EM7000 and only 2 espressos a day so I'm not overly concerned about it, but it would be nice if the pucks came out cleanly like they do when I use the Sunbeam basket. My (inaccurate) kitchen scales tell me that I'm dosing ~18-20g. I am still dialling things in with the new baskets but here's what the end result ends up looking like. The puck is also pretty wet after the extraction.

    2017-05-08 14.11.38.jpg

    @timdimdom do you by any chance remember what changes you made back in 2014 that fixed the puck issues? Or can anyone else provide any pointers?

    G'day zeezaw

    The answer(s) is(are) staring you in the face - if you know what you are looking for... (i.e. don't feel like an idiot - it is not intuitive at all).

    1) Look at commercial link removed as per Site Posting Policy and note the holes do not go anywhere near the edge of the basket. What a strange coincidence, that is the area where the flow is effectively zero and the grounds persist.

    Further info: If your grinder has an even particle spread (i.e. a sorted SB 480 / Smartgrinder or better in terms of spread - a lot of traditional commercial grinders are a fail in this area) and you grind fine enough to get a really good extraction, 9 bar pressure is not enough to move all the grounds around to get to the edges of the EP / HQ so called "precision basket". Plainly your grinder is good enough in this area to get you into this issue.

    2) There are at least two types of 6910s showerscreens. The ones I have seen are either 45mm or 30mm "across the holes". If you have the smaller version, that will make the retention worse.

    3) Add a convex base on the tamper, it gets worse. Some 6910s have a flat base on the tamper, some are curved, a few are really quite convex. Why SB do this is one of life's mysteries. In my view (and I am not alone in this one) a flat based tamper will always give a better extraction in a decent basket. School of hard knocks for me on this one. In the '90's I bought a Reg Barber "US curved base" tamper and consistently managed worse shots on my better baskets. I then bought a "Euro curved base" RB - and got relatively better shots out of the better baskets. Then I made a home made base "flat base" for the RB and got better shots then either of them when I used the good baskets. Significantly, I had worse shots with the flat base on poorer baskets (mainly those which came with the machines). Whilst on tamping, many distribution techniques can alter this factor (e.g. nutating will probably improve it if your tamper is a poor fit).

    4) Run the shot shorter, it gets worse - less overall flow. On such a poor basket instead of getting an uneven extraction you will get an area of missed grounds as there are no holes anywhere near the edges. FWIW, dark roasts are more soluble, so a lighter roast also makes the effect worse.

    I am expecting some flames over those points, however they are all easy to test (if you can be bothered).

    My recommendation - your posts have also shown that you are trying to get the best out of your gear and are prepared to tinker. I would suggest you get a VST basket in whatever size your normal desired dose is, and probably one size down as well (the higher flow and higher extraction of a VST means a lot more flavour out of the same beans when you get it optimised). If you have a curved base on your tamper find / beg / borrow a flat based one long term. If you have a healthy budget, get the VST baskets and "matching to fit" flat based tamper (in 316 stainless) from Pullman / things coffee (see their web site).

    TampIt
    Last edited by Javaphile; 10th May 2017 at 11:49 AM. Reason: Commercial link(s) removed
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  13. #63
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    TampIt, the last thing zeezaw needs is a sell on an alternative basket at the moment. As mentioned, this issue doesn't occur with the stock baskets, so if anything they'd be going back to stock as the solution. I'm not a VST basher, I own and use daily two VSTs, but I honestly do not think it's primarily an issue of the basket in itself, but the adjustment of variables suitable for the basket [which, as we know, one must do for any basket, including VST].

    However, you do essentially say too fine and too short = trouble, which is what I was getting at above, and is what Zeezaw is working through.

    Zeezaw, let us know how you're going with things, work with that basket a little longer (maybe also try some fresher beans) before throwing more money at it.

  14. #64
    Senior Member 2muchcoffeeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    The answer(s) is(are) staring you in the face...
    Agreed. In 95% of my experience with this issue with any basket, it's an issue with dose and/or grind. In general, too fine.

    What it's not is another excuse to shitecan EP HQ baskets- again nor flog on behalf of others expensive very special treatment baskets. What happened to the plug for a Vario grinder? Surely he needs one of them as well to solve his problem?

    zeezaw, my advice is to master what you have rather than look for some holy grail which likely does not exist.

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    Very helpful comments here, thanks. I feel kind of bad about hijacking this thread but please bear with me...

    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    The answer(s) is(are) staring you in the face - if you know what you are looking for... (i.e. don't feel like an idiot - it is not intuitive at all).

    1) Look at commercial link removed as per Site Posting Policy and note the holes do not go anywhere near the edge of the basket. What a strange coincidence, that is the area where the flow is effectively zero and the grounds persist.
    To be honest, this was my first thought as well since even the SB baskets have holes closer to the edges. But many people on this forum and others get good results from the EP baskets so my feeling is that with enough tweaks to my technique I should be able to get good results.

    My shower screen is 45mm across the holes and the tamper is flat with rounded edges and is not a great fit, if I'm honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    My recommendation - your posts have also shown that you are trying to get the best out of your gear and are prepared to tinker. I would suggest you get a VST basket in whatever size your normal desired dose is, and probably one size down as well (the higher flow and higher extraction of a VST means a lot more flavour out of the same beans when you get it optimised). If you have a curved base on your tamper find / beg / borrow a flat based one long term. If you have a healthy budget, get the VST baskets and "matching to fit" flat based tamper (in 316 stainless) from Pullman / things coffee (see their web site).
    Ironically, I was initially going to get the VST 15g but the EPs are about half the price, are touted as being more "forgiving", and were easier to get delivered to my home (I am quite time poor at the moment). I am not regretting my choice (yet) as I get the impression is that both baskets are good, just different. I'll let you know if that changes!


    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman View Post
    Agreed. In 95% of my experience with this issue with any basket, it's an issue with dose and/or grind. In general, too fine.

    What it's not is another excuse to shitecan EP HQ baskets- again nor flog on behalf of others expensive very special treatment baskets. What happened to the plug for a Vario grinder? Surely he needs one of them as well to solve his problem?

    zeezaw, my advice is to master what you have rather than look for some holy grail which likely does not exist.
    Thanks, I'm working on it. I have to say that although I just got this setup I've already been tempted to upgrade, but then said to myself "my setup is at least ok" and I really need to learn to get the best out of it before I even think about upgrading. I'm stubborn like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    However, you do essentially say too fine and too short = trouble, which is what I was getting at above, and is what Zeezaw is working through.

    Zeezaw, let us know how you're going with things, work with that basket a little longer (maybe also try some fresher beans) before throwing more money at it.
    Sure thing. Today's update:

    Shot 1 I ran by colour and with grind setting 4. instead of hitting "1 cup" I went manual and ran the shot longer. The result was a big mess as the puck was soaked and stuck to the shower screen. I ran the shot into 2 cups and it tasted a bit watery, into the sink it went.

    At this point I opened a new bag of beans, roasted on 4/May. I know I am only making it harder on myself by changing coffee/baskets/etc while trying to improve, but such is the nature of home use (and not wanting to waste coffee).

    For shot 2 I coarsened the grind to setting 6 and again ran the shot by colour, which yielded 37g. This time the puck looked much drier from the top. It didn't quite knock out cleanly but it looked like a step in the right direction. The shot was quite "citrusy", which I didn't expect from the espresso blend (tasting notes: caramel sweetness, poached fruits, chocolate finish). It wasn't bad, just different to the shots I've been getting previously—but maybe I've been doing it wrong all along. There was slight astringent quality to it so I think it can still improve.

    For my next shot I think I will keep the grind at 6 and dose a bit higher, I believe there's still some room in the basket. Reading other threads I get the idea that the shower screen is quite high on this machine, so that may be a contributing factor here.

  16. #66
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    Look at commercial link removed as per Site Posting Policy and note the holes do not go anywhere near the edge of the basket. What a strange coincidence, that is the area where the flow is effectively zero and the grounds persist.
    That's just so much rubbish mate...

    I've been using a variety of ridged and ridgeless baskets over many years and none of them have perforations that go all the way out to the edge of the bottom of the basket.
    In NO case have I experienced what the OP has described because I pay attention to the basics of Grind, Dose, Distribution and Tamping; in no particular order of importance. Fully support what Al and Chris have written...

    Mal.
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  17. #67
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeezaw View Post
    Very helpful comments here, thanks. I feel kind of bad about hijacking this thread but please bear with me...



    To be honest, this was my first thought as well since even the SB baskets have holes closer to the edges. But many people on this forum and others get good results from the EP baskets so my feeling is that with enough tweaks to my technique I should be able to get good results.

    My shower screen is 45mm across the holes and the tamper is flat with rounded edges and is not a great fit, if I'm honest.



    Ironically, I was initially going to get the VST 15g but the EPs are about half the price, are touted as being more "forgiving", and were easier to get delivered to my home (I am quite time poor at the moment). I am not regretting my choice (yet) as I get the impression is that both baskets are good, just different. I'll let you know if that changes!




    Thanks, I'm working on it. I have to say that although I just got this setup I've already been tempted to upgrade, but then said to myself "my setup is at least ok" and I really need to learn to get the best out of it before I even think about upgrading. I'm stubborn like that.



    Sure thing. Today's update:

    Shot 1 I ran by colour and with grind setting 4. instead of hitting "1 cup" I went manual and ran the shot longer. The result was a big mess as the puck was soaked and stuck to the shower screen. I ran the shot into 2 cups and it tasted a bit watery, into the sink it went.

    At this point I opened a new bag of beans, roasted on 4/May. I know I am only making it harder on myself by changing coffee/baskets/etc while trying to improve, but such is the nature of home use (and not wanting to waste coffee).

    For shot 2 I coarsened the grind to setting 6 and again ran the shot by colour, which yielded 37g. This time the puck looked much drier from the top. It didn't quite knock out cleanly but it looked like a step in the right direction. The shot was quite "citrusy", which I didn't expect from the espresso blend (tasting notes: caramel sweetness, poached fruits, chocolate finish). It wasn't bad, just different to the shots I've been getting previously—but maybe I've been doing it wrong all along. There was slight astringent quality to it so I think it can still improve.

    For my next shot I think I will keep the grind at 6 and dose a bit higher, I believe there's still some room in the basket. Reading other threads I get the idea that the shower screen is quite high on this machine, so that may be a contributing factor here.
    You're getting closer. Citrus-y might indicate sourness - which itself indicates under-extraction (that is, not enough coffee solids/solution has been carried out with your water), so slowing that baby down a little is a good idea. Hit that grind middle point of '5' and keep the same dose and see what happens, or increase the dose slightly (as you plan to).

    Sticking to the shower-screen isn't necessarily bad. Obviously this time you got undesirable flavours, but sometimes my puck sticks to the screen too. The pressure release has just created a suction seal. Hover your basket under the grouphead again and briefly activate the pump, and it will plop out again into the basket. However, if for example your puck had split in half (as in half the puck stuck to the screen, and the bottom half didn't) that's an issue.
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  18. #68
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    Ok, I think I've got this.

    I was stubbornly resisting going above 20g as that's what I was getting good results with in the Sunbeam basket and I thought "why should I have to go higher than that on a 14g-18g basket"? Well let me tell you, what I got was many pucks stuck to the shower screen and the ring at the bottom of the basket as shown in my photo above. I knew from this forum and other resources that this pointed to under-dosing but for some reason I stuck to my ways for a week or so.

    Then I received my $10 precision scales from eBay so I was finally able to properly weigh my dose and really try to crack this (previous scale has a precision of 2g). Long story short, it turns out that the EM7000 really wants at least 22g in this basket, I think due to the high shower screen. The puck is now falling out cleanly with a flick of the wrist, and the coffee's good too.

    ep double basket.jpg

    No doubt there is room for improvement yet, but I'm already itching to try out the EP 18g-21g basket for a bit more punch in my milk-based coffees. Thank you to all who contributed!

  19. #69
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Nice work! Glad you're essentially there! The 'overdose' thing largely is a universal experience, glad you sucked it up and had a crack at it anyway.

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