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Thread: e-61 brewing tips....

  1. #51
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Yeah, certainly is a handy little tool. Certainly pay a bit for a custom stainless fitting like that though - I think I payed about $130 for the whole kit (including a high quality digital thermometer) delivered express from the states (2 days!). Worth it though I think, especially when your not handy enough to make a bodgo one yourself... I may have said too much already though, and I accept in advance if my posting needs to be moderated ::)

  2. #52
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Nice looking machine mate, Heres a pickie of one of mine.

    Ray.




    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?action=download;file=DSC03829.JPG

  3. #53
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    No, its alright mate..... I dont know of anyone retailing these kits in Oz (yet). They do look the goods though and very well made,

    Mal.

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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Sammus
    firstly where did you get that thermometer thingy? And do you find that you can alter the temperature much via cooling flushes, etc

    And: you said your shot taste was under par and at a brew temperature of 92 C.... In what way was it under par? How would you describe it? And how do you decide on what temperature to brew with for which beans?

  5. #55
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMac link=1167622442/45#53 date=1199825818
    Sammus
    firstly where did you get that thermometer thingy? And do you find that you can alter the temperature much via cooling flushes, etc

    And: you said your shot taste was under par and at a brew temperature of 92 C.... In what way was it under par? How would you describe it? And how do you decide on what temperature to brew with for which beans?

    Theres a guy Eric S on the Home Barista forums who had a fitting custom designed by swagelok to attach a thermometer or thermocouple or pressure guage to the E61 groups access hole.

    Plenty of info at http://www.home-barista.com/forums/monitoring-brew-temperature-e61-and-silvia-t1 352.html , along with a link to his "website" (I say this, but its more just a list of files) with a few files to download, including any contact and ordering information etc...

    I can post some more photos if you want, let me know.

    Its easy to alter brew temp by altering the length of the flush. The under par shots were a while ago and it turned out to be a SO I wasnt particularly fond of - it was just boring tasting... As far as which temp to brew at, well thats personal taste to an extent - so trial and error :)

    Dennis, after Mals reassurance it was OK to post this, I copy and pasted most of it from the PM I sent you and only just noticed the silly typos :-[ and to think Im meant to be an academic! ;D

  6. #56
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Hi all
    I was given a gift certificate for a Barista course for xmas and went on it this morning. It was very interesting and informative but it raised some questions.
    The course was given on push button professional machines with 2 group handles and it was aimed at people wanting to be certified to tafe level.

    During the course it was stated that it should take about 3 sec for the espresso pour to start and that for a double group handle it should produce 60ml in 30 sec, the other variable being that the dosage was 14gm. I guess this being recommended for a professional cafe setup.

    I have an ECM Giotto and am trying to adjust my grinder as it hasnt been done in a while. I dose about 16 - 18gm and the pour starts generally about 5 - 6 seconds but i generally produce the 60ml of espresso incl the crema in about 23 sec not 30.

    If i dont include the crema then it is about 24 - 25 sec as i get about at least 1cm of crema.

    If i leave it for the full 30sec then my "coffeeparts" measured shot glass overflows.

    Having said all this at the end of my adjustments to get the above settings i had a smooth espresso.

    What should i be more worried about?
    The time it takes to start the pour, size of the dose or making sure i get the 60ml in the 30 seconds.

    Also does the 60ml include the crema or not?

    Hope someone can advise.

    Mal

  7. #57
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    I cant advise on much of it, but the preinfusion mechanism on E61 groups (eg your Giotto) means the pour wont start for a bit longer than what is normal on a non-e61 machine.

    That, and the "golden rule) (60ml/30sec) is merely a ballpark - doesnt have to be exact. My 60ml shots include crema and if you let them sit for a minute they near halve in size. And thats using a dose closer to 20g rather than 14g. Dunno why this is, but it sure doesnt get any complaints, maybe some of the more experiences users can comment on that for us both :)

  8. #58
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    A former Australian barista champion that I know told me that up to 8 seconds was OK (they know I have an E61 group).

    As Sammus said, the golden rule is ballpark.
    Colour is more important.
    If the pour starts to blonde at 20 secs you stop it.
    You then probably still have a good coffee.
    If you let it continue you wont.

    If you want to try get it perfect, then fine up the grind just a tiny bit more.

    I count the crema.

  9. #59
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1167622442/45#57 date=1200145955
    A former Australian barista champion that I know told me that up to 8 seconds was OK (they know I have an E61 group).

    As Sammus said, the golden rule is ballpark.
    Colour is more important.
    If the pour starts to blonde at 20 secs you stop it.
    You then probably still have a good coffee.
    If you let it continue you wont.

    If you want to try get it perfect, then fine up the grind just a tiny bit more.

    I count the crema.
    One question - do you count your 25 to 30 seconds from when you lift your lever so to speak, or from 8 to 10 seconds later when the first signs of the pour start?
    Im assuming from when the lever is lifted, seems to be working for me.

  10. #60
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    I dont count pre-infusion. I start counting from the point where the pressure ramps up to maximum.

    On the domobar preinfusion is ~7 seconds so I try to get the shot to 33-35 seconds from when I lift the lever.

  11. #61
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    I count mine from the lever lift, dont know which way is the right way (if there is one), Im happy with my results though :P

  12. #62
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Something Ive been wondering about but never seem to read anywhere... With a single boiler machie like the silvia, it has been recommended to switch on the machine anywhere from 30 minutes to 45 minutes before brewing. With a E61 HX, is that still necessary or does it take longer or shorter for the preheating phase?

  13. #63
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Still necessary.
    I aim for a minimum of 30 minutes but with mine on a timer its usually an hour before I make my breakfast coffee and its well and trully warmed up by then.

  14. #64
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    TG, a questions on preheating, wont that result in brew water temp that might be too hot seeing as HX machines tend to get hot when "idle" for too long?

    Also, Ive been doing a bit of reading on HX and E61 groups and I got a bit confused. According to an article in Wholelattelove on how the E61 works, it says the lever has 3 positions, up, middle and down. Up activates the pump, middle deactivates the pump and engages the piston and down activates the pressure release... The article goes on to say that durnig the brew process, you push the lever up to activate the pump and that does a pre-infusion as well. When a bit of coffee comes out, you then press the lever into the middle position which then gets the piston to force the brew water under pressure through the coffee for the shot proper. After that, you push the lever down to depressurise the head.
    However, looking at videos of shots being pulled on the isomac tea and expobar brewtus on youtube, there seems to be only 2 positions, up to brew and down to depressurise.... And during the brew, the pump is going. There doesnt seem to be a middle position.
    Whats the explanation for this?

  15. #65
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Yes it gets too hot after an hour but a 100ml flush is all thats needed to bring it back to where you want it.

    I havent figured out the 3 positions yet.
    I fiddled with it the other day.

    Down = Off.
    Up = On
    Middle = Pump Off / 3 way valve closed.

    When you push the lever back to the off position the 3 way opens and relieves the pressure.

    So I suppose you could "Up" then "Middle" to pre-infuse.
    Then "Up" to brew.
    Followed by "Down" to finish.

  16. #66
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    The brain box controls the pre-infusion anyway, theres no need to use the middle posi. The only time I use the middle postiion is when Im back flushing and I want the pressure to go into the drip tray without it blasting out (as the pump is disengaged) and I can see the colour of the water better (to see if theres any browness).

  17. #67
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    So you brew with the pump on, not in the middle position... Which seems to conflict with the wholelattelove article which suggests that the top is for pre-infusion and the middle for brewing.

  18. #68
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    If you stick it in the middle, the pump isnt activated - so youll just end up with a soggy puck and an 8 minute pour/drip.... Ill try and find that WLL article. Note as well a lot of these machines overseas at O/S spec, not aussie spec... not that that position of the lever should make a difference. Someone please correct me if Im wrong as Ive not actually tried that out (leaving it in the middle), but as far as I know the middle posi is as noted above, and again with TGs comments.

  19. #69
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Article is here

    Say, how do you replace a link with the wwws with an underlined description or "here"?

  20. #70
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Quote Originally Posted by NewToEspresso link=1167622442/60#68 date=1215914222
    Article is here: http://www.wholelattelove.com/articles/e61_brew_group.cfm

    Say, how do you replace a link with the wwws with an underlined description or "here"?
    You mean like this?

    Click here

    put square brackets around the below

    url=http://www.google.com.au]Click here[/url

    Cheers


  21. #71
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    I just tried to modify the previous post with the square bracket thing but it doesnt seem to work...

  22. #72
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Went to the help section and found it... now I gotta find out how to do it with "here" underlined... Thanks PhilMac

  23. #73
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    No Problem,

    Like this?

    Click here

    Cheers (add the square brackets)

    url=http://www.google.com.au]Click here[/url

    edit: the page picked up the underline tags already [u] etc

  24. #74
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Hi NTE, Renzo at Di Bartoli at my training for the VBM Super Leva yesterday used the middle position for backflushing: it allows the chemicals mixed with water sitting in the blind filter to ooze and expand their way backwards up the group head down into the drip tray without any pump pressure/water flow.

    Having seen this occur on the VBM, it drips extremely slowly and I dont think that it could possibly have sufficient use as a pre-infusion at all on this machine - if theres even any water being released at all (I think its just the chemical expansion forcing the solution back up the pipes?).

    I was under the impression that the preinfusion is automatically part of the brewing process when the lever is fully up/on.

    Im brand new to this machine, so someone with more experience could probably confirm/deny my assumptions.

  25. #75
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman link=1167622442/0#0 date=1167622441
    Hi all,

    Dosing and the shot:
    Firstly, you need to get a consistent dosing technique. With a Giotto, I tap the (double) pf on the bench a few times as I fill to settle off the coffee. Make a small mound of coffee and brush off using a straight edge- or even the side of your index finger to get a totally full basket. Then, just sit your (heavyish) tamper on the coffee to settle it, fill and brush off again.... and then tamp to 15kg or thereabouts. This will enable you to get your dosing consistent. If you find that the pf is hard to load, youre overdoing it- back off just a fraction buy altering your technique a little but do so consistently. Whatever you do MUST be repeatable.

    Run a shot to see how things are going. 30ml in approx 25 sec pour time is a good starting point. Check the puck to see that it is not wet and sloppy- if it is, your dose is poor and the coffee will be bad. If you see holes in the puck, these are channels and will usually result in an unsatisfactory shot.


    Chris
    Chris

    A point of clarification. When you say 30ml in 25sec out of the double PF, do you mean a total of 60ml (30ml each side) or a total of 30ml?

  26. #76
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Quote Originally Posted by BobT link=1167622442/60#74 date=1219237239
    A point of clarification. *When you say 30ml in 25sec out of the double PF, do you mean a total of 60ml (30ml each side) or a total of 30ml?
    Im not Chris, but yes you are correct 60ml total from a double filter basket, or 30ml from a single.

  27. #77
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Quote Originally Posted by BobT link=1167622442/60#74 date=1219237239
    Chris

    A point of clarification. *When you say 30ml in 25sec out of the double PF, do you mean a total of 60ml (30ml each side) or a total of 30ml?
    Hi Bob- Yes, were talking per shot- so approx 60 ml from your double will give you a good starting flow rate. Ultimately though, let your palate be the judge...

    Chris

  28. #78
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    I have a couple of questions :

    1. In theory, does grinding coffee into a damp filter affect a shot? (ie, after a cooling flush its damp). Should it be dried first?


    2. How snug should a tamper fit? Mine is about 0.5mm too small. Im getting partial blonding after about 20 seconds (not counting preinfusion) ..could that be due in part to uneven tamping pressure around the edges?

    Thanks for any help! ;D

  29. #79
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    1. I dont know. I was always told to make sure the basket was dry. When my machine ran hot I did the cooling flush with the group handle off so I could see when the water had stopped spitting steam.

    2. Probably. Or it could be the grind is too course. If you dont find channelling its probably the latter.

  30. #80
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    If your basket is damp, wouldnt you get bits of coffee lumping together before you pull the shot? It may or may not lead to an uneven pull.

    In any case, I believe you should do the cooling flush just before you pull your shot, with your portafilter out, dosed, tamped and ready. The idea of a cooling flush with a HX is purge the water that got too hot sitting there when the machine is idle.

    About the side channeling, maybe you should try tamping north south east west and see if that reduces the blonding?

  31. #81
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Quote Originally Posted by 56444A52535A3D0 link=1167622442/79#79 date=1283328875
    If your basket is damp, wouldnt you get bits of coffee lumping together before you pull the shot? It may or may not lead to an uneven pull.

    In any case, I believe you should do the cooling flush just before you pull your shot, with your portafilter out, dosed, tamped and ready. The idea of a cooling flush with a HX is purge the water that got too hot sitting there when the machine is idle.

    About the side channeling, maybe you should try tamping north south east west and see if that reduces the blonding?

    And dont tap too hard if at all to dislodge loose grinds on the edge of the basket.

  32. #82
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Thanks for your tips, I am new to this coffee adventure and would appreciate all good tips on how to perfect my shots.

    I have just purchased a Brand new Giotto Premium Plus with a Compak G3 Grinder. My previous machine was a MOKA with a build in Grinder.

    Any futher advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Regards Chris

  33. #83
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Quote Originally Posted by 07213C3C233621530 link=1167622442/81#81 date=1287660756
    Thanks for your tips, I am new to this coffee adventure and would appreciate all good tips on how to perfect my shots.

    I have just purchased a Brand new Giotto Premium Plus with a Compak G3 Grinder. My previous machine was a MOKA with a build in Grinder.

    Any futher advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Regards Chris
    Gday Chris.... :)

    Id reckon your vendor should be the first port of call if you need help with any aspect of machine operation. You didnt get a basic home-barista session when you bought the machine, eh? Most of our Site Sponsors will throw this in as part of the deal when you pick the machine up... :-?

    Mal.

  34. #84
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Thanks Mal, the vendor did give me a basic home-barrista course and has left an open invitation to call in a receive further lessons, but I live approximately 70 klms from where his shop is and find that to far just to pop in a do a couple of shots. I always seem to do good shots in front of Roger but when I try it at home the end result is not the same. I find it hard to determine what adjustements to make on the grinder. I follow what roger told me, if the shot starts in two to three seconds and the flow is *to watery, then the grind is too course, adjust the grinder finer. Anyhow I am sure with practise and about ten kilos of beans I will improve.

    Kind Regards Chris [smiley=dankk2.gif]

  35. #85
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    dont be scarred to waste a few kg of beans, seems wasteful and maybe a few $$$ but doing shot after shot really gets you used to the variables a bit quicker

    when ever i give someone a bit of a lesson, i just get them to keep making shots.

    they all say " i am wasting your beans"

    thats just the way it is, no getting around it i reckon *and they get to see the change in pour when we change the variables (tamp , grind , dose) and discuss why etc

    you have invested in a really good machine, time and beans will result in a fairly consistent pour :)

    by Roger is that Supreme roasters?

  36. #86
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Theres really no need to plough your way through Kilos of beans to try to get a decent pour happening consistently.

    Probably the most difficult aspect of learning good technique with espresso machines, is getting the dose correct each and every time. So long as you have a quality grinder, great coffee and a half decent Tamper then youre well on your way.

    Have a look through these video How-To tutorials on the ECA website. They are probably the next best thing to having a personal barista Tutor....http://www.espressocompany.com.au/how-to.htm

    All the best mate :)
    Mal.

  37. #87
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Hey Chris

    Looking forward to catching up with you for the follow up session on Monday.

    Feel free to bring your grinder in or alternatively use one of our Compak touchs on the bench. Im confident with a few further tweaks on technique we will have yours shots pouring beautifully like we did on the bench initially and many a gorgeous coffee at home. *

    Looking forward to seeing you again soon.

    Roger

    Mal... Thanks for posting a great resource. *:)

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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Thanks for your tips maheel, yes the vendor was Roger at Supreme roasters. I did a fair bit of research before I selected Supreme Roasters and I was not disapointed. Roger is a very fair and well informed person who pointed me in the right direction for a machine to suit my needs. I originally had a ceiling of $2000 that I wanted to spend, but I could not get my eyes of the Giotto Rocket Premium Plus. His training is exemplary, its just me, must be my age.

    Kind Regards Chris [smiley=thumbsup.gif]

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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Thanks again Mal, those Videos are great viewing.

    Kind Regards Chris

  40. #90
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    Re: e-61 brewing tips....

    Thanks Roger, I will bring in my grinder. Thanks for your patience and excellent follow up training as promised.

    Kind Regards Chris

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    thanks for sharing

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