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Thread: New Sunbeam Torino triple thermoblock

  1. #51
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    Imho you'd be a turkey to pay $2000 for this over a Vbm jnr

  2. #52
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    I can't see how any plastic appliance which will ultimately end up at the tip is worth much more than $1k.

    I'd bet Sumbean are landing these for $400-500 max. They're taking the pi$$.
    Last edited by TC; 2nd December 2015 at 10:44 AM.
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  3. #53
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    They're taking the pi$$.
    Yep, all the way to the bank.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntsoftcoffee View Post
    similar to those made by ECM (Professional German Brand, double price); and it is the look that pulled me in for a trial.
    So you mean similar in looks only? Is this just because of the exposed group head? In that case it would also be similar to VBM, Rocket, Profitec, Bezzera, La Nuova Era, Isomac and other prosumer espresso machines. So basically that confirms they've copied a design simply for the purposes of aesthetics.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntsoftcoffee View Post
    I have tested this machine at Harvey Norman Bondi few days back. It's very cool looking machine, functions exactly what its supposed to, but does not have a Wow impression to me.

    the gauge clicked at 12 to 13 bar (in the red area). The coffee comes out, however not as thick as expected the result was OK but not fantastic.
    The steamer on this Torino machine can be adjust in term of dryness....but it use the same mechanical part in most of Sunbeam coffee machine. It may look like a dial switch where people think they can adjust the how strong the steam is by turning it more/less. Well, it is appeared to me just purely switch ON/OFF. This is disappointment to me, my old Sunbeam 10 years before did just exactly that. Giving circumstance that this machine is out to compete with Bellevue top of the line, this is a step back; the steam level in Breville does adjust the current of the steam stream.


    The quality of coffee wise, ECM is better (quite gap there); Breville BES 920 will be the next in line. (I have included the ECM here as the look of Sunbeam new machine is exactly look like ECM, they may try to simulate here). I have opened Sunbeam, Breville and ECM machine, the inside part of Sunbeam and Breville have nothing comparing to ECM but they do last long enough. Again, sadly, the quality of parts used in Sumbean are not that great. Thus, I do have reluctance to favour the new Sunbeam; as haven't open it yet.
    I've taken the liberty of highlighting what seem to be the key points from someone that has actually tested this machine (admittedly just once). It's doesn't sound great really. In reality it's probably only marginally better than EM4820 that I've got at work that I picked up for $13 at the local auction house.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    So you mean similar in looks only? Is this just because of the exposed group head? In that case it would also be similar to VBM, Rocket, Profitec, Bezzera, La Nuova Era, Isomac and other prosumer espresso machines. So basically that confirms they've copied a design simply for the purposes of aesthetics.
    Not even copied the design LeroyC, made to look like an E61 group head, but it ain't, far from it.

    Bit like the Jeep these guys built
    jeep.jpg
    Good effort, but, it ain't a Jeep.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Not even copied the design LeroyC, made to look like an E61 group head, but it ain't, far from it.

    Bit like the Jeep these guys built
    jeep.jpg
    Good effort, but, it ain't a Jeep.
    I had a laugh! Yeah it's almost that bad. It's a fairly cheap and cynical cash grab.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    .... and cynical cash grab.
    I'm not so sure... I just don't see how Sunbeam could expect them to sell... unless via non-standard sales eg via credit card points to the uneducated or as 'a bonus' from the retailer for a customer buying a premium fridge, oven, toaster...

    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    I can't see how any plastic appliance which will ultimately end up at the tip is worth much more than $1k.
    If they do 'sell' $1k might be the actual price (+ $grinder)

  9. #59
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    I'm sure they're capitalising on Christmas. New product, no significant reviews other than paid opinion pieces, sell it at a premium, let HN and other places push it hard, then drop the price into 2016.

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    Fair enough. Sometimes I forget how easily some people are willing to drop $1.5k+. Still I reckon most of those buyers will be more attracted by fully-auto rubbish. This 'pretty' Sunbeam is overpriced as it stands but, if the 6910/7000 is anything to go by, should still be quite capable of half-decent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    I'm really not sure you could compare this to an ECM...

    Unless you wanted to make "Part 2" of the Comedy....,

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    I'm sure they're capitalising on Christmas. New product, no significant reviews other than paid opinion pieces, sell it at a premium, let HN and other places push it hard, then drop the price into 2016.
    Yes- My guesstimate of landed price was significantly more than a story I heard once about the landed price of the BDB.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm predicting that we'll see substantial discounts on these in due course.

    I'm yet to see thermoblock steam that wasn't a compromise. In theory, they could be able to get espresso close to ok, but who knows?

    Nevertheless, once this stuff ends up at the tip, many make tracks to humble establishments like ours and purchase something which will last. I'm thankful for that.
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  13. #63
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    New Sunbeam Torino triple thermoblock

    I was just in Harvey Norman here in NZ and was spotted the Torino. I haven't seen any press about it over here so was a bit surprised to see it. No doubt there's been some magazine ads or something.
    I agree that it's a fairly nice looking machine, it was actually better in the flesh than I expected. To the uninitiated it would definitely have some wow factor. But even with my limited experience I could see past this facade and I can't see that it would be substantially better than the EM7000. There are a few nice touches like the rubber foot on the bottom of the portafilter to sit on the edge of a bench for tamping. The drip tray is a decent size as is the cup warmer.
    Obvious negatives were that the hot water arm is sort of in the way of the manual extraction lever unless you move it right out to the side. Also it comes with DUAL WALL filter baskets!! AAAND a crema enhancer!!!! WTF?!! Thankfully these can be swapped out, but still....? And as you'll see, normal retail here is $2500, but it's currently 'on sale' for $2200!!
    Anyway, here's a real life photo-

    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1449097529.163222.jpg

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    The thing for me that stands out is the insane price. If they had just brought it to market as a $799 rrp appliance alternative to a prosumer machine, then I would probably be recommending it to friends looking for a new machine at that price point instead of poking fun at it.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melbroaster View Post
    The thing for me that stands out is the insane price. If they had just brought it to market as a $799 rrp appliance alternative to a prosumer machine, then I would probably be recommending it to friends looking for a new machine at that price point instead of poking fun at it.
    They had an EM6910/EM0450 package next to it, 'on sale' for $799. The EM7000 on the same shelf was 'on sale' for $999 I think.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    They had an EM6910/EM0450 package next to it, 'on sale' for $799. The EM7000 on the same shelf was 'on sale' for $999 I think.
    I'd guess at least part of the intention is to drive sales of the cheaper machines - bit like the $400 bottle of wine on the restaurant wine list... suddenly $100 doesn't seem so much
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    The shot on the video was what I would see from a Nespresso though I am sure you could get a better shot if you try. Testing in a store is very hit and miss if the coffee is poop.
    Keeping it short :-)
    As an espresso drinker, I would save the money and get a Nuova Simonelli. It's whats in the cup that matters.

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    I saw one in HN yesterday while looking for a blender, took me by surprise. The conversation (with myself) went like this....
    What, they sell E61s now??? What the heck is a Torino (looks closer) oh....it's a Sunbeam.
    I then pulled out the pf to look at the group/shower screen and realised they've just taken their already flimsy group and put a shiny chrome cover over it. It's not even one piece, if memory serves me correctly the lower part of the group head that engage with the tabs of your of basket is just screwed on. You've probably already guessed but it's not a commercial 58mm pf either.
    I guess they're targeting it at people who see real E61 machines and think this is the same thing, I just hope they realise they can buy the real thing for similar money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by prloring View Post
    I saw one in HN yesterday while looking for a blender
    What, they sell E61s now??? What the heck is a Torino (looks closer) oh....it's a Sunbeam.
    If you ask anyone in HN to show you an E61 they disappear out the back to dig out their UBD!!!
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    This is just plain fraud! I think Sunbeam have been nudging the line for a while with their "Cafe Series" (and terrible after-sales service), but this is just beyond the pale. Taking $2200 off some puffed-up idiot with money to burn is one thing, but some of the hopeful buyers will have saved their hard-earned cash for a long time to afford anything in this price class and then get this pile of cr@p. Society should be better at protecting the gullible.

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    When I was in a HN store I had a sales person show me how to use it. It looks very cool and just like a E61. I was however not that impressed and the coffee looked pretty ordinary whilst pouring and tasted the same. They assured me that the coffee was fresh as it was just bought in by a rep from another coffee company. It had a roast on date of 2weeks ago.
    the thing that struck me most was, how HOT the machine was to touch. I feel I could easily burn myself just by touching the machine. Is this normal or was this a fault?? Seemed pretty dangerous but I am not that familiar with these kinds of machines. Has anyone else noticed this?

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffeeismylifeblood View Post
    It looks very cool and just like a E61.
    Maybe so, but you wouldn't pay $10,000 for a fake rolex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coffeeismylifeblood View Post
    I feel I could easily burn myself just by touching the machine.
    That's one design "feature" of the E61 they have nailed, my partner is forever burning herself on our BFC!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    I can't see how any plastic appliance which will ultimately end up at the tip is worth much more than $1k.

    I'd bet Sumbean are landing these for $400-500 max. They're taking the pi$$.
    I totally agree. I was really hesitant buying the Breville Dual Boiler but once I saw it on offer for under a grand I thought it was worth the risk. Sunbeam seem to have totally missed the mark with the pricing of this machine. If they offered it for under $1k I would also probably recommend it to some people. At the current price I would be pointing them elsewhere!

    I'll admit it looks nice, and I haven't seen one in person, but from what I've read the value isn't there for the price they are asking.

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    Bdb is under $1k ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melbroaster View Post
    Bdb is under $1k ?
    During the Black Friday sales on EBay there was a deal where, after cash backs, you could get the BDB and the smart grinder for under $1k

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    Wow thats awesome. 920 or 900?

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    It's the 920, the "Dynamic Duo" package that is now for sale in most retailers.

    I was preparing to fix up my Silvia but when I saw the BDB at that price I couldn't pass it up. I honestly can't see how this Sunbeam is going to compete at its listed price.

  28. #78
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    I honestly don't think it's meant to. Sunbeam are trying to create an image of prestige with this machine - and style and cost are the two most effective ways to do that. Apple marketing 101. And I don't even think it's about competing with prosumers (despite the 'e61' stuff) but actually with where they might be losing market share to pod machines. Once they've successfully launched it to the suckers who buy it for Christmas, it'll drop in price rapidly, but with the RRP of $2k still prominently attached.

  29. #79
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    Sunbeam>Coffee machine>Prestige
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  30. #80
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    Heck just calling it as I see it :P after all, if McDonalds can be "unmcdonalds" and "fancy", sunbeam can be anything they please!

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    I agree it's probably more likely to sell more of their lower priced models. Sit this for $2k next to their lower priced offerings and they seem like they are much better value. I think you are right that we will see a big price drop after the festive season.

    I think anyone that is considering dropping $2k on a machine is going to do a bit of research first which will lead them to better machines so any the do sell at RRP will be seen as a major success

  32. #82
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    Wonder if the pod manufacturers are watching sales performance. Perhaps there's a triple thermoblock pod machine with a saturated group adornment on the horizon? 2.5k bargain.
    Edit: Manual Paddle of course

  33. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    Heck just calling it as I see it :P after all, if McDonalds can be "unmcdonalds" and "fancy", sunbeam can be anything they please!
    Not sniping at you Al, the combination of words "Sunbeam>Coffee machine>Prestige" tickled my sense of humour, very oxymoronic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnafunk View Post
    Maybe so, but you wouldn't pay $10,000 for a fake rolex.

    Couldn't agree more, though it did catch my eye and that's what I thought it was till I saw the 'sunbeam' on the front. It was a let down.

    That's one design "feature" of the E61 they have nailed, my partner is forever burning herself on our BFC!
    I would have thought this would be too dangerous for a shop floor.

  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffeeismylifeblood View Post
    I would have thought this would be too dangerous for a shop floor.
    Come on guys, you've been brain washed by the over the top OHS policies of the Aussie govt.

    It's an espresso machine, like other appliances/utensils in the kitchen, it gets hot, and things that get hot can burn ya, soooo, don't touch the hot bits, easy, bit of common sense and user awareness called for here.

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    After a while you'll get used to the e61 burns and they'll actually feel nice :P

  37. #87
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    They still sell kettles in department stores. Granted...I guess..they don't demonstrate them, but I'd also assume (hope) that any espresso machines set up for demo are done so in a controlled environment (i.e. in a dedicated space rather than wedged in between the Barbie dolls and selfie sticks).
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  38. #88
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    I'm trying to understand this, I really am.

    I'm a clumsy old guy, been using an E61 machine for a lot of years, I never burn myself, never.

    The group head gets hot, don't touch it.

    Perhaps if your accident prone, buy yourself a Giacomo Blackimo machine.
    http://creativity-online.com/work/ne...epiphany/43977
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  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyeba View Post
    After a while you'll get used to the e61 burns and they'll actually feel nice :P
    Love bites

  40. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Not sniping at you Al, the combination of words "Sunbeam>Coffee machine>Prestige" tickled my sense of humour, very oxymoronic.
    No worries here man!

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    They still sell kettles in department stores. Granted...I guess..they don't demonstrate them, but I'd also assume (hope) that any espresso machines set up for demo are done so in a controlled environment (i.e. in a dedicated space rather than wedged in between the Barbie dolls and selfie sticks).
    Nice ladies often offer samples of hot food products in our local super markets, they usually heat em up in a small electric frying pan, those things will bite ya.

    Most of us also use BBQ's from time to time, we quickly learn the hot plate/grill/lid in fact the whole device will burn ya, so we don't touch em.

    Cant believe we are even discussing this.

  42. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentBoB View Post
    I agree it's probably more likely to sell more of their lower priced models. Sit this for $2k next to their lower priced offerings and they seem like they are much better value. I think you are right that we will see a big price drop after the festive season.

    I think anyone that is considering dropping $2k on a machine is going to do a bit of research first which will lead them to better machines so any the do sell at RRP will be seen as a major success
    Yeah I don't think it was accidental that both the EM6910 and EM7000 were sitting next to the Torino on the HN shelf with 'discounted' price tags.
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    Thanks, ntsoftcoffee.

    I can see you provided a fountain of information in your post and you echo my thoughts:
    The Sunbeam more or less looks the part but is expensive (I was quoted about $1,600 unbundled) and doesn't perform as well as it trying to look.
    I liked your comparison with the Breville twin boiler, which I have and you are right in saying it will be an uphill battle for the Sunbeam to compete with the Breville.
    The Breville is a strong performer and a direct (better results) competitor to the Sunbeam in this category.
    This category of machine is aimed at the average consumer who respond well in the likes of Myer and David Jones who provide discounts to entice people into buy machines that are in a different league to what most on here would use and want.

    I also liked your comparison with ECM in which you clearly stated these are of a far superior build and something the Sunbeam was likely to have been modelled on.

    Congrats on putting up an informative post.

    Cheers,
    Mondoh

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    Tried it at HN today, first time I had seen it and was excited for a min as I was considering upgrading my old café series for a single group commercial unit . The Pre infusion feature is good, and it seems to have more pressure than my old Sunbeam, but steaming seems the same as previous EM700 and the group head is identical, in fact I put the Torino group head in a EM700 on the shelf and the were iterchangable.

    For me the thermoblock steaming is the biggest issue with the EM700 and this is no different. I was hoping that it had a boiler for steaming. The grinder is the existing model with Torino on it. The manual handle just hits a microswitch, it doesn't open a valve like the machines it is copying.
    I

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    I just happened to be at Hardly Normal today at Bondi Junction and just happened to see the new Sunbeam Torino. (I did'nt even know it existed) In any case, I will start by saying I am no expert on coffee machines. Having said that,even why my level of inexperience I also don't understand why you would go to that much trouble and not include a proper E61 Group Head. Also, why on such a machine that externally looks like a HX or double boiler machine would you use 3 thermoblocks??
    Is'nt that like BMW bringing out a new car with a carburettor instead of fuel injection? Unfortunately the machine was not plugged in so I could not terrorise/defile it but the casing looked very cheap....not stainless steel I suspect.
    It definitely does'nt look like a machine that's going to last very long. I'm really not even sure what Sunbeam were trying to do here. This machine scares me!!!!
    Oh, I just looked at choice magazine's article. Guess what, it's made in China......Oh Goodie!!
    Last edited by Jester; 26th December 2015 at 09:20 PM.

  46. #96
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    There is one (yes one) review of the Torino on the Sunbeam website. If the review was written by the designer he could (maybe) be forgiven.

    If it was written by anyone other than the designer they should be taken out the back paddock and shot.

    Here it is, in all it's nauseating glory:

    "Was looking at the German and Italian equivalents (Bezzera and ECM) and suddenly the Torino came on the market. What a find! Great build, Aussie design, auto or manual operation - draws a brilliant coffee. Best thing? Comes with belt-driven grinder (quiet), tamper, milk jug...the lot. Got a discount off RRP from the retailer too - impossible to resist. Like all good machines, takes practice and patience to get optimal coffee result, but well worth it. We love our Torino."

  47. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavisconi007 View Post
    If the review was written by the designer....."Got a discount off RRP from the retailer too"
    I'm betting that the discounts on this one will eventually be greater than actual sell price...

    I call it taking the pi$$....
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    Stay tuned........

    20151227_180430.jpg

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    So I have been using the machine today and here are my findings. I'll have a conclusion at the end if you don't want to read through the whole lot.
    Most comparisons will be against the Sunbeam EM7000 as this machine is supposedly a level above it.

    I may do a write up about the grinder but it's sort of pointless, it's a Sunbeam Precision EM0700 with Torino written on it.
    Conical burrs, belt drive. Grinds well, fairly quiet, easy to use, plenty of adjustment. Not as a good as my K3.

    *Appearance and quality*

    First impressions are good, the machine is sturdy and heavy and also quite large. Net weight of around 22kg.
    Fit and finish is excellent. The drip tray is deep and sits nicely on the base, upper cup tray and metal rods are nicely finished.
    The stainless steel body panels seem to be good quality but time will tell on that one.
    It will be a pain to keep them clean.

    The water tank is a 2.5L rather than a 3L as in the previous models but retains the EM69101 anti-calcium cartridge. It is accessible via the top of the machine.
    There is a small area next to the tank for storage of the cleaning pin, backflush disc and baskets.

    The group head looks good however once you look underneath, you find a basic Sunbeam brass collar which will inevitably wear out. The shower screens and seal appear identical to previous models.
    The group handle is the same as you find on an EM7000 and quite disappointingly needs to be locked in past 12 o'clock to ensure a good seal. This is most likely a production fault.
    The manual lever next to the group simply activates a switch as far as I can tell but it feels nice and smooth to use.
    The group head does have an LED under it for cup illumination which is a cool feature.

    The steam and hot water knobs feel great in the hand and have a smooth movement. The steam valve feels the same as the EM7000 however it moves much more easily.
    I am not sure whether the hot water is solenoid operated or a manual valve, I suspect solenoid.

    The buttons for on/off, program, 1 cup 2 cup etc. are not the best, they are small and feel somewhat flimsy to the touch. They also get physically hot once the machine has been on for a while.
    They are very similar to Breville appliance's buttons having a central button with a white illuminated ring.

    The LCD display is simple and effective. It displays "Ready" when the machine is good to go and automatically changes to the shot clock when a shot is started.
    The programming options are:

    PID control for coffee thermoblock (between 86C-98C) Default is 92C
    Adjustment of the steam pump rate (1-7) Default is 4
    Preinfusion control (P1-P4) Default is P1
    Cleaning cycle reminder (50L, 100L, 180L) Default is 100L

    I am using it on all default values for now.

    *Performance*

    From cold to Ready takes around a minute. The group head is actively heated by the third thermoblock I think. With no preheating by running water through the group, it's hot to the touch after around 5 minutes.
    I left it for 10 minutes before using.

    The noise is similar to the EM7000 but may be a little louder, basically because there are larger body panels to resonate the pump noise and mesh grilles to rattle.
    It's certainly quieter than any other vibration pump driven Italian machine that I've ever used though.

    Shot quality is better than the EM7000. Using the Precision grinder and fresh beans (roast date 18/12), the pour was a little thin.
    Swapped to my Compak K3 and immediately got a better result. This isn't exactly a surprise.

    The pressure gauge is literally useless, it's in a class of it's own how useless it is. With the needle in the green zone, the shot was blonding by 18 seconds.
    To get a good extraction of around 35-40ml in 30 seconds, the needle was sitting on 14-15 bar, basically at the edge of it's limit, deep into the red.
    They admit in the instruction manual that the gauge is only to be used as a guide but I think that it may still misinform the novice home user.

    The hot water wand is much faster than on previous models so it might actually be useful for making long blacks and tea.

    Steam performance is exceptional, it's unlike anything you have ever used before with a thermoblock.
    With the steam rate on the default of 4, it was steaming 175ml of fridge-temperature milk up to 65C within 25 seconds.
    True, this is not much different from a properly functioning EM7000 but it was just so easy to use, any novice could make good froth or microfoam with minimal practice.

    Single hole steam tip, ball joint wand, very easy to use.

    Sunbeam ditched the milk temperature sensor but retained the cool touch steam wand which is great.

    *Value for money*

    At this stage with the machine having only been on the market for around 1.5 months, it would be unwise to pay the full retail price of $2000.
    I was the first person to buy this machine from my local Harvey Norman store so clearly the price point is not sitting well with the consumer.
    I think we all knew this given the previous replies on this thread.

    It's simply not worth $2000 no matter how you look at it. Maybe I'll change my mind once I've pulled it apart to see the internal build quality but I don't think this will happen.

    As always with the first release of any high end home appliance, there will inevitably be faults that will show themselves after a while and this machine will be no different.

    *Conclusion*

    Sunbeam have built a good looking and capable machine. Shot quality is great for a domestic machine, steam performance is excellent and the general usability and feel of the machine is high quality.
    The pressure gauge is misleading for the novice user and needs to be recalibrated for future products.

    The retail price of $2000 is too high. This is reflected by, as far as I can tell, very low product sales so far. It would be inadvisable to purchase this machine at this price.

    I will update the thread later once I have checked out the machine internals. Feel free to ask any questions.

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  50. #100
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    Jun 2006
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    Great review. I had a brief look at one in the shop, for people in the know I would have thought a more traditions machine would be the way to go. Will be interesting to see how it fares sales wise and also it's longer term durability.

    Cheers
    victorgin and sprezzatura like this.

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