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Thread: New Sunbeam Torino triple thermoblock

  1. #101
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    Here are some more findings.

    The machine sputters a lot of steam and water out into the drip tray and some water through the group head when it is starting up and also whilst it is just idling.
    This is common to some extent in the other Sunbeam machines but this one is excessive.

    What I think is happening is the coffee thermoblock is heating and expelling water back through the solenoid and anti-drip valve in the group head.

    As a result, the preinfusion is not effective as the preinfusion stage basically just pumps water back in to the thermoblock and then water starts flowing from the group once extraction is underway.
    If shots are pulled consecutively or without much delay in between, the water flow is normal through the preinfusion stage.

    The only way to get around this aside from purging the group before making the shot is to set the preinfusion to the maximum setting which pumps more water through.

    This is definitely an area that will require revision by Sunbeam.

    I have had to set the steam pump rate back to 2 rather than the default of 4 (this has essentially halved the pump rate) as it was just too powerful. Using the supplied 600ml jug with milk filled to about 1cm below the start of the spout it was becoming difficult to control.

    The pump rate goes up to 7, I can't see the application for needing it to be this powerful unless you are steaming an actual barrel of milk or the cow itself.

    The delay between opening the steam tap and full power is about 3 seconds, this is after the machine has sat for ~10 minutes.
    If the steaming is consecutive, there is basically no delay.

    This is quite impressive as the main complaints that I have seen regarding thermoblocks for steaming is:

    a) They're not very powerful
    b) You need to wait for them to get to full power

    Whether this power keeps up once the machine gets a bit older remains to be seen.

    Another issue, clearance from the drip tray to the portafilter spouts is 9cm. This means that most mugs or large cups do not fit easily.
    As this machine is targeted for the domestic market where most people want mugs of drink and probably don't have low and wide cups which are more standard for high end users and connoisseurs this will probably get annoying.
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  2. #102
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    Thanks so much for going to so much trouble Noidle to explain to us some of the characteristics of this machine.

    Regards


    John

  3. #103
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    Disassembled the machine today and I now understand why they have the RRP so high.

    90% of the machine is brand new.

    Some new features include:

    -New thermoblock design. Same style of thermoblock used for the coffee and steam rather than a thermocoil for the coffee.
    -Steam thermoblock insulation
    -Full size steam pump (Ulka EP5 equivalent, this explains the impressive power)
    -Actively heated group head, this is the third thermoblock
    -Nylon tube used exclusively
    -Solenoid controlled steam tap rather than a manual valve
    -Single 3-way solenoid used to direct water flow to the group head or hot water wand
    -Exhaust solenoid mounted next to the 3-way solenoid via a nylon hose, no physical attachment to the thermoblock or group head as with previous models.

    I am disappointed that they have not fitted an OPV. It does not make sense why they haven't fitted one. Retrofitting a Breville OPV or any other inline OPV will not be difficult and will probably be something I do in the future.

    A possible potential problem is that they have used a lot of fittings with the 8mm o-ring and spring clip to hold it into place, much like on most other domestic machines. These leak over time, particularly the ones under brew pressure.
    I suspect these will start leaking eventually. Not a major problem really, cheap and easy to fix when they do wear out.

    The reason behind the smooth steam and hot water knob movement is that all they are doing is engaging a microswitch.
    Seems to be a lot of design for a simple task but it was necessary for it to look the part and it is certainly of a high quality.

    The machine components are primarily attached to what is the front of the machine as you look at it from the front. The pumps, power cord and flowmeter are attached to the base.

    The water tank compartment, which the circuit board is attached to, is large and sturdy. A bracket holds this along with the mounts for the back and sides which is affixed to the front of the machine.
    It appears to be well thought out and well built.

    I am yet to disassemble the group but that is the next task. I suspect, and I hope this is the case, the group collar (as seen in a photo on a previous post) is affixed with the two philips head screws and simply wedges in to the back of the group somehow. However they have done it, I think collar changes are going to be a lot easier than they used to be.

    thermoblocks.JPG 20151230_130645.jpg 20151230_130913.jpg pumps.JPG solenoids.JPG
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  4. #104
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    Just curious are you in the trade or just doing a teardown for fun?

  5. #105
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    Doggies breaky. Internal build says $1k.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melbroaster View Post
    Just curious are you in the trade or just doing a teardown for fun?
    I'm in the trade of machine repairs and see a lot of domestic equipment.
    This machine is probably the most significant step forward since the Breville Dual Boiler and I wanted to see how it fares.
    No way i would be doing this if i was just a consumer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Doggies breaky
    What on earth does that mean?

    I still disagree with the 2k sale price but the amount of development they appear to have put into it means they need to get their money back somehow.

  7. #107
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    For anyone that has seen the bdb internals, how does the quality of the layout compare to the photos above?

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by noidle22 View Post
    What on earth does that mean?
    Not nicely laid out

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    Not nicely laid out
    It's not like it needs to look pretty. How well laid out it is from a tech's point of view for serviceability is more important and I'd be interested to hear what noidle thinks.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Doggies breaky. Internal build says $1k.
    How do you come to this conclusion?

    Thanks noidle22 for a detailed review.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    It's not like it needs to look pretty. How well laid out it is from a tech's point of view for serviceability is more important and I'd be interested to hear what noidle thinks.
    I thought of dogs breakfast after i wrote that last post haha.

    I wonder how else they should fit 3 solenoids, 2 full size pumps, 2 thermoblocks, a circuit board, a 2.5L water tank, storage for accessories, water piping and power cables in a machine this size without it looking like this......
    I think they've done well with fitting everything in.

    From a service perspective, everything appears easily accessible once some pipes are removed.
    It may be tricky removing the complete group head, not sure how it is affixed to the front of the machine.
    As long as the group head thermoblock is reliable there should be no reason to remove the complete group anyway, all other components on the group can be serviced without needing to disassemble the whole group.

  12. #112
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    The great thing about the thermoblock is the machine is ready within a minute or so. Instead of the 5 to 7 minutes of waiting time with some broiler machine. Two thermoblock for the shower or brew head, seems to be connected to the hot water spout on the side, (similar to the other Cafe Series Models) it's meant to make the temperature more accurate like having a broiler. one thermoblock is for the steam which is similar to an EM6910 steam wand. its nice to have if you like a full control on your coffee making. still to new to find some fault on the machine. 2.5 litre water container instead of the 3.5 litre on the EM7000. Easier access for filling. Auto switch off after 30 minutes or standby mode. About the Grinder it's identical to EM0700 precision grinder just change the look or the stainless to match the coffee machine. smaller chamber so less coffee to waste when purging or changing grinds. The motor is at the back so it does not heat the beans too much as you grind. when I figure anything else I would let you guys know.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicalBean28 View Post
    The great thing about the thermoblock is the machine is ready within a minute or so. Instead of the 5 to 7 minutes of waiting time with some broiler machine. Two thermoblock for the shower or brew head, seems to be connected to the hot water spout on the side, (similar to the other Cafe Series Models) it's meant to make the temperature more accurate like having a broiler. one thermoblock is for the steam which is similar to an EM6910 steam wand. its nice to have if you like a full control on your coffee making. still to new to find some fault on the machine. 2.5 litre water container instead of the 3.5 litre on the EM7000. Easier access for filling. Auto switch off after 30 minutes or standby mode. About the Grinder it's identical to EM0700 precision grinder just change the look or the stainless to match the coffee machine. smaller chamber so less coffee to waste when purging or changing grinds. The motor is at the back so it does not heat the beans too much as you grind. when I figure anything else I would let you guys know.
    Evening MB, welcome to Coffee Snobs.

    Call me a cynic if you like, however your first post reads very much like a Sunbeam testimonial

    Not a single word of introduction, the only thing I can glean from your profile is that you have a house full of Sunbeam coffee gear, EM7000,EM0700 EM6910 EM0480 EM0500, only conclusion I can arrive at is your either a Sunbeam aficionado or there is some kind of vested interest, surely not.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagicalBean28 View Post
    The great thing about the thermoblock is the machine is ready within a minute or so. Instead of the 5 to 7 minutes of waiting time with some broiler machine. Two thermoblock for the shower or brew head, seems to be connected to the hot water spout on the side, (similar to the other Cafe Series Models) it's meant to make the temperature more accurate like having a broiler. one thermoblock is for the steam which is similar to an EM6910 steam wand. its nice to have if you like a full control on your coffee making. still to new to find some fault on the machine. 2.5 litre water container instead of the 3.5 litre on the EM7000. Easier access for filling. Auto switch off after 30 minutes or standby mode. About the Grinder it's identical to EM0700 precision grinder just change the look or the stainless to match the coffee machine. smaller chamber so less coffee to waste when purging or changing grinds. The motor is at the back so it does not heat the beans too much as you grind. when I figure anything else I would let you guys know.
    No, the machine is not actually ready after a minute. It takes at least 5 minutes for the group head to reach thermal stability, I suggest 10.

    It's got plenty of faults and to be honest, right now, you're a sucker if you bought this over a Breville Dual Boiler or paid any more than 1.5k.
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  15. #115
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    I grew weary of the lack of consistency between shots. It was becoming tedious to try and get a decent shot out of it, it wants to under or over extract all the time.

    I've removed the noise suppressor from the coffee pump and have fit an OPV of a Breville Dual Boiler. Yet again, Breville coming to the aid of the Sunbeam........
    There is very little difference in noise with the OPV as compared to the noise suppressor which is nice, I was fearing it would be too loud.

    I feel that the decision that Sunbeam made to lower the noise of the machine rather than fit an OPV indicates that their priority is not the quality of the coffee.
    This is a shame.

    There was no easy way to plumb the OPV return line into the water tank so it's going into the drip tray. Luckily it's a big tray so it doesn't need to be emptied all that frequently. Conveniently, Sunbeam used a t-piece for plumbing the drain tubes which had a spare nipple on it so I was able to drill that out and use it for the OPV return tube. It's almost like they were expecting an OPV to be fitted.

    There was no easy way to install the OPV on to the pump as it was mounted so close to the base of the machine and it couldn't be flexed in the rubber mounts far enouugh to attach the OPV. I had no other option but to cut the rubber mount. This doesn't have any effect on the operation of the pump.

    It is far easier to get a reliable shot from the machine now, as you would assume.

    I also fit a spacer under the group seal so that the handle locks in straight. It was locking in nearly all the way to the right which is generally what the older machines do when the collar has worn out but this one was brand new.
    It would be interesting to see if this problem plagues all of these models, at least of the first production run.

    I think the biggest problem I have with this machine is that it was sitting on the bench at home, next to my Dual Boiler, and I just didn't feel inclined to turn it on and make a coffee. It's not as nice an experience to use as I would have hoped.
    Now that the OPV is fitted and the handle locks in straight it will be a lot nicer to use but this certainly shouldn't be something that needs to be done on a brand new machine.

    torino 1.jpg torino 2.jpg torino 3.jpg torino 4.jpg

  16. #116
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    So BDB is still the go-to appliance option then (discounting cost which makes a BDB a no brainer)?

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    So BDB is still the go-to appliance option then (discounting cost which makes a BDB a no brainer)?
    In my opinion, yes. Even if the Torino was the same RRP as the Breville, the Breville is still a better machine.
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  18. #118
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    Wonder what happened to MagicalBean28? surely not a one post wonder.
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  19. #119
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    I can't imagine how this machine will ever appeal to any other than poorly informed people with too much money to spend.

    It's Lelit Dual boiler money, close on Domobar Junior money or if you insist on appliances, it will go close to buying 2 x BDB (including a spare for when the primary one is in service.)

    My call? I reckon the torino will either be discounted sustantially (My guess cafe series $$) or it will flop.
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  20. #120
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    The machine had been on the shelf at the retailer for around 1.5 months when I bought it and it was the first one that they had sold so as we suspected, the price is just too high.
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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    I can't imagine how this machine will ever appeal to any other than poorly informed people with too much money to spend.

    It's Lelit Dual boiler money, close on Domobar Junior money or if you insist on appliances, it will go close to buying 2 x BDB (including a spare for when the primary one is in service.)

    My call? I reckon the torino will either be discounted sustantially (My guess cafe series $$) or it will flop.
    i was "sucked in" By Kitchen Aid (6 year ago) with their dual boiler machine. It was an expensive nightmare, only bearable because of excellent product back up.

    When you no have practical experience and "in knowledge" to judge a product , you decide on looks and price.

    You do your dough , only once !
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  22. #122
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    Hi guys - I currently have an sunbeam em6910 which I've enjoyed using over the last 6 years. After having a whinge on product review about one of their appliances sunbeam offered me a 30% discount off any product. I was thinking about buying the Torino with this which takes it down to $1399. At this price it seems ok. I am not well versed in other dual boiler machines and this is the top of my budget. Are there alternatives that are better at this price including grinder? I am a former cafe owner but have only used domestic machines for last 10 years. Any advice would be appreciated. I'm based in Sydney so would like to test any machines mentioned. Thanks!

  23. #123
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    Welcome. I think the answer(s) to your question is/are in the posts directly above (#117, #119). For less money, you can get the Breville DB.

  24. #124
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    I read those already but have they tried the Torino in comparison. Also I do like the aesthetics of the Torino. Not the most important but still part of the decision...

  25. #125
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    Is the breville the bep920?

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by thecafeninja View Post
    I read those already but have they tried the Torino in comparison. Also I do like the aesthetics of the Torino. Not the most important but still part of the decision...
    Noidle is a tech, and has pulled both the Torino and (several) BDB's apart. I think he would be as well-informed as anyone in this regard.
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  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by thecafeninja View Post
    Is the breville the bep920?
    The machine is the BES920. The BEP920 is the code for the package (BES920 + Breville Smart Grinder).....as far as I know.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by thecafeninja View Post
    sunbeam offered me a 30% discount off any product
    Hush money?

  29. #129
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    Not really since my review is up there for the world to see on productreview...nice gesture to try to restore my faith in them is how I see it.

  30. #130
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    I'm going to pop down to the cbd tomorrow to see if I can try it.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by thecafeninja View Post
    I read those already but have they tried the Torino in comparison. Also I do like the aesthetics of the Torino. Not the most important but still part of the decision...
    Love the Torino. It helps us sell real e-61 machines- the ones that don't end their 3 year lives at the tip.
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  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by thecafeninja View Post
    sunbeam offered me a 30% discount off any product
    Have you considered a nice iron?

  33. #133
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    So helpful...

  34. #134
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    Well, you haven't said thanks to anybody who did try to help you.......

  35. #135
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    Sorry Barry my comment was in relation to magnafunks comment...I do appreciate the assistance and was going to thank you...I did also send a thank-you message to noidle for his very comprehensive review.

  36. #136
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    No problem.
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  37. #137
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    Magnafunks comment was funny tho...

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by thecafeninja View Post
    Hi guys - I currently have an sunbeam em6910 which I've enjoyed using over the last 6 years...

    ...I am not well versed in other dual boiler machines and this is the top of my budget.
    I think this is the missing link. The Torino isn't a dual boiler and so it's not an upgrade for you from the em6910, just a replacement of older implementation of the thermoblock to a newer package of the same thing.

    I think the iron comment has merit. Buy another appliance you might need in the near future with your bonza 30% off, start saving toward a machine that doesn't just have the looks, and when your em6910 carks it, you can happily upgrade. If by that time the Torino has somehow miraculously proven itself, it'll be at or below your 30% off price anyway - so no harm done.

    Otherwise if you're just wanting confirmation you should get hooked into buying a Torino... Sure, go ahead, buy a Torino, tell us all about it long term for the benefit of other snobbers. It's an unproven machine, expect there to be a lot of scepticism around here (especially after Noidle's review).
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  39. #139
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    Thanks readeral...Long story but I am shifting my em6910 to another house in a few weeks time so I need to buy in the near future. Saying that I am leaning toward the breville if I can get it at a good price. I will go an check out the Torino tomorrow and will try to take some video.

  40. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by saroadie View Post
    Magnafunks comment was funny tho...
    Yes to be fair it was...but no irons until my next wedding anniversary...the wife doesn't deserve it yet
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  41. #141
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    No test machines at Myer Pitt St unfortunately- apparently the only Myer store that has a working machine is their botany store.

  42. #142
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    There was one on deck at Harvey Norman in Broadway on Monday.

  43. #143
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    For this sort of dosh, I don't know why you wouldn't get a Lelit double boiler or maybe a Vib Domobar Junior
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  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjs View Post
    For this sort of dosh, I don't know why you wouldn't get a Lelit double boiler or maybe a Vib Domobar Junior
    You may not have seen my original question but I was actually asking if there were better alternatives for $1400. The only one that was mentioned so far was the bes 920. Are those machines available for $1400?

  45. #145
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    The 920 is often on sale with grinder for less than this. Pretty sure some have said previously they got the combo for $1100-1200?

    Cheers

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by thecafeninja View Post
    You may not have seen my original question but I was actually asking if there were better alternatives for $1400. The only one that was mentioned so far was the bes 920. Are those machines available for $1400?
    Would you be willing to go ex demo? Ex Demo Lelit Dual Boiler - PL60
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  47. #147
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    The demo sounds great all the advantages with none of the problems that have been discussed in this thread.

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by thecafeninja View Post
    You may not have seen my original question but I was actually asking if there were better alternatives for $1400. The only one that was mentioned so far was the bes 920. Are those machines available for $1400?
    No, neither of those machines would normally be at the $1400 mark, but I see that that demo Lelit squeezes in at $1399! Would be a good buy

  49. #149
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    There is a p60 online for $1499 here: http://www.jetblackespresso.com.au/s...nes/#gsc.tab=0

  50. #150
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    D'oh! Sorry...was looking at the wrong price...but of course I'd then have to buy a grinder too which pushes the price up to???

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