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Thread: Bezzera BZ10 + Quamar. "Second" impressions

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    Wink Bezzera BZ10 + Quamar. "Second" impressions

    Okay... Okay... after my first impressions post on the Bezzera - see here: Midrange buying advice

    As i said, i was waiting for a few things to fall into my favour before pressing GO. So off I went to visit Paul (K Bean) this morning to pick up my shiny new Bezzera. Its a pretty and shiny box and will replace the Gaggia Baby that has served me well for over 7 years. It just the upgrade bug kicked in and wanted a brand new rig. I had a budget in mind, the Rocket Giotto just was a bit outside of it, (to use a footy term) i lowered the eyes and this little Italian was in the right area.

    Small and sleek to fit onto my coffee counter the Bezzera had the same width and height as the Gaggia, just with a bit more depth.

    Paul looked after me and partnered up the machine with a new Quamar grinder that is a great upgrade from the Breville Smart. I can't bring myself to part with the smart just yet so it'll be relegated to the Decaf and filter grinder for the time being.

    I haven't taken it through its paces yet and as i'll be fine tuning everything over the next couple of days. I'll report back with a full review in the coming days and i'll probably be more happy to field any questions on both as they will become the daily drivers from tomorrow.

    The line up

    Before pics:





    After pics:




    And one more with the bench full.





    Still need to put a shelf up to complete the area, once that is done, i'll show off the full counter space .
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by tannyboy; 30th July 2016 at 07:47 PM. Reason: more images
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    Are they Marimekko cups that I see on top of your machine? I fly Finnair sometimes and they look strangely familiar. You didn't lift them off AY90, did you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyF View Post
    Are they Marimekko cups that I see on top of your machine? I fly Finnair sometimes and they look strangely familiar. You didn't lift them off AY90, did you?
    Haha. Lift is such an unkind word.

    In flight shopping is a dangerous thing when your wife loves Scandinavian design. Was in Helsinki this time last year. Also in economy you only get the paper versions.

    And that's keen eye you have.

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    I've had quite a lot of coffee served to me in those cups. I'm pleased that they were purchased. As you say lifted has such negative connotations, but I do hear that it happens sometimes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyF View Post
    I've had quite a lot of coffee served to me in those cups. I'm pleased that they were purchased. As you say lifted has such negative connotations, but I do hear that it happens sometimes.
    Werent the only purchases too haha

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    Quote Originally Posted by tannyboy View Post
    Werent the only purchases too haha
    I purchased a model Finnair Airbus A350 as it was my first time flying on the new plane. I'm into planes. I got it to and back from Europe only to discover that I had two left wings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyF View Post
    I got it to and back from Europe only to discover that I had two left wings.
    There goes your dream of winning the chicken dance contest
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    Great review Tannyboy, love the photos...looks slick.


    Wondering if you have compared the Smart grinder vs Quamar on the BZ10?

    I have recently purchased a BZ10 also but still got a Smart Grinder, not sure if I should upgrade as it currently makes awesome coffees (for my standards anyway, I also only use fresh beans so maybe this helps too) as its a case of I don't know what I don't know I guess.

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    Thanks for the tip b, yeh Ill propably go the Macap when its time to change or when I get the upgrade bug.

    Wow that Lelit looks awesome. I Thought the BZ10 was nice and compact, this seems even more compact and more narrow I presume?

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    Hi tannyboy,
    I'd be very interested to hear further as I've set my mind on the bezzera bz10 as my first ever espresso machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbounce View Post
    Great review Tannyboy, love the photos...looks slick.


    Wondering if you have compared the Smart grinder vs Quamar on the BZ10?

    I have recently purchased a BZ10 also but still got a Smart Grinder, not sure if I should upgrade as it currently makes awesome coffees (for my standards anyway, I also only use fresh beans so maybe this helps too) as its a case of I don't know what I don't know I guess.
    Hey JBounce, I haven't compared them directly - eg. bean to bean - but the Smart grinder holds it own with the Decaf beans that runs through it. The Quamar is a peach though, easy to dial in ad the on the side timer works well (gets me within a gram or so of my intended weight)

    Not only cleaner to use than the Smart, the grinds that come out are nice and don't clump (the smart does quite a bit).

    As Paul said, if you are in no rush to upgrade stick with the Smart - i was going to but ended up finding a bit more room in my upgrade budget for a grinder. Paul packaged up a grinder along with the BZ10 and this setup will serve me well for many years.

    The Smart will stay with me until it dies, then probably consider another Quamar or M2M for decaf duties.

    Yell out if you want more info
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    Quote Originally Posted by benissimmo View Post
    Hi tannyboy,
    I'd be very interested to hear further as I've set my mind on the bezzera bz10 as my first ever espresso machine.

    Ok i think i'm in a bit of a position to give my 2 cents on the BZ10 now. Its been about 3 weeks (according to my first post in here) since I've had the machine. Again, can't praise it enough. Bang for buck i'm a big fan.

    I also have a Pesado 58.5 20g basket in here; considering i've only a 58mm tamper (will change soon) i'm not eeking out all the performance from the little rig.

    I'll try to structure my review a little bit.

    Design

    - I like the styling, a bit different than some of the standard e61 groups and I'm a fan of the look of the toggles.
    - Finish is great, solid machine and nothing rattles.
    - Stainless steel everywhere, i'm now a bit pedantic about giving it a wipe down to get rid of the streaks
    - Sizewise, perfect on my bench, any smaller would seem small. Happily fits enough cups on the cup warmer for a two person household.

    As an aside I'll be popping in an order with Leon for some lovely wooden bling for the portafilers and toggles (and tamper) to complete the kit.


    Usability/Operation

    - A bit noisy on initial start up in the morning to fill up the boiler and when its whisper quiet (in the morning) you can hear the boiler doing it's thing. Beyond minor to me as the grinder makes much more noise than either of those things.
    - Boiler gets up to pressure in about 10 minutes and the head give it another 5 minutes after its ready to go (if you need to). I generally let it heat up about 30 minutes before pulling a shot and its good to go.
    - No e61 lever, but the brew toggle is solid and easy enough to flick on and off to start the water flowing through the group.
    - The steam is dry from the 2 holed tip, the toggles are great (i think), lock it on by flicking it up and away you go. Happily would steam for a good while and pumps though a 600ml jug with ease (i'll pop in a time here tomorrow (i'll time it tomorrow for those interested)) [oodles faster than the gaggia). For the 300ml jug, its sub 15 secs i'd say, its fast.
    - The wand is pretty easy to position into place with good pivotability for the user.
    - A bit of a downer is the water tap on the other side, its a bit on the short side so you get hit by the steam coming from that if you don't direct it right. Minor, but something to take note.
    - The safety cut off when the water level is low, works quite well. Found out in the first couple of days in using it. Just stops to save the internals. Nifty little feature when you are half awake in the morning brewing and haven't checked the water levels in the tank. Keep it filled, and its a happy machine.
    - I'm sure i don't have to do it, but i flush it for a couple of seconds before locking in and pulling a shot. (force of habit)
    - Noise when pulling a shot, not that loud - when it gets up to pressure, quiets right down.

    Taste
    - Yum... some of the bean blends that i had on rotation with the gaggia taste different. More body and more... well... interesting. Could be a combo of the change of grinder too. My novice taste buds, but works well for me.

    I didn't go into the technicals as to me its a great machine with a lot going for it. For the price, its great. For my budget it and bench space it fit the bill. Sure its a not an e61 - but Bezzera seems to know what they are doing with the BZ10 The quick ready time is a great bonus to a top notch machine.


    Also for those interested, if you are after an IMS screen, the Silvia screen fits but needs a new screw (by the looks of things), i'll hit up masters/bunnings for a screw with a different head and install on the weekend. I'll report back then.
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    FYI.

    IMS screen that fits in Rancilio happily fits in the BZ10 (with a pan head screw)



    Apologies, no tripod

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    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteSzad View Post
    Oh yeah, I wish I read this before buying as it shows a 10 degree temperature range : http://www.home-barista.com/espresso...me-t19646.html
    Cant compare 110v machines to 240v ones. Every American hx thread talks about requiring a cooling shot before making espresso, only poorly set up australian hx machines need one.
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    Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    That HB link shows a 10 deg C variation in group temp, not water temp.
    And it is not even 10 deg C, closer to 5. Scale is Fahrenheit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteSzad View Post
    It's pretty annoying. I checked paperwork and this is a 1.5 year old machine from an Australian seller and not a American one. I think replacement of expensive parts after 1.5 years doesn't sound right. The water range was 7 degrees. What is normal for a bz10? Thanks for the help.
    Hello Pete,

    One of the risks of buying a second hand machine is you never know the history of how it has been looked after or not, as may be the case.

    The BZ10 is normally a very good and reliable machine with good reviews and support on this forum.

    We are an authorised Bezzera seller and service agent. If you would like us to look at your machine for you feel free to drop us a line or message

    Regards

    Antony
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    Some side by side pics:

    Nice!
    May I ask how do they compare in terms of noise when you turn them on (and the boiler fills up) and when you pull a shot?

    I am about to pull the trigger in one of these two, and I would like to now if the rest of the family would hear the machine at 6am if I use a timer to warm the machine up.

    It is a pity that the PL62 takes longer to warm up than the BZ10...
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    Quote Originally Posted by tunkejazz View Post
    I am about to pull the trigger in one of these two, and I would like to now if the rest of the family would hear the machine at 6am if I use a timer to warm the machine up.
    As for the pump kicking in at 6am....you can 'prime' the machine the night before so that it's only the element making any noise the next morning. By this I mean after the machine has cooled down for several hours - briefly turn on the machine for a few seconds and wait to see if it 'needs a drink' by virtue of the pump kicking in to fill up the boiler to the level required. When you start to hear the element come on - turn the machine off and it will be ready to go for the morning with no pump kicking in at 6am.

    Agree with K_bean's suggestion re the timer. Get one of these (I recommend the belkin wemo because you can turn the machine on when you're not even home!) and you'll never look back.

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    A little disappointed to hear this as you just suggested the bz10 to me 2 weeks ago.

    I've been pulling shots at 12 bar since I got the bz10. But after a little reading I thought they were factory set at 11-12 bar. Thought it was unusual but didn't over think it. Now I'm worried I could be damaging the pump? If I change the opv to 9 bar will I be breaking the warranty?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owlee View Post
    A little disappointed to hear this as you just suggested the bz10 to me 2 weeks ago.

    I've been pulling shots at 12 bar since I got the bz10. But after a little reading I thought they were factory set at 11-12 bar. Thought it was unusual but didn't over think it. Now I'm worried I could be damaging the pump? If I change the opv to 9 bar will I be breaking the warranty?
    Can't answer your warranty question, but I'm sure the pump is fine. Why are you worried about the pump?

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    I'm hovering at 11 for most of my shots, only hits 12 for Backflushing.

    I can probably say without hesitation, the "priming" of the BZ10 is loud-ish. granted doesn't wake my wife up at 6.30 when i flick the switch on, and we are a quiet household.

    Grinding is louder ... (again... not a peep)
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    Also as promised. With the shelves finally up too.
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    I thought the added pressure would put the pump under extra strain, like using a blind basket continuously? Could be wrong. Definitely no expert. Would be happy to hear I'm way off 😊

    Thanks Paul, just a bit stressed about making a bad decision

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    Quote Originally Posted by Owlee View Post
    I thought the added pressure would put the pump under extra strain, like using a blind basket continuously? Could be wrong. Definitely no expert. Would be happy to hear I'm way off

    Thanks Paul, just a bit stressed about making a bad decision
    The only thing that'll put undue strain on the pump is running it for too long. I'm assuming it's an EX5 so it's a 15bar pump with a max 1min cycle. So as long as you don't run it constantly for periods of time longer than one minute it'll be fine.
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    Any update yet? No word from the distributor?

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    In the days that we sold Bezzera, their techs had a habit of using loktite to glue OPVs to 12Bar.

    It was an ongoing frustration with their gear which left us set to 9Bar after our bench test whether they liked it or not and not without frequent blood and profanity. In those times, many of the adjusty bits were near on inaccessible on some of their designs.

    For mine, to say that 12Bar is normal = a cop out: i.e. we can't be bothered setting them. Does it mean that they will produce bad coffee? Hell no- but 12Bar can be a challenging drive.

    Good machines generally built like tanks, but I don't miss the frustrations, nor the hot runners.
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    In the days that we sold Bezzera, their techs had a habit of using loktite to glue OPVs
    And not just on the OPV either...

    Pretty well everything that had a thread was loaded with Loctite. Makes for an interesting exercise when trying to remove fittings from a copper boiler...

    Mal.

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    Hi all,

    We are a long time seller and service agent for Bezzera
    Like all machines they have developed over the years and what was sold three years ago is not the same machine that is sold today

    I would doubt that the distributor in Australia considers 12 bar normal for extraction pressure. With vibration pumps they have only one speed and pressure, the control of the extraction pressure is down stream of the pump through the OPV.

    Bench testing by most importers these days is a given, particularly with long and sometimes bumpy transits from Italy.

    Unfortunately now days with "drop shipping" so prevalent the second level of testing by the retailer doesn't happen, and yes sometimes a machine not up to spec slips through.

    Anyone in Melbourne can always contact us directly for Bezzera advice or repairs.

    In fact I'm still waiting for Peteszad to contact me for his complimentary assessment of his BZ10 issues??

    Cheers

    Casa Espresso
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casa Espresso View Post
    Unfortunately now days with "drop shipping" so prevalent the second level of testing by the retailer doesn't happen, and yes sometimes a machine not up to spec slips through.
    Good news Antony,

    Many need to be educated about drop shipping and what I call "box sellers": i.e. their involvement in the machine is limited to picking up the carton, hoping for the best and either loading it into a car or truck for transport. For mine, that simply doesn't cut it.

    We will not let any espresso machine leave us without a thorough bench test- regardless of what may happen at the factory/importer. We find that we make adjustments to at least 50% of what passes across our benches. Whilst manufacturers and importers may well run some sort of testing, it all too frequently does not meet our standards.

    It's great when a machine tests well, but it's no surprise when one doesn't and we have also rejected machines which passed importer testing but cannot be made to meet our standards. If heartbreak is to occur, I'd much sooner it happen to us and not the client.

    It's just another thing to be aware of when you purchase espresso gear.

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    Soo... just for my piece of mind.

    I'm hovering at 11bar at the moment for my BZ10, and get pretty good results. (first machine with a gauge)

    Should I be hovering at the 9 bar?

    Potentially a newbie question here.

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    Yeah, that's all I want to know as well tanny. I'm more than happy with what I'm pulling at the moment. But just like all of us if there's something we can do to improve our shots further, we'd jump on it. I'm more than happy to adjust to 9 bar myself just want confirmation that it won't void the warranty. Otherwise a trip to casa might be on the cards

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    Hello all,

    Have a read of this thread with regard to measuring group head pressure on an HX machine.

    Measuring Group Head Pressure on a HX machine

    There seems to be a bit of worry here from people that don't understand what the pressure gauge is showing and its relation to the pressure at the group head.

    THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

    The only true way to know the pressure at the group head is through a group head gauge. In many cases10 bar (or 11) may be 9 bar or so at the group head of an E61.

    That is why your machine should be bench tested by the retailer before it is sent out.

    Cheers

    Antony
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    Hi,
    For all the pressure related debates, I found this on youtube: m.youtube.com/watch?v=E4y4-E2aL3U
    It comes from the horses mouth, one the Bezzera sons.
    What I like is that he is not defending/selling a/his product, he just explains the engineering reasons why a higher pressure on domestic machines...
    The clip starts in German for about 30 seconds but after that is in English

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    Still worth doing a proper setup with a Scace or similar device...

    Makes a hell of difference in the cup and to say nothing about the reduction in frustration at trying to overcome the vagaries of grinding and dosing with a 12Bar head pressure...

    Mal.
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    Bezzera BZ10 + Quamar. "Second" impressions

    Hello all,
    A test like that is really not the way to measure group head pressure. The blind filter insert is only showing the pressure back at the gauge again.
    Pressure at the guage is quite often not the pressure at the group head.
    A scace device measures temperature.
    The correct way to measure group head pressure is with a group head pressure gauge , not with a blind filter back flush.
    A coffee technician or good retailer will have one of these when setting up a machine.
    Cheers

  38. #38
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    I've seen Scace devices advertised with both pressure and temperature detection...

    Scace 2.JPG

    Mal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by benissimmo View Post
    Hi,
    For all the pressure related debates, I found this on youtube: m.youtube.com/watch?v=E4y4-E2aL3U
    It comes from the horses mouth, one the Bezzera sons.
    What I like is that he is not defending/selling a/his product, he just explains the engineering reasons why a higher pressure on domestic machines...
    The clip starts in German for about 30 seconds but after that is in English
    Engineering reasons? Sounds like BS to me...
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    Engineering reasons? Sounds like BS to me...
    Yep, agree...

    Maybe it's an Italian Marketing exercise...

    Mal.
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    I get 11 bar also, mine is a 2016 model. Checked a few bz10 on youtube and some on 11 and some on 9 so more confused now. How many grams of coffee beans for a double shot on the bz10 is everyone using?

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    Just a bit of an update about the bar pressure. Contacted Anthony from Casa espresso about bench testing my bz10, he insisted on doing it complimentary (top bloke).

    Turns out 11 bar on the gauge roughly equates to 9 bar at the group head! Figured Tanny and Jbounce would be glad to hear this. And any one else worried also.

    Thanks again Antony
    Last edited by Owlee; 20th September 2016 at 07:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteSzad View Post
    I bought a used BZ10 and it was terrible from day 1. I took it to a tech and he tested it to find out water was 85-92 degrees which is bad for any machine. He pushed up the temperature so it now runs bettet but still pretty bad. He said I need to pull shots just after the heater switches off to get near 95. That sux. Is there anything I can do to improve this or is this just what BZ10 is like? I think my dad might get this one as its ok for him and his lates and hot chocs.
    Hello Pete,

    If you need some help or advice with your machine feel free to contact us directly.

    Happy to give you a complimentary assessment

    Cheers

    Antony
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    Hi guys.
    I found a moment to get a new BZ10 on the bench for a pressure test with a blind PF inserted. You will see the bench test certificate (from the Australian importer, Berazi) in the pic as well as the pressure at spot on 12 Bar at the gauge. ......so 12 bar at the gauge is the factory setting and it's normal and A OK / no problemo
    Of course, pressure at the gauge is only an indication of normal function and isn't the same as pressure at the group head. I trust that Barazi optimised the group head pressure during bench testing.

    I also took a quick video of the test. See here: https://youtu.be/XHxaBXogGbc
    Hi all,

    Just for the sake of accuracy, that test certificate is not from the local distributor. That is a European test certificate from the manufacturer before it was packed and sent.


    Cheers

    Antony
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owlee View Post
    Just a bit of an update about the bar pressure. Contacted Anthony from Casa espresso about bench testing my bz10, he assisted on doing it complimentary (top bloke).

    Turns out 11 bar on the gauge roughly equates to 9 bar at the group head! Figured Tanny and Jbounce would be glad to hear this. And any one else worried also.

    Thanks again Antony
    Hi Owlee,

    Not a problem at all.

    A quick pressure test showed the true group head pressure.

    The difference occurs with the dynamics of vibration pumps and pressure loss through to the group head.

    Admission that I did use your machine this morning to pull my morning shots!

    Performed like a dream !!

    Cheers
    Antony
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    ....and that's just one of the bonuses you get when you deal with a company with integrity! Nice work Antony.

    As a reseller of some brands, we receive machines bench tested by the importers and then would make adjustments to up to half of the machines we bench test- noisy, incorrect pressures and/or temperatures etc.

    As importers, we negotiate and decide on specification and then request Australian specific calibration where required. No doubt Antony does exactly the same thing...

    We find (with Izzo) that the factory does really well and it's an absolute pleasure to bench test them as we often visually inspect, stand and watch and then repack them. Nevertheless, omissions can and do occur. The last Valchiria I tested was 7bar at the group- but not after it left us... Like Antony, we also find that indicated system pressure and group pressure can vary significantly. We often get the call saying "Thanks, I got the machine, all well but the pressures were wrong so I fixed that." The response is to suggest the new owners "unfix" their work!

    Box sellers do none of this (or say that they do all of it whilst doing none) and hope for the best.

    Taking a step back, I am mindful that manufacturers are in the business of building machines and making sure that their designs work. It's not unreasonable to ask us to double check that no mistakes have occurred.

    My thoughts are that heartbreak with a new machine is fine- so long as it's our grief, not that of a new owner. We do our utmost to avoid that.
    Dimal and Casa Espresso like this.

  47. #47
    kbc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casa Espresso View Post
    Hi all,
    Just for the sake of accuracy, that test certificate is not from the local distributor. That is a European test certificate from the manufacturer before it was packed and sent.
    Cheers
    Antony
    Hi Antony,
    Thanks for picking this up. I should have noticed the "EN-60335-1."
    The Aus distributor (Bazari) has assured me that all machines are bench tested before shipping so this means they are checked in Europe, then again in Australia prior to shipping. If anyone has concerns feel free to contact Bazari directly to confirm this this is the case. Phone: 1300 550 927
    Thanks for helping out with that BZ10 Antony. That was very generous of you.
    I have already extended my 30 day "change of mind" returns policy to 60 days for BZ10 buyers. I'll make it 90 days to make 100% sure every customer is covered and happy.
    Cheers, Paul

  48. #48
    kbc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    ....and that's just one of the bonuses you get when you deal with a company with integrity! Nice work Antony.

    As a reseller of some brands, we receive machines bench tested by the importers and then would make adjustments to up to half of the machines we bench test- noisy, incorrect pressures and/or temperatures etc.

    As importers, we negotiate and decide on specification and then request Australian specific calibration where required. No doubt Antony does exactly the same thing...

    We find (with Izzo) that the factory does really well and it's an absolute pleasure to bench test them as we often visually inspect, stand and watch and then repack them. Nevertheless, omissions can and do occur. The last Valchiria I tested was 7bar at the group- but not after it left us... Like Antony, we also find that indicated system pressure and group pressure can vary significantly. We often get the call saying "Thanks, I got the machine, all well but the pressures were wrong so I fixed that." The response is to suggest the new owners "unfix" their work!

    Box sellers do none of this (or say that they do all of it whilst doing none) and hope for the best.

    Taking a step back, I am mindful that manufacturers are in the business of building machines and making sure that their designs work. It's not unreasonable to ask us to double check that no mistakes have occurred.

    My thoughts are that heartbreak with a new machine is fine- so long as it's our grief, not that of a new owner. We do our utmost to avoid that.
    Good points there Chris.
    An important question to ask before pulling the trigger on a purchase is "how and when will the machine be bench tested?"
    Most Australian distributors will only ship after they bench test themselves. Remember, it's the reputation of their machines that is on the line so it's in their interests to make sure they don't send out untested units. Some charge a small premium for this bench testing. Some don't.
    I always get the Australian distributors to bench test for me. For local buyers I prefer to go a little further and setup their machines, bench test them, then show them their machine running machines when they pick up.
    For interstate customers I usually rely on the Australian distributors.
    Again, great topic Chris. It's good to highlight advantages of buying from a sponsor over buying from a box seller. Price isn't the only factor to consider with prosumer machines. I think this one may be worthy of a new thread.
    Cheers, Paul
    0416528339
    www.kbean.com.au

  49. #49
    TC
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    The last time I saw one on this form factor, it was a BZ02.

    Nothing wrong with it other than being unpleasant to service and repair. As usual, you had to go head to head with the loktite if you wanted to set the OPV to 9Bar.

    For mine, any machine with an actively heated group just cries out for a PID.
    Dimal and Choman like this.

  50. #50
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    For mine, any machine with an actively heated group just cries out for a PID.
    And a real pity when one isn't fitted as standard...

    Mal.
    kbc likes this.

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