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Thread: Decent Espresso Machines (DE1) - Any thoughts?

  1. #401
    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Decent Espresso Machines (DE1) - Any thoughts?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    It wouldn't be necessary, but it'd be cool! Also, an induction system could facilitate magnetic alignment to properly position the scale on the grinder stand.

    My Acaia scale lives under my espresso machine, even though we use it for baking and I use it for roasting etc. Every scale needs a home of some sort, and a home that charges too is a dream. I reckon, for a cafe environment, induction plates would be an absolute game changer on the scale front. If Acaia doesn't do it first, they might find they lose some market share!
    Last edited by readeral; 14th May 2017 at 11:14 AM.
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    Hopefully the scale can also take "mains power in" as well as USB / batteries.

    This household goes through batteries at an alarming rate already, and the last thing I need is another 4 of them to replace every so often.

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    decent scale usb into mains power

    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    Hopefully the scale can also take "mains power in" as well as USB / batteries. This household goes through batteries at an alarming rate already, and the last thing I need is another 4 of them to replace every so often.
    Yes to mains: to plug the scale into the wall you would use a USB power converter, plug that into the wall and plug the scale into that via a USB cable. All fairly standard.

    Something like this goes into the wall:

    download.jpg

    and plugs into the bottom of the scale, using a provided right-angle connector USB micro cable.

    IMG_6459.JPG

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    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    I reckon, for a cafe environment, induction plates would be an absolute game changer on the scale front. If Acaia doesn't do it first, they might find they lose some market share!
    I was under the impression that inductive charging is inefficient and creates additional heat that has to be dissipated. Combine that with constantly charging LiPo batteries reducing lifespan and I wonder if they'd be better off just plugging them in overnight. (Cool factor aside )

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    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    I was under the impression that inductive charging is inefficient and creates additional heat that has to be dissipated. Combine that with constantly charging LiPo batteries reducing lifespan and I wonder if they'd be better off just plugging them in overnight. (Cool factor aside )
    There are solutions. On a stand designed that way with a scale that large, heat dissipation isn't really a difficulty. And repeated charge/discharge has solutions - I don't know how they work, but I know that's less of a problem than it used to be. *shrug* It's not like I'm buying one of these, so I don't actually care, just like thinking of random ideas!

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    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    I was under the impression that inductive charging is inefficient and creates additional heat that has to be dissipated
    Only when poorly engineered/designed 'l3n'...

    Mal.

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    I know a set of scales isn't going to be crammed together like a smart phone, but I've read it creates extra heat and shortens battery life wireless charging a phone. It's essentially a more seperated isolation transformer isn't it? They're​ pretty efficient at around 97% but the seperation would only make that worse wouldn't it? I don't think anyone will care about the actual power draw of such a tiny load, a dozen extra Watts aren't going to change a power bill, but if the inefficiency is heat loss then it could cause issues with the battery. Not trying to argue, you've got me curious. I know you'll know more about the theory then me.
    Last edited by level3ninja; 15th May 2017 at 10:19 AM. Reason: Autocorrect

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    Yep, it was the thermal losses I was referring to Ninja....
    Can be reduced to minute values when designed properly.

    Mal.

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    We're currently testing this heavy duty USB-A panel mount connector with a completely sealed power converter.

    I like this because it's highly water resistant (water in the USB-A will still short it, though), independent, and should stand up to a lot of abuse.

    Because we have two panels in the front: a strong one where this USB connector would mount, and then a thin, shiny "splash panel" that mounts in front of it, the two screws for this USB plug won't be visible on the front of our espresso machine.

    IMG_6468 copy.jpg

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    Decent Scale sent to manufacturing

    Our Decent Scale went off to manufacturing today. It should be shipping in 10 weeks.
    https://decentespresso.com/scale

    It's a 0.1g accurate, BLE compatible, two-glass capable, open API, very-simple user interface, scale and timer. It features a single-piece-of-plastic "hat" that covers the entire scale (except for the bottom), and the optional USB charger plugs in from the bottom so you can charge even in wet environments.

    A bit of news: we're working with Bobby Bobak, the author of the Pour Over app "Filtru" for ios, to integrate our scale with his app. More info on that as it progresses, but there's a scale on its way to him now, so he can start the coding work. https://getfiltru.com/

    As I've promised elsewhere, I am sharing our CAD drawings for public use. Here is the onshape URL to the entire scale assembly. This will make it much easier for people to physically integrate our scale into various uses, such as real time weighing of grinder doses. https://cad.onshape.com/documents/a4...63c3d3bf8b1208

    decent_scale_photo.jpg decent scale bottom.jpg decent scale top.jpg

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    Looking good. Are you still working on your own app?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    Looking good. Are you still working on your own app?
    That's a trick question, even if you didn't mean it to be!

    I have designs for several apps, including a flow meter, as well as integrating weighing functionality into the DE1+. But, I'm not currently working on them, because I'm totally focussed on shipping the DE1 machines at the moment.

    It's a trick question, because you asked your question in the same famous wording of the question "are you still beating your wife?" where a yes/no answer is not possible. The correct answer to your question is the Japanese word "Mu" The Japanese Word, Mu, by Robert Pirsig
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    decent tablet nit-picking

    We've placed our order for 1000 tablets, and now we're working with the manufacturer to get the tablet looking exactly the way we want.

    Here's what it looks like with the logo printed on the back. I think it looks awful.

    IMG_6478.JPG

    Pictured above is their dual-boot (Android/Windows) Intel model. Our tablet is Android only, with an ARM CPU (much faster, better battery life).

    The manufacturer was very surprised that I didn't want our logo printed on the back, but I think a black tablet without a logo looks really elegant.

    We're also picking a texture for the case, and I've gone for a matte black on ABS plastic, which is fairly fingerprint resistant (we're doing the one on the right)

    case.jpg

    I previously was going to use a material called "oil rubber" for the back (that's what the Windows tablet in the photo above is using) but all my engineers worried that it might turn sticky in a few years, so we're being conservative and going with matte ABS plastic.

    The printing next to the ports is in small, Futura type and is fairly unobtrusive.

    Finally, we were able to find silicone sleeves that were made for this tablet. We got a sample from them (ugh, in blue) and we'll need to punch a hole for the steelie stand in the sleeve, but otherwise it works well. I personally don't think the silicone sleeve is necessary, but if you're splashing water all over the tablet, or just worried about doing so, we'll be offering the sleeve as a low-cost accessory. Because this sleeve was moulded for this tablet, the fit is quite good and it doesn't look sloppy, like the other not-quite-perfect-fitting sleeves I've tried.

    IMG_6476.JPG
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    DE1CAFE heater

    Just took delivery today of these beautiful, tiny, super-efficient water heaters, custom made for us, with the connectors we wanted. They're a lot more expensive than our DE1 heaters, but they deliver the same heat power of normal water heaters in half the space. This is what we're hoping to use in our DE1CAFE models to deliver more steam power when 220V is available. I've received a lot of email from people wanting the features of the DE1CAFE (gravimetric shots, cafe-grade steam) but not countersunk, hence our interest in smaller heaters, so we can put more heating power in for greater steaming intensity. Yet, in the same chassis as the DE1. It might be possible, but it'll definitely require 220V. Since 220V is available in the US, and obviously the rest of the world has it, that could be ok. Can't say yet if a "desktop DE1CAFE" is possible, but I'd love it to be.

    2651495006676_.pic.jpg

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    A Paypal Pre-Order story

    Back in November, when we started taking pre-orders for our Decent Espresso machines, we were accepting Paypal and Stripe payments. Almost immediately, Paypal freaked out at our sudden rise in sales, and froze our account with $100k of sales in it.

    We were told (whoops!) that presales were forbidden by Paypal and that we had to ship everything within 20 days or provide refunds.

    Here's paypal's policy on pre-sales.
    https://www.paypal.com/us/selfhelp/article/Does-PayPal-permit-transactions-for-pre-sale-items-FAQ1488

    What we ended up doing is offering $100 in free accessories to anyone who had bought on Paypal, and who was willing to repurchase their DE1 with their credit card (and be refunded on Paypal), as Stripe has no problem with pre-orders. All but one pre-order took us up on that offer, and they wanted a refund because they didn't want to wait (fair enough).

    With the shipment of the Barista Kits last week, we were finally able to get access today to our paypal account (everything ordered has either shipped or been refunded).

    We're not yet accepting payments via paypal, not until all our items are in stock and shipping, so that we don't run afoul of Paypal's rules. I'm hoping to find the time to program a more nuanced shopping cart, that allows paypal if you are only ordering currently-shipping items.

    Bugs is jumping for joy at the moment, as this Paypal fiasco happened when I was on tour, and she was managing the company, and doing all the tech support I do, and all the accounting. It was not a good moment for this Paypal mess, but we're happy that it's in the past now!

    All part of starting a business.

    2731495007405_.pic_hd.jpg
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    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Haha. This happened to the Aillio guys too. What a gigantic mess that was.

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    new revision of our portafilter stand

    I have three samples of the new design (version 2) of our portafilter stands. https://decentespresso.com/portafilter_stand

    Changes in this design:
    - thicker metal (now totally rigid)
    - the "tail" of the stand, which holds the portafilter handle, is now lower, so that more portafilters are level when on the stand
    - two holes are now in the design, so that we can use those holes while dipping the stand in the paint. This solves the problem with version one, which had not-invisible-enough black marks on the insides, to cover up the unpainted areas where the tool had been to hold the stand while painting.
    - includes two pieces of double-sided 3M tape, to optionally affix the stand to a scale

    This revision should address the things people didn't like about version one, and I'm looking forward to to feedback on it.

    new_portafilter_stand.jpg
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  18. #418
    gc
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    As I was making my first coffee this morning, it occurred to me that I have two notepads and pen beside my coffee machine to record details of settings, coffee roast, grind settings and tasting notes etc. All this is necessary for my memory [or lack of it!], but prompted me to ask if the DE1(+) will have an option to record notes and comments when saving brew settings, e.g. a text field or link to a note app? Also, if brew settings are to be uploaded and shared to the cloud [looking forward to that option], to make the inclusion of notes in the upload optional, so that they may be private or for public viewing/use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gc View Post
    As I was making my first coffee this morning, it occurred to me that I have two notepads and pen beside my coffee machine to record details of settings, coffee roast, grind settings and tasting notes etc. All this is necessary for my memory [or lack of it!], but prompted me to ask if the DE1(+) will have an option to record notes and comments when saving brew settings, e.g. a text field or link to a note app? Also, if brew settings are to be uploaded and shared to the cloud [looking forward to that option], to make the inclusion of notes in the upload optional, so that they may be private or for public viewing/use.
    I absolutely plan to add note taking and scoring, and it will happen when the cloud features get programmed (later in the year is the planned schedule). I've also been looking at some systems for standardised descriptions of espresso shots, such as Counter Culture's wheel.

    CCC_Tasters_Wheel_LR.jpg

  20. #420
    gc
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    Quote Originally Posted by decentespresso View Post
    I've also been looking at some systems for standardised descriptions of espresso shots, such as Counter Culture's wheel.

    CCC_Tasters_Wheel_LR.jpg
    I've never seen the CounterCulture wheel before. What a great system for sharing and learning!

  21. #421
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    Why the Counterculture one rather than the updated (2016) SCAA one?

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    Brilliant idea!
    I can imagine having a "tasting / dialling-in" mode on the machine, it would bring up the wheel after the shot is poured and ask you to pick the flavours.
    I would also love to combine this with the microphone and / or camera for recording details of what the coffee is - use the camera to scan the barcode on the bag of beans, for example.

    Given the open nature of the system, this could even build a fantastic feedback loop for roasters. Imagine if a roaster with a subscription service got a feedback loop that showed how long it takes for beans they send out to get used, and what the customers think of the beans. This could even lead them to better tailor the subscriptions to customers' tastes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    Why the Counterculture one rather than the updated (2016) SCAA one?
    It's just my opinion, but I have previously found the SCAA wheel to be academic rather than practical. The Counter Culture one allows you to progressively narrow in on the flavor, and if you stop at any point, it's still useful. And too many things on the SCAA wheel have been unfamiliar terms to me.

    That being said, when I do implement this feature, I'll do both, and let people choose what they want, because SCAA is obviously a potent force. And I'll let people make their own hierarchy and enter it in.

    However, I now have to revise my opinion about the SCAA wheel. I've just now taken a look at the latest wheel, and it's much improved. Other than a few things like "Isovaleric Acid", I can now understand most everything on the new wheel. Kudos to them for improving it significantly.
    SCAA_FlavorWheel.01.18.15.jpg
    Last edited by decentespresso; 21st May 2017 at 03:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjoyce View Post
    Given the open nature of the system, this could even build a fantastic feedback loop for roasters. Imagine if a roaster with a subscription service got a feedback loop that showed how long it takes for beans they send out to get used, and what the customers think of the beans. This could even lead them to better tailor the subscriptions to customers' tastes.
    My hope is that if you keep your tasting notes, and info about the beans, that the software could crunch the numbers and help you narrow in on what parameters are most important for you to make your prefered shots with each bean.
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  25. #425
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    Will the bootloader on the tablet be unlocked as delivered? I'm thinking its unlikely to be delivered with Anroid O which should be more upgradeable and security focussed, so would appreciate the option to root/upgrade as I might require over time [i.e. my choice].

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    Quote Originally Posted by gc View Post
    Will the bootloader on the tablet be unlocked as delivered? I'm thinking its unlikely to be delivered with Anroid O which should be more upgradeable and security focussed, so would appreciate the option to root/upgrade as I might require over time [i.e. my choice].
    I've rooted this tablet with Kingo Root, and indeed the ability to root the tablet was essential to me.

    It'll be running Android 5.1, not because I can't get newer, but because Android 6.0 has been unstable on this (and other) tablet I have tested. I don't like the "unfortunately 'application xyz' has stopped" message, and this particular Android 5.1/tablet combination doesn't ever do that, whereas the newer tablet from this vendor does.

    Also, the worst bluetooth problems I have ever had with this tablet could be solved by stopping/starting Bluetooth, whereas on other tablets I've had to reboot (not so bad) or manually stop/clear the two bluetooth services (not good).

    I've been testing this tablet for about 2 years, and as it's the single biggest cheque we've had to write, we're going very, very conservative, and not using cutting edge tech. The tablet has to painlessly run my espresso software, without problems. If it does other stuff, great, but that's not my focus, and I'm not willing to get exciting-new-android-features in exchange for "potentially less reliable"
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  27. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by decentespresso View Post
    I've rooted this tablet with Kingo Root, and indeed the ability to root the tablet was essential to me.

    The tablet has to painlessly run my espresso software, without problems. If it does other stuff, great, but that's not my focus, and I'm not willing to get exciting-new-android-features in exchange for "potentially less reliable"
    But that's the whole point. Of course from your point of view older, 'tried and true' hardware and software is the best way to go. [A good example of that approach - Look at the cludgy infotainment systems in even expensive cars vs any modern phone], but in the future, there might be a dev out there who gets all the drivers/kernel issues sorted and makes available an upgrade that also 'just works'. I'm sure it would be no biggy to at least have the bootloader unlocked on delivery. I certainly wouldn't be altering anything until warranty ran out.

  28. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc View Post
    But that's the whole point. Of course from your point of view older, 'tried and true' hardware and software is the best way to go. [A good example of that approach - Look at the cludgy infotainment systems in even expensive cars vs any modern phone], but in the future, there might be a dev out there who gets all the drivers/kernel issues sorted and makes available an upgrade that also 'just works'. I'm sure it would be no biggy to at least have the bootloader unlocked on delivery. I certainly wouldn't be altering anything until warranty ran out.
    I'm not really sure what an "unlocked bootloader" means, honestly. You can "adb" the tablet with a new OS. Can you enlighten, how I could tell?

    That being said, I don't think you're ever going to upgrade this OS yourself, it would be far less painful and risky to buy a new Android tablet yourself. I tried hard to find a tablet that ran an open source variant of Android, but the Chinese really don't understand the desire for this, and so the price was USD$500+ for tablets that could do that. I've looked, and this being older hardware, and not Big Name Brand, no open source Android drivers exist for it.

  29. #429
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    Two links to briefly explain the bootloader:

    https://forum.xda-developers.com/wiki/Bootloader

    https://www.kingoapp.com/help/bootloader.htm

    Need to ask your supplier if they will, or do, supply the tablet with unlocked bootloader - or a means to do so. I am still using 2012 tablets with the latest Android with all its benefits - running faster and with better battery life than original software thanks to some dedicated developers, who just may be keen coffee lovers and appreciate the opportunities of your great espresso machines running future OS's. But if the bootloader can't be unlocked, then that sort of development will never happen.

    Remember, this is an internet enabled device with its cloud support and it will also last many years (decades we hope!), and like all IOT devices security is now becoming important, now and in the future. We don't want the home network compromised by an outdated system exposed to the world with outdated security. (Yes, I know, like millions of phone are now.)

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    I was fortunate to spend just little time with the DE1 and DE1+ the other day, when I visited Decent Espresso HQ when I was in Hong Kong last week


    I must say first impressions say it all, Wow...... what a lovely looking machine !


    It is more compact than I had imagined, even though previously I had looked at all the measurements, it is one tidy looking unit indeed, ideal for our apartment lifestyle that should easily get approval from the "higher being" who likes a clean uncluttered kitchen.


    The outside casing feels solid, as does the new drip tray cover. Unfortunately the new group head cover was not on, but I would be happy with the current shape in either the black or silver, both have their merits in the looks department.


    The polished front plate looks really great against the quality finish on the outside black casing.


    The tablet interface is nice, crisp and responsive, or though there are a couple of pretty scary skins I wouldn't want to greet me with the first morning cuppa, but they are selectable.


    Making an espresso is quite straight forward, just making a couple of selections on the tablet and after a little mechanical clicking the extraction starts. The steam output was nice and powerful making great silky milk in no time, a skill I am unfortunately still yet to master consistently.


    One of the other "must have's" is a DE sprung tamper, it has such a lovely solid feel to it, and so beautifully made.


    There is something quite exciting seeing a small development team in action producing something that is quite revolutionary, in plush offices they are not, but there is a real feeling of anticipation in the air that things are now so very close.


    I left with a real sense of excitement and a realisation that there will be one of these little babies sitting in our kitchen before Christmas


    Thank you Edison and John for taking some time out of your day at this busy time.
    Last edited by Downunder55; 22nd May 2017 at 02:33 PM. Reason: clarity
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc View Post
    Remember, this is an internet enabled device with its cloud support and it will also last many years (decades we hope!), and like all IOT devices security is now becoming important, now and in the future. We don't want the home network compromised by an outdated system exposed to the world with outdated security. (Yes, I know, like millions of phone are now.)
    As I only have one sample at the moment of the tablet we're using, I haven't played with replacing the ROM, sideloading, or anything that could brick the tablet.

    I wasn't able to determine if the bootloader is unlocked today, after about 2h of work (but I did discover "termux" a full linux command line stack for Android) that also installed "apt" (happy dance)

    I have emailed my sales person to ask about the bootloader being unlocked, and we'll see if I can get an answer.

    However, I did manage to reboot into "recovery mode" (power on with volume down button pressed) and engaged the "adb sideload" feature. Pictures below. Does that do anything for you?

    This Android rev appears to be fairly popular, and there is a "terminus ROM" which might support it. Again, I'm not going to play with this now as I can't risk bricking my only development tablet. I think I'd prefer to leave this to Android hackers who Actually Know Something About Doing This.

    https://forum.xda-developers.com/cro...-file-t3057865
    https://gist.github.com/eyecatchup/dab5cf7977008e504213
    Nexus 4 gets Android 5.1 Lollipop LMY47I update via Terminus ROM

    IMG_6515.JPG

    IMG_6516.JPG

  32. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by decentespresso View Post
    As I only have one sample at the moment of the tablet we're using, I haven't played with replacing the ROM, sideloading, or anything that could brick the tablet.

    I wasn't able to determine if the bootloader is unlocked today, after about 2h of work (but I did discover "termux" a full linux command line stack for Android) that also installed "apt" (happy dance)

    I have emailed my sales person to ask about the bootloader being unlocked, and we'll see if I can get an answer.

    However, I did manage to reboot into "recovery mode" (power on with volume down button pressed) and engaged the "adb sideload" feature. Pictures below. Does that do anything for you?

    This Android rev appears to be fairly popular, and there is a "terminus ROM" which might support it. Again, I'm not going to play with this now as I can't risk bricking my only development tablet. I think I'd prefer to leave this to Android hackers who Actually Know Something About Doing This.

    https://forum.xda-developers.com/cro...-file-t3057865
    https://gist.github.com/eyecatchup/dab5cf7977008e504213
    Nexus 4 gets Android 5.1 Lollipop LMY47I update via Terminus ROM

    IMG_6515.JPG

    IMG_6516.JPG
    Very grateful and appreciate that you are checking the bootloader situation. I do hope that you can find a path to greater future security with this device. I know security is often not in the forefront of manufacturers minds, but these days it needs to be factored in from the beginning. The lack of an upgrade path has rendered even big name IOT home appliances at risk (eg TV's that last years and have never had an OS update, IP camera's, routers etc.). It doesn't expose the manufacturer, its their customers who are at risk. As an older spec device(?) (from your description), I am assuming that the manufacturer no longer provides OS support/updates (if they ever did), making aftermarket custom ROMS the only way to upgrade and ensure security in the future.

    Sometimes its possible to sideload a ROM with the bootloader locked, but often it must have a correct digital signature unless unlocked. So an official OTA update would install, but not a customised ROM in that case. And of course, any apps should be installable in the system. As I don't know what the tablet you will supply is I can't check this out or what the version of Terminus ROM for this device is. (That ROM is adapted for a number of devices) Also, it seems to be only Android 5.1.1. Hmmm....

    Glad you found Termux. I'm amazed that a skilled app developer like you with all your technical knowledge, didn't know about it [compared to me who couldn't program to save my life].

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    Quote Originally Posted by gc View Post
    As I don't know what the tablet you will supply is I can't check this out or what the version of Terminus ROM for this device is. (That ROM is adapted for a number of devices) Also, it seems to be only Android 5.1.1.
    Our tablet identical to this one from Argos: Buy Alba 8 Inch 16GB Wi-Fi Tablet at Argos.co.uk - Your Online Shop for Tablets, iPad, tablets and E-readers, Technology.

    I've also been told that this tablet was codeveloped by the manufacturer and Archos, but I don't know exactly which Archos tablet this is. The sample I have is labelled "ALBA" which is Argos' own brand.

    One of the reasons I chose it is because the OS install is much more stable anything I've used, other than my Nexus phone. And it comes with the Google-licensed full app stack. It looks like Argos (a large UK based store) made our vendor put a lot of work into this model, because none of the other Android tablets from this vendor had the same level of polish and stability.

    Now that you know the exact model, maybe you will be able to find information about its security, bootloader status, etc... I quick search myself just now didn't turn up anything, but I'm generally clueless about Android hacking.

  34. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by decentespresso View Post
    Our tablet identical to this one from Argos: Buy Alba 8 Inch 16GB Wi-Fi Tablet at Argos.co.uk - Your Online Shop for Tablets, iPad, tablets and E-readers, Technology.

    I've also been told that this tablet was codeveloped by the manufacturer and Archos, but I don't know exactly which Archos tablet this is. The sample I have is labelled "ALBA" which is Argos' own brand.

    Now that you know the exact model, maybe you will be able to find information about its security, bootloader status, etc... I quick search myself just now didn't turn up anything, but I'm generally clueless about Android hacking.
    I had the same problem as you - Googling produced nothing useful and I was unable to determine which (if any) Archos model it could be. Didn't find anything useful on XDA-Developers either. So I guess we wait on your supplier to reveal all for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gc View Post
    I had the same problem as you - Googling produced nothing useful and I was unable to determine which (if any) Archos model it could be. Didn't find anything useful on XDA-Developers either. So I guess we wait on your supplier to reveal all for us.
    Unfortunately, I got a clueless answer from the tablet manufacturer, as they don't understand the difference between rootable and unlocked bootloader. Sorry.

    In China, the tablet manufacturing business is highly segmented, with separate companies specializing in ROMs, drivers and Android installs. The company we deal with assembles the tablets from components bought from specialized companies, flashes the ROMs, etc, but doesn't really know anything about the software in the tablet. That's also why they're able to seamlessly produce a dual boot Android/Windows variation on our tablet, which would be a horrendously complicated OS job for them.

    In case you're curious, here are some photos of the tablet factory in Shenzhen, when Jeffrey went to visit them last week to discuss various technical details.

    x1.jpg x2.jpg x3.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by decentespresso View Post
    Unfortunately, I got a clueless answer from the tablet manufacturer, as they don't understand the difference between rootable and unlocked bootloader. Sorry.

    In case you're curious, here are some photos of the tablet factory in Shenzhen, when Jeffrey went to visit them last week to discuss various technical details.

    x1.jpg x2.jpg x3.jpg



    You could try fastboot getvar all command which might reveal the bootloader status, or sometimes the bootloader screen itself will show the lock status (device-dependent) - I noticed the option to reboot to bootloader in your recovery screenshot above. Or, if your prepared to wipe a tablet completely, try fastboot devices then fastboot oem-unlock and see if it does. Otherwise, the supply chain seems to be a bit of a dogs breakfast, which doesn't auger well for security.

    I imagined a factory full of robots producing 20k units a day! It sure is a fragmented assembly system. But I do appreciate the attention you are giving to this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gc View Post
    You could try fastboot getvar all command which might reveal the bootloader status, or sometimes the bootloader screen itself will show the lock status (device-dependent) - I noticed the option to reboot to bootloader in your recovery screenshot above. Or, if your prepared to wipe a tablet completely, try fastboot devices then fastboot oem-unlock and see if it does..
    fastboot does not seem to be installed on this tablet.

    In Termux, I ran:
    find / -name fastboot

    and nothing was found.

    ----

    As far as the security of this android build, if you're concerned about that you can not enable wifi, as only bluetooth is needed for the tablet to talk to the DE1.

  38. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by decentespresso View Post
    fastboot does not seem to be installed on this tablet.

    In Termux, I ran:
    find / -name fastboot

    and nothing was found.
    As far as the security of this android build, if you're concerned about that you can not enable wifi, as only bluetooth is needed for the tablet to talk to the DE1.
    Sorry. I should have been more explicit. I am assuming you are using a Windows or a Linux machine for DE app software development? If so, in Linux [with tablet connected to PC and usb debugging turned on] AND fastboot and adb installed on PC, you would boot tablet into bootloader and then try fastboot devices in a terminal on the PC. If it returns a value string then you're connected in fastboot mode and can execute the fastboot commands mentioned above from the PC terminal. [may need sudo]. In Windows there is more faffing around with drivers to get the Tablet connected, but once done and the fastboot and adb components are installed (from the Android SDK) you can do the same thing from a terminal on the PC. Unless path variable is set to location of fastboot commands though you need to be in the directory where fastboot is located in terminal before executing fastboot commands. Setting up PC and available fastboot commands - Google [lots of resources - I'm thinking here is not the place to sidetrack too much from main topic]. Might be a task to delegate to one of those bright young engineering students you are bringing on board.

    I know all we need to do is turn wifi off and its no longer an internet connected device, but surely, a major feature of the software is its connectivity to cloud and sharing recipes etc. for the life of the machine. Lots of your users may be very skilled with coffee, but may be clueless about how secure their wifi is. You need to protect them too and at this point the tablet is a weak point in the system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gc View Post
    Might be a task to delegate to one of those bright young engineering students you are bringing on board.
    Agreed, and they're starting in a few weeks, so I'll delegate.

    Probably best if we took this topic off-forum as it's a bit far from coffee at this point.

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    funnel v2

    We've changed the design slightly for version 2 of our portafilter funnels https://decentespresso.com/funnel

    We previously were making them out of stainless steel, and coating them with teflon. The coating looked beautiful, and worked well, but if you've ever had a teflon coated frying pan, you know that sooner or later you end up scratching the teflon off. Teflon is unfortunately too delicate a material, and eventually you'll get blemishes.

    This is what the funnel we're using here looks like after 6 months of daily use. The most vulnerable part, the edge, which is both most likely to get banged, and hardest to get teflon to stick, has several "dings".

    IMG_6534.jpg

    Also, the stainless steel funnel weighed half a pound (260g), which felt great, but was a bit overkill, and cost us a fortune in air shipping.

    The new design is made from food-grade aluminum, black anodised coated. It's almost as no-stick, but much more durable. The weight is much reduced (97g), but still heavy enough to stay put.

    Here's a photo of the two models side-by-side, with the old on the left, and the new on the right.

    IMG_6531.jpg
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    500 custom-made tablet stands came in on a pallet today.

    I had planned on pre-gluing the stand to the tablet before you receive your espresso machine from us, but now I'm thinking that it might be better to let you glue it yourself, so that you can decide (a) the angle (b) whether you want the stand or prefer to have the tablet elsewhere (such as on a wall). To glue the tablet, you peel the wax-paper off the stand base and stick the now-exposed 3M pad to your tablet.

    What do you think?

    IMG_6535.jpg
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    Good move IMO

  43. #443
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    I can't figure out from the photo how it works.

    But definitely want an option for the tablet to be removable/replaceable easily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gc View Post
    I can't figure out from the photo how it works. But definitely want an option for the tablet to be removable/replaceable easily.
    Here's an annotated drawing. Being magnetic, the stand (and tablet) lift off the espresso machine so you can wipe it clean. The thin (shiny) round piece of magnetic metal is stuck on to the other side of the case, providing an "anchor point" for the magnet that goes on top.

    explained.jpg
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  45. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by decentespresso View Post
    Here's an annotated drawing. Being magnetic, the stand (and tablet) lift off the espresso machine so you can wipe it clean. The thin (shiny) round piece of magnetic metal is stuck on to the other side of the case, providing an "anchor point" for the magnet that goes on top.
    The annotated diagram explains all. Many thanks.

    I vaguely remember in an earlier post on here, or HB, that you were considering an option to have the tablet holder not glued to the tablet in some way so that in the future another tablet could be used without damaging the back of the tablet supplied. I am considering this because i) the app will be available to download to any Android device and ii) I already have an old 7" Nexus tablet upgraded with a custom ROM to the latest iteration of Android - with security updates. [As long as the Bluetooth stack works OK! ]

  46. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc View Post
    The annotated diagram explains all. Many thanks. I vaguely remember in an earlier post on here, or HB, that you were considering an option to have the tablet holder not glued to the tablet in some way so that in the future another tablet could be used without damaging the back of the tablet supplied. I am considering this because i) the app will be available to download to any Android device and ii) I already have an old 7" Nexus tablet upgraded with a custom ROM to the latest iteration of Android - with security updates. [As long as the Bluetooth stack works OK! ]
    You're welcome to use your own 7" Nexus tablet instead of ours.

    As to the stand, the one we provide does glue on the back, because that's the best solution I've found for having a sturdy (doesn't move around) tablet stand. If you disagree, fine, no problem, don't use our stand, you're welcome to make your own choice.

  47. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by decentespresso View Post
    You're welcome to use your own 7" Nexus tablet instead of ours.

    As to the stand, the one we provide does glue on the back, because that's the best solution I've found for having a sturdy (doesn't move around) tablet stand. If you disagree, fine, no problem, don't use our stand, you're welcome to make your own choice.
    I wasn't meaning to imply anything negative, but wanting to confirm that since those earlier posts on the tablet stand that you had, in fact, excluded the option to easily swap out the tablet in the final design. The suggestion of the use of an existing tablet was by way of an example scenario where flexibility to remove the tablet would be advantageous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gc View Post
    I wasn't meaning to imply anything negative, but wanting to confirm that since those earlier posts on the tablet stand that you had, in fact, excluded the option to easily swap out the tablet in the final design. The suggestion of the use of an existing tablet was by way of an example scenario where flexibility to remove the tablet would be advantageous.
    No worries, and there was a discussion some months ago about a potentially alternative stand that would be built into the machine, and thus offer less flexibility (but more design integration).

    I decided not to go down that route, and stick with the original stand design, which is removable/swappable and let you use whatever tablet you like, as long as you understand that other tablets might not look as good with our app (viz resolution, colors, etc)...

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    Default shot profiles - emulating other machines

    I've started making some default shot profiles to include on the DE1. This will evolve with time, and of course you can make your own, and when I write the cloud sharing stuff, download them too.

    One thing that I realized is that some older lever machines don't have a pressure release valve. So, we've added a new bluetooth command to the DE1+ to end a shot program, but hold pressure (don't open the flush valve), so that the DE1+ can copy this style of espresso making.

    I'd love to have a conversation about some of the shot styles you'd like to see be in the default DE1.

    Here's a off-the-top-of-my-head list:
    - flat shots at 8, 8.6, 9 and 10 bar, with no preinfusion (aka commercial machines).
    - lever shots that rise to 6, 8, 9 bar, and decrease linearly over 25 seconds to 0 bar.
    - lever shots with a 2nd spring, so that the peak pressure is held for 8 seconds, then there's a linear decline to zero bar
    - Strada EP style pressure profiling, with the common profile of rise to 9 bar, then decline to 6 bar over 30s.
    - E61 shots with preinfusion (at 4 ml/s) for 6 seconds, then a flat 9 bar.
    - My personal favorite of preinfusion, then rise to 9 bar, hold for 10s, then decline to 4 bar over 25s. Same for 6, 8, 8.6 and 10 bar.

    What other kinds of shots would you like to see included by default?

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    Quote Originally Posted by decentespresso View Post
    I've started making some default shot profiles to include on the DE1. This will evolve with time, and of course you can make your own, and when I write the cloud sharing stuff, download them too.

    One thing that I realized is that some older lever machines don't have a pressure release valve. So, we've added a new bluetooth command to the DE1+ to end a shot program, but hold pressure (don't open the flush valve), so that the DE1+ can copy this style of espresso making.

    I'd love to have a conversation about some of the shot styles you'd like to see be in the default DE1.

    Here's a off-the-top-of-my-head list:
    - flat shots at 8, 8.6, 9 and 10 bar, with no preinfusion (aka commercial machines).
    - lever shots that rise to 6, 8, 9 bar, and decrease linearly over 25 seconds to 0 bar.
    - lever shots with a 2nd spring, so that the peak pressure is held for 8 seconds, then there's a linear decline to zero bar
    - Strada EP style pressure profiling, with the common profile of rise to 9 bar, then decline to 6 bar over 30s.
    - E61 shots with preinfusion (at 4 ml/s) for 6 seconds, then a flat 9 bar.
    - My personal favorite of preinfusion, then rise to 9 bar, hold for 10s, then decline to 4 bar over 25s. Same for 6, 8, 8.6 and 10 bar.

    What other kinds of shots would you like to see included by default?
    That's about it, I reckon



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