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Thread: silly question here... "how do you start up (warm up) your HX machine in morning???

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    silly question here... "how do you start up (warm up) your HX machine in morning???

    Hi all,

    First of all, could be silly question here.

    But I am planning on getting a HX machine... but have read that it takes little bit of time to heat up (varying between 15 to 30+ mins depending on the type of machine). And I saw a youtube clip where one person said they use the timer consent plug into the wall and said it works fine....

    So my question is does this really work? and would it not damage your expansive toy?

    Only wanting to know as it can be hard to get up early for work as is... but having to have nice coffee with what would be a new shiny toy of mine in near future... just wanted to know how others do it!

    Thanks

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    Junior Member lindsayward's Avatar
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    I use a WiFi remote power plug, which is great. Set it to turn on every morning, plus turn it on via your phone when you're on the way home. Some also track power usage. You can get good ones for about $60. Also useful if you forget to turn it off... turn it off from anywhere.

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    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    I would say most (all?) HX machines have auto boiler fill and cut out if water tank is empty, so safe to switch on remotely (you don't want to burn out an element due to low boiler water level).

    So if above is ok you can use any timer, mechanical or wifi or otherwise.

    I use the arlec wifi switch and it's great having the ability to turn on machine before you head home.

    Cheers
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    Orvibo S20 for about $30. Has multiple schedule options
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    The main reason the HX take some time to heat is something I have just realized - okay may I am a bit thick!
    Running through the boiler is an enlarged pipe this is the key to the thermo syphon that makes the HX so successful. The continuous flow of heated water through this and through the e61 group is what give the HX its temperature stability.
    Time is required for the water in this extraction system to be heated by the water in the pipe heated by the boiler water it passes through. That takes time. The gauge may indicate that the boiler is ready but this does not mean that the thermo syphon water is at the right temp and that it's flow has heated the massive brass group.
    Sorry if this is obvious but it wasn't to me!
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    Member GunBarista's Avatar
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    Basically what I like to say is: an E61 group head is like an oven, It needs to be preheated.

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    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    I get out of bed walk to the kitchen turn machine on. Shower etc get dressed, water the garden talk to dog, yell at kids and then machine is hot.
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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dumiya View Post
    The main reason the HX take some time to heat is something I have just realized - okay may I am a bit thick!
    Running through the boiler is an enlarged pipe this is the key to the thermo syphon that makes the HX so successful. The continuous flow of heated water through this and through the e61 group is what give the HX its temperature stability.
    Time is required for the water in this extraction system to be heated by the water in the pipe heated by the boiler water it passes through. That takes time. The gauge may indicate that the boiler is ready but this does not mean that the thermo syphon water is at the right temp and that it's flow has heated the massive brass group.
    Sorry if this is obvious but it wasn't to me!
    Hence the name 'heat exchanger' dumiya. It's a literal name and is actually a fairly generic term for a system that can take many forms. Heat exchangers are far more common in industry than they are in coffee machines for instance (particularly oil and other energy industries).

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    Quote Originally Posted by scho047 View Post
    Hi all,

    First of all, could be silly question

    So my question is does this really work? and would it not damage your
    Yes this certainly works and is almost a standard setup. You'd probably find the majority of users on these boards are using a timer of some sort.

    My suggestion is the Belkin WeMo, which you can set and control via an app.

    It's easy to set up different schedules for weekends etc and you can switch it on remotely (eg: say you're heading home from a day out and you want the machine to be ready on arrival.).
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    Senior Member ArtW's Avatar
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    Dumiya - I don't think that the warming of the water in the HX is the reason that the typical HX takes 30-45 minutes to warm up when its first turned on. Once the boiler reaches temperature, it heats the fresh (cool) water as it passes through, it does not need the water to sit (otherwise you couldn't do back-to-back shots). Warm up time is usually based on ensuring the group is at temperature so the temp of the brew is not dropped as it hits the group head. Many 'traditional' HX machines use the e-61 group, which being an exposed heavy chunk of brass and chrome does take significant time to get to temperature. This would apply just as much to single or dual boiler e-61 machines though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trentski View Post
    I get out of bed walk to the kitchen turn machine on. Shower etc get dressed, water the garden talk to dog, yell at kids and then machine is hot.
    Hmm I have all of those espresso accessories except the dog. Can I buy one from one of the sponsors? Also, what age child yields the best espresso?

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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtW View Post
    Dumiya - I don't think that the warming of the water in the HX is the reason that the typical HX takes 30-45 minutes to warm up when its first turned on. Once the boiler reaches temperature, it heats the fresh (cool) water as it passes through, it does not need the water to sit (otherwise you couldn't do back-to-back shots). Warm up time is usually based on ensuring the group is at temperature so the temp of the brew is not dropped as it hits the group head. Many 'traditional' HX machines use the e-61 group, which being an exposed heavy chunk of brass and chrome does take significant time to get to temperature. This would apply just as much to single or dual boiler e-61 machines though.
    Yes that's my understanding. It's the big lump of metal that makes the group head that is the last thing to come up to temp. The same applies to non-e61 commercial group heads to varying degrees.

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    You may be right - however the water in the HX system does circulate so it heats the e61, cools in the process and returns and passes through the boiler as it reheats. In the e61 there is a restrictor this slows the flow of water so that the group heats to the desired temp. That is the group heating process. When the extraction begins the heated water in the system flows through the group that modifies the temp by its bulk. So the group needs to be at the right temp regardless of the boiler pressure gauge. Yes cold water is intruduced into the system on extraction but the heated water in the HX gets to the group first. The fresh water is heated and ready for the next extraction. I think if the extraction was not designed correctly (restricted) and running continuously the cool fresh water would eventually cool the group. The volume water in the HX in the boiler is critical to the stability of the system. So is the speed of th extraction rate. So it is a bit of both. I have done 5 double extractions one after the other (- well I had to grind the dose so there was ~20 sec wait between each extraction) - so does show the remarkably stability of the HX system. Fascinating I think.
    Just my getting my head around it
    Last edited by dumiya; 9th February 2017 at 09:07 AM.

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    I used to use a timer, but the vibe pump kicking on at 06:00 was problematic for my partner.

    I ran some numbers and decided that the benefit vis power use wasn't terribly high so I just leave it on.

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    Bought a WeMo Insight yesterday. Works well. Got out of bed to a nice hot machine today. Remote switch on/off seems to work really well. Found it was small enough to not effect my grinder plug at the power outlet.

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    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    I use wemo insight. Rigged it with a bit of magic (IFTTT, google sheets, JavaScript) to tell me when it's at temperature. It's perfect.

    Jbrewster - does the pump have to kick in first thing each time? I usually flick on my machine before going to bed so I know the boiler is full ready for it to heat of a morning.
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    I use an Efergy Ego smart outlet for my coffee machine. Similar functionality to the Wemo (Wifi control, multiple timers, etc) but it is narrow enough that it doesn't block the second power point on the double outlet where the grinder is plugged into.

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    I've also ordered a xiaomi mi plug which has same abilities but is super small. I'll report back once I've got it and had a play. Its by far the smallest one of these I have seen.

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    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    I use wemo insight. Rigged it with a bit of magic (IFTTT, google sheets, JavaScript) to tell me when it's at temperature. It's perfect.

    Jbrewster - does the pump have to kick in first thing each time? I usually flick on my machine before going to bed so I know the boiler is full ready for it to heat of a morning.
    Still thinking about getting a WeMo Insight and getting this setup going...
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    Junior Member Heston's Avatar
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    Another thumbs up for WeMo insight. I have mine on a schedule to turn on 15mins before my alarm each work day. I often use the app to turn it on as I'm leaving work. Over the past few months I've not been caught out once having to wait for it to get to temperature. Reliable and effective. Highly recommend.
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    Thank you all for your inputs and suggestions! I sure will be looking to get WeMo when I do get my HX machine in few weeks!!
    But does that mean, you leave the main switch "ON" on your machine and have that plugged into the Smart Socket/Plug and let that control? Does not not ruin or cause problem with the machine??? Power surge etc... thanks!

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    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    I've had my Wemo on for 9 months. Hasn't skipped a beat. That being said - my machine is a pressurestat, a boiler element and a few lights...
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    Senior Member ArtW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scho047 View Post
    Thank you all for your inputs and suggestions! I sure will be looking to get WeMo when I do get my HX machine in few weeks!!
    But does that mean, you leave the main switch "ON" on your machine and have that plugged into the Smart Socket/Plug and let that control? Does not not ruin or cause problem with the machine??? Power surge etc... thanks!
    Correct, shouldn't cause problem but I've got my timer plugged into a surge protector just in case. You don't need a WEMO unless you think you'll want to turn your machine on at a unscheduled time from another location. I've got a cheap ($20?) HPM digital switch that I have set to turn on every weekday morning before I get up and turn off when I leave for work, its also programmed to stay on till 5:00 on the weekends - perfect.
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    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    I got an Arlec wifi switch, looks identical to wemo but was cheaper, $40 from memory.

    Cheers

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    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    Got a Wemo. Very happy with it.
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    One lo-tech suggestion to speed up heating an E61 grouphead that I have come across is to put a towel over the grouphead while the machine is heating up. Anyone ever tried this?
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    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by degaulle View Post
    One lo-tech suggestion to speed up heating an E61 grouphead that I have come across is to put a towel over the grouphead while the machine is heating up. Anyone ever tried this?
    I keep my "polishing" microfibre cloth there while the machine isn't in use - but more to keep it clean and dry and out of the way than anything else!

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    Quote Originally Posted by degaulle View Post
    One lo-tech suggestion to speed up heating an E61 grouphead that I have come across is to put a towel over the grouphead while the machine is heating up. Anyone ever tried this?
    Yep, this works well.
    Wouldn't leave it there longer than needed to get the group up to operating temperature though, can cause the group to get too hot if one is not careful...

    Mal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    does the pump have to kick in first thing each time?
    Seems to be part of the initialisation process, the controller runs the pump for a few seconds every time it powers up.

    Either that or once the anti-vac drops out I'm losing enough water as the boiler cools to drop it below the auto-fill level.
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by degaulle View Post
    One lo-tech suggestion to speed up heating an E61 grouphead that I have come across is to put a towel over the grouphead while the machine is heating up. Anyone ever tried this?
    Guess you could ask Mum to crochet a group head cosy.

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    Senior Member matth3wh's Avatar
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    +1 for cheap and easy to adjust HPM or digital on/off timer.

    But I can sure understand people wanting an internet connected on/off switch when they're heading out and not sure when they'll be back but want a warm and ready machine waiting to greet them at home.

    Yeltsin I have a team of grannies hard at work right now working on the e61 cosy. Scratch that. There's been a delay. They just left on their latest caravan trip. Hoping to get them through local show society certification and win some awards soon.

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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matth3wh View Post
    +1 for cheap and easy to adjust HPM or digital on/off timer.

    But I can sure understand people wanting an internet connected on/off switch when they're heading out and not sure when they'll be back but want a warm and ready machine waiting to greet them at home.

    Yeltsin I have a team of grannies hard at work right now working on the e61 cosy. Scratch that. There's been a delay. They just left on their latest caravan trip. Hoping to get them through local show society certification and win some awards soon.
    This could well be a crowd funding opportunity.

    You know if someone came up with a hi tech E61 (Speed Warmer) made with space age insulating material I bet they would sell, remember, you saw it here first.
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    Alternately you pimp with cartridge heaters to the group and hey presto, up in 10 min.
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    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Orrrr, you could do what I do, out of bed > machine on > shower, shave and whatever, perhaps I'm slow but by the time I've achieved all of this the machine is hot enough for my first Lungo of the day, works well for me.
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    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman View Post
    Alternately you pimp with cartridge heaters to the group and hey presto, up in 10 min.
    Just like our Bezzera BZ10!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrewster View Post
    Seems to be part of the initialisation process, the controller runs the pump for a few seconds every time it powers up.

    Either that or once the anti-vac drops out I'm losing enough water as the boiler cools to drop it below the auto-fill level.
    Erg, what a pain.

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    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Orrrr, you could do what I do, out of bed > machine on > shower, shave and whatever, perhaps I'm slow but by the time I've achieved all of this the machine is hot enough for my first Lungo of the day, works well for me.


    Some people (e.g. me) prefer to do things in a different order though. I'd rather chillax for 30 minutes with a coffee and a crossword / book before preparing for work. So on weekdays I use a timer (also helps as my other half catches a 6.20am bus and I make her a take away coffee as she leaves. On weekends I just switch it on when I get up.

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    Senior Member LFM60's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casa Espresso View Post
    Just like our Bezzera BZ10!
    But Mr Casa, you forgot to put a link to it...............

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    Senior Member matth3wh's Avatar
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    Anyone tried rubbing your hands together for a few minutes and then placing them on the e61 group head to warm it up quicker?
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    Senior Member 2muchcoffeeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFM60 View Post
    But Mr Casa, you forgot to put a link to it...............
    Easily found in Antony's eBay shop and they are a very good little machine (even though they get mercilessly canned at every possible opportunity by some here and elsewhere ). At $<2k, they are great bang for buck and if you have the funds to shell for a PID on one, you get dual boiler shot temp control in a HX machine.

    Try to see one in the metal and have a play if at all possible and then get Antony to pimp one for you.
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    Senior Member LFM60's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman View Post
    Easily found in Antony's eBay shop and they are a very good little machine (even though they get mercilessly canned at every possible opportunity by some here and elsewhere ). At $<2k, they are great bang for buck and if you have the funds to shell for a PID on one, you get dual boiler shot temp control in a HX machine.

    Try to see one in the metal and have a play if at all possible and then get Antony to pimp one for you.
    Ah yes 2mcm. I was stirring a little about forgetting a link..........

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    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    Some people (e.g. me) prefer to do things in a different order though. I'd rather chillax for 30 minutes with a coffee and a crossword / book before preparing for work. So on weekdays I use a timer (also helps as my other half catches a 6.20am bus and I make her a take away coffee as she leaves. On weekends I just switch it on when I get up.
    Same here - makes perfect sense to me to have the machine ready to go when I wake up.

    I also used to join a few road cycling groups, often meant leaving around 5.30 am. I'd be out the door within 10 minutes of getting out of bed, so no time for a machine to warm up if switched on manually.

    Belkin WeMo does the trick nicely. If I wake up early, I can even switch it on before the scheduled time without getting out of bed
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    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Guess you could ask Mum to crochet a group head cosy.
    Haha I can just see the hipsters going crazy for these...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Matt View Post
    Haha I can just see the hipsters going crazy for these...
    Yep, can see em in Melbourne, hipster barista, crocheted E61 covers and matching beanie's, in footy colours.

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    ... Dare I say it but if you can't wait for an E61 to warm up then don't get an E61 machine.

    BZ10 is a fine example, and there are plenty others.
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    As many said WEEMO from belkin is great. Set on a timer for the morning. When you're out and about, if you know you want a coffee when you get home a simple tap ahead of your ETA and the machine is hot when you get there. The added bonus is that you can use the Weemo to plug in a light for when you're on holidays and switch it on/off remotely, from anywhere in the world, to make it look like there's somone home...
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2muchcoffeeman View Post
    Easily found in Antony's eBay shop and they are a very good little machine (even though they get mercilessly canned at every possible opportunity by some here and elsewhere ). At $<2k, they are great bang for buck and if you have the funds to shell for a PID on one, you get dual boiler shot temp control in a HX machine.
    .
    BZ10 ??
    Hmm ? just so no one is under any illusions..
    BZ10 group does not have the same abilities as E61, eg , no pre-infusion, less mass, so less temp stability, etc.
    The heaters in the BZ group are necessary to compensate for its lack of thermal coupling to the heat exchanger and sadly they have a wide "dead zone" temp range.
    The PID controls the boiler temp, not the group temp, which is not adjustable ?...so shot temperature is largely unaffected.

  48. #48
    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blend52 View Post
    BZ10 ??
    Hmm ? just so no one is under any illusions..
    BZ10 group does not have the same abilities as E61, eg , no pre-infusion, less mass, so less temp stability, etc.
    The heaters in the BZ group are necessary to compensate for its lack of thermal coupling to the heat exchanger and sadly they have a wide "dead zone" temp range.
    The PID controls the boiler temp, not the group temp, which is not adjustable ?...so shot temperature is largely unaffected.
    Blend52,

    it seems to me you have missed the point of the thread and some of your other points are just incorrect.

    The question was how to speed up the warm up process of the E61 group head in a HX machine.

    The BZ10 was put up as an option of heating up faster, it can do this as it has cartridge heaters in the group head.

    No one said it had the E61 pre infusion. Yes it has less mass then an E61, that is the very point of the discussion, more mass means longer heat up times.

    What PID control system are you referring to? The BZ10 doesn't have a factory PID system.

    The system we are talking about here is my own Australian modification that connects DIRECTLY to the cartridge heaters in the GROUP so it does DIRECTLY AFFECT THE SHOT TEMPERATURE. This is the same system we fit to the Bezzera Strega with great results.

    You are correct that in a normal HX system a PID that controls the boiler temp is relatively ineffective. However this is not the system here.

    If you would like to come and look at the PID system we fit to the Bezzera cartridge heater group heads, then feel free to come and visit our showroom

    Cheers

    Antony
    Casa Espresso
    149 Martin St
    Brighton
    (03) 95962286

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    If I were looking for a new espresso machine totday, I would certainly consider an E61 machine. However after 4 years of use I haven't tired of my unmodded BZ10. The mod that Anthony offers sounds great. Only I haven't found the dead band on the heater to be a source of inconsistency in shot quality, at least not as far as I have been able to taste. (Could be If I hooked up a TC and measured temperatures they would be all over the map but I'm happy with the stock performance). I run a brief stabilizing flush to end the water dance, allow a slight recovery while I prep the coffee and then pull the shot. My gut feel is that proper GDDT technique outweighs the temperature variations on this machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    It's good news that you're getting good brews with the cooling flush.
    I had a machine that needed flushes in the past and that never worked for me because the temp fluctuations drove me bonkers.
    A big benefit of Antony's mod will be better thermal stability and also, no need for cooling flushes.
    If you have a machine that needs a cooling flush read here: https://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html
    The guide above is the bible for machines that run hot.
    Cheers, Paul
    Thanks Paul. Yes, I have spelled that guide many times over, it's a terrific piece of information about HX machines.
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