Results 1 to 24 of 24
Like Tree9Likes
  • 2 Post By Ozklee
  • 2 Post By Ozklee
  • 1 Post By EspressoAdventurer
  • 1 Post By Ozklee
  • 1 Post By Ozklee
  • 1 Post By Ozklee
  • 1 Post By Ozklee

Thread: ECM Giotto copper washers

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Concord West
    Posts
    32

    ECM Giotto copper washers

    Hi all
    I'm currently rebuilding my ECM Giotto Classic & after a full strip down & clean/descale. On the boiler there are copper washers used on the heat exchanger side (top & bottom) that appear to have been crush washers. There is no part number for these that I can find. Will need to buy new ones as the originals can't be re-used as they have been compressed too much & damaged whilst being removed. Can anyone tell me the thickness required so that I can source them from somehwere?

    Also, looks like the top (ID 12.8mm) had two washers, was one a crush washer & the other one a flat one? The bottom (ID16.63mm) appears to be only one crush washer.
    WP_20160331_11_42_52.jpgWP_20160331_11_43_00.jpg
    Here are the washer locations

    Thickness will be important as the fittings will need to be aligned for the pipework to fit correctly & to avoid leaks.

    Thanks for any help
    Peter

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    295
    i did a complete strip down and rebuild on my old ecm giotto premium and ran into the exact same issues as you. Those damn copper washes. As you said, no part numbers, and they do need to be a certain thickness.
    I was lucky enough that work had a stack of different ones and i found a few that worked.
    I would suggest however to get in contact with the distributor of the machine, as i am sure they may be able to source them for you or at least find out which ones are required.

    As you mentioned, thickness is very importent to have all pipes and fittings aligning properly.

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Concord West
    Posts
    32
    Thanks JohnA
    Saw your post on a search, have also sent an email to coffee parts to see if they can help. Did you use crush washers or just standard flat ones? can you remember the thickness you sanded down to?

    JT, it's been an interesting exercise, have already rebuilt the group head.

    Cheers

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    143
    TBH, I wouldn't have though a fraction of a mm difference would have a massive effect on pipe fitment? A crush washer of slightly greater thickness to what's in there should be 'close enough' as I can't imagine these machine are built to such extreame tollernaces?

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    295
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozklee View Post
    Thanks JohnA
    Saw your post on a search, have also sent an email to coffee parts to see if they can help. Did you use crush washers or just standard flat ones? can you remember the thickness you sanded down to?

    JT, it's been an interesting exercise, have already rebuilt the group head.

    Cheers
    sorry mate, was that long ago now i simply cant recall and didnt take notes on that part.
    the distributor for rocket and what was ECM is a sponsor on here i believe, so shouldnt be a problem posting the link to them
    https://espressocompany.com.au/pages/spare-parts

    coffee parts may also be able to help

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Concord West
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by timmyjj21 View Post
    TBH, I wouldn't have though a fraction of a mm difference would have a massive effect on pipe fitment? A crush washer of slightly greater thickness to what's in there should be 'close enough' as I can't imagine these machine are built to such extreame tollernaces?
    Agree, but I don't know what the original thickness was as the washers have been compressed & distorted whilst being removed. An idea of original thickness gives me a starting point in my search :-)

  7. #7
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6
    I made two from 1/2" copper pipe on an anvil.

  8. #8
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,054
    If you make them (or re use old ones - even in different location) don't forget to anneal them as they would be work hardened.

    If they are distorted or squished best to get new ones.

    Cheers

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Concord West
    Posts
    32
    Here are some pictures, before strip down & current work.

    Covers removed ready to begin stripping pipe work
    P1020315.JPG

    Boiler out, ready to remove pump & control box
    WP_20160331_12_48_57_Pro__highres.jpg

    Boiler
    WP_20160331_13_35_44_Pro__highres.jpg

    This is the rebuild under way
    WP_20170617_001.jpg
    Last edited by Ozklee; 21st June 2017 at 03:40 PM. Reason: Fixed picture insertion
    Dimal and MarkMarynaBris like this.

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Concord West
    Posts
    32
    Some more pix

    Replaced both electrolytic caps whilst apart
    WP_20160407_11_33_58_Pro__highres.jpg

    Bits ready to go back in once copper crush washers sourced & installed.
    WP_20170617_002.jpg
    Dimal and MarkMarynaBris like this.

  11. #11
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    15,505
    Quote Originally Posted by Ozklee View Post
    Replaced both electrolytic caps whilst apart
    Probably worth replacing the relays too, if you have time...

    Mal.

  12. #12
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,054
    Good work!

    Cheers

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Concord West
    Posts
    32
    Hi all
    Just a quick update, not much done on the machine front as I've been busy elsewhere. I did however source some teflon washers that I was going to try instead of copper washers, theory being that they do form into blemishes a little, are heat resistant & can be re-used if needed. I then found that Copper Crush washers (the hollow ones) can be sourced from Espresso Company Australia up in Terry Hills. I now have the required washers.

    For information to those rebuilding an older Giotto the ID of the washers are as follows; 13.6mm for the top elbow & 17.1mm for the heat exchange input.

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    138
    for future reference there likely to be imperial such as 9/16 and and 11/16
    Ozklee likes this.

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Concord West
    Posts
    32
    Hi all
    Finally got back to the machine, stupidly applied a little to much when tightening the thermostat & broke off it. Luckily my brother came to the rescue & fixed the big stuff up when I tried to remove the remnants of thermostat.

    Silly old man broke this
    WP_20170827_004.jpg


    Brother to the rescue that fixed what the silly old man did
    V__3C4E.jpg V__1FCD.jpg


    Machine under soak test to make sure no leaks
    WP_20170919_001 v1.jpgWP_20170919_002 v1.jpg

    All looking good with machine switching on/off, pump working fine etc, etc. pressure adjusted to come up to about 1.25. Has been on soak for about 2 hours & not a leak in sight. Will put panels back on polish machine & put back into kitchen soon. Very happy with the process (apart from the thermostat issue).. a very therapeutic strip down/clean & rebuild.

    Cheers
    Peter
    Dimal likes this.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    138
    Peter - great post.
    Whilst on the bench can you test / report on the follwoing pls...
    Some have posted a number of times regarding low / anaemic steam effort.
    So what is the correct Boiler 'Water Level' with the probe correctly adjusted / set?
    Also on first start up (of the day only / generally) the pump gives off a much louder 'metallic' noise
    when refiling the boiler. Is this because (the pump) it is pumping via copper pipe into the boiler ?
    Therefore a higher oscillating sound?
    And yes the pump could be better 'insulated ' against the chassis I assess.

  17. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Concord West
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by EspressoAdventurer View Post
    Peter - great post.
    Whilst on the bench can you test / report on the follwoing pls...
    Some have posted a number of times regarding low / anaemic steam effort.
    So what is the correct Boiler 'Water Level' with the probe correctly adjusted / set?
    Also on first start up (of the day only / generally) the pump gives off a much louder 'metallic' noise
    when refiling the boiler. Is this because (the pump) it is pumping via copper pipe into the boiler ?
    Therefore a higher oscillating sound?
    And yes the pump could be better 'insulated ' against the chassis I assess.
    The water probe was put in using the original tide mark as a reference to the height. There is a post on this forum that goes into the probe height in more depth.
    As to the noise of the pump at first start, I can only assume it's due to the filling of the boiler & the heat exchanger side concurrently. When the fill solenoid (this is on the boiler intake) kicks in this allows water the pass into the boiler as well as still going into the heat exchanger side (no solenoid). Apart from that there would be resonance from the vibrating pump going through everything.

    I put the sides & top back on only to find after a couple of pours through the group I was getting steam, this wasn't happening on the bench when it was naked. Took the sides off again & started checking voltage at various points, pressurestat OK, heating element switches on/off as expected. After numerous pours through the group head I ended up getting steam again. What I did notice is that even though the pump was vibrating it wasn't sucking much water from the container. Think the pump is suspect, will now look at getting another one. Think I'll also pull the controller out again & replace relays as suggested by Dimal in a post earlier.

    Cheers
    Dimal likes this.

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Concord West
    Posts
    32
    In addition to the previous post, if you have the probe all the way down (as long as it's the original length then that should be OK, you can tweak from that. I had mine way to high to start with. Some say start slightly higher & adjust down to get nice dry steam.

    Secondly, can someone please confirm the voltage I'm meant to see on the water level probe. I'm getting 2V AC when the probe is open circuit (not enough water) then drops when circuit established. Must be correct as that side is working. Pump is working but much quieter in the fault condition; 240V to the pump is switched on & off as expected. Also get appropriate 240V switching on the boiler intake solenoid valve. Is the pump on the Giotto classic likely to have gone tired (machine is around 13 years old) or should I be looking at the plastic valve on the pump output as the culprit? Is this valve easily removed to check that it's not getting stuck. Machine works OK when first powered up from cold. Boiler fills & I get water through the group head when up to temp. After a couple of pours & machine is nice & hot then I get what looks like the pump struggling to deliver water to the boiler & to the heat exchanger.

    Cheers
    Peter

  19. #19
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    15,505
    Yep, pumps do wear out and I guess 13 years is a pretty good innings for a little vibe pump.
    Thankfully, they are not expensive and if you get another 13 years from a replacement pump, depreciation per year is peanuts...

    Mal.

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Concord West
    Posts
    32
    New pump & plastic Air Bleeder Valve installed. working fine now. Pump noise is consistent & is is quieter than the old pump. For those experiencing louder pump noise at first then quieter when hot & not turning off when expected then I'd suggest you need a new pump. $49 for pump & $19.90 the the plastic bleed valve is cheap enough. Will keep soak testing tomorrow to make sure all is still OK as I had a slight water leak at the union between the plastic valve & the connector to the teflon tube

    Cheers
    Peter
    Dimal likes this.

  21. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Concord West
    Posts
    32
    Hi all
    Soak testing at the moment & all looks good thus far. For those that like to tinker it looks like the vibe pump can be rebuilt. Pulled my old one apart & looks like a good clean, some new seals (though the original ones looked OK) & maybe it would work again. If you wanted to really go full hog then replacing all the springs is easy enough but where to source would be a problem. It's easier to buy a new one & at $49 it's a no brainer but some (like me) like to pull things apart to see how they work, this pump is very easy to pull apart. Here are some pictures for those interested:

    WP_20170927_001.jpg

    WP_20170927_002.jpg

    WP_20170927_004.jpg
    WP_20170927_006.jpg

    WP_20170927_007.jpg
    Dimal likes this.

  22. #22
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Concord West
    Posts
    32
    Well, machine finally powered up & back in the kitchen where it belongs. Need to fine tune the grind & start making some coffee again. Will have to buy a new grinder (or a decent second hand one) as the one I have is having some problems.

    WP_20170928_001.jpg
    Sides back

    WP_20170928_004.jpg
    Finally back in the kitchen

    WP_20170928_005.jpg
    Grind way too course

    WP_20170928_006.jpg
    Little better

  23. #23
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    6
    hey im doing the same thing to mine at the moment!

    i broke the hot water wand (while assembling back mainly took it apart for a descale), the inside connector copper pipe part, do you (or anyone else?) know anywhere I can buy this from?

    also mine has been tripping the power a bit, takes about 5 goes then it stays on, does this mean I need to do the control box capacitor and relay replace?

    thanks for the write up, it is going to be helpful

  24. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Concord West
    Posts
    32
    Quote Originally Posted by becks View Post
    hey im doing the same thing to mine at the moment!

    i broke the hot water wand (while assembling back mainly took it apart for a descale), the inside connector copper pipe part, do you (or anyone else?) know anywhere I can buy this from?

    also mine has been tripping the power a bit, takes about 5 goes then it stays on, does this mean I need to do the control box capacitor and relay replace?

    thanks for the write up, it is going to be helpful

    Try Coffee parts for any bits and pieces, there is also Espresso company Australia. There is an exploded view of the newer machines on this site. You can also do a google search for this on the web. As an alternative take the broken pipe & fitting to a boiler maker they should be able to repair or make an new one.

    If its tripping power then I wouldn't use it. there must be an exposed wire shorting out in there somewhere. If you are good with electrical stuff shouldn't take you too long to find the problem.

    Cheers
    Peter

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •