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Thread: ECM Giotto copper washers

  1. #1
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    ECM Giotto copper washers

    Hi all
    I'm currently rebuilding my ECM Giotto Classic & after a full strip down & clean/descale. On the boiler there are copper washers used on the heat exchanger side (top & bottom) that appear to have been crush washers. There is no part number for these that I can find. Will need to buy new ones as the originals can't be re-used as they have been compressed too much & damaged whilst being removed. Can anyone tell me the thickness required so that I can source them from somehwere?

    Also, looks like the top (ID 12.8mm) had two washers, was one a crush washer & the other one a flat one? The bottom (ID16.63mm) appears to be only one crush washer.
    WP_20160331_11_42_52.jpgWP_20160331_11_43_00.jpg
    Here are the washer locations

    Thickness will be important as the fittings will need to be aligned for the pipework to fit correctly & to avoid leaks.

    Thanks for any help
    Peter

  2. #2
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    i did a complete strip down and rebuild on my old ecm giotto premium and ran into the exact same issues as you. Those damn copper washes. As you said, no part numbers, and they do need to be a certain thickness.
    I was lucky enough that work had a stack of different ones and i found a few that worked.
    I would suggest however to get in contact with the distributor of the machine, as i am sure they may be able to source them for you or at least find out which ones are required.

    As you mentioned, thickness is very importent to have all pipes and fittings aligning properly.

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    Thanks JohnA
    Saw your post on a search, have also sent an email to coffee parts to see if they can help. Did you use crush washers or just standard flat ones? can you remember the thickness you sanded down to?

    JT, it's been an interesting exercise, have already rebuilt the group head.

    Cheers

  4. #4
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    TBH, I wouldn't have though a fraction of a mm difference would have a massive effect on pipe fitment? A crush washer of slightly greater thickness to what's in there should be 'close enough' as I can't imagine these machine are built to such extreame tollernaces?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozklee View Post
    Thanks JohnA
    Saw your post on a search, have also sent an email to coffee parts to see if they can help. Did you use crush washers or just standard flat ones? can you remember the thickness you sanded down to?

    JT, it's been an interesting exercise, have already rebuilt the group head.

    Cheers
    sorry mate, was that long ago now i simply cant recall and didnt take notes on that part.
    the distributor for rocket and what was ECM is a sponsor on here i believe, so shouldnt be a problem posting the link to them
    https://espressocompany.com.au/pages/spare-parts

    coffee parts may also be able to help

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmyjj21 View Post
    TBH, I wouldn't have though a fraction of a mm difference would have a massive effect on pipe fitment? A crush washer of slightly greater thickness to what's in there should be 'close enough' as I can't imagine these machine are built to such extreame tollernaces?
    Agree, but I don't know what the original thickness was as the washers have been compressed & distorted whilst being removed. An idea of original thickness gives me a starting point in my search :-)

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    I made two from 1/2" copper pipe on an anvil.

  8. #8
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    If you make them (or re use old ones - even in different location) don't forget to anneal them as they would be work hardened.

    If they are distorted or squished best to get new ones.

    Cheers

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    Here are some pictures, before strip down & current work.

    Covers removed ready to begin stripping pipe work
    P1020315.JPG

    Boiler out, ready to remove pump & control box
    WP_20160331_12_48_57_Pro__highres.jpg

    Boiler
    WP_20160331_13_35_44_Pro__highres.jpg

    This is the rebuild under way
    WP_20170617_001.jpg
    Last edited by Ozklee; 21st June 2017 at 04:40 PM. Reason: Fixed picture insertion
    Dimal and MarkMarynaBris like this.

  10. #10
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    Some more pix

    Replaced both electrolytic caps whilst apart
    WP_20160407_11_33_58_Pro__highres.jpg

    Bits ready to go back in once copper crush washers sourced & installed.
    WP_20170617_002.jpg
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  11. #11
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozklee View Post
    Replaced both electrolytic caps whilst apart
    Probably worth replacing the relays too, if you have time...

    Mal.

  12. #12
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    Good work!

    Cheers

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    Hi all
    Just a quick update, not much done on the machine front as I've been busy elsewhere. I did however source some teflon washers that I was going to try instead of copper washers, theory being that they do form into blemishes a little, are heat resistant & can be re-used if needed. I then found that Copper Crush washers (the hollow ones) can be sourced from Espresso Company Australia up in Terry Hills. I now have the required washers.

    For information to those rebuilding an older Giotto the ID of the washers are as follows; 13.6mm for the top elbow & 17.1mm for the heat exchange input.

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    for future reference there likely to be imperial such as 9/16 and and 11/16

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    Hi all
    Finally got back to the machine, stupidly applied a little to much when tightening the thermostat & broke off it. Luckily my brother came to the rescue & fixed the big stuff up when I tried to remove the remnants of thermostat.

    Silly old man broke this
    WP_20170827_004.jpg


    Brother to the rescue that fixed what the silly old man did
    V__3C4E.jpg V__1FCD.jpg


    Machine under soak test to make sure no leaks
    WP_20170919_001 v1.jpgWP_20170919_002 v1.jpg

    All looking good with machine switching on/off, pump working fine etc, etc. pressure adjusted to come up to about 1.25. Has been on soak for about 2 hours & not a leak in sight. Will put panels back on polish machine & put back into kitchen soon. Very happy with the process (apart from the thermostat issue).. a very therapeutic strip down/clean & rebuild.

    Cheers
    Peter
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    Peter - great post.
    Whilst on the bench can you test / report on the follwoing pls...
    Some have posted a number of times regarding low / anaemic steam effort.
    So what is the correct Boiler 'Water Level' with the probe correctly adjusted / set?
    Also on first start up (of the day only / generally) the pump gives off a much louder 'metallic' noise
    when refiling the boiler. Is this because (the pump) it is pumping via copper pipe into the boiler ?
    Therefore a higher oscillating sound?
    And yes the pump could be better 'insulated ' against the chassis I assess.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by EspressoAdventurer View Post
    Peter - great post.
    Whilst on the bench can you test / report on the follwoing pls...
    Some have posted a number of times regarding low / anaemic steam effort.
    So what is the correct Boiler 'Water Level' with the probe correctly adjusted / set?
    Also on first start up (of the day only / generally) the pump gives off a much louder 'metallic' noise
    when refiling the boiler. Is this because (the pump) it is pumping via copper pipe into the boiler ?
    Therefore a higher oscillating sound?
    And yes the pump could be better 'insulated ' against the chassis I assess.
    The water probe was put in using the original tide mark as a reference to the height. There is a post on this forum that goes into the probe height in more depth.
    As to the noise of the pump at first start, I can only assume it's due to the filling of the boiler & the heat exchanger side concurrently. When the fill solenoid (this is on the boiler intake) kicks in this allows water the pass into the boiler as well as still going into the heat exchanger side (no solenoid). Apart from that there would be resonance from the vibrating pump going through everything.

    I put the sides & top back on only to find after a couple of pours through the group I was getting steam, this wasn't happening on the bench when it was naked. Took the sides off again & started checking voltage at various points, pressurestat OK, heating element switches on/off as expected. After numerous pours through the group head I ended up getting steam again. What I did notice is that even though the pump was vibrating it wasn't sucking much water from the container. Think the pump is suspect, will now look at getting another one. Think I'll also pull the controller out again & replace relays as suggested by Dimal in a post earlier.

    Cheers
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  18. #18
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    In addition to the previous post, if you have the probe all the way down (as long as it's the original length then that should be OK, you can tweak from that. I had mine way to high to start with. Some say start slightly higher & adjust down to get nice dry steam.

    Secondly, can someone please confirm the voltage I'm meant to see on the water level probe. I'm getting 2V AC when the probe is open circuit (not enough water) then drops when circuit established. Must be correct as that side is working. Pump is working but much quieter in the fault condition; 240V to the pump is switched on & off as expected. Also get appropriate 240V switching on the boiler intake solenoid valve. Is the pump on the Giotto classic likely to have gone tired (machine is around 13 years old) or should I be looking at the plastic valve on the pump output as the culprit? Is this valve easily removed to check that it's not getting stuck. Machine works OK when first powered up from cold. Boiler fills & I get water through the group head when up to temp. After a couple of pours & machine is nice & hot then I get what looks like the pump struggling to deliver water to the boiler & to the heat exchanger.

    Cheers
    Peter

  19. #19
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Yep, pumps do wear out and I guess 13 years is a pretty good innings for a little vibe pump.
    Thankfully, they are not expensive and if you get another 13 years from a replacement pump, depreciation per year is peanuts...

    Mal.

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