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Thread: Yet another rotary pump conversion

  1. #1
    Member Charlie4coffee's Avatar
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    Yet another rotary pump conversion

    Yes,

    given that I am trying to silence my Gaggia Classic as well, I thought it fit to do this on my Expobar IV as well.
    This is blatantly for sound noise only, I am already aware of the busted myth that rotary pumps do not yield a better result in the cup.

    The pump I have is vibrating and, having never done this, I would like to know what types of pumps and motors I should look into. Which are the quietest ones?
    Also, do you know which parts or fittings should I buy to have everything at hand when I attempt the conversion?

    Cheers for now,
    Charlie

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    Hi Charlie

    I used to work for Expobar as a tech and then running there parts department. To put a rotary pump and motor in a Leva or Minore the water tank set up had to be removed to make room for the pump and motor which means the machine had to be plumbed in to mains water, is that what you are planning to do?

    Regards
    Clinton
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  3. #3
    Member Charlie4coffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Hi Charlie

    I used to work for Expobar as a tech and then running there parts department. To put a rotary pump and motor in a Leva or Minore the water tank set up had to be removed to make room for the pump and motor which means the machine had to be plumbed in to mains water, is that what you are planning to do?

    Regards
    Clinton
    Hi Clinton,

    many thanks for the reply. Yes, that's exactly what I had in mind.
    What I am searching would be advice for the choice of pump and motor I need, as well as fittings to swap my current Ulka EX5 with a rotary one.
    I am a pretty handy person but would like to be sure on what I need before starting to disassemble. I tried to seach online but there is surprisingly not a lot. Would you be able to do a "checklist" for me?

    I remember that, some time ago, whole latte love used to sell a complete conversion kit but apparently that's now impossible to find.

    Cheers,
    Charlie

  4. #4
    Member Charlie4coffee's Avatar
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    Also, one of those rotary pumps which are able to draw water from a reservoir (just in case) would be ideal as well.
    I am pretty sure Procon pumps do that.

  5. #5
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    You could always make a neat small box to sit behind the machine and keep the internal tank.

    The Faema E98 A1 uses a rotary pump that sucks out of the internal tank. It sat below the tank so had a bit of positive head.

    Cheers
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    Hey Charlie

    Any part numbers I use will be for Espresso Bits which is Disave's (Expobar Australia's) parts department.
    As a tech I have used both Procon and Rotoflow rotary pumps and I don't think there is much between them but I use Procon, probably because they are easier to adjust quickly, I have seen not so good pumps in both brands.
    Neither rotary pump is designed to suck, they will do it but you can wreck a pump pretty quick if they suck air for to long, if sucking out of a water drum ideally you get the drum height above the pump so it is gravity feed, if not it is a common practice to put a one way valve on the end of the hose sucking out of the drum to stop the water draining back and the pump running dry, but the one way valve can't be to strong otherwise you put the pump under greater pressure to suck the washer of the seat in the valve, I used to use the Expobar one way valve E517 and cut a bit of the spring off to reduce the pressure needed to open it. I know you are hooking up to mains but I thought I would share this info for anyone else reading.
    So if fitting the pump and motor inside the machine, Expobar use a small diameter RPM motor part number 5556 and originally used a small Rotoflow pump 1036 but the pump didn't last long enough due to a shorter shaft and run out issues in either the pump or motor, so they use the normal size pump E515P (Procon) or E515 (Rotoflow). You will need a 3/8 brass nipple 993 on the inlet side of the pump and a E517 one way valve on the outlet side of the pump , the outlet side of the one way valve has internal thread which is used to put a expansion valve. The vibrating pumps do not have adjustment so what is done is to use a valve to bleed off the excess pressure either back in to the water tank or in to the drain tray, anyhow this valve on the Expobar is also used as an expansion valve on some of there rotary pump machines, so you should be able to use it to put into the one way valve. They set the valve for vibrating pumps at 12bar so as you would know rotary pumps you set at 9bar so you could probably leave the expansion vale set a 12bar. The expansion valve is to let pressure off out of the brew water circuit, as when cold water comes into the circuit when making shot, when you stop the shot you are at a pressure of 9bar and that cold water is now being heated and expands but has no where to go, so the expansion valve then opens at 12bar to release that pressure, it will also open when the machine is heating up form cold. From the outlet of the expansion valve you may be able to use what ever lines are in the machine, it has been 5 years since I was at Expobar so my memory is fading and can't remember the exact set up from the expansion valve to the inlet solenoid/inlet of heat exchanger/brew boiler, but you shouldn't need to touch anything after the expansion valve, maybe just getting a longer hose/pipe to reach the rotary pump.
    To go on to the 3/8 brass nipple on the inlet of the rotary pump you will obviously need water hose, E519 ia a 0.5M braided hose, E520 is a 1.7M braided hose. Before the water hose is up to you, whether you want to fit a filter and pressure limiting valve.
    If you are after quiet operation I would probably use an external motor and pump and mount it in the cupboard below, 9631 is an RPM external motor which has a cooling fan and shroud fitted. Use this with one of the pumps I have mentioned and fit the one way valve to the outlet and then a braided hose going into the machine to the expansion valve, mount the expansion valve somewhere and drain it off into the drip/drain tray. The outlet of the one way valve as well as having a 1/4 internal thread for an expansion valve also has an external 3/8 thread which the braided line will go on, you will probably need to get a 1/4f x 3/8m fitting to fit the expansion valve to the end of the braided hose or alternatively put another 3/8 nipple in the outlet of the pump and put the one way valve with the expansion valve on the end of the braided hose inside the machine. You will then just need to run the motor wiring down in the cupboard for the motor, I often use a standard 10 amp plug and socket down at the motor to make it be able to disconnect. Use the plug on the motor wiring and the socket on the cable from the machine for if you put the plug on the cable from the machine you could have live pins when unplugging, where as the socket connections are all internal in the socket.
    It's hard to know exactly what you will need, there will most likely be one or two small things over looked.
    Don't know how well I have explained all this as it makes perfect sense in my head.

    Have fun
    Clinton
    Last edited by Webb; 22nd August 2017 at 09:39 AM.
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  7. #7
    Member Charlie4coffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Hey Charlie

    Any part numbers I use will be for Espresso Bits which is Disave's (Expobar Australia's) parts department.
    As a tech I have used both Procon and Rotoflow rotary pumps and I don't think there is much between them but I use Procon, probably because they are easier to adjust quickly, I have seen not so good pumps in both brands.
    Neither rotary pump is designed to suck, they will do it but you can wreck a pump pretty quick if they suck air for to long, if sucking out of a water drum ideally you get the drum height above the pump so it is gravity feed, if not it is a common practice to put a one way valve on the end of the hose sucking out of the drum to stop the water draining back and the pump running dry, but the one way valve can't be to strong otherwise you put the pump under greater pressure to suck the washer of the seat in the valve, I used to use the Expobar one way valve E517 and cut a bit of the spring off to reduce the pressure needed to open it. I know you are hooking up to mains but I thought I would share this info for anyone else reading.
    So if fitting the pump and motor inside the machine, Expobar use a small diameter RPM motor part number 5556 and originally used a small Rotoflow pump 1036 but the pump didn't last long enough due to a shorter shaft and run out issues in either the pump or motor, so they use the normal size pump E515P (Procon) or E515 (Rotoflow). You will need a 3/8 brass nipple 993 on the inlet side of the pump and a E517 one way valve on the outlet side of the pump , the outlet side of the one way valve has internal thread which is used to put a expansion valve. The vibrating pumps do not have adjustment so what is done is to use a valve to bleed off the excess pressure either back in to the water tank or in to the drain tray, anyhow this valve on the Expobar is also used as an expansion valve on some of there rotary pump machines, so you should be able to use it to put into the one way valve. They set the valve for vibrating pumps at 12bar so as you would know rotary pumps you set at 9bar so you could probably leave the expansion vale set a 12bar. The expansion valve is to let pressure off out of the brew water circuit, as when cold water comes into the circuit when making shot, when you stop the shot you are at a pressure of 9bar and that cold water is now being heated and expands but has no where to go, so the expansion valve then opens at 12bar to release that pressure, it will also open when the machine is heating up form cold. From the outlet of the expansion valve you may be able to use what ever lines are in the machine, it has been 5 years since I was at Expobar so my memory is fading and can't remember the exact set up from the expansion valve to the inlet solenoid/inlet of heat exchanger/brew boiler, but you shouldn't need to touch anything after the expansion valve, maybe just getting a longer hose/pipe to reach the rotary pump.
    To go on to the 3/8 brass nipple on the inlet of the rotary pump you will obviously need water hose, E519 ia a 0.5M braided hose, E520 is a 1.7M braided hose. Before the water hose is up to you, whether you want to fit a filter and pressure limiting valve.
    If you are after quiet operation I would probably use an external motor and pump and mount it in the cupboard below, 9631 is an RPM external motor which has a cooling fan and shroud fitted. Use this with one of the pumps I have mentioned and fit the one way valve to the outlet and then a braided hose going into the machine to the expansion valve, mount the expansion valve somewhere and drain it off into the drip/drain tray. The outlet of the one way valve as well as having a 1/4 internal thread for an expansion valve also has an external 3/8 thread which the braided line will go on, you will probably need to get a 1/4f x 3/8m fitting to fit the expansion valve to the end of the braided hose or alternatively put another 3/8 nipple in the outlet of the pump and put the one way valve with the expansion valve on the end of the braided hose inside the machine. You will then just need to run the motor wiring down in the cupboard for the motor, I often use a standard 10 amp plug and socket down at the motor to make it be able to disconnect. Use the plug on the motor wiring and the socket on the cable from the machine for if you put the plug on the cable from the machine you could have live pins when unplugging, where as the socket connections are all internal in the socket.
    It's hard to know exactly what you will need, there will most likely be one or two small things over looked.
    Don't know how well I have explained all this as it makes perfect sense in my head.

    Have fun
    Clinton
    Clinton,
    thanks SO MUCH for taking the time to write such detailed instructions for me!!
    I appreciate it very much! I will definitely search for the parts you mentioned. Now I feel more confident in starting this.

    I will try to locate the pump and motor outside the machine, even if this will make it less (much less) transportable.
    Are Fluidotech rotary pumps similar to Procon to adjust or are they more complicated? I have read good reviews about their endurance.

    Thanks so much again,
    Charlie

  8. #8
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    Hey Charlie

    There is stuff all difference really in adjusting them, its just when I am working on a machine in a cafe I am well aware that they want me done as quickly as possible. The Procon adjust with just a flat blade screw driver where as the Fluidotech has a lock nut and a bolt, which wouldn't really make any difference with it mounted externally but when its inside a machine and everything is hot depending where the pump is it is easier to stick a screw driver in than to get two spanners and your hands in there, personal preference really.
    You could probably get most this gear from coffee parts, I am just not up to speed with there parts as I don't use them.
    Bombora would also have most of this gear, the E517 one way valve they stock under that number and as with coffee parts they will have brass fittings, braided lines, pumps and motors as well.
    As far as pumps go you just want to get a flat blade rotary pump with a clamp mount, flat blade is the "drive shaft" and clamp mount is basically a hose clamp which is in %95 of machines there is also a three bolt and two bolt mount with a d drive shaft and rubber coupling, these are in some Cimbali' and Faema's. There is also a plastic coupling you can put between a flat blade pump and motor to help eliminate run out and vibration, Wega use these. There are different litre per hour ratings on rotary flat blade pumps but for home thats not something you would be worried about just as with different wattage motors wouldnt really matter. So just make sure you get a flat blade pump and motor so they pair together, doesn't matter which brand as long as they are both flat blade clamp mount.
    One thing I forgot to mention with the install is that you need to run an earth to the remote motor. From memory the vibrating motors dont have an earth wire, so use a two core and earth cable or buy an extension lead and cut it so you have your plug and socket. The motor will most likely have an earth screw on it, so use that at the motor end and at the machine end there should be an earth bolt on the chassis somewhere which you can use. This is in case you ever had a short to earth on the motor, it will go to earth in the machine and then trip your safety switch in your metre box.
    Yeah not as portable but its just one electrical plug and two pair of shifters and your done, the braided hoses have a cone shaped end and don't require thread tape or anything.
    When you put it together run water into the inlet side of the pump and turn the pump by hand to fill the pump with water for inital start up so its not running dry, the pumps have arrows on the inlet and outlet and an arrow indicating the rotation of the pump.
    Your welcome for the info, I've only just joined the forum to get a an idea of whats going on at the home user end of things, I doubt I will have the time to be this thorough to often. Im considering making my own machine or doing major modifications to my current home machine, could be an interesting post if I have the time to do it.


    Regards
    Clinton
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