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Thread: Gicar relay repair/replacement

  1. #1
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    Gicar relay repair/replacement

    Hi,

    I've been looking at the posts on on the forum regarding Gicar relay replacement and it seems I'm not the only one having issues with these relays. Hopefully you can help me finding a correct alternative relay.
    I have a 5 year old ECM Electronika (first owner) and already replaced the expensive Gicar Control box once. So after some reading on the forum it seems feasible to replace the relays.
    I've desoldered them already.
    https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...tlPOuar9l6GXQx
    https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...SE4wYmWVBHHZQB
    https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...BOhjzsD5ucRZvY




    There are 2x relays on the Gicar board Manufacturer is Hongfa product number is HF115F 018-2HS4 other specs are 18VDC 8A 250VAC.
    I've found the specifications on the Hongfa 115F productsheet.
    I'm trying to cross reference this relay to hopefully a better brand like OMRON, but unfortunately no result. It seems the 18VDC 8A 250VAC, coil resistance 810 Ohm are specific to this relay.
    I'm wondering if it's necessary to meet the exact specifics to this relay or?
    Are there other brand to reconsider?
    I live in The Netherlands and can't source this 115F per piece.
    So hopefully someone can help me out.

    Thanks,
    Willem



    Last edited by wilm; 23rd January 2018 at 06:17 AM. Reason: typo: product number is HF115F

  2. #2
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    18VDC is unusual but a quick search at RS Components comes up with a RT31418 from TE:

    https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/non-l...elays/7181991/
    https://nl.rs-online.com/web/p/non-l...elays/7181991/

    The 18v version is not listed in the data sheet but all the major suppliers seem to have that part number and for AU$3.90 (€ 1,86) it is probably worth a try.


    Gary
    Dimal likes this.

  3. #3
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    Could some ssd relays replace them?

  4. #4
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackster View Post
    Could some ssd relays replace them?
    Probably depends on the number of switching contacts being used...
    Might get a bit crowded in there if multiple sets are used.

    Mal.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazza View Post
    18VDC is unusual but a quick search at RS Components comes up with a RT31418 from TE:

    https://au.rs-online.com/web/p/non-l...elays/7181991/
    https://nl.rs-online.com/web/p/non-l...elays/7181991/

    The 18v version is not listed in the data sheet but all the major suppliers seem to have that part number and for AU$3.90 (€ 1,86) it is probably worth a try.


    Gary
    Hi Gary,
    Thanks for your reply. I've checked RT314018 PCB layout and correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's off vs HF115F 018-2HS4.
    https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1Q...dZmT_u3oVEhQbl

    Please check the link. I've put them beneath each other.
    Could you advice an other relay?

    Thank, Willem

  6. #6
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    Hi Willem,

    Your google link goes nowhere ?

  7. #7
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    Sorry, must be doing something wrong. https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1Q...dZmT_u3oVEhQbl
    Tried to put in simple photos in this thread, but if I try to "insert image" I only able to put in a URL.
    So hopefully it works.
    Willem

  8. #8
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    I get this error

    error.JPG
    To add a local image, in the "insert image" dialogue box select the "from computer" tab, select the file and click "upload file".

    insert image.JPG


    Gary

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    Or if on phone use tinypic
    Although i see some use imagur, but i dont know what its like.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazza View Post
    I get this error

    error.JPG
    To add a local image, in the "insert image" dialogue box select the "from computer" tab, select the file and click "upload file".

    insert image.JPG


    Gary
    I don't get the dialogue box. The only option is the URL. Is this something I need to set up within the forum or..?
    I npw try the tinypic option.

  11. #11
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    You need a few more posts before you can upload a pic.


    Java "Post!" phile
    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

  12. #12
    Senior Member Beanz.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilm View Post
    Thanks for your reply. I've checked RT314018 PCB layout and correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's off vs HF115F
    HF115F The 2H= 2 Form A contact

    RT314018 The 1 = 1 Form C contact

    2 Form A is not common and with an 18V coil even less so

    There are numerous other brands such as TE, Omron, Fujitsu, Zettler, Finder and the list goes on

    I had a similar odd coil voltage on a failed controller relay and had to use a 12V coil to get it up and running but the coil is lower resistance so y0u need to be sure the circuit can drive that. for example a 12V coil can work from 8.4 to 29.4V max coli voltage but it is only 360 Ohm coil Note: Using a Fujitsu FTR K1 for the example not as a suggested direct alternative Product detail - Fujitsu United States

    The following link would be worth searching through for equivalent Power Relays- Active - Fujitsu United States

    Maybe contact the original controller manufacturer and see if you can buy the relay as a spare part

  13. #13
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    Yes, you're right. Finding this specific relay is a pain in the ... I've checked many datasheets of a lot of brands, including the one's you suggested. Nothing .... I'm even trying to locate the original HF115F relay at different distributor sites. No luck. I've been checking out Hongfa official dealers in Europe. No stock on these relays.
    The only relay that comes close is Zettler AZ7422A18D which is about 10 euro = 15 AUD a piece.
    Will continue the search

    Thanks, Willem

  14. #14
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    Do you have a photo of the board ? Just wondering if it really needs the 2 form A contacts or are they wired in parallel.

    Gary

  15. #15
    Senior Member Beanz.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gazza View Post
    Do you have a photo of the board ? Just wondering if it really needs the 2 form A contacts or are they wired in parallel.

    Gary
    I was wondering about that

    Quote Originally Posted by wilm View Post
    The only relay that comes close is Zettler AZ7422A18D which is about 10 euro = 15 AUD a piece.

    Thanks, Willem
    Zettler and Hong Fa are associated companies and their production is in Ningbo China so not surprised they have similar relays but odd the coil resistance is different on the 18V versions

  16. #16
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    I've added the pictures of the board.




    Yes, coil resistance differs, HF115F 018-2HS4 is 810 Ohm Zettler AZ742–2A–18D is 710 Ohm

  17. #17
    Senior Member Beanz.'s Avatar
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    Interesting, the relay I had fail was a Finder Type 40. The armature had rusted / corroded and the oxide was getting between the contacts, I had never seen that before. At first I thought coffee grinds had got inside the case
    Cannot be certain of the pin / track connections from the photos. Is the location RL1 ? Looks like you had fun clearing the plated through holes

  18. #18
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    The Finder relay, works accordingly. But the other 2, position RL1 and RL2 I need to replace.

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    Hi all,

    I want to conclude this thread. I've tried to get in contact with Hongfa in Germany. No reply. I've tried the same with Gicar. No reply.
    I've contacted several Hongfa and Zettler distributors in 4 different countries in Europe. Not one of them had these in stock. Minimum Order Quantity is 1.000. So the only option was buying a new control box, which I did.
    Them machine is alive again.

    Willem

  20. #20
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    Hi Willem,

    My machine also has a faulty control box, it's powering up and can pour a shot, run cleaning cycle etc but the bolier isn't pressurising. I was hoping to replace the relay, but sounds like that might be a waste of time if it's unobtainable!

    Where did you order a new control box from and what did it cost?


    Thanks,

    Matthew

  21. #21
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    Hi Matthew,
    Being based in The Netherlands I'm not sure if you want to pay for shipping and duties. I bought the control box for 130 euro ~ $204 Aud.
    Did you check all other components that could be faulty? Pstat, HX etc.., It might also be the thermoswitch on top of the boiler that was tripped.
    Finding relays is pita. If you succeed and tinkering with these components is not a problem you might be lucky.

    If you need any help, let me know.

    Willem

  22. #22
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    Howdy,

    It was R3 (heater relay) that was faulty and being a more garden variety 12V relay I managed to replace it (amazingly) with one I already had from another project. Let's hope the other two don't go any time soon :-) Now to look into descaling and some other service items to give the machine some TLC.

    Thanks and sorry for the thread hijack .

  23. #23
    Member Lyrebird's Avatar
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    Late to the party again but I was reading this because it looks like I have a blown Gicar board in the VBM I'm fixing.


    The relay problem is relatively easy to fix: if you can't find a relay for that voltage, change the voltage.

    Gicar trace_2

    Cut the trace shown. Solder three short wires to the three pads I've labelled 18V, GND and Relay.

    Make a small 12V regulator board (veroboard will do) using a switching module such as a Recom R78E12 - 0.5, available from RS for about $5. These are pin compatible with a 7812 linear reg but much more efficient so a heatsink isn't required.

    Wire ground to ground, input to 18V, output to relay.

    Now you can substitute the relays with much more common 12V units. If you use one with a coil of about 500 ohms the current draw will be very similar.
    Last edited by Lyrebird; 29th June 2018 at 12:24 PM.

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