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Thread: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

  1. #51
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.


    Thanks TG and MM for sorting that (and thanks Mal for fixing my initial post).

    The original link worked fine for me
    ;)


    Yes, it certainy is an impressive total.
    I look forward to us doing something really good with it now.

  2. #52
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    :o

    $8000...thats 16 tonnes of coffee transaction equivalent.
    Hmm...3.2 kg per CS equivalent since May 2007

    Great progress!

  3. #53
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.


    "are we there yet?"

    In progress, the total keeps building and I will update details when I have some news.


    PS: The post above that said...


    So... if anyone knows of a suitable project let me know
    ...yeilded a total of zero emails in 2 months. Finding a project that isnt going to gobble-up a pile of "management fees" is tougher than I initialy (naively?) thought.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    I for one, can understand why these funds havent found a suitable home yet.

    Identifying one, or more, worthy projects is probably just the tip of the iceberg. Apart from keeping admin costs at a minimum, charities really need a piggy bank if they are to continue to provide support past a one-off donation. And thats just for starters!

    Then, there will always be the knockers - why wasnt it spent on this, or that. Id love to see this thread turn into a repository of recommendations, though I must admit that Ive been scratching my head and honestly wouldnt know where to start. If you have some ideas, Im sure theyd be welcome. ;)

  5. #55
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis link=1173409950/40#58 date=1219716093
    I for one, can understand why these funds havent found a suitable home yet.

    Identifying one, or more, worthy projects is probably just the tip of the iceberg. *Apart from keeping admin costs at a minimum, charities really need a piggy bank if they are to continue to provide support past a one-off donation. *And thats just for starters!

    Then, there will always be the knockers - why wasnt it spent on this, or that. *Id love to see this thread turn into a repository of recommendations, though I must admit that Ive been scratching my head and honestly wouldnt know where to start. *If you have some ideas, Im sure theyd be welcome. ;)
    Yep, that was pretty much what I thought after requesting an update and then reading Andys lack of success in finding a worthy cause.

    I thought there might be something for the CotedIvoire farmers but I couldnt find charities that act in that area strictly in a cocoa or coffee *sense. There are child sponsorship and aid organisations.

    Save the Children operate in Cote dIvoire. Sounds worthwhile to me

    Have a read of this:

    http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/ontv/unreported_world/children+of+ivory+coast+pay+a+heavy+price/471507

  6. #56
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.


    Trace "Save the Children" back to the local arm and you can see their 2007 annual report (which is good, open and fair)
    http://www.savethechildren.org.au/australia/publications/annual_reports.html

    The gotcha is:

    $42,000,000 in income (donations and grants)

    $26,000,000 "funds to projects" (which would also have a high percentage of costs)

    $8,500,000 in "Fundraising costs"
    $5,000,000 in admin overheads

    Who knows how much of the donated money gets to those in need? I would guess you could nearly halve that $26mil so about 25% of every dollar donated gets to the source.

    Faircrack needs to be much closer to 100%

  7. #57
    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Yep. I agree.

    I think we might have to go with the thinking that we might not be able to change the world, but we can make someones world a little better.

    Perhaps we can go down the path of identifying a farm or co-op that we at CS have purchased beans from, and seeing if a donation for infrastructure could help them.
    Perhaps they have a SPECIFIC requirement - like a tractor or piece of processing machinery.
    Maybe even something as simple as new picking baskets or gloves etc.

    Of course, its easy to come and write these things, a LOT harder to make them happen.
    And again, the underlying issue is, how do we know the donation gets used as intended?


  8. #58
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Fair enough but what is the realistic ratio of services provided to admin costs. I imagine getting the money direct to recipients would be extremely expensive given the cost of raising the money and then distributing it.

    I looked at another charity Mercy Ships which provides services rather than funds. Its expenses were quite high in relation to donations but how do you rationalise this?

    I wonder if there is some basic guideline on what the accepted ratio of active funds to costs is. As you say Save the Children is open and honest. Would a fund that claimed 95% charity to 5% admin costs be honest? Some costs would be unavoidable: enabling payments (read bribe) in some corrupt counties would be required. Cost of security to protect aid workers. Cost of living in general.

  9. #59
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.


    I dont really want to debate the merits of other charities and their overheads (even less so in this thread) . They do what they do.

    If I skimmed 75% of of the Faircrack fund to pay for 1st class airfares and accomodation to coffee origin so I could splash $1k at a coffee farm I would have a lot of trouble sleeping at night!

    One of the goals of Faircrack was to get as close to 100% of the raised money on the ground... and that is still a goal.

  10. #60
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Quote Originally Posted by fatboy link=1173409950/60#61 date=1219720477
    Yep. I agree.

    I think we might have to go with the thinking that we might not be able to change the world, but we can make someones world a little better.

    Perhaps we can go down the path of identifying a farm or co-op that we at CS have purchased beans from, and seeing if a donation for infrastructure could help them.
    Perhaps they have a SPECIFIC requirement - like a tractor or piece of processing machinery.
    Maybe even something as simple as new picking baskets or gloves etc.

    Of course, its easy to come and write these things, a LOT harder to make them happen. And again, the underlying issue is, how do we know the donation gets used as intended?

    I think we have to be realistic about this
    We should rely on large and reputable charities that are well established in an area and put up with the fact that a fair amount will necessarily be put aside for making things happen. I just dont know what a fair amount is. You cant just turn up at a farm and hand over a bundle of money.

  11. #61
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Id thought about KIVA http://www.kiva.org
    but hadnt mentioned it because currently there is no one in the coffee business needing funds.

    (Well there is one coffee shop owner with a lever machine that needs to catch up on his car payments.)

    Im sure I have seen some on the site in the past.

    Kiva lends small amounts of money to "entrepreneurs" in poorer countries to establish or grow a business in order to improve their lot in life.

    Kiva is not a charity and the money is paid back at which time the funds can be loaned to another budding Donald Trump.

    Ill put it out there anyway as an option.

  12. #62
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    TG, I think that the type of idea youve mentioned started in India and has been very successful, with the concept spreading to other countries.

    Ive heard that the rate of default is extremely low and has made significant, positive differences for people. One of the great things about it is that the money can be used over and over.

    Nice one!

  13. #63
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis link=1173409950/60#66 date=1219735086
    TG, I think that the type of idea youve mentioned started in India and has been very successful, with the concept spreading to other countries.

    Ive heard that the rate of default is extremely low and has made significant, positive differences for people. *One of the great things about it is that the money can be used over and over.

    Nice one!
    Wasnt it that guy from Bangladesh - Muhammad Yunus started up a bank or something- won a Nobel Prize for the idea.

    Sounds good to me

  14. #64
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    It is at least a scheme that has a good track record with very realistic goals. Maybe it doesnt have to be a coffee grower specifically but someone from within a coffee growing region where we source beans, who is trying to make a go of something.

    Still might be difficult to find a suitable beneficiary though...

    Mal.

  15. #65
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    This might be an option http://www.coffeekids.org , could be worth contacting them for a pitch of their programs? :)

    Auto

  16. #66
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    If it helps at all, I read a story on the site about what happened to the husbands (as a lot of the loans go to women).

    A group of women whod borrowed money told of what happened to the husbands of women who hadnt borrowed from Kiva.

    Most of the men were day labourers.

    The husbands of the women whod borrowed money mostly helped their wives in the new business.
    This caused a shortage of labourers.
    Subsequently the wages of the remaining labourers went up.


  17. #67
    Senior Member Lovey's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Probably a silly question but,
    is The Fund looking to specifically assist a pre-existing organisation, or is it looking to set up some sort of operation to assist someone or a group directly?
    Im not aware of the costs and time involved to set something up, but I can imagine that it would be very time/money consuming.

  18. #68
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Quote Originally Posted by auto link=1173409950/60#69 date=1219750292
    This might be an option http://www.coffeekids.org , could be worth contacting them for a pitch of their programs? :)Auto
    Coffee kids report that they donate use 73% of their funds for services, 15% for fund raising and 12% for admin. Sounds a bit better than Save the Children

    http://www.coffeekids.org/aboutus/financials/

    They also have the small loan facilities as Kiva provides.

  19. #69
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    If an existing charity is selected then so be it. *I imagine though that when you drill down through some of the pie charts presented on various websites and reports, we might find that something labelled as funds for services contains further administrative costs.

    If a list of possibilities comes about along these lines, it would be good to divvy up the work involved making enquiries, so that it doesnt all fall on Andys shoulders (yes, thats an offer).

    While I dont think its set in stone, I think its important to remember the concept that gave birth to Faircrack...

    "It would be great if one day CS members can sponsor a coffee workers co-op, school or medical centre in East Timor or PNG via a 0.50c/kg donation or a 5% of order "warm and fuzzy wuzzy CS tax"

    For a long time I have been keen to setup a "sponsor a plantation" type scheme where we can control how much (how little!) is gobbled-up in admin overheads (which is my main bug-bear with the existing systems)." Andy


    Maybe Im over simplifying, but perhaps a broker could help us contact a PNG or East Timor co-op?

  20. #70
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    well id like to add my $4.50 worth :)

    like everyone else i would hate to see any of the money gobbled up by admin costs at some of the charities

    Fatboy mentioned farmstay as an idea earlier, i wouldnt have a clue where some of these plantations are so maybe this idea just isnt feasible demographically but wouldnt it be great if something could be set up to give them a permanent return i.e. farmstay/ tourist accomodation orientated (maybe not even on the plantation)
    Also i know the money is earning interest at the moment but are there other ways of exploring better returns or maybe this will just complicate things even more, id hate to see the fallout with us sending Andy off to the casino and he gets red and black mixed up ;D

    just another idea, this means more work and i have no idea of whats involved from a legal point of view but how about a monthly raffle with prizes donated by our wonderful sponsors :)

    from what i can see and with the original idea in mind we really need to set something up as a permanent ongoing thing to see any real benefit so thats why we need to look outside of the box as in how the money is initially invested

    anyway that was about $5.50 so see you all in the next Beanbay ;)

    finding someone on the ground over there really holds the key to all this

    Darren

  21. #71
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    As a general rule of thumb here in the US the people/organizations that watch such charitable organizations say if less than 90% of donations are making it into the hands of of those being helped then you should be looking around for a different organization to donate too.

    In discussing a similar venture with Jane Goodall that she is involved in she made a comment that has really stuck with me. The one thing they did that had more impact than anything else was to provide the growers with a simple roaster and cupping lessons. They found that the actual growers had no real grasp on what it was that the specialty market was looking for in a bean, nor what was a good bean/coffee as opposed to a bad bean/coffee. Once the growers had some simple tools at their disposal the quality of the beans, and hence the price they received, went up dramatically.

    Something like this seems like it would be right up our alley. The down side with it is that it would use up some of the funds to pay for sending someone to teach the growers how to cup and grade their coffees.


    Java "Cracking it fair" phile

  22. #72
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile link=1173409950/60#75 date=1220623254
    The down side with it is that it would use up some of the funds to pay for sending someone to teach the growers how to cup and grade their coffees
    I dont see that as a downside, it is a definite plus; money well spent which will reap dividends for the growers.

    The downside is that this someone may be at risk venturing into some of the more unstable countries to help this happen. Also the amount of money this requires would perhaps mean only one country could benefit which is perhaps what you meant.

  23. #73
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile link=1173409950/60#75 date=1220623254
    Something like this seems like it would be right up our alley. The down side with it is that it would use up some of the funds to pay for sending someone to teach the growers how to cup and grade their coffees.
    Would it be worth contacting Jane once more to see if she knows of avenues to utilise that will keep these costs way down? Perhaps there are some very experienced and well known people who donate their time for such causes, might be worth following up... :-?

    Mal.

  24. #74
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.


    We have a couple of exciting announcments in the pipeline...
    watch this space.

    :)

  25. #75
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Freeman link=1173409950/60#78 date=1220679274
    We have a couple of exciting announcments in the pipeline...
    watch this space.

    :)
    Hmmm,

    Excellent.... 8-)

    Mal.

  26. #76
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Cant wait for the news... :)

  27. #77
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Bean Bay sales are already adding to the Fair Crack funds by commissions. Dennis has helped add to the FC by organizing the auctions.

    Id like to continue this good work with the suggestion that those who make successful sales in the For Sale forum should also consider contributing some of the selling price to FC. I think any such contribution, and the size of the contribution, should be completely voluntary, not a rule.

    Yes, I have put my money where my mouth (keyboard?) is and contributed some of the sale of my Gaggia to FC. Not looking for kudos here, just thought I would need to set an example if I am to raise this point.

    Steve

  28. #78
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    "Do as I do not as I say."

    Youll never be a politician with an attitude like that.

  29. #79
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Humour aside, harsh TG. :)
    There was no "Do!" in it, just "Consider"

  30. #80
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Harsh?
    Not when taken as intended.

    Leading by example; good onya!

  31. #81
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Thanks. I did understand your intention but the "Do as I say, not as I do" was the sort of dogma that was promoted in my schoolteacher days.

    Who would want to be a politician anyway? Theyre like scullers - facing one direction while moving in another. </offtopic>

  32. #82
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnaus link=1173409950/80#85 date=1222845507
    Thanks. I did understand your intention but the "Do as I say, not as I do" was the sort of dogma that was promoted in my schoolteacher days.
    Hence my reversal of the saying, which fits nicely with whats being done here.

  33. #83
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Maybe worth considering given the alternative ferralbay option. But put it in the form of "If you make a sale the Faircrack Fund would apprieciate a donation for using the for sale section in the order of 2-5% of the value". Making it a you owe X for listing and Y for selling is a little unfriendly IMO.

  34. #84
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanflying link=1173409950/80#87 date=1222846471
    But put it in the form of "If you make a sale the Faircrack Fund would apprieciate a donation for using the for sale section in the order of 2-5% of the value". Making it a you owe X for listing and Y for selling is a little unfriendly IMO.
    That was mentioned in my suggestion:

    I think any such contribution, and the size of the contribution, should be completely voluntary, not a rule

  35. #85
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    I did see that but maybe a loose guide as to what is a fair thing would save the obvious questions was all I meant.

  36. #86
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1173409950/80#86 date=1222846213
    Hence my reversal of the saying, which fits nicely with whats being done here.
    Sheesh. Youre right - sorry. Not a good week so far.

  37. #87
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Quote Originally Posted by beanflying link=1173409950/80#89 date=1222847835
    I did see that but maybe a loose guide as to what is a fair thing would save the obvious questions was all I meant.
    Fair enough but adding guidelines could start to make it sound obligatory rather than voluntary.

    Andy and Mods: Some suggestions for the For Sale forum rules

    When listing your item, carefully check and Preview it before hitting Post as items in For Sale cannot be modified by you once posted(???)

    When you sell or withdraw the item from sale, let the site moderators (PM link??) know so that the post can be modified.

    OK, last thing you want is more rules (KISS) but I thought these additions might be useful guidelines, and.....

    Faircrack?
    CoffeeSnobs does not charge commission on items sold but why not contribute a small amount of your selling price to the CoffeeSnobs Faircrack fund [<- link here]? Its completely optional but someone somewhere in the world will appreciate the gesture.


  38. #88
    Sleep is overrated Thundergod's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Quote Originally Posted by flynnaus link=1173409950/80#90 date=1222859892
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1173409950/80#86 date=1222846213
    Hence my reversal of the saying, which fits nicely with whats being done here.
    Sheesh. Youre right - sorry. Not a good week so far.
    You should know be well enough by now to look more closely.


    BTW, good choice of words for your Faircrack donation appeal in the post above.

  39. #89
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergod link=1173409950/80#92 date=1222862754
    You should know be well enough by now to look more closely.
    BTW, good choice of words for your Faircrack donation appeal in the post above.
    Youre right. Its one of my pet peeves at work when people dont read emails properly, and

    Thanks

  40. #90
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.


    When listing your item, carefully check and Preview it before hitting Post as items in For Sale cannot be modified by you once posted(???)
    When posting ANYTHING it cannot be edited 24 hours later. Trust me, that is a required feature to keep threads readable. If people go back and edit an old post then all the other replies become hard to read. The for sale area isnt any different.

    When you sell or withdraw the item from sale, let the site moderators (PM link??) know so that the post can be modified.
    I think that happens already, its pretty rare that we have something in the for sale section that is sold without a change in the subject line.

    Faircrack?
    CoffeeSnobs does not charge commission on items sold but why not contribute a small amount of your selling price to the CoffeeSnobs Faircrack fund [<- link here]? Its completely optional but someone somewhere in the world will appreciate the gesture.
    Cute idea but nup. We force a 50c/kg FairCrack fee on all bean sales now (roasted and green), other BeanBay items (books etc) have a bigger loading (which is listed under the item so people know). While I can see where you are coming from I dont think we have to tax or pressure people into donating and I never want FairCrack to be a burden to our little community here.

    The for sale section has always been free for CSrs to buy, sell, swap gear and Im happy if the lower price is passed onto a CS member.

    CSrs are a good hearted lot and many people buy a FairCrack donation from BeanBay for whatever reason they choose... but it is their choice and without pressure.

    Dennis from Cuppacoffee.com.au started a great instant auction last week and after awesome support from other site sponsors it managed to raise nearly $900. Which is really great for the future FairCrack projects. Dennis also raises money for FairCrack outside CoffeeSnobs via his own business and feeds it back into the fund.

    Im sure that there are plenty of people around Oz that would be happy to make a difference but dont know how or where to start.

    If you are looking for ways of building the pot in FairCrack then a donation jar on the office coffee machine with a story about FairCrack might be a better way?


  41. #91
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: CS "fair crack" Coffee.

    Thanks.
    Wasnt aware of the 24 hour limit . Mal and Chris are good at editing items once sold so agreed. The first 2 points were afterthoughts while I was reading the For Sale forum rules.

    Well I hope sellers opt to contribute to FC anyway. No one would need to know if they do or dont contribute. I like your donation jar idea. Sounds like something good to put next to the office coffee machine.

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