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Thread: Double ristretto procedures/stats

  1. #1
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    Double ristretto procedures/stats

    For double ristrettos I use 17gms in a 15gm VST basket for a 25 to 30 mls in 25 to 30 seconds using an E61 machine.

    I'm interested in what others use as their dosage, basket, timing and volume. I know its all about taste and not numbers but I'm enjoying my ristrettos more these days and would like to experiment more.

  2. #2
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    I do 18g in a 20g VST pulling 30mls in about 20 seconds. I find it tastes sweeter. Can't preinfuse properly with my GS3MP so just crank it right up to 9 bar.

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    23 g in a 22 g VST and 26 g of espresso in a total of about 36 seconds (including 20 seconds of 2.5 bar preinfusion)
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    Quote Originally Posted by boontsien View Post
    I do 18g in a 20g VST pulling 30mls in about 20 seconds. I find it tastes sweeter. Can't preinfuse properly with my GS3MP so just crank it right up to 9 bar.
    I wonder what difference it would make if you used an 18gm VST basket instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantfm View Post
    23 g in a 22 g VST and 26 g of espresso in a total of about 36 seconds (including 20 seconds of 2.5 bar preinfusion)
    Wow- do you drink from the cup or just use a knife and fork?????
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melbroaster View Post
    Wow- do you drink from the cup or just use a knife and fork?????
    I used to have it shorter!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantfm View Post
    I used to have it shorter!
    Hey mate, read your post again - no water, just coffee grounds. Gave me a chuckle.

    Enjoy your cuppa (whether with or without water)

    TampIt

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    The ground coffee is not part of that measurement, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shortblackman View Post
    The ground coffee is not part of that measurement, right?
    People making fun of my overly short recipe. 23 g of ground coffee extracting 26 g of espresso.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantfm View Post
    People making fun of my overly short recipe. 23 g of ground coffee extracting 26 g of espresso.
    I have no problem with it. It makes sense to me . I was clarifying that the coffee dose can be the same or more than the weight of the espresso. It still has water in it.

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    Re-reading my post, I didn't clarify it well. My question was aimed at posters / readers who may have been confused.

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    Anyone else using a 15gm VST basket for ristrettos? If so how many grams do you dose?

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    Quote Originally Posted by shortblackman View Post
    Re-reading my post, I didn't clarify it well. My question was aimed at posters / readers who may have been confused.
    All fine from my perspective

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantfm View Post
    People making fun of my overly short recipe. 23 g of ground coffee extracting 26 g of espresso.
    Yowsers, that's not coffee, that's constipation!

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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    Hmmm. Just pulled 26 grams from 22 grams of coffee over 54 seconds. Super gloopy/thick, bitter sweet with serious PUNCH!
    What basket did you use? 54 seconds???? Drinkable???

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantfm View Post
    23 g in a 22 g VST and 26 g of espresso in a total of about 36 seconds (including 20 seconds of 2.5 bar preinfusion)
    I surmise a super fine grind, and a lighter roast (tipped prior to 2nd crack, to ensure no roast flavours, but an emphasis on the sweetness and fruity nature of the beans).
    If done well this yields a sweet and fruity ristretto, with balanced acidity.
    I use a basket (not a VST or EP) that came with my machine and pack 21g into it. Depending on the bean, roast depth and age, I use a long pre-infusion and would stop the shot at anywhere between 25 and 28g. I pull the shot, depending on how it looks and then weigh it to get some context. The result is a sweet and full flavoured ristretto, with great mouthfeel and modest acidity.
    Further context. The beans are carefully chosen and top quality. Predominantly natural. I am extremely careful about acidity, and do not buy any beans that have lemon/grapefruit/jasmine/coriander etc characteristics. Each roasting platform is different, so direct comparisons are difficult. Using less than 21g on my setup does not yield the type of espresso that I like. If the beans have been roasted past the onset of second crack, you will get higher extractions etc, that some people really like, but I (and my family) find the flavours of dk cocoa too dominant.
    It takes a lot of practice to get the roast right, and yes I do burn through a lot of coffee, ensuring the espresso is perfect.
    Last edited by Bosco_Lever; 24th April 2017 at 05:33 PM.

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    Bosco_Lever, you are absolutely right:
    1. Very fine grind;
    2. I often dump my roasts just after completion of first crack.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantfm View Post
    23 g in a 22 g VST and 26 g of espresso in a total of about 36 seconds (including 20 seconds of 2.5 bar preinfusion)
    I knew your version still has water in it! I thought maybe it is just West Oz shorthand - espresso can be "just the coffee grounds at an espresso grind" or the actual "espresso in the cup" - hence my "gave me a chuckle" comment visualising an all coffee ristretto. Sure would be a short, short ristretto shot...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melbroaster View Post
    Wow- do you drink from the cup or just use a knife and fork?????
    Then the above post appeared, so maybe Vic also has the same shorthand.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwantfm View Post
    All fine from my perspective
    ... and mine.

    FWIW, ristrettos are usually between 1:1 and 1:2 coffee / water so you are within "new standard range". Mind you the "Italian standards" have been well shredded by the USA to the point they are almost useless these days.

    I usually prefer balanced 7.2g coffee / 28ml water as an espresso (naked P/f / 7g VST baskets, a "trad Italian" 1:4 ratio) or add 100ml frothed milk as a latte. I sometimes do a 20.6 coffee / 25ml water as a ristretto (naked P/f / 20g VST baskets) for a change. A virtually unrecognisable version of the same roast with "plenty of punch" but few high notes. The next extreme is to haul out my cardamom and Ibrik and do a Turkish (about a 0.5:1 or 0.8:1 ratio).

    That is probably in line with your shorter ristretto.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwantfm View Post
    I used to have it shorter!
    Also worth a try - use "short ristrettos" when making traditional Black Rye Bread (Russian one in my case, with cocoa as well). I use a 22g VST loaded to 23g and only 17g of coffee / water in the final shot at around the 30 second mark (yep, the grind is significantly altered to match). When baking, the flavour cuts through a lot better than a balanced shot (and sure beats hell out of their usual instant coffee version).

    As I said earlier - enjoy your cuppa, all else is irrelevant anyway.


    TampIt
    PS I only drink light or medium roasts these days. I have pulled 90 second ristretto shots with no bitterness (setting up a new roast) - I suspect a dark roast could not ever do that and furnish something you could drink.

  19. #19
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    I find really slow pours still delicious. Never timed it but I reckon some were a fair bit over a minute with way less than 60ml from 22-24g.

    Gushers tend to taste like #%^% (to me).

    Cheers
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    16.1g dose (that's close to max for my 51mm basket), 25.3g yield over about 48secs of a Brazilian that I've fallen in love with named Rose Diamond. It's a very nice Brazilian that is nothing like your average coffee from that country. This batch is roasted slightly darker than I normally do as I roasted a larger batch and went a little too far. Still stopped short of second crack though, so it's a classic espresso roast (Full City/CS10). This espresso was very nice, but I will probably adjust the grind a touch to get about 24g out in about 35-40secs. This will be the sweet spot I reckon as it suits a shorter extraction to avoid over extracting it.

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  21. #21
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    Looks good. I can smell it from here. Sort of in between an espresso and ristretto, that is 1:1.5. That's the way I like it.

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    Agree with you Paul - been playing around with brews like this for the last 6-8 months, after grinding a bit fine once, and watching the resulting brew drip down. Tasted like wow though!
    Now I have a good play around with the lever, like you, keeping it as slow as possible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by barri View Post
    I wonder what difference it would make if you used an 18gm VST basket instead.
    Hey barri. Reason I go a size up is so my grinds don't spill out when grinding. I do have 18, 20 and 22g VSTs and I find different coffees may spill over despite being the same weight. I'm using a sette 270w btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boontsien View Post
    Hey barri. Reason I go a size up is so my grinds don't spill out when grinding. I do have 18, 20 and 22g VSTs and I find different coffees may spill over despite being the same weight. I'm using a sette 270w btw.
    Is there no room to use a PF funnel with a Sette?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Is there no room to use a PF funnel with a Sette?
    There's isn't much room but don't have one to try. Saying that I have had very little mess. Have a artisan smith dosing cup with distributor on the way so that'll work even better
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  26. #26
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    Double ristretto procedures/stats

    Funny thing; on my old Sunbeam 6910/450 setup I couldn't stand very reatricted shots. Anything over about 40 seconds was almost always astringent and unpleasantly overextracted; the giveaway was spots of oil on the surface of the shot as the crema started to collapse.

    On my ECM setup I find restricted shots very pleasant and normally aim for about 35-45g from 22g depending on the bean, in up to 50 seconds including 10-15 of preinfusion (at line pressure now I'm running an under-bench filter). Haven't seen oil spots even on an almost choked shot when dialing in the Comandante.
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    Just played with a longer brew time maintaining it at 1:1 ratio and went to about 32 seconds and the result was amazing with the Neli beans Full, sweet and no bitterness at all
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    Quote Originally Posted by boontsien View Post
    Hey barri. Reason I go a size up is so my grinds don't spill out when grinding. I do have 18, 20 and 22g VSTs and I find different coffees may spill over despite being the same weight. I'm using a sette 270w btw.
    With VSTs I prefer to go the other way. I'd rather put 17gms in a 15gm basket than in an 18gm basket provided I have an adequate amount of headroom below the screen even though it is recommended to stay within 1 gm of the basket size. Stuff recommendations!!!

    Let us know how you get on with the Artisan smith stuff
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by barri View Post
    What basket did you use? 54 seconds???? Drinkable???
    it looks excellent, although nothing like a dubriz, but more like chocolate milk. hope it tasted awesome though

  30. #30
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    Uuuugh... I could so go a double ristretto right now... but it's like 10:34pm... dagnabbit! XD
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    Once I had 3 doubles at a late dinner. I did not sleep one wink, but somehow made it through the next day without feeling tired!?!?!

  32. #32
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    Haha yeah it's funny that! The body can respond in very unpredictable ways, too many factors ay

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    Hmmm. Just pulled 26 grams from 22 grams of coffee over 54 seconds. Super gloopy/thick, bitter sweet with serious PUNCH!
    Looks great!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    ...a 22g IMS basket.
    Not drinkable - delectable !
    I see the x ml of espresso in y second thing as a rule of thumb for newbies.
    Rules are meant to be broken. I got for the slowest extraction I can get without stalling. Everyone should try this out.
    Cheers, Paul
    Interesting Paul, I've always been a 30 second extraction person, 30ml 30 second shot, lungo 90ml 30 second, will have a play around and tighten the grind a little over the next few days and report back.

    I imagine roast level would be a factor as well.

  35. #35
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Attempt one.

    18 grams beans, one notch finer, Lungo, 90 ml 45 seconds.

    Definitely flavours (bitterness) there I don't enjoy, I roast pretty dark and suspect the extra extraction time was the culprit.

  36. #36
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    Hi Barri,

    I have 2 machines and thus do differently on each, as follows.

    2 group ECM Veneziano commercial: 22g in 22gVST basket brewing 22mls in 30seconds
    1 group Lelit Diana dual boiler: 17g in 17g basket brewing 20mls in 25seconds

    Mike K
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    Hi K bean,

    I love it, your experimentation is what we are all about I guess. I actually like a fairly short DBL riss. something like 20-22g of coffee brewed into a 23-25ml shot over 29-35 secs. It really all depends on the coffee as to how best to make it. this ratio would taste horrible with some coffees and great with others. No set rules, only guidlines in my opinion. What do others think?

    Mike K

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    18g in a 15g VST and 20g to 22 g shot in 25 to 30 s
    TDS around 17% (extraction yield around 20%)

  39. #39
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    Yeah I reckon spot on Mike, that's a good point. Experimenting I've found is really important, you can really stumble onto some incredible brews from just giving things a go!
    I've had espressos that have had a 1:2.5-3 brew ratio and have suited the coffee PERFECTLY, really brought out and emphasised the qualities that the bean is seething with, and had such short extractions (I'm talking 15g yield from about 20+grams in...) and have been absolutely knocked out by it..
    So yeah I think we all start out with guidelines which are pretty important in the learning stage, but then can work from and veer a little there as our understanding grows. It's moreso understanding principles of coffee extraction and letting that guide us, and it isn't that principles are things set in stone, but they're guiding information that can help us explore (as opposed to rules).

    Currently I'm using some old (roasted 7 weeks ago!) Honduras beans roasted for filter and extracting espresso/ristretto with them, purely cos I need to use them haha, but also cos it's fun to experiment with what I can get out of them (using a light filter roast as espresso usually being frowned upon). Am tinkering with grind/dose and seeing what brings out more/less sweetness, caramels, body etc, it's very fun!
    And also it can teach how to extract really horrendous coffees and building a knowledge base as to what isn't exactly a pleasant taste in cupping haha.
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  40. #40
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    NIce Simon,

    I in the same boat, trying to use up my left overs before purchasing more. I made a shot with a filter roast yesterday morning before work, let me tell you it wasn't fantastic I had a laugh. But when im rushing i don't have time for filter. In hindsight i should have plunged it, thats pretty quick and can use filter roast.

    Mike K

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    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Haha yeah sometimes it doesn't come out quite as pleasant.. really depends on the particular beans I've found
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