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Thread: how many ML to fully extract a shot of coffee?

  1. #1
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    how many ML to fully extract a shot of coffee?

    Hi everyone,

    I have a manual breville coffee machine, (cant remember model number)

    Just wondering how many ML to fully extract a shot of coffee? i have heard 60ml? but i usually drip 100ml however the colour of the coffee still drips a little brown. am i right to assume that i have not fully extracted a shot of coffee?

    also if i were to do a double shot, is it as simple as doubling the amount of ML drips of coffee

    also is it true that if you drink 2 shots of coffee a day, it will improve your memory?


    thanks
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  2. #2
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovecoffees View Post
    Hi everyone,

    I have a manual breville coffee machine, (cant remember model number)

    Just wondering how many ML to fully extract a shot of coffee? i have heard 60ml? but i usually drip 100ml however the colour of the coffee still drips a little brown. am i right to assume that i have not fully extracted a shot of coffee?

    also if i were to do a double shot, is it as simple as doubling the amount of ML drips of coffee

    also is it true that if you drink 2 shots of coffee a day, it will improve your memory?

    thanks
    Hi lovecoffees, welcome.
    If you can figure out the model number of your machine it will help us guide you better as different machines have different capabilities.

    It depends what you are trying to do to the coffee. By "fully extracted" are you just trying to get your money's worth out of every bean, or are you trying to achieve the best quality shot? Pretty much everyone on this forum is only interested in quality, and I'm going to answer assuming that's what you want.

    Just wondering how many ML to fully extract a shot of coffee?
    also if i were to do a double shot, is it as simple as doubling the amount of ML drips of coffee
    Coffee extraction is all about brew ratios. Weight of ground coffee in to weight of liquid coffee out.
    Different methods use different ratios. Espresso is usually in the range of 1:1 to 1:3, 'standard' espresso is about 1:2. So it depends on how many grams you're putting in. The old way was to measure the volume (ml) of coffee out but the more common way now is weight. By the old standard a single shot was 7-9g of ground coffee in to 25-35ml out in 25-35s. A double shot is 14-18g in to 50-70ml out. Now we would say a single is 7-9g in, 14-18g out, a double is 14-18g in, 28-36g out. (These are guidelines though as taste overrules everything.) Same ratio but double the amounts. Please note that you should not use the same filter basket to do a single and a double shot. Different baskets will have a range of weight of ground beans that they work best in. For example my Breville Dual Boiler comes with a double basket that works best when dosed with 18-19g of ground coffee. Many machines come with different baskets for single and double shots.


    i usually drip 100ml however the colour of the coffee still drips a little brown. am i right to assume that i have not fully extracted a shot of coffee?
    In terms of extraction, you could get more out but it would taste worse. Generally speaking when measured scientifically the extraction percentage should be around 30% I think (but I'm wrong! see TampIt's info below). So a long way from "fully extracted"! Think about it in terms of getting ideas out of a group of people. The first couple of ideas probably won't be any good, then there'll be a bunch of good ideas, and then after a certain point all their good ideas are gone and you could keep forcing them to give you more ideas but they would be terrible ideas. The flavours you get out of coffee work in a similar way. Just because more brown is coming out doesn't mean it should be going in your cup!


    also is it true that if you drink 2 shots of coffee a day, it will improve your memory?
    I have no idea, but I doubt it. I've been drinking at least two shots of coffee a day for a few years now, but I forget the rest of that story. EDIT: Apparently I also forgot the extraction percentage.
    Last edited by level3ninja; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:36 PM. Reason: Info correction

  3. #3
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Awesome explanation 'ninja...

    Mal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    Hi lovecoffees, welcome.
    If you can figure out the model number of your machine it will help us guide you better as different machines have different capabilities.

    It depends what you are trying to do to the coffee. By "fully extracted" are you just trying to get your money's worth out of every bean, or are you trying to achieve the best quality shot? Pretty much everyone on this forum is only interested in quality, and I'm going to answer assuming that's what you want.


    Coffee extraction is all about ratios. Weight of ground coffee in to weight of liquid coffee out.
    Different be methods use different ratios. Espresso is usually in the range of 1:1 to 1:3, 'standard' espresso is about 1:2. So it depends on how many grams you're putting in. The old way was to measure the volume (ml) of coffee out but the more common way now is weight. By the old standard a single shot was 7-9g of ground coffee in to 25-35ml out in 25-35s. A double shot is 14-18g in to 50-70ml out. Now we would say a single is 7-9g in, 14-18g out, a double is 14-18g in, 28-36g out. (These are guidelines though as taste overrules everything.) Same ratio but double the amounts. Please note that you should not use the same filter basket to do a single and a double shot. Different baskets will have a range of weight of ground beans that they work best in. For example my Breville Dial Boiler comes with a double basket that works best when dosed with 18-19g of ground coffee. Many machines come with different baskets for single and double shots.




    In terms of extraction, you could get more out but it would taste worse. Generally speaking when measured scientifically the extraction percentage should be around 30% I think. So a long way from "fully extracted"! Think about it in terms of getting ideas out of a group of people. The first couple of ideas probably won't be any good, then there'll be a bunch of good ideas, and then after a certain point all their good ideas are gone and you could keep forcing them to give you more ideas but they would be terrible ideas. The flavours you get out of coffee work in a similar way. Just because more brown is coming out doesn't mean it should be going in your cup!



    I have no idea, but I doubt it. I've been drinking at least two shots of coffee a day for a few years now, but I forget the rest of that story.

    the machine i have is Breville Professional 800ES Die-Cast Espresso Machine

    for the coffee i am trying to get exactly 2 shots of coffee as i heard in the news that 2 shots of coffee a day improves memory

    i usually fill the basket full ( but im not sure how many grams it is)

    yes, i use a single basket for single shot and double basket for double shot

    also when you say "taste worse" do you mean like watered down and not as strong?

    thanks for the explanation
    Last edited by lovecoffees; 2 Weeks Ago at 07:11 AM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    I never weigh my shots. Do it by volume, must make me old school.

    60ml from 18 grams of coffee is a double or two shots of coffee. But if you get 50ml from 21 grams then that could also be considered two shots.
    100ml is no longer espresso
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    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    Hi lovecoffees, welcome.

    In terms of extraction, you could get more out but it would taste worse. Generally speaking when measured scientifically the extraction percentage should be around 30% I think. So a long way from "fully extracted"! Think about it in terms of getting ideas out of a group of people. The first couple of ideas probably won't be any good, then there'll be a bunch of good ideas, and then after a certain point all their good ideas are gone and you could keep forcing them to give you more ideas but they would be terrible ideas. The flavours you get out of coffee work in a similar way. Just because more brown is coming out doesn't mean it should be going in your cup!

    I have no idea, but I doubt it. I've been drinking at least two shots of coffee a day for a few years now, but I forget the rest of that story.
    G'day level3ninja

    Brilliant description overall, one small technical correction.

    Extraction ratio is actually the amount of coffee solute in the water expressed as a %age.

    A dialled in shot with a trad basket gets around a 15% extraction ratio (above 17% it is undrinkable). Running the shot longer actually drops the extraction ratio (and taste quality even faster!). Running it shorter also drops the extraction ratio.

    Running VST baskets (or true equivalents IF they exist - which I doubt) and a really, really good grinder (often the limiting factor these days) you can increase that to around 22% with the same optimised, balanced shot. A VST shot over 26% using the best grinder I could get my hands on was undrinkable.

    If I could somehow get a balanced 30% extraction I would be delighted...

    TampIt
    PS: the rest was spot on and inspiring to read. Thx.
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    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    I have no idea, but I doubt it. I've been drinking at least two shots of coffee a day for a few years now, but I forget the rest of that story.
    Spot on from ninja, and haha love that .

    Quote Originally Posted by trentski View Post
    I never weigh my shots. Do it by volume, must make me old school.

    60ml from 18 grams of coffee is a double or two shots of coffee. But if you get 50ml from 21 grams then that could also be considered two shots.
    100ml is no longer espresso
    And totally respect old school .

    Yeah play around with how much coffee you're dosing into the basket and make sure to watch the flow/pour itself. It's great to use brew ratios and I've found them incredibly helpful, but even moreso to watch the pour. You may extract a perfect 1:2 flow rate within 25-30s or so, but the shot may have still channelled and not taste very pleasant (and by that I mean too many bitters, too high acidity, too harsh/aggressive, not enough flavour..). That being said, there'll be flavours and extractions that you much prefer, so it comes down to how you prefer to drink the espresso.

    So experiment and see how you go
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  8. #8
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    I used to stop an extraction at the 'blonding point' as I thought it was a good indication of when a shot was 'ok'. I now realise how incredibly flawed this method is due to the amount of variation possible and also how subjective it is.

  9. #9
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    I use both colour and the apparent viscosity of the stream as a guide.
    Has proven pretty reliable over the years...

    Mal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TampIt View Post
    G'day level3ninja

    Brilliant description overall, one small technical correction.

    Extraction ratio is actually the amount of coffee solute in the water expressed as a %age.

    A dialled in shot with a trad basket gets around a 15% extraction ratio (above 17% it is undrinkable). Running the shot longer actually drops the extraction ratio (and taste quality even faster!). Running it shorter also drops the extraction ratio.

    Running VST baskets (or true equivalents IF they exist - which I doubt) and a really, really good grinder (often the limiting factor these days) you can increase that to around 22% with the same optimised, balanced shot. A VST shot over 26% using the best grinder I could get my hands on was undrinkable.

    If I could somehow get a balanced 30% extraction I would be delighted...

    TampIt
    PS: the rest was spot on and inspiring to read. Thx.
    what do you mean with "Running the shot longer actually drops the extraction ratio (and taste quality even faster!)."

    do you mean like tastes watered down and not as strong?

  11. #11
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovecoffees View Post
    what do you mean with "Running the shot longer actually drops the extraction ratio (and taste quality even faster!)."

    do you mean like tastes watered down and not as strong?
    In a word: Yes!


    Java "It will also affect other taste characteristics as well." phile
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  12. #12
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Yes, extraction has a ceiling. Once you've reached max extraction if you add more water you're simply lowering strength.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovecoffees View Post
    the machine i have is Breville Professional 800ES Die-Cast Espresso Machine
    I had one of those for a couple of years. I found that cutting the shot off earlier, both in terms of time and volume, had better tasting results. But that might have been to do with the beans I was using, my skill level at the time, or something else so taste for yourself if it's any better. From memory I would get around 20-25ml in 25-28s. For steaming milk I found it best to remove the thing on the end of the steam wand and just touch the bottom of the tip to the top of the milk in the jug.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovecoffees View Post
    what do you mean with "Running the shot longer actually drops the extraction ratio (and taste quality even faster!)."

    do you mean like tastes watered down and not as strong?
    It's questions like this which demonstrate how poor coffee jargon really is.

    I produced some charts to illustrate extraction rate and espresso concentration to the baristas at my usual cafe. I posted the chart below on Instagram, which demonstrates how the amount of soluble material in the cup increases over time and how the most dramatic change is at the beginning of the shot.

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BKri4BrhA4N/
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  15. #15
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    Great comments everyone, we have technical specky contributions and old school.

    Lovecoffees, you asked the question a few times about, what happens to an over extracted coffee. In my experience (as javaphile alluded to) it not only waters down the flavour but it adds horrible new flavours that ruin the whole drink. If you want a longer drink make a long black, which yiou can try a doublr shot (something like 16-22g ground coffee - 45-60mls shot), then add water to 3/4 of the cup/mug. Just remember the more water you add the weaker the drink will taste.

    In regards to your 100mls shots, this is way too much extraction from my own experience. I also measure in mls always because the cups i use having measurements on them so its just a lot easier to do before work etc. However if i want to get technical i might pull out the scales for a play.

    Mike K

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    Great idea Paul in getting a good source of all the juicy info that I'm sure lots of people want somewhere central to find! I think moreso people want consistency in knowledge, because often there's alot of variation here and there (which can definitely come down to being too attached to certain ways of doing things, opinions etc), so would be good to get that going for sure! Of course there is variation when it comes to experience, but I guess more in terms of a foundation for beginners it's important to have consistent and reliable info.

    Yeah that's a good point. Some of us are more old school with approach- going by rough volume, by eye, by feel, technique, and others more objective- measureables: weight in to weight, yields/ratios, and others mix the two! I think whatever suits you is best, I admire so very much those who don't measure everything (and very much aspire to that one day when I can drop some of this perfectionist stuff within haha..).

    I recently am having a bit of trouble with getting a decent shot out of this new roast recently, and for some strange reason getting frustrated about it, but it may very well just be far too fresh and need more rest! So am more relaxed about it now and learning more as a result.

    In other words, best to not take it far too seriously ay haha.

    But yeah lovecoffees, I guess it's like when extracting coffee, there becomes a point where you've extracted all that you can out of the ground coffee, so any more hot water under pressure that's being forced through there is now overkill! Like level3ninja said about getting ideas from people

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    Wow a great question and such interesting replies! Thanks all for your informative input!
    Who knew a shot of coffee could be so intricately varied in the aim to reach the 'perfect' shot!! Well yes, aside from you CS'ers :-)

    I'm just mastering my own technique and working on the basic 1:2 ratio. It's procuring some great, repeatable shots of coffee which is what I was aiming for (had been rather inconsistent up until recently).

    But whilst I'm happy with the flavour I'm wondering how much better it can be...where I expect the journey of experiementing with variables kicks in, aside from the one key factor...my tastebuds!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    Great thread.

    I'm a huge fan of extracting by colour, not ml or by seconds. This means that I extract by colour, and the ml and seconds are a check for me.

    Read my "understanding extraction" section and try out my "rule of fourths."

    All of my info can be accessed by clicking here

    Cheers, Paul
    On your website you state that we are targeting extraction of ~93% of the soluble material - what is the basis for that?
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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrJack View Post
    On your website you state that we are targeting extraction of ~93% of the soluble material - what is the basis for that?
    .....and how is such an exact target reached using just visual cues?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    .....and how is such an exact target reached using just visual cues?
    Not to mention, it relies on knowledge of how much of the coffee is soluble...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crema_Lad View Post
    Wow a great question and such interesting replies! Thanks all for your informative input!
    Who knew a shot of coffee could be so intricately varied in the aim to reach the 'perfect' shot!! Well yes, aside from you CS'ers :-)

    I'm just mastering my own technique and working on the basic 1:2 ratio. It's procuring some great, repeatable shots of coffee which is what I was aiming for (had been rather inconsistent up until recently).

    But whilst I'm happy with the flavour I'm wondering how much better it can be...where I expect the journey of experiementing with variables kicks in, aside from the one key factor...my tastebuds!!
    I've almost been brought to tears from the ever elusive holy grail of shots when they rarely happen (you know the ones... those 'next level' ones...) ...although tears happen a bit here anyways so that may mean nothing XD
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    Senior Member Crema_Lad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    I've almost been brought to tears from the ever elusive holy grail of shots when they rarely happen (you know the ones... those 'next level' ones...) ...although tears happen a bit here anyways so that may mean nothing XD
    Ha! I hear you! I've been watching the pours rather closely since getting a naked PF, with some self nurturing 'oohs' and 'aahhs'. Only to look up after the excitement to see my wife staring at me with incredulous disdain wondering if I'm on something stronger than caffeine
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    Hahaha!! That's awesome 😅
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