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Thread: Bloody Doughnut!

  1. #51
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    Good morning. This machine gets me out of bed, or is it the challenge of the pour?

    3 shots, 3 similar results. Slightly finer on the grind again.
    5c test on 18g, very slight imprint of coinís edge, outer part of screen touching - it wet the bed there and some grind stuck to the screen. You can really see how much it swells when it gets moisture into it.

    I redid that shot and stuck at that dose for all 3 shots, paying close attention to distribution and even tamping. All three came out very similar, a bit slow for my liking at more 1:1 ratio. Taste was good, just that ristretto intensity.

    The vid shows the spread quicker, but still a little hollow in the middle.

    https://youtu.be/5K7UmeXFkWE
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  2. #52
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    The extraction doesn't look too bad now. Only thing I would check is if your machine is level. If the machine isn't level the natural drip will occur further to the side closest to the ground and make it look a little uneven. I used to get the same thing on my pavoni, as the lever was pulled the whole thing would flex and usually drip from the front.

  3. #53
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
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    Not a perfect pour (if there is such a thing) but pretty bloody good Azzabee - agree with WEBN above, checking the levelling of your machine/s. You should remove the shower screen and check it for damage and dross and check the group seal at the same time, maybe post a pic of them for us?, I remove and clean mine weekly (R58) and chemical backflush monthlyish. I also find some cocktail stick WDT helps distribution when I sometimes experience donutting. Great work mate - you'll get there.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzabee View Post
    Good morning. This machine gets me out of bed, or is it the challenge of the pour?

    3 shots, 3 similar results. Slightly finer on the grind again.
    5c test on 18g, very slight imprint of coinís edge, outer part of screen touching - it wet the bed there and some grind stuck to the screen. You can really see how much it swells when it gets moisture into it.

    I redid that shot and stuck at that dose for all 3 shots, paying close attention to distribution and even tamping. All three came out very similar, a bit slow for my liking at more 1:1 ratio. Taste was good, just that ristretto intensity.

    The vid shows the spread quicker, but still a little hollow in the middle.

    https://youtu.be/5K7UmeXFkWE
    Good looking shot, pretty much fine tuning from this point.
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  5. #55
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    I reckon that was an awesome pour mate, yeah definitely a bit on the slower side (which means it usually takes a bit longer to become a central pour, but it came together really evenly and the colour was beautiful.

    Ah yeah and I took some pics of my puck post-extraction this morning just for reference not that it's that important. You can see a few of those pinholes, and can even see one of my dog's hairs on the puck on the last pic at the 5:30ish point haha (yes... that DOES happen from time to time somehow, they just get everywhere!! XD), and in no way was I unhappy with the shot, tasted great. So spent pucks are just that!
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhatEverBeansNecessary View Post
    The extraction doesn't look too bad now. Only thing I would check is if your machine is level. If the machine isn't level the natural drip will occur further to the side closest to the ground and make it look a little uneven. I used to get the same thing on my pavoni, as the lever was pulled the whole thing would flex and usually drip from the front.
    Quote Originally Posted by noonar View Post
    Not a perfect pour (if there is such a thing) but pretty bloody good Azzabee - agree with WEBN above, checking the levelling of your machine/s. You should remove the shower screen and check it for damage and dross and check the group seal at the same time, maybe post a pic of them for us?, I remove and clean mine weekly (R58) and chemical backflush monthlyish. I also find some cocktail stick WDT helps distribution when I sometimes experience donutting. Great work mate - you'll get there.
    I've never thought about the bench top. Usually kitchen tops are installed level, but I'll grab a level and double check. Good tip.

    I might do a screen removal too, be good for the experience even if everything checks out ok. I have been doing a chemical wash weekly with a blind as recommended by the place of purchase, might drop that back to each month if it doesn't need it as frequently. After I pull my shots for the day I use the brush when flushing to try clean/remove any grind that gets caught up there.

    And thanks for the encouragement.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Good looking shot, pretty much fine tuning from this point.
    Thanks. The words of wisdom from this site have certainly helped.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    I reckon that was an awesome pour mate, yeah definitely a bit on the slower side (which means it usually takes a bit longer to become a central pour, but it came together really evenly and the colour was beautiful.

    Ah yeah and I took some pics of my puck post-extraction this morning just for reference not that it's that important. You can see a few of those pinholes, and can even see one of my dog's hairs on the puck on the last pic at the 5:30ish point haha (yes... that DOES happen from time to time somehow, they just get everywhere!! XD), and in no way was I unhappy with the shot, tasted great. So spent pucks are just that!
    Great post, thanks for the photos. I'm surprised some of my dog's hair doesn't get into the mix too!

    What machine are you using? Your puck looks to be a lot higher in the basket than mine. It looks nice and level too.

    I'm tossing up whether to buy an OCD distributor or one of the cheap Chinese rip offs. I might be an expensive way to eliminate a variable, but I like the idea of it and the speed it can bring to the process. I saw a thread last night where you and others were talking about these but didn't get a chance to read fully. Might try find sometime tonight.

  9. #59
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzabee View Post
    I've never thought about the bench top. Usually kitchen tops are installed level, but I'll grab a level and double check. Good tip.

    I might do a screen removal too, be good for the experience even if everything checks out ok. I have been doing a chemical wash weekly with a blind as recommended by the place of purchase, might drop that back to each month if it doesn't need it as frequently. After I pull my shots for the day I use the brush when flushing to try clean/remove any grind that gets caught up there.

    And thanks for the encouragement.
    Yeah chemical cleans aren't really needed weekly, I do mine monthly. Cafes do it daily due to the sheer amount of coffees they pull, but home users don't pull near as many (but definitely does depend on usage!).
    And that's a good practice to get into. In between shots I just wiggle the blind filter around a bit whilst flushing then a quick wipe with cloth and flush. End of session I do the same but also use the brush up in the seal and screen, the wiggle, and a quick blind filter backflush.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azzabee View Post
    Great post, thanks for the photos. I'm surprised some of my dog's hair doesn't get into the mix too!

    What machine are you using? Your puck looks to be a lot higher in the basket than mine. It looks nice and level too.

    I'm tossing up whether to buy an OCD distributor or one of the cheap Chinese rip offs. I might be an expensive way to eliminate a variable, but I like the idea of it and the speed it can bring to the process. I saw a thread last night where you and others were talking about these but didn't get a chance to read fully. Might try find sometime tonight.
    Haha dog hair goes everywhere, have found it in my espresso too from time to time!

    Have a Profitec Pro 500, and yeah when I tamped it it was much lower in the basket, always looks a bit higher up after extraction. But apparently the puck doesn't 'expand' as such, there's a thread about this I haven't had a chance to look through yet.

    Yeah it's a cool tool and seems to be working well! I don't think it's necessary and depends on your grinder and distribution skill, but yeah I'm finding it saves time, but still experimenting at this stage! I figure that if we have a tool for tamping, having this one makes sense

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    Yeah chemical cleans aren't really needed weekly, I do mine monthly. Cafes do it daily due to the sheer amount of coffees they pull, but home users don't pull near as many (but definitely does depend on usage!).
    In my opinion and personal experience after much experimentation, weekly detergent cleans are beneficial. There's no need to be heavy-handed with the detergent, a tiny amount is all that's necessary (less than a 1/4 teaspoon).

    Why I say this, is because the buildup of varnishes inside the group is not really dependent on the volume of coffee through the group, mostly it is dependent on the oxidation of the coffee oils left behind after pulling a shot. In the heated environment of the group internals, the oxidation process is accelerated and results in the accretion of a rancid varnish layer over the internal surfaces.

    If you use Cafetto or similar more regularly, this varnish layer isn't allowed to accrete to a point where it may become more difficult to remove down the track. After all, how long does it take to do a detergent backflush? Mere minutes expended that will maintain the group internals in pristine condition for life...

    Worth it in my opinion...

    Mal.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    In my opinion and personal experience after much experimentation, weekly detergent cleans are beneficial. There's no need to be heavy-handed with the detergent, a tiny amount is all that's necessary (less than a 1/4 teaspoon).

    Why I say this, is because the buildup of varnishes inside the group is not really dependent on the volume of coffee through the group, mostly it is dependent on the oxidation of the coffee oils left behind after pulling a shot. In the heated environment of the group internals, the oxidation process is accelerated and results in the accretion of a rancid varnish layer over the internal surfaces.

    If you use Cafetto or similar more regularly, this varnish layer isn't allowed to accrete to a point where it may become more difficult to remove down the track. After all, how long does it take to do a detergent backflush? Mere minutes expended that will maintain the group internals in pristine condition for life...

    Worth it in my opinion...

    Mal.
    Ah cheers Mal appreciate the input! Yeah I definitely wasn't aware of the rapidity of buildup, and I guess due to extreme heats going on that it can accelerate that... I stand more learned! Do you still pull through a shot to dump after your weekly chemical cleans Mal? Or just blind backflushes until water is clear?

  12. #62
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    I back flush with water after every use (usually twice a day) and with Cafetto weekly, machine coming up to 10 years old, still running like a Swiss watch.
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    Do you still pull through a shot to dump after your weekly chemical cleans Mal?
    Yes mate, every time...

    Mal.
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  14. #64
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    That latest extraction video looks good, and it sounds like the taste is now there. I would have pulled it about 5 seconds earlier, but I do like a doppio ristretto.

    I can't advise anything on the cleaning powder 'cause my lever doesn't have a way of doing that. I do rattle the portafilter in the group head while flushing after every use though, and give the group head a scrub monthly.

    Greg

  15. #65
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    Hereís something to spin your wheels Azzabee - I made an espresso this afternoon using some Peruvian coffee that I roasted 4 days ago. The roast is quite light, certainly more suited to soft brew and would generally only be ok for espresso after 7-10 days (if at all). The first one I made was an ugly as sin naked pour and reached my desired yield in about 17secs. So I started getting ready to make another one on a finer grind setting, but before I tossed the espresso I had a quick taste and was really surprised as it was really good. Sweet, rounded and not at all sour. But I thought I might be dreaming so I decided to make another shot anyway on a finer grind setting. It made little difference as the naked pour was once again super ugly and I was all done and dusted in 17secs. I wasnít gonna go through that whole rigmarole again so I just drank the espresso and I gotta say it was the best espresso Iíve had in months.
    The lesson here is that those visual cues arenít the be all and end all. Taste should always be the deciding factor. Donít let the sideshow distract you.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Hereís something to spin your wheels Azzabee - I made an espresso this afternoon using some Peruvian coffee that I roasted 4 days ago. The roast is quite light, certainly more suited to soft brew and would generally only be ok for espresso after 7-10 days (if at all). The first one I made was an ugly as sin naked pour and reached my desired yield in about 17secs. So I started getting ready to make another one on a finer grind setting, but before I tossed the espresso I had a quick taste and was really surprised as it was really good. Sweet, rounded and not at all sour. But I thought I might be dreaming so I decided to make another shot anyway on a finer grind setting. It made little difference as the naked pour was once again super ugly and I was all done and dusted in 17secs. I wasnít gonna go through that whole rigmarole again so I just drank the espresso and I gotta say it was the best espresso Iíve had in months.
    The lesson here is that those visual cues arenít the be all and end all. Taste should always be the deciding factor. Donít let the sideshow distract you.
    Ah really great post Leroy, too true, I've had that happen more times than I can count, that's why I always have a little sip of the espresso just in case, even if it was just a horrendous extraction, can be quite surprising what comes out!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Hereís something to spin your wheels Azzabee - I made an espresso this afternoon using some Peruvian coffee that I roasted 4 days ago. The roast is quite light, certainly more suited to soft brew and would generally only be ok for espresso after 7-10 days (if at all). The first one I made was an ugly as sin naked pour and reached my desired yield in about 17secs. So I started getting ready to make another one on a finer grind setting, but before I tossed the espresso I had a quick taste and was really surprised as it was really good. Sweet, rounded and not at all sour. But I thought I might be dreaming so I decided to make another shot anyway on a finer grind setting. It made little difference as the naked pour was once again super ugly and I was all done and dusted in 17secs. I wasnít gonna go through that whole rigmarole again so I just drank the espresso and I gotta say it was the best espresso Iíve had in months.
    The lesson here is that those visual cues arenít the be all and end all. Taste should always be the deciding factor. Donít let the sideshow distract you.
    As Simon said, great post. Iíll definitely keep this in mind when it doesnít come out visually perfect. My shots this morning were nice, but I probably let them go a little longer than I should, aiming for time and volume and disregarding blonding. Iíll post them up so you can see what I mean.

    I still have a slight burnt flavour lingering in the aftertaste. So Iím still thinking my shots are not being extracted evenly. Tomorrow Iíll hopefully find some time to remove the shower screen and inspect.

    I will say though, the shots are nice, but could be better. I havenít got the sweet fruits flavour for a while. Iím also starting to think my pressure is a little high, it hovers at 11bar when extracting. And yes, Iím doing a cooling flush prior.

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    Looking good!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzabee View Post
    I’m also starting to think my pressure is a little high, it hovers at 11bar when extracting. And yes, I’m doing a cooling flush prior.
    Make sure the pressure reading is at the group not the boiler / further back in the system. The pressure at the group my be 9 bar when the boiler is 11 bar. If worried or interested get a gauge that measures at the group so can compare to the gauge on your machine

    check out this thread it helps, I have the gauge currently but be done hopefully at end of weekend.
    Greg Pullman's portafilter pressure gauge on the road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mb21 View Post
    Make sure the pressure reading is at the group not the boiler / further back in the system. The pressure at the group my be 9 bar when the boiler is 11 bar. If worried or interested get a gauge that measures at the group so can compare to the gauge on your machine

    check out this thread it helps, I have the gauge currently but be done hopefully at end of weekend.
    Greg Pullman's portafilter pressure gauge on the road
    Thatís a great idea, thanks for posting. Iíll need to do some reading on how to tweak my brew pressure before I go down this path. But certainly worth doing.

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    I pulled the shower screen just before to check it out and give the hole area an extra good clean. I havenít used the detergent for a week and was surprised at how quickly the crud builds up.

    The screen certainly has a low point through the middle when the screw is torqued down. I tried to simulate this in the photos by pulling the screw until it was firm against the screen. What do you guys think? Is this normal?


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    I typically tighten the screen screw fairly tight, otherwise a lot of water exits around the centre of the screen, in which case it may impinge on the coffee puck at the centre. Having said that, if the coffee has been properly distributed and tamped level, water will still mostly distribute across the surface of the puck, because that is where the flow resistance is.
    If the screen deforms and residue is left at a low point, there is no harm in cleaning behind the screen a bit more often, but with daily water backflushes and PF wiggle-rinsing as well as 4-weekly chemical backflushes, I found that it stays quite clean until it is time to change the group gasket and screen.

    Cheers

  25. #75
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azzabee View Post
    I pulled the shower screen just before to check it out and give the hole area an extra good clean. I havenít used the detergent for a week and was surprised at how quickly the crud builds up.

    The screen certainly has a low point through the middle when the screw is torqued down. I tried to simulate this in the photos by pulling the screw until it was firm against the screen. What do you guys think? Is this normal?

    Yeah thatís fairly normal for that type of shower screen.
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