Results 1 to 31 of 31
Like Tree15Likes
  • 1 Post By redrich2000
  • 2 Post By Yelta
  • 1 Post By redrich2000
  • 2 Post By Yelta
  • 1 Post By redrich2000
  • 2 Post By Jackster
  • 1 Post By Dimal
  • 1 Post By Ronin
  • 1 Post By redrich2000
  • 3 Post By Barry O'Speedwagon

Thread: thick ooze like honey...

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    69

    thick ooze like honey...

    I've just got a new EM7000 which I'm using with a Rocky. Using a 18g Pesado basket. Been playing with it a bit. I am overdosing a bit because the pucks were very watery and sticking to the showerscreen and pouring too fast. I've got it dialed in okay, grinding very fine and doing a 60ml double in around 30-40 seconds. But I'm not getting (and have never gotten with previous machines) that thick honey-like ooze and the crema is never more than 5-7mm on top of a double shot glass.

    I'm looking into re-aquiring a naked PF so I can see more of what's going on. But I wanted to ask in general what the secret is to getting that ooze?

    Edit: current beans are from Coffee parts in Sydney, they're blend, roasted on the 10th.
    Last edited by redrich2000; 23rd January 2018 at 04:02 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member WhatEverBeansNecessary's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    386
    Sounds a bit like you are probably pouring too much volume. I would try aim for more like a 30-40ml shot. 60ml seems a bit high. Your timing appears to be good 30 ish seconds.
    So maybe try a little finer grind and aim for a slower pour.

    Also make sure you have fresh high quality beans. Supermarket stuff is next to impossible to get an oozey pour with decent crema.

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    69
    Okay just made for first naked double. 22g into 18g Pesado basket. Firm tamp. Very nice even pour. Started with multiple well spread spouts, forming into one in the centre after a few seconds. 60ml in almost exactly 30 seconds. Still only 5mm crema on the shot glass.

    Perhaps a fraction fast? I was one grind setting finer this morning and poured way too slow. Perhaps a slightly firmer tamp?
    Maybe this is just the best this machine can do?

  4. #4
    Senior Member WhatEverBeansNecessary's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    386
    I still think that 60ml is a bit much. If you go one clicker finer how much volume do you get out? and what are the beans you are using?

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    50
    Redrich, I cant help, but I'm certainly interested to know how you go.

    For me, the 'rate' of coffee flow certainly reflects the coarseness of the grind... and I can adjust it to give anywhere from gushing coffee, down to slow drips every few second (and anywhere in between). But the liquid is always the consistency of water, it is never a thick/oozy/gooey/warm honey like I've heard espresso described as.

    Maybe I'm doing something wrong, or maybe my expectations of gooiness are just too high.

  6. #6
    Senior Member WhatEverBeansNecessary's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    386
    Beans will have a lot to do with the oozey-ness. Some beans are naturally gushers and some are more oozers.

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    50
    Good to know. But for me it has been happening across half a dozen fresh beans from beanbay. So I think it's more to do with me.

  8. #8
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    639
    Quote Originally Posted by redrich2000 View Post
    I've just got a new EM7000 which I'm using with a Rocky. Using a 18g Pesado basket. Been playing with it a bit. I am overdosing a bit because the pucks were very watery and sticking to the showerscreen and pouring too fast. I've got it dialed in okay, grinding very fine and doing a 60ml double in around 30-40 seconds. But I'm not getting (and have never gotten with previous machines) that thick honey-like ooze and the crema is never more than 5-7mm on top of a double shot glass.

    I'm looking into re-aquiring a naked PF so I can see more of what's going on. But I wanted to ask in general what the secret is to getting that ooze?

    Edit: current beans are from Coffee parts in Sydney, they're blend, roasted on the 10th.
    G'day redrich2000 . Yeah I'd be inclined to go with what's been suggested already, slowing down the pour. If you want really reeeally goopy slow pours, double ristrettos might be more your thing, extracting with as low as 1:1 ratio (so 22g in, 22g out). The mouthfeel is usually unreal, but keep in mind I reckon only certain coffees this suits, so it's worth playing around with this to see.


    Ah and I had a Rocky grinder too, I did find that the steps were a bit large in effect, so to counter that, I had to alter dose as well. Eg change one click finer may result in far too slow a pour, so I lowered the dose by 0.5-1g to compensate, so that it was only a small change in the espresso yield.

    I'd start with going finer in grind, just gradually though.

    Let us know how ya go

  9. #9
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    16
    Great information

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    69
    Okay here's my latest. This was 25g dose tamped firmly. The pour was good, maybe a little slow. I got 30ml in about 45 seconds.

    These are new beans, from Sample Cafe, roasted 22/1.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hi-1BN-ut0&sns=em
    bigdaddy likes this.

  11. #11
    Senior Member WhatEverBeansNecessary's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    386
    Looks good at the start. Nice and thick. There does seem to be a few dead spots where coffee isn't flowing. Are you distributing the coffee grounds evenly? I use a little toothpick to break up the clumps. So maybe you are getting some channeling in the puck?

    Crema looks good though. Not heaps but alright.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    5,793
    Quote Originally Posted by redrich2000 View Post
    Okay here's my latest. This was 25g dose tamped firmly. The pour was good, maybe a little slow. I got 30ml in about 45 seconds.

    These are new beans, from Sample Cafe, roasted 22/1.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hi-1BN-ut0&sns=em
    Looks good to me Redrich, pour and crema look good. (some roasts are crema monsters, others, not so much)

    25 grams into an 18 gram basket is a pretty big dose (almost an ounce of coffee) 45 seconds is quite long, I aim for <> 30 ML in 30 seconds using an 18 gram basket 18 gram dose( yes all of my pours are thick and gloopy) is the puck contacting the shower screen? "because the pucks were very watery and sticking to the shower screen" sounds like it to me, it's a common practice among new machine owners.

    To get close to 30/30 I would leave the grind as is and cut the dose to 20 grams, experiment from there.

    Good luck.
    Dimal and bigdaddy like this.

  13. #13
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    639
    Ah nice, yeah shot came together nicely, mostly even pour. I also find that when I have much slower flowing shots (like ristretto-style) that there almost always dead spots, I can't seem to avoid it, and it doesn't seem to matter too much taste-wise. Normal/faster flowing shots seem to not get as stuck. But still try your best to get the grounds distributed well in the basket for sure.

    And just a note, when people refer to a shot being thick, oozy, honeylike, most of the time they're referring to how the pour looks. Like 'honey off the back of a spoon', and not so much the characteristics of the drink. That being said, of course you can get shots that have this, I've had ones that you could almost chew haha, but not all espressos necessarily have to be thick and have a solid mouthfeel. Usually the way the pour 'should' look is what people are referring to.

    Ah and yeah 25 grams is quite a bit in the basket! Especially for an 18g basket... how does it feel when you're tamping it, really really full or is it okay and sinks quite a bit? And does the group handle lock in place easily or is there a fair bit of resistance?

    Good stuff! How did the shot taste by the way?

  14. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Adelaide, S.A.
    Posts
    173
    Looked good Red, Crema looks OK, pour looks good but I got taught to aim for 30 ml in 30 seconds as a rough guide, depending on a number of issues.

    Did you manage to taste the shot? If so, how did it taste? Was it bitter, sour or OK? IMO...Limited as it may be..It's all about the feel and taste in the mouth.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by bigdaddy; 26th January 2018 at 08:32 PM. Reason: Punctuation.

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    69

    thick ooze like honey...

    There's plenty of room in the basket with that dose, at least 6-8mm below the rim.

    It tasted good. I drink mostly milk coffee so I'm not a great judge, but it tastes like a Cafe shot.

    I'm just aiming for those incredible looking 2/3 crema shots I've seen on YouTube. Probably unrealistic. But it's fun to try.

    Currently slumming in our brick shack in Bilpin drinking instant!
    bigdaddy likes this.

  16. #16
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    639
    Quote Originally Posted by redrich2000 View Post
    There's plenty of room in the basket with that dose, at least 6-8mm below the rim.

    It tasted good. I drink mostly milk coffee so I'm not a great judge, but it tastes like a Cafe shot.

    I'm just aiming for those incredible looking 2/3 crema shots I've seen on YouTube. Probably unrealistic. But it's fun to try.

    Currently slumming in our brick shack in Bilpin drinking instant!
    Haha nice

    If there's plenty of headspace when you lock it in, and it tastes good, great! I'd say those are better to go by rather than how much crema there is. Crema to me is really overrated, and is usually much more coffee-dependent. Pull a shot with a moonsooned Malabar and there'll be insane crema! But it's not necessarily the pinnacle of anything and doesn't mean too much ultimately. You want it not insanely pale, and not really strangely dark and thin.

    Or if you're really keen on that much crema, you can always roast some coffee (or get some roasted within a few hours or a day), and pull a shot within minutes of it being roasted. You'll get loooads of crema XD

  17. #17
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Moonta SA.
    Posts
    5,793
    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    Or if you're really keen on that much crema, you can always roast some coffee (or get some roasted within a few hours or a day), and pull a shot within minutes of it being roasted. You'll get loooads of crema XD
    You could also add about 10% Robusta to your roast for a similar outcome.
    Dimal and simonsk8r like this.

  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    69
    It's not that I'm some crema freak, just that I have associated it with the quality of the shot. But I think I'll concentrate more on ratio from now on.
    Dimal likes this.

  19. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Adelaide, S.A.
    Posts
    173
    "It tasted good. I drink mostly milk coffee so I'm not a great judge, but it tastes like a Cafe shot. "

    Same here I mostly like caps, but often do lates in the morning when I don't have the time for the chocolate, getting going for work

    "Currently slumming in our brick shack in Bilpin drinking instant!"

    A brick shack?...Yoor Looky...When we were yoong and grooing up we had shoe boox (said in the 3 Yourkshiremen accent)... Now instant coffee...Yeah, I get that. I have the same when at work. If that's what you call it... I often think it may pay to get an aeropress and take the small travel hand grinder, coffee scales and some beans with me.

    Looking forward to seeing how you go with your future experimentation.

    Cheers.



  20. #20
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    639
    Quote Originally Posted by bigdaddy View Post

    A brick shack?...Yoor Looky...When we were yoong and grooing up we had shoe boox (said in the 3 Yourkshiremen accent)...

    Hahaha... XD

  21. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Maddington, Perth. Wa
    Posts
    330
    A whole shoe box? We had a piece of cardboard, in the middle of the street.
    simonsk8r and gordons like this.

  22. #22
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Warwick, QLD
    Posts
    15,796
    Love crema...

    Mal.
    simonsk8r likes this.

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    490
    Just saw the vid. I’d say you have overdosed. You have dead spots with no coffee coming out.
    Did you inspect the puck post extraction!
    My guess is there would be dry spots.

    Forget what the gram rating on the basket says and get the dose correct for your machine.
    If it’s sloppy add coffee
    If it’s too hard, reduce the dose.
    You want something that knocks out in one piece easily with no dry spots if broken apart.
    Get the dose correct then work on grinder setting. Start with a 2-1 ratio. Eg. 20 grams dry coffee in with 40 grams of espresso out for a dbl shot. Grams not mls are more consistent.
    This is a great starting point for espresso, which can be fine tuned after
    Dimal likes this.

  24. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    69
    Okay so latest developments. Got my .xx scales today so much more control over dose. I also worked out it's much better to grind into a glass jar and then spoon it into the basket. This means no taking the basket on and off the scales and also I can shake the grounds to break up the clumps. I also learned that tamping with the basket out of the PF is much better for me, easier to tamp flat. Are there any downsides to doing that?

    As a general rule, is it better to grind courser and tamp firmer or grind finer and tamp lightly?

  25. #25
    Senior Member WhatEverBeansNecessary's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    386
    Nope. Tamping with the basket out is better - you can generally get it flatter, but maybe it's an operator thing?

    Other point, usually better for a finer grind and lighter tamp (I have found) for the thick oozey honey like shot. Usually a fine grind and a 'finger' tamp is better.

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    Maddington, Perth. Wa
    Posts
    330
    I grind straight into a jar too.
    The jar is a perfect fit onto top of basket. I shake the jar to break up any clumps, put basket on top and invert whole thing. Can then tap the arrangement till the fines are flush with top of basket then tamp.

    If i do a bad job, i can reinvert, and tip fines out and start again.

  27. #27
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    639
    Quote Originally Posted by WhatEverBeansNecessary View Post
    Other point, usually better for a finer grind and lighter tamp (I have found) for the thick oozey honey like shot. Usually a fine grind and a 'finger' tamp is better.
    Hmm, I wonder if anyone can explain why they've found that, as a few people have found that. Tamping hard makes a lot more sense in terms of it's much easier to be consistent with it (tamp until there's no more resistance, it's alot harder to tamp lightly to the same level every time) and it also helps get rid of further air pockets and fill in the gaps. I've never understood tamping light/grinding finer... just curious...

  28. #28
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    PRL
    Posts
    2,339
    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    Hmm, I wonder if anyone can explain why they've found that, as a few people have found that. Tamping hard makes a lot more sense in terms of it's much easier to be consistent with it (tamp until there's no more resistance, it's alot harder to tamp lightly to the same level every time) and it also helps get rid of further air pockets and fill in the gaps. I've never understood tamping light/grinding finer... just curious...
    In my experience, tamping pressure is the least important of the standard variables...as long as you are consistent. It's not irrelevant but it's the last thing I'd go stuffing around with to fix an apparent problem.
    Dimal, Casa Espresso and Yelta like this.

  29. #29
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Geelong
    Posts
    639
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon View Post
    In my experience, tamping pressure is the least important of the standard variables...as long as you are consistent. It's not irrelevant but it's the last thing I'd go stuffing around with to fix an apparent problem.
    Yeah, it just seems like it's such a difficult variable to control if you go lighter... but of course I'm sure practice can help with that. Makes sense to have that as consistent, and also tamping firmly I reckon can help keep that. I know tamping has come into question and has been dismissed as almost totally unimportant, but I haven't found that. To each their own, but definitely would welcome any more thoughts on light tamping (although off topic, but may be helpful to the OP)

  30. #30
    Senior Member WhatEverBeansNecessary's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Adelaide
    Posts
    386
    Agree with Barry, tamping is the least important factor. As for tamping pressure I am not sure I agree that a light tamp is harder to repeat than a firm one. True the amount you compress the puck in a light tamp more than a harder tamp as a % of pressure applied.

  31. #31
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    69
    Behmor Brazen - $249 - Free Freight
    Iím now dosing 23-24 into 22g basket. I find I prefer the shots when there 26-28 vs 30-32. Less bitterness. Anyone else find that?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •