Haha.. Yeah true I was thinking that regarding the bag being opened... but I guess it may mean less exposure overall but it's so hard to definitively test that, and the rate of degradation.. But I'll try that out at some stage anyways
whatever grinds ya bean (vs floats ya boat)
Haha.. Yeah true I was thinking that regarding the bag being opened... but I guess it may mean less exposure overall but it's so hard to definitively test that, and the rate of degradation.. But I'll try that out at some stage anyways
There is a deflector plate inside the metal funnel which shoots the grounds out the area it does. I believe you can unscrew it, maybe that would allow the grinds to fall more centered out of the funnel. If you end up having a play around let me know what you come up with!
Just an update for anyone listening, got my Quamar Q50P today! Ah it's an awesome little grinder... am still figuring out the ins and outs, but going great.
Was a little confused about the amount of steps between the number adjustments, (sometimes it's 4 clicks between numbers, sometimes it's 5... has anyone else found that or are my basic counting skills dodgy haha..).
Gave it a good clean and filled the hopper. Started on setting number 4 as I had absolutely no idea where to start. I found it didn't dose directly into the centre of the basket so i had to angle it a bit. Here are the shots so far:
1) in: 22g at grind setting 4, yield: 52g in 13s (;D)
2) 22g gr2 y44.3g 20s (this one squirted me DIRECTLY into my right eye haha..)
3) 22g gr1 y8.6g 70s (purged 2 seconds instead of 1 second, which may account for the dramatic change... far too fine obviously haha, had boulders of clumps!)
4) 23g gr2 y40g 28s
This one was finally semi-decent! Was pulling all the shots with a naked portafilter, and even though the numbers look ok for this last one, had a big dead spot in centre of the pour for most of it.
So I'm gonna have to work on distribution. I'm assuming the dead spot meant that it was far too 'dense' in the centre of the puck, so I may dose portafilter 1/2 to 3/4 full, horizontal taps to distribute the grounds around and vertical collapse, then fill the rest.
Whoa... far out am wiiiiired at the moment haha... I didn't drink all the shots but drank half the volume in the first few and all of the last ones.... bit buzzed atm!
Will keep updates going just for fun, please feel free to comment/offer guidance. Am not used to dosing with a doserless, so hints are appreciated! Thanks guys
Ok another update, tried some other beans today, pulled 6 shots, here's how they went: (the way I record results is e.g. 23g gr1.5 y33.3g 30s means: I dosed 23 grams coffee, on grind setting 1.5 on the quamar, yielded 33.3g espresso in 30 seconds)
#Distribution technique: dose 3/4 full, collapse, dose rest, collapse, tamp.
-23g gr1.5 y33.3g 30s (dead spot in centre most of the time, but decent pour otherwise... tasted nice. Will change distribution due to dead spot)
#Distribution technique: grind 3/4 full, vertical collapse, grind rest, horizontal taps til level, tamp.
Ground one notch coarser:
-23g gr2.1 y51g 25s (pour was a bit more central, but strange pour.. aLOT faster... a little sour, okayish flavour..)
#try same again to eliminate chance of this being due to old grinds (I always purge a few grams anyway)
-23g gr2.1 y54.6g 23s (roughly same as last shot.. bit flat in flavour.. piccolo was really nice..)
#sweep chute when changing grind... back to original grind (one notch finer) to see what happens...
*-23g gr1.5 y50g 30s (bit of a dead spot in centre of the pour.. okayish still.. nice flavours. Pretty big variation volume-wise between this and last shot...)
#strange that shot 1 and shot 4 had these VERY different results... maybe the first shot was always going to be dodgy as it needed to get used to it... grind one notch finer
#Distribution technique: grind 3/4 full, horizontal taps to level out, collapse, grind rest, horizontal taps til level, collapse, tamp.
-23g gr1.4 y27g 34s (interesting... maybe because the grounds were more uniform and level in the basket because of the distribution technique that's why it slowed right down... OR the steps are just too large on the grinder???)
#grind one notch coarser
-23g gr1.5 y41g 30s (dead spot at right hand side.. I dosed a bit too much so maybe I slightly compressed that side a little bit when swiping off?? It looked more flattened so to speak...
So..... haha.... at this point I was a bit frustrated... I don't know what's going on... a few theories:
1) The first shot may always be a bit dodgy perhaps, need to purge more before the very first shot maybe?
2) Just need to work on distribution and a level even density of coffee within the basket.
3) The steps on the Quamar are too large.
The coffee I was using for my other post was Campos Superior Blend, and today's was a Columbian bean from Campos, freshly roasted as well on the 25th July (so 8 days postroast) so I wouldn't think it's the coffee that's the issue...
Any help in figuring all this out would be super duper appreciated.... soooo puzzled and scratching the noggin at the moment!
Thanks so much for any assistance at all guys
Last edited by simonsk8r; 2nd August 2017 at 05:40 PM.
I find the first shot of the day to be slightly different if I don't purge first. (Different grinder).
Last edited by level3ninja; 2nd August 2017 at 05:31 PM.
Great, thanks level3ninja, I thought that'd be the case, but I did purge a fair bit at the start... I'm wondering how much I need to purge then, have wasted a fair bit of coffee with excess purging to make sure but I expected this would be the case in getting to know the new grinder...
So maybe because it was the first shot it was wonky.. And I guess shot 4 and 6 were different yields because of distribution technique change...
If you purged before the first shot that most likely won't be it.
You've changed something at almost every step. Why did you change the grind after the first shot? If you're changing distribution technique don't change anything else that shot.
Also it does change grinder to grinder, and I don't know for Quamar grinders, but the amount of putting required for a grind change will play a factor, and you could be chasing your tail a bit if you're making a few rapid changes (i.e. you won't be getting a true sense of what the grinder is actually set at for the first shot or two). If you're changing the setting, don't purge, make a shot or two and see what you think. If it needs significant adjustment repeat. Once it doesn't need significant adjustment I would suggest making at least 4 shots (you should be able to drink these!) And then reassess to see if you still need to change it. The other thing this does is give you a chance to assess the differences from your technique shot to shot.
Two other recommendations:
1. Stick to one bean while you're getting used to the grinder. This will help a lot with reducing the wasted beans because once you've got your head around the grinder you will know roughly what needs doing when you see the first pour from a new bean.
2. If the shots are drinkable only make one small incremental change every few shots. You still get to drink the coffee you're grinding rather than purging it and it will give you a much better idea of how things are going.
Edit: One more thing, the weight of the beans in the hopper plays a part in the fineness of the grind. Keep it fairly consistent while you're getting used to the grinder and over time you'll figure out the upper and lower limits you should keep the beans between.
I changed grind after the first shot as it was a little slow, I was aiming for a brew ratio of 1:2 as a baseline. I slightly changed distribution also because I was getting a dead spot in the naked pour and thought too much was piled in the centre, so tried to correct that.
But that's a great point to change one thing at a time, just wanted to get distribution and a good central pour correct for every shot, but that's a good point, or else I won't know what resulted in what!
Ah ok, so you're saying I'm essentially changing things too much (or just changing a thing in general) from shot to shot, and i should try to just get a few shots in a row on the same setting or so? THEN alter things if it needs adjusting?
So essentially slow it down a bit more and get used to shots at a certain dose/setting/technique, and implement changes a bit slower? (Spend more time at each setting basically!)
Makes sense to me! I drank most of those doubles today and just feel pretty nauseous now haha, so I'll pace myself i think.
And I've ordered 1kg of Andy-roasted Harrar beans which I'm gonna use as a good amount to play with, good idea sticking with the one bean!
Can't tell ya how much I appreciate the help!
(I am also going to experiment with single dosing to see whether it is much different to hopper filling and if it's a consistent method, but one thing at a time, one thing at a time! Haha..)
Last edited by level3ninja; 2nd August 2017 at 08:43 PM.
Ah ok I see what you mean, the amount that i need to purge surely wouldn't be more than 5 grams or so, in the chute itself I've swept that out and weighed it, is usually about 3-4g or so, so may not need to purge a whole double shot. But it is worth a try..
I do want to purge enough to get rid of old grinds, but at the same time don't want to waste so much.. so not sure how much I'd truly need to purge to get this balance.. But might try what you've suggested: change setting, don't purge, but make a proper shot. The shot after that would then be a true representation of that setting.
And when I do purge, I might even try purging less and less for each shot to find the perfect amount that truly needs purging.
Wow I've never written the word 'purge' so much XD
The chute isn't the only place grinds are retained, there will still be some in between the burrs etc all the way to the chute. You may go through a little more coffee now, but by doing it this way you will give yourself a chance to learn how everything behaves and interacts, so you'll waste less long term.
Maybe you've purged it from your system now
That's true there is more retained elsewhere, I'll just have to experiment and find the balance of how much to purge vs how to not waste so much, but true that the more I understand the grinder the less I'll waste.
Yes, hopefully I have haha, and dunno how to purge all the espresso I consumed today ahhmahhgawwwwsh....
I hope you get some sleep tonight after all that 'purging' going on
It’s frustrating that feeling of 'wasting' good coffee, but don’t think of it that way. Each purge or not so great shot is getting you closer to those god shots your hankering for!
And once you get the grinder dialled in and some consistent shots it will be all worth it!!
I recently went through similar with my new Sette 270W and got there in the end thanks to some great feedback from others here like ninja! I’m at the point now where I can easily tweak my grind settings to change beans or doses even and continue to get a 1:2 ratio in 28-30 seconds.
Ah-Mazing how good and how different beans taste when you pull a decent shot that’s not predominantly sour or bitter
So purge away....
Last edited by Crema_Lad; 2nd August 2017 at 09:45 PM.
Thanks so much Crema_Lad, really appreciate that. Has been quite a difficult time of late with other stuff going on and I think the coffee stuff added on extra and got me frustrated, and felt nauseous from all the coffee today haha.. 7 years with one grinder then moving to another is a bit of a learning curve! Will be applying what I learnt from that, but taking it slower I think with this one. And enjoying the process more, great perspective there CL.
Last edited by simonsk8r; 2nd August 2017 at 11:22 PM.
Pulled some shots today, they came out mostly ok, a bit fast. I was actually low on beans so couldn't really fill the hopper, so tried my hand at single dosing (trying to see what results I get compared to hopper filling-dosing)
I purged with 10 beans or so first and swept it all out, and single dosing definitely produced a much faster pour (finally experienced it myself, I won't ask that question anymore haha).
I kept everything the same for all three shots (dose, grind setting and distribution method), except the last shot I tried nutating:
-23g gr1.4 y54.5g 23s (strange fast pour, bit sour)
-23g gr1.4 y49g 23s (similar pour, quite nice flavours in milk)
#change distribution: same everything else, but added in nutation
-23g gr1.4 y42g 27s
Nutating definitely slowed the pour right down and seemed to pour much better.
So lesson here for myself: experiment with keeping everything consistent and change only one variable very slightly (either dose, grind setting, or distribution method).
Also, single dosing seemed to produce a much faster pour when compared to dosing from a hopper full of beans.
I blutacced and stickytaped two hex nuts together I had laying around, popped some blutac on the end and voila!
I tried taping it to the actual push button on the grinder itself but it didn't really work effectively, it kept holding the button down longer even when you take the portafilter away. So I grabbed blutac and I shall stick it to the portafilter itself . Should totally open a shop, "DIY unsexy solutions for coffee problems!" XD
Okay scratch that, found something more sturdy, the plastic cap from a cheap toothbrush I had laying around haha... it measures about 1.5cm long (the amount it extends the portafilter from the button that is). Has a wider surface area so it'll more certainly push the button compared to the hex nuts.
I'll have a play tomorrow and let you know if it's the right distance XD
Toothbrush cover looks sexier than hex nuts .. but I wouldn’t date either, just saying
Haha doesn't it?? Turns out that wasn't the best solution, coffee grounds kept getting in the blutac, rendering it not as errrr... sticky! Not to mention the other end of the blutac sticking to the hot portafilter :S. And the distance was too far, so I turned the hex nuts on their side and using a rubber band to hold in place. Wowza! Until I find a simple magnet block, that'll do haha
Sounds like it'd be easier to replace the button with a longer one
Or, perhaps the button can be adjusted further out...
Appears to be fixed with a hex locknut so perhaps there's an identical one on the back that will facilitate adjustment...
I just tape mine down and use the on/off switch to start/stop the grind.
Thanks guys, yeah wouldn't know how to replace it as in where to find one.. I actually undid that hex locknut and it loosened the button. Was tricky to get back on again, but I actually have a feeling I've pulled the button out a bit further now that I remember... I'll investigate tomorrow!
Okay so an update for those tuning in (sorry.. I feel like I've been posting an insane amount, it's only because I've been quite unwell of late and have had alot of time off work, so being stuck here have gone a bit insane, hope that's okay )
I'll try to not make this an essay post
Whipped out the Harrar beans 7 days post-roast, and pulled 8 shots. This time I really mainly focused on changing the grind as the only variable (the first shot i changed from 20g to 22g only because 20g was too shallow in the basket). Here's how they went:
Distribution remained the same: I taped the push switch down, distributed evenly whilst grinding, 3/4 way collapse, horizontal taps to level, collapse, straight tamp.
-20g gr1.4 y16g 40s (great pour, obviously very slow haha, but thick and delicious)
-22g gr2.3 y42g 20s (horrendous pour)
-22g gr2.3 y42.5g 20s (less spurts, more central pour)
-22g gr2.2 y42g 24s (pretty good pour)
-22g gr2.2 y42.3g 23s (nice pour, few spurts)
-22g gr2.1 y34g 30s
-22g gr2.1 y42g 28s (little harshness)
-22g gr2.1 y37g 28s
All in all a great session, it seems a grind change equals about 4 seconds difference in pour (am not sure what happened with the last shot though which went a bit slower...)
I guess each grind setting needs a little time before it sets in. But much happier with this result
(Also measured total wastage by the end of the session, ended up wasting 59g all up, which makes sense due to grind changes and purging)
Another session (I feel like this is a journal now haha...)
DAY 8 POST-ROAST
#distribute evenly whilst grinding, 3/4 way collapse, little horizontal taps, *adding stockfleth, collapse, straight tamp
-22g gr2.1 y29g 30s (great pour, nice, a little harsh tasting)
-22g gr2.1 y36.6g 30s (pretty good pour, nicer)
-22g gr2.1 y32.7g 30s (little spurts, pretty good pour otherwise)
#Go a bit coarser:
-22g gr2.2 y40g 25s (brighter, much nicer)
-22g gr2.2 y44.5g 23s (went to a nice central pour, then spurts! ??? Still quite nice)
#add nutation to slow down pour and hopefully get rid of channelling spurts...
-latte 22g gr2.2 y50.6g 25s (??????? Pour was a little weird and fast, few spurts... Latte was quite nice though.. only a little bitterness present)
A little frustrated at the strange results.. the thing is I kept everything the same. Am pretty fastidious with keeping technique EXACTLY the same..
I only added nutation because there was clearly some channelling with the spurts that were showing, but I have NO idea why it was a faster pour after nutation... nutation always slows down shots significantly from my experience!
The Harrar beans are 8 days post-roast, so perhaps it still hasn't quite stabilised fully? I'm surely surely hoping this is the case...
Will try again on day 10 or 11 perhaps....
Any thoughts are much appreciated..
As soon as I saw there was a new post here from you I thought, "Ah, another episode of my favourite soap!"
It sounds like your ideal setting is between 2.1 and 2.2, but once the change worked through fully it was too coarse. Try dropping the dose slightly to 21.5g or 21g on 2.1 and see how that goes. Are you measuring with scales with a 0.1g resolution or 1g? If it's 1g that could explain the lack of consistency.
Honestly the differences you're experiencing are within the range of normal for a new (to you) grinder and beans. Nutating is very very difficult to be consistent with. Until you've been working with the grinder and beans at a good consistent setting for a while you're not working from muscle memory as much and won't be as consistent as the finess of espresso can require. The results you're describing are a pretty accurate representation of my experiences with new equipment. I still think you're chasing your tail a little when you change grind settings, or at least not seeing the true change straight away. Make the change, make a few shots, pay attention to them, but ignore the numbers for the first few.
Thanks heaps for the advice!
Hmm, it just seems that it's a big jump between results when changing grind setting, when apparently the steps shouldn't be an issue at all..
I was thinking of dropping the dose, but 22g is actually looking a bit shallow in the basket to be honest, stockflething it was tricky (which usually tells me it's a little shallow), so I'm thinking of slightly upping it to 23g and sticking solely with that, using that as my base dose, and seeing how it goes.
Yes my scales are Hario scales that measure with 0.1g resolution and I measure every dose output, so that can't be the issue.
I really want to eliminate roast freshness/too-freshness as a variable so I'll leave the beans until 12 days post-roast and then have a good go. Some beans can be wildly unpredictable if slightly too fresh (and I am by no means excluding "user-error", it certainly has to be majority of what I'm doing that's affecting results haha)
And regarding nutation that's true, but I've been using nutation for quite a fair number of years and have gotten alot of consistency using it with my old Rocky grinder, I've done back to back shots and it keeps showing time and time that it slows the pour right down and looks far more distributed in the bottomless portafilter pour. Was just quite strange this result...And I'm noticing a few big clumps forming as the grinds fall into the basket, so I'm taking all measures to get rock solid distribution going, but yeah I just want a distribution method that I can stick with that will be a) consistent and easily repeatable and b) Work the best for this grinder and machine to eliminate air pockets/clumps and get even distribution.
I want to simplify it as much as possible, yet if I need to be a bit more diligent with dosing and distribution in order to get evenness in the basket I'm happy to.
Ah and that's really great to know this is not uncommon haha and that it's something bound to happen as I work to figure out the new equipment, and yeah for sure my muscle memory will be not quite there as I learn the new process.
And true I may be expecting too much regarding seeing the true change in grind straight away. Just not sure how long it takes/how much purging would be needed, the changes between grinds was never this long drawn out when I was single dosing with the Rocky..
I do think it's because I was so used to single dosing and being able to change the grind and dose from shot to shot easily that I may be expecting too much with hopper dosing, and yes chasing my tail a bit haha. I would always experiment with low doses/high doses/faster flows etc etc, but I think it's definitely better to treat it like a cafe shot, and just try to work on getting a good consistent shot!
Thanks so much it truly is very appreciated
The steps on the Quamar are indeed large. Even if a whole shot or two is purged through with a new grind setting (which guarantees all the old grind sizes have been expelled), the change in flow is quite large.
Unfortunately before I bought this Grinder there was a bit of mis information posted in this thread (since deleted) by an ex-sponsor. One of the points was "very small" step adjustment. Certainly not.
Its not an issue though, i just tweak my dose by 0.2 - 0.4g to compensate.
PS (unrelated to grinder), I find the initial humidity that gets into a freshly opened bag of beans (even if sealed again soon after) requires me to grind 1 - 2 clicks courser the following day. The change stabilizes though and i'm generally able to keep the same grind setting for a while after this initial adjustment (with slight dose mods every few days).
Hi stralto, thanks for that. Yeah it's interesting that, because before I bought it I contacted a few people who own it asking about the steps (I didn't want it to be like my old grinder with massive differences between steps...), and two people replied saying they never found an issue with the steps and said the increments are quite small and found it easy to make small changes to the pour.
So I'm wondering if it maybe just depends... Am gonna play around. One person said they found they could even leave it in between steps if need be.
But I saw that the increments 'pin' can actually be removed quite easily, do you think this is viable? The collar seems to be easily moved anyway by hand but it doesn't move while grinding and stays pretty stable...
I'll be back!!!
*runs over to play with grinder.....*
*Edit: had a play, and I managed to keep it in the half-step position while the grinder was turned on. I had to be exact with it though as it would slip back up or down into another setting if it wasn't 'propped' properly. Although this was without beans in it so am not sure if that would change things whilst actually grinding..
But even so, keeping the increment pin held down (to simulate it being taken out completely) whilst being on didn't move the collar around at all, so that might be an option... Although again, with beans grinding through this could be a different experience haha, but I'll keep in mind what you said about altering dose slightly as well. Was hoping to avoid this, as that is one thing that prompted me to get the new grinder...
Last edited by simonsk8r; 11th August 2017 at 09:54 AM.
Interesting. Perhaps its difference in perspective / expectation. I came from the Breville Smart Grinder and the increments were tiny!
I happened to have tried removing the pin and converting the grinder to stepless, however when it ran i found the vibrations started rotating the colllar (can't remember if i had beans in or not). The steps are already tightly spaced so even if you went stepless i'm not sure you'd be able to optimize it too much further. Worth a try!
Ah ok really... Yeah interesting, I guess slight alterations in dose isn't too bad, will see how I go in the next session. I'll try not to post essays unless desperate haha
No essay today haha, but just a little DIYing fun! The flexible metal strip across the front of the chute snapped off (probably from me constantly bending it back and forward to clean the chute). I found it really helpful with eliminating static and also in holding back the grinds from shooting out fast, as without it I found it made a bit of a mess haha.
So I pondered a few possibilities, dusted my hands, and bought just some ol 0.9mm wire, cut it up, twisted it round, and viola! Works very well in eliminating mess, and not only that, quite easy to move out of the way to clean the chute (my original plan involved magnets, double sided adhesive strips and slicing up metal sheeting, so this is much simpler haha). I slotted the ends of the wire inside the holes left from the finger guard thingo I removed, seemed to just all fall into place.
Just thought I'd post this for anyone else in a similar predicament, there always seems to be some sort of solution haha.
Just a brief (as if this will really be brief I had a laugh) update, had another session with some new beans. This was mainly to test out how a grind change affects the yield. Results:
(Kept distribution technique bang on consistent throughout)
-21g gr1.4 y37g 27s
-21g gr1.4 y33g 30s
-21g gr1.4 y38.6g 30s
-21g gr1.4g y40g 28s
#coarser to test out grind change
-21g gr1.5g y44.3g 22s
-21g gr1.5 y41.3g 22s
-21g gr1.5 y52.7g 22s
-21g gr1.5 y51.6g 20s
I had tasting notes but left them out, just posting numbers, simple summary was that the first few shots were quite nice, latter not so much.
It really seems fairly conclusive that the steps are just very large on the grinder (unless I'm doing something dramatically silly to account for it, but really don't think so). I'll look more at the last few shots of each grind setting as it would have settled in a bit more.
I'm thinking of using the grind change as a "macro change" to get within the ballpark of where I want the yield, then altering dose as a "micro change".
So my method I think from now on will be:
-Decide on what brew ratio to try (eg 1:1, 1:1.5, 1:1.7, 1:2, 1:2.5)
-Start with standard dose for basket (20g or 21g)
If very far from ratio (10s or 10g or more off):
Change grind setting
If not far off (5s or 5g off):
-Alter accordingly if imbalanced (change brew ratio)