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Thread: Fiorenzato F6 not Grinding Fine Enough

  1. #1
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    Unhappy Fiorenzato F6 not Grinding Fine Enough

    I purchased a used Saeco Hercules which is a rebranded Fiorenzato F6

    I replaced the bearings and burrs.

    However, I am having a heck of a time getting it to grind fine enough.

    i have adjusted the collar to what I believe to be the zero point - (i.e., I can hear the upper and lower burr touching but the motor still spins - with the hopper off and grinder unplugged I can turn it by hand but can feel the friction - if I tighten just a little more it can't be turned by hand.)

    I'm not keen on adjusting the collar any tighter - don't want metal grinds in my coffee


    At this point, the ground coffee is just not fine enough for espresso. I've gone through about 2 pounds of supermarket coffee. I understand that new burrs need to be "seasoned"
    but things don't seem to be improving. Could it be a "seasoning" issue? I would have thought with the burrs touching it would be grinding too fine.

    One thing I should mention is that I bought the burrs on ebay from a seller located in Italy. However, they are definitely not OEM....​they came in very generic packaging.

    I may purchase another set of burrs but wonder if I should just cut my losses...

    I posted here because Fiorenzato seems to have more significant presence in Australia than in North America (I'm located in Canada)

    Any help/thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

    Last edited by techy291; 25th December 2015 at 10:13 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member sprezzatura's Avatar
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    How's your espresso machine running? Maybe your grinder's functioning ok?

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    My espresso machine produces very enjoyable espresso when using beans ground with my Rancilio Rocky. I bought the Saeco/Fiorenzato because I am trying to take it to the next level. FWIW the espresso machine is a Rancilio Tecna DE which I rebuilt.

    When I say that the Fiorenzato is not grinding fine enough I am basing this mostly on the appearance and texture (it looks and feels coarse) of the ground coffee compared to what the Rocky produces. I have attempted to pull a shot with coffee ground with the Fiorenzato but get the predictable watery swill.

  4. #4
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    Welcome "techy291"....

    Is there any chance that the stationary burr has been installed at anything other than perfectly flat against the burr-carrier?
    If a coffee grain or two has been trapped underneath the burr, or the burr has caught up on the side of the rebated section of the burr carrier, this might explain why the burrs can be made to 'touch' but yet are unable to grind fine enough...

    Mal.
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    Agree with mal, also , l remember reading somewhere about a person putting new burrs in , and it was really slow to grind compared to the originals ( don't remember about the quality) , turned out the burrs were a different design to the original and so the guy sourced the proper burrs and all was good....

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    So new burrs it is…here is some background info:

    When I got the grinder, the first thing I did after thoroughly cleaning was to order new burrs. The grinder had been stored in a relatively humid location (a basement) with unground beans in it and ground coffee in the doser, I suspect for years. The coffee in it had attracted moisture (it was even mouldy) and the burrs were in bad shape.

    When the new burrs arrived I compared them to the old - same diameter and thickness, the holes lined up and the burr pattern seemed to be the same from what I could tell given the condition of the old burrs. However, I did notice that when installed, the burrs did not sit flat against either the stationary or rotating burr carrier. The circular ridge on the non grinding side was not quite the correct size - I believe that the ridge on the carrier is supposed to sit inside the ridge on the burr. This resulted in them being about 0.5 mm off being level. I tried grinding with that setup and could not get it fine enough. It also became apparent that the grinder was much too noisy so I decided to replace the bearings. I also thought the bad bearings were contributing to the grinding problem. Incidentally, the machine was manufactured in November of 2006 but I don`t think it saw too much use. I think the bearings failed because it sat unused for so long in that basement, not because of over use.

    The new bearings dramatically reduced the noise level. I attempted to address the ill-fitting burr problem by using shims (in the form of thin plastic strips) to make them as level as possible. Using a micrometer, the thickness of the mounted burr plus the burr carrier is even all around the burr to within 0.10 to 0.15 mm. I had hoped that this would not have been significant enough to matter.

    This is where I am at now – new bearings, new (shimmed) burrs and a grinder than still won’t grind fine enough.

    So I am going to purchase another set of burrs from a different (more legitimate) source.

    I’m going to try to find a local parts supplier so that I can test fit the burrs to the burr carriers before purchasing.

    Thanks for all your responses - I will post the results.

    Greg
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  7. #7
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    G'day Greg...

    From what you've written above, I'd say that a set of new 'original' burrs will fix the problem. When grinding for espresso, you're talking clearances measured in Microns, so you can see why you were still experiencing problems....

    Should be like a new grinder when the new burrs are fitted, after all the work you've done....

    All the best,
    Mal.

  8. #8
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    Thanks for your encouragement

    I have my fingers crossed...
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    Any luck ??

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    I don't have the new burrs yet. I'm located in Toronto, Canada and am waiting for them to be restocked at a local espresso parts supplier. They have a storefront counter and I plan on taking the upper burr carrier with me so I can test fit the burrs before purchasing.

    Based on the part number they provided, the burrs are manufactured by LF which I understand to be a large European manufacturer but I don't know if they are an OEM supplier. My queries to Fiorenzato MC asking for parts information have gone unanswered...

  11. #11
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    Ok , hopefully this will work out for you , maybe they have a picture of the burr you could check out as well ?

    I could take a picture of mine later in the week if that'd help ( it grinds well ) , though l have no idea as to the burrs make that's in it as l only recently purchased it from a cafe that was closing down

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    Thanks for your offer but I don't think i'll know for sure until I have the burrs in hand. The ill-fitting burrs I bought on ebay are VERY similar looking to burrs the grinder came with and I wouldn't be able to tell the difference from a picture.

    FWIW, the ebay listing I used indicates the burrs are suitable for an F6 and a Mazzer Major. I later noticed that the Cross Reference pages on the cafeparts.com website lists different third-party (e.g., LF, Nuova Ricambi) part numbers for the F6 and Major so I'm hopeful that my ebay burrs (which didn't show any manufacturer or part number) don't account for the subtle differences between the two and that using F6 specific burrs will solve my problem.

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    Hi, if you get original burrs and everything is parallel it just has to work ,,,, they're a good grinder and usually give great results ( similar to the Major )

  14. #14
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    Eureka!

    The new burrs arrived yesterday and I am pleased to report that they fit precisely the way they should and that I am able to grind too fine! I am looking forward to calibrating the grinder so that I get just the grind I need.

    When I put up my original post, I didn't realize that the burrs were (supposed to be) manufactured to such fine tolerances and was worried I had a bigger problem. The responders here convinced me the burrs were the problem and they were correct!

    Thanks for all the replies and encouragement.

    Greg
    Last edited by techy291; 13th January 2016 at 11:54 PM.

  15. #15
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    Great news Greg...

    Lots of excellent espresso ahead of you now...

    Mal.

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    Good to hear if you could pm me the details of where you got them that'd be great for future reference

    Cheers

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    mmm…
    I have a Fiorenzato 63mm Doge.. it too was stored for sometime, was very quiet when I got it, but couldn't grind fine enough to pull a shot (where the sunbeam cafe series was previously unchallenged). I shimmed the bottom burr up with stainless washers, to no avail… I bought new burrs from a sponsor here (we can't name names, can we..?), got exactly the same result: too coarse… at the moment I can hear the burrs gently touching, but anything less and the water just runs through the coffee…

    There is so much adjustment on this thing, but it seems largely useless...

  18. #18
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    Apparently the Fiorenzato Doge and Fiorenzato F series machines are manufactured by different companies.

    There is a thread here: When Fiorenzato isnt Fiorenzato?

    In my case replacing the burrs did the trick and the grinder has helped produce some awesome espresso.

    I am not familiar with your grinder, but (assuming your burrs are OEM or equivalent) make sure there is no coffee between the either burr carrier and the bottom of the burr. I found shimming to be an exercise in futility - I don't think a grinder like this should need to be shimmed.

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    Yes, I read of your success and was stumped by the result I got upon replacing the burrs…
    I cleaned everything out with a vaccuum cleaner, a brush and a copper cloth, was pretty happy with the work, just couldn't get a result..
    Strange… at the end of the day it's a pretty simple process: two burrs facing one another, wind them in for a finer grind, out for coarse…..

  20. #20
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    As the OP who posted originally has experienced, ensure that the 'new' burrs you have sourced
    are OEM or of similar quality.
    Your old worn set of Burrs when checked (apart from the built up grunge, dust, moist grinds etc) should feel dull when you wipe your finger
    against the cutting edge. Yes given the description of their condition - swap them out regardless.
    Obv a new set or Burrs in good condition will feel as tho they want to cut you.

    ** Note that a sponsor here ( CoffeeParts) lists 2 seperate versions of the 63mm burr set for the Fioranzato.
    A Left or a Right turn Burr Set.
    Both are the exact same dimensions. So it would seem logical that it could just be possible to be able to fit the wrong set.

    Check your replacement set against the old burrs you have removed to confirm if you have the correct rotation burr set.

    **Just for reference - Fioranzato 'Doge' / and /or Fioranzato F6, other models.
    If you are looking straight on at the Grinder,( Switch Off, Cord out of Power Po
    Remove the Top Burr Carrier / Adjustment Ring from the grinder.
    Now Look at the rotating Lower Burr that remains in the Grind Chamber.
    Look towards the lower outer edge of the burr ( @6 O'Clock).
    Now if you wipe your finger from Left to Right and it is feeling the cutting edge - you have a Right Turn Burr Set!
    Just to double check - Switch the grinder momentarily on/off and observe the rotation direction as it slows.
    GL with it.
    Cheers
    EA
    Last edited by EspressoAdventurer; 16th February 2017 at 08:46 AM.
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  21. #21
    Life-long Learner DesigningByCoffee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EspressoAdventurer View Post

    ** Note that a sponsor here ( CoffeeParts) lists 2 seperate versions of the 63mm burr set for the Fioranzato.
    A Left or a Right turn Burr Set.
    Both are the exact same dimensions. So it would seem logical that it could just be possible to be able to fit the wrong set.

    Check your replacement set against the old burrs you have removed to confirm if you have the correct rotation burr set.
    That could certainly do it!

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    thanks..
    The replacement burrs came from coffee parts, were ordered as "right", upon arrival, they were found to be a direct copy of the existing burrs.
    Was a bit of a process though, you see, upon finding a reference to the Fiorenzato on the coffee parts web site, I rang to enquire about the Doge. The chap on the phone asks the rotation of the machine, I tell him, looking from the top it's marked as clockwise. He says that the burrs are left or right, so i wanted right..? As though it's a question… I pointed out that in answer to his question, the motor has a clockwise rotation, left or right is a linear translation that is seemingly as useful as a chocolate teapot in this situation, so could he just interpret my response to his question as he needed, in order to source the correct item. So he asks me which way the active burr is going, left or right..?
    I said, mate… if I look to 12 o'clock it's going right, if I look to 6 o'clock, it's going left….
    absurd..
    In the end right was ordered...

  23. #23
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    as a follow up:
    I asked the crew that sold me the grinder for any input they might feel relevant, as they seemed to have technicians on site.
    But as they had a few of these grinders, they suggested bringing the unit in and taking another, easy for them....
    I did this yesterday, but didn't get the opportunity to talk to anyone on site, it was just a change over at reception..
    The replacement unit will do the job, but is set to have the burrs pretty well touching….
    All seems odd… the sunbeam cafe series I have here will grind a powder that I can't pull a shot with, the Doge will never be able to do this…
    In the I would have preferred a conversation with a tech, who might have been able to throw some light on things…

    The original post above was pretty much the situation I walked into, which was solved by buying replacement burrs until the unit just worked. But new burrs can't be that bad that they just don't work, can they…? All of the burrs I have had in my hand, in relation to this machine, look, okay.. You could see in the burrs if someone had rocks in their coffee beans and new burrs are clean, the machine marks are evident, the cutting edges are clean and visible..

    dunno…

    Just doesn't seem right to keep buying new burrs until it just works and coffee parts are the only place to buy such things around here anyway, aren't they..?

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    Yep I agree the whole left / right turn thingy is crazy. And takes some previous experience to be confident of identifying what you have before you.
    Prob traces its way back to the whole Family ownership, business carve up issue as described
    in the linked thread in a prev post.
    And thats before you look at how Italian business tends to operate !

    Your Quotes...
    "The replacement unit will do the job, but is set to have the burrs pretty well touching…."

    If thats the case those burrs sound like there also Blunt... fair chance all these grinders came from same cafe's or from similar life / volumes ground thru them. .... So your back to square one....


    "All seems odd… the sunbeam cafe series I have here will grind a powder that I can't pull a shot with, the Doge will never be able to do this… "

    What machine are you dosing into?
    Age of beans?..... G'Teed Roasted Date... on Bag?

    Something here is not adding up.... if this grinder is not performing better than a Sunbeam consumer grinder ( no offence meant ) and I'm not promoting them.... but I'll walk butt naked across the Sydnay Harbour Bridge at peakhour!

    *Just a silly but obvious Q - Has your F/Doge Top Burr Carrier / Adjustment Ring still got the spring loaded Lock Pin and Tab still in place?
    Whilst the Adjustment ring is micrometric it uses a stepped lock pin setup.
    PS *Check the motor rotation direction.... match the new burrs to that.
    Last edited by EspressoAdventurer; 16th February 2017 at 10:31 AM.

  25. #25
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by studoc View Post
    thanks..
    The replacement burrs came from coffee parts, were ordered as "right", upon arrival, they were found to be a direct copy of the existing burrs.
    Was a bit of a process though, you see, upon finding a reference to the Fiorenzato on the coffee parts web site, I rang to enquire about the Doge. The chap on the phone asks the rotation of the machine, I tell him, looking from the top it's marked as clockwise. He says that the burrs are left or right, so i wanted right..? As though it's a question… I pointed out that in answer to his question, the motor has a clockwise rotation, left or right is a linear translation that is seemingly as useful as a chocolate teapot in this situation, so could he just interpret my response to his question as he needed, in order to source the correct item. So he asks me which way the active burr is going, left or right..?
    I said, mate… if I look to 12 o'clock it's going right, if I look to 6 o'clock, it's going left….
    absurd..
    In the end right was ordered...
    The whole rotating right or left issue is a standard that most don't even think about. Take for example the threading on nuts and bolts. They're described/listed as right-handed or left-handed threads. Not clockwise or counter-clockwise. When driving a car and someone tells you to turn right which way do you turn the steering wheel? The vast majority of people with-out even thinking about it would say right, not clockwise. People think more in right and left terms than in clockwise and counter-clockwise. When walking along getting directions from someone if they told you to turn clockwise you'd just look at them and say 'What?'.

    Exacerbating this issue is the loss in general of the usage of the terms clockwise and counter-clockwise in our modern culture as digital takes over ever more from analog and the traditional clock with hands disappears from more and more peoples lives.


    Java "Deasil" phile
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  26. #26
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    In Polish left / right refers to anti/clockwise, they don't have words for anti/clockwise.

    Re grinding fine, some planar burrs need to be almost / just touching to get it fine enough. Don't forget with beans between the burrs they will push them apart.

    Cheers

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile View Post
    When driving a car and someone tells you to turn right which way do you turn the steering wheel? The vast majority of people with-out even thinking about it would say right, not clockwise. People think more in right and left terms than in clockwise and counter-clockwise.
    This is the best analogy in my opinion...
    Most people would understand this I'm sure...

    Mal.

  28. #28
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Gotta weigh in on this very basic concept, which I might add is still in use pretty well world wide..

    I find it difficult to believe in this day and age people are having any difficulty with such a simple concept.

    Most dial/rotary gauges on our much loved espresso machines rotate clockwise as the machine heats and of course anti/counter clockwise as they cool.

    In Oz car wheels rotate clockwise when viewed from the driver side, anti when viewed from passenger side.

    The volume control on most radio's etc move clockwise to increase volume, water taps and valves usually rotate counter clockwise to open, clockwise to close, it really is quite simple and doesn't need a lot of brain power to figure out.

    Compass dials read clockwise, starting at 1 and progressing in a clockwise direction numerically to 360.

    The Scientific American has no problem with it here https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...-finally-sett/

    And finally an article from an American children's magazine explaining this incredibly complex subject.
    Science :: How Things Work ::

    Perhaps it's an Aussie thing.


    Clockwise

    Counter clockwise

  29. #29
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    In Oz car wheels rotate clockwise when viewed from the driver side, anti when viewed from passenger side
    Not in any car I've been a passenger in but mind you, I generally sit inside the car facing forward, not on the bonnet(hood) looking at the driver....

    Pretty sure JP (and I) are referring to the Steering Wheel...

    Mal.

  30. #30
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post

    Pretty sure JP (and I) are referring to the Steering Wheel...

    Mal.
    I'm pretty sure you were too.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by EspressoAdventurer View Post

    Something here is not adding up.... if this grinder is not performing better than a Sunbeam consumer grinder.
    Yeah same…

    The coffee machine is a lelit PL041, beans are Tim Adams (season 21) house blend from the local caf, who move through them, so they're unlikely to be stale, worth checking for sure, but the beans haven't been the variable in this scenario..

    Yes, the Doge has come from a cafe and it does still have the black tab and locking pin. Just to try brute force, I wound the burrs on machine 2 together (it only took two clicks) and that slowed my lelit down somewhat, but didn't choke it…

    The sunbeam cafe series runs at 40%, +- a click, so plenty of adjustment either way, which made sense to me..

    I put the new burrs i bought for grinder 1 into grinder 2 and the setup is still, wind them in until they are touching, then back them off a couple of clicks. I think I am one click back off the worn burrs..

    It all just seems odd to me.. Hard life though this or any machine with a few years of cafe service may have had, if they spin true, motor doesn't smell, bearings aren't noisy, it's two burrs facing one another… Replace the burrs and put it out to pasture, on the kitchen bench for round two...

    I wonder, if you're still out there techy, when you finally got your grinder to a point that you felt you could use it, where did the burrs end up, in relation to one another..?
    Last edited by studoc; 19th February 2017 at 11:36 AM.

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    In conclusion; the only variable that seems to be left is in the design of the burrs…
    I think my fiorenzato experiment is over..
    Sunbeam 2
    Fiorenzato 0

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by studoc View Post
    In conclusion; the only variable that seems to be left is in the design of the burrs…
    I think my fiorenzato experiment is over..
    Sunbeam 2
    Fiorenzato 0
    The Doge is a grinder with a solid reputation that has been proven over many years.
    You would have to spend a lot of money to buy a better quality grinder.
    Its highly unlikely that you have had 2 dud machines unless the guy selling them is an Arse, ...which is unlikely...so you need to look for some other factor.
    There are many places you can source genuine burrs.....Goggle is your friend !

  34. #34
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    For sure Blend… Looking for other factors was my thing.. as each machine seemed to spin true, wasn't noisy, the operational paradigm seems a fairly simple one… They certainly appear solid to me, something with longevity, but I got the result I got.. Don't think I'll be throwing anymore money at this...

  35. #35
    Senior Member artman's Avatar
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    Have you tried turning the top burr until it firmly touches the bottom burr (grinder off). Sometimes this can "seat" them together. It worked with one of my old grinders when I took burrs off to clean.

    Another way I have heard of (but not tried myself) is to lower the top burr (grinder running) until the burrs chatter plus a bit more momentarily to bed/seat them.

    Might be worth a try as it seems nothing is out of order machine wise.

    Cheers

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