Profitec Pro 64 - Question on the funnel
I posted a version of this elsewhere, but thought I'd repeat it here.
I single dose to get consistent doses. It's been an interesting journey finding grinders that have very low retention.
Initial grinder was a Compak A8, with the hopper removed and an alternative hopper holder installed with no hopper to suit single dosing. Picked this up for an amazingly low price. Worked really well.
Then I found an Elektra Nino Grinder, that's a work of art to look at, removed the hopper, and again worked well for single dosing. Beautifully fluffy grind, minimal retention.
Then I came across Denis Baseric from Kafetek and loved what he's doing. I decided I have to support such wonderful innovation and extraordinary craftsmanship, so purchased the Kafetek Conical grinder. This is purpose built for single dosing. It is a wonderful machine and works exceptionally well. Basically no retention, really. I'm loving it. From a taste perspective, I'm consistently getting a sweetness, richness and wonderful mouthfeel.
It's been an 'interesting' journey. Which can become compulsive.
Last edited by dlight; 6th May 2017 at 12:50 PM.
That's all great, but I struggle to understand what your point is. How is this applicable to the Pro T64 or the ECM Titan grinder?
Originally Posted by dlight
They are not designed for low retention. If that's a requirement, then get a machine that is designed with low retention. I've been on a journey to achieve that.
Life's too short to be single dosing.
^That's a rather irresponsible statement with little to no respect to the hard-work involved in the coffee-production chain. If only the farmers/workers are paid at least half of the minimum wages we have in Australia then most will think twice before throwing/purging away that coffee.
Who said anything about throwing away?
Did I miss something.
Originally Posted by MadForCoffee
Purging is a given if you are not single dosing. That's assuming you want freshly ground that is.
Originally Posted by herzog
The T64 provides nice consistent timed doses, so other than 1 second at the start of the day (which is used in the worm farm) you don't need to fartarse around with single dosing.
Originally Posted by MadForCoffee
Um, so if everybody reduced wastage due to purging grinders etc, what does that do to demand for coffee beans? Bingo....it decreases it. How on earth does that help poor souls in the coffee producing countries?
Nah, we just drink more coffee 👌
Originally Posted by Barry O'Speedwagon
Low demand isn't going to be an issue for long... Hopefully market forces will increasingly mean that workers throughout the supply chain will be paid fairly for their work. People who complain about current coffee prices are gonna have a rough time in coming years though 😅
I agree with that. Likewise, I've ordered a Kinu M68 (It should've even here two week ago, but the currier made a mess of the delivery) which is a single dosing grinder.
Originally Posted by dlight
However, I love my T64. It's consistent, it's mess-free, compact, powerful and it tastes great in the cup.
But the point of me having a single dosing grinder is about being able to switch beans, and the fact that I am the only coffee drinker in the household. For instance, I make two cups in the morning, and then go to work. By the time I get home, there's no way I can drink another espresso, as the caffeine effect would keep me awake all night. Thus, the ability to be able to single dose and have a decaf and a normal bean, using the same grinder, is a great benefit, as with the kinu you can go back and forwards on the dial with relative ease and reproducebility.
I could single dose the T64. I've tried, and it is just not for me, for the very reason you stated above.
Would I part with my T64? No, not just yet. :-)
MediumRoastSteam, would be great to read your thoughts on the Kinu M68 after you get it, if you have time.
Hey, I haven't forgotten about this... :-) I am still getting familiarised with the kinu (It's been 2 weeks or so) so I'll post again when I get more used to it.
Originally Posted by 338
For what's worth, I'd say that the T64 does not fall behind. If I could keep both, I would, however, I am the only one who drinks coffee in my household so I am thinking of scaling down my equipment. The Kinu is great for single dosing. But if you have more people in the household and make multiple shots etc, then the Kinu may not be your best choice (suppose same applies to other single dose hand grinders), as it's more messy overall. For you to have an idea, I've got family staying for a few days and I am seriously considering bringing the T64 out of storage again.
Taste wise... It's great. But the T64 is also great.
There's a gentleman on the Coffee Forums UK, who did a video of the Kinu and his routine). I'd say my routine is somewhat similar.
Thanks for the update MRS. I can see how the Kinu matches your needs
It has been a while since the last post, but was hoping to revive it
This thread helped me make the right decision in choosing this grinder, so I thought I'd give some service back!
One of the objectives I had was to choose a grinder with certain properties, which would allow me to single dose with the least amount of compromises.
Yes, there's ek43, mythos one, compak R120 and k10, all good grinders for single dosing.
But they are in a different price range, and after long considerations, this one was chosen.
When single dosing, keeping the inside of the grinder completely empty of old grind is ideal. Any coffee you put in to grind should ideally come out at the same time without any left behind. Since I believe you should be measuring/weighing how many grams of coffee is to be pulled (dose), you want the number of times you need to weigh and check kept to a minimum. You grind what you need. No more, no less. Weigh your dose (in beans form) once at the beginning, grind it up nice and fluffy, in confidence that what you put in is indeed what comes out. No wdt. Just a gentle tap to flatten the fluff in your basket. Tamp. Pour!
So to effectively single dose, certain problems must be overcome.
A) total retention - there is no point in single dosing if what you put in (grams) doesn't come out. It's also not good if you put in 20g, and 20g comes out, but a part of that is from the previous dose (ie stale). The grinding chamber of t64 is well designed, with dead space around the sweeping arm (around the bottom flat burr) kept to a minimum.
Now, there are 2 obstacles to getting out all the grinds in one session. One being the relative difficulty in accessing the grinds chamber (where anything up to 3 grams can reside; and you don't want to be unscrewing the top burr off on a regular basis to access there) and second is the anti static screen which is designed to hold up and compact the coffee grinds before exiting the chute. In this chute (behind the window frame-like metallic grid) about 4 grams of coffee is usually trapped. Even though the lid of the dosing funnel comes off really easily to access the inside (one reason why I chose this grinder, not Rocket Fausto) getting a brush to squeeze in behind the mesh was difficult. So...
My solution to retention is to use a 2-prong attack by
1) removing the anti - static grid and replacing with a modified version and (pic attached at bottom)
2) using coffeechaps camera lens hood mod OR the puffer mod.
Both of these work brilliantly, and works perfectly if the antistatic screen is completely removed. I'm still on the fence about this, and a lot really depends on the humidity and bean roast/type and combination of those. But it's nothing a bit of rdt (spraying beans with a tiny bit of water before insertion to grinder) won't fix.
I've currently got a DIY antistatic plastic piece in its place. Piece of plastic, rigid enough but able to cut with scissors (I used a creme Caramel pot) cut as such works 95% as well as original metal one, but with added benefit of total access to exit chute, for touch up cleaning. Since there is less resistance at point of exit, camera lens puffer pushes most of the coffee grinds out neatly, but still continues to de-clump the grind and makes them fluffy as per standard setting. It's also nice to have it there, because without the antistatic screen of some kind, the grinds come out of the chute at full speed, and even the dosing funnel has a hard time taming and controlling the spray of grinds that might fly out creating a bit of a mess.
So doing the above will conveniently allow you to single dose on profitec t64.
There was, however, another issue.
I'm currently in the process of having an inox (stainless steel) weight fabricated, to aid my single dosing.
After the camera hood mod, I started to realize that there was something 'not right' with my espresso. As you may already know from other grinders, the less weight there is inside the hopper, the slower the grinding speed becomes (in seconds, to grind same amount of beans). This in itself is no problem.
The moment you remove the hopper for single dosing you get popcorning.
Popcorning itself isn't the pain. You just have to let the grinder spin a lot longer until that jumpy last bean has been crushed and ground. The real problem of popcorning (that's how people describe it) is the hoperless usage denying downward pressure (from the weight of the beans themselves sitting above in the hopper) causing inconsistencies in grind distribution. The lack of beans weighing down requires you to go finer in setting to compensate. But the strange thing is, this changes the grind distribution to include more fines than before, to the point where espresso starts to become a little murky. Taste is the same as before pretty much.. Extraction level (don't have refractometer) I'm guessing hasn't changed too much, judging by similarity in taste. If anything, TDS % might be higher, even though I use the same (after adjusting grinder to finer setting for single dosing) grams for dose, same brew ratio and pull time, it comes out murky. It is just that the mouthfeel is not the same. Not taste. But mouthfeel.
I figured, if I want to continue to single dose, I need to overcome this problem. So I'm currently in the process of having a stainless steel block milled out to fit inside the throat of the grinder, in the hope of replicating the coffee weight pressure. Once it's made and tested out, I'll report back!
Ah wow, great idea! Just a quick question, firstly what is that red puffer pump thing called haha and where did you get it? Awesome idea, will get one for my grinder I reckon. Can find alot 'air pump dust blowers' on eBay, but the nozzles seem a bit small, am sure they'd still work, but the same as yours would ideal (sorry I can't help with your current issue though hehe. When I single dosed in the past, I still liked to purge about 10 beans at least, just to be on the safe side! But whatever works ay!)
I am also not sure of the exact name.
Originally Posted by simonsk8r
Try googling ear rubber cleaner.
It seems to be a medical device, (no wonder it took me ages to find it... In the camera world, that size is really rare)
BTW, you need a certain size nozzle. Obviously as you say, too small is no good, but agonizingly, too big is also no good.
To answer the above question more accurately, I came across it by chance in a medical supplies shop (in living in Vietnam at the moment). The kind of shop that stocks blood pressure checkers, syringes, crutches etc
I saw the orange one in YouTube. I wanted the same. I found some, but not identical to the one in the video. They come in 4 sizes, 30, 60, 90 and 120ml. I found the 90ml, bought it (was only $1)but was not big enough. The one I saw in the video must be the biggest, 120ml version.
These orange ones are more rigid, and better suited for this use compared to the cherry red ones I found (a touch too flimsy)
Ah awesome, I'll have a look around, thanks so much for the info, appreciate it!
Not sure what size they are but if you search eelbay for "rubber air blower" or "silicone air blower" there's quite a few that look similar to that but with a longer point that you could cut off.
Ah nice, yeah already looked at those but not too sure if they'd work as well, but actually like you said if I removed the end hose bit it would possibly work, thanks bud I might give that a go! They're incredibly cheap so why not haha
It's all about the size
If it's bigger than a lemon, try it out. Mine is more like a grapefruit! (most of those camera lens puffers are lemons)
Sounds interesting - looking forward to hearing how it goes with a weight!
Version 1 worked in a quirky way.. I'm now on V2.
Originally Posted by JamesLC
Works 99% as intended, the last 1% being sometimes, 1 or 2 beans gets left behind in the throat.
I will load some pics shortly
Since this thread topic is Q on funnel of T64, I might start a separate thread to discuss single dosing specifics. Until then, coz I'm still playing around, I'll post my brief findings.
This was a one piece device carved of solid SS block
Took photos and measurements of all the steps within the throat of the grinder path, so that I could fabricate a block that would fit snugly once beans level goes down (the idea being, perfectly fitting heavy block would sit on top of beans in the throat, and push all the beans in the throat downwards into the grinding chamber)
The bottom end of version 1 needed a recessed area where the centre bolt of the bottom burr is. So a hole was drilled out, and that was then extended to go through all the way to the top, so that I can attach the blower and blow air into the grinder (to minimize retention within the grinder and push it all out)
It definitely had flaws in the design. It would occasionally get stuck half way down (due to width vs height ratio, something about centre of gravity?)
Also the step within the throat was prone to collecting semi crushed beans, and then getting stuck by the following weight. So not all the beans put in would get ground. To remedy this, I would need to pull the weight out, brush into centre of the throat all the crushed coffee, then re-plunge the weight. Not the smooth single-action I was hoping for.
Positives were that the weight had definitive and positive influence on grind speed and grind quality.
Photo 1 : throat of grinder
Photo 2, 3 : side profile, correct side up
Photo 4 : bottom end, with bigger hole this end to accommodate the spinning centre bolt in the middle of grind chamber
Photo 5 : with air blower. Hole on top sized to fit blower mouth
Photo 6 : placed in position, beans image throat (20g)ready for grinding
Photo 7 : beans all ground, stepped side of the block now hitting the step inside the throat, working as a Stopper (so the block won't touch moving parts of bottom burr). Now ready to squeeze and blow air through the grinder to expel residues
BTW, weight of version 1 steel cylinder is 499g, to stimulate full weight of beans inside the hopper.
Still the same objectives and goals, but changed my approach to better understand all the possibilities.
Changes include :
switch from stainless steel (SS) to aluminium. Easier to machine, cheaper to try out. And lighter than SS, a virtue due to changes in this design of version 2. It's a bit softer as a material, so not sure about durability. Need to be careful about dinging it.
2 pcs construction. I decided the step in the throat was, initially a convenient step to stop the cylinder plunging all the way down and hitting moving parts. But moved away from this and created a simple cylinder to match the inner diameter of the thinnest part of the throat. This effectively turned the whole throat into 1 straight tube all the way down. This I hoped, would stop the cylinder from getting stuck mid-way down, and at the same time getting rid of crannies that was prone to collecting chunks of coffee. To have a Stopper, I added a bigger ring at the top of the plunger, so it can't travel further south. Also doubles as a nice handle for pulling it out of the outer tube.
Length increased considerably, to improve the sliding down action of the weight (without edges catching somewhere and as a result getting stuck mid way down). This lengthening also increases total capacity of 1 time grinding max weight. Before 20g was all that would fit the throat. Now it is like a mini hopper, and I can put in more than I need for 1 session. Even 40g pour over grinding is a breeze now. This fills only half the tube.
Still early days, only came back from the shop 2 days ago. But in the 20 or so times I used it, it was near perfection. Most of the flaws from version 1 were successfully addressed. It is the one action mechanism I wanted. Pull out the weight, pour in the beans, put back in the weight, and then grind away. Once the grinder stops, and by then the weight should have reached the bottom, blow some air. Tap the dosing funnel from the outside to make static - stuck grinds inside the funnel fall out. Done!
I have a few times had a couple of beans stuck un-ground. I think it's a matter of fine tuning the shape of the bottom of the weight. Apart from that, no flaws. It is air tight, can blow air into the grinder no problem. I intentionally made it longer than necessary. Can cut, but cannot add.
Aluminum weight 310g. Grind quality still as good as if the hopper is full. Same speed as when the hopper is full.
Pic 3 & 6 is where you'd throw in the beans. Pic 4 beans already inside, waiting to be ground. Pic 5 finished, all the way down.
Do you get any static issues inside the funnel?
Yes, depending on the configuration I am running. I've got about 4 pieces of anti static grid (all plastic), and in the process of prototyping some more. That's my last hurdle (and probably the most difficult to overcome) before it becomes a prefect single dosing machine. Well, as perfect as any OD timer grinder can get.
Originally Posted by MediumRoastSteam
Hate to admit it, but it will never be as convenient as what Niche seems to be capable of. But the plus side is, should I want to (since there are no permanent mods here) I can always revert back to an awesome grinder with a hopper!
I'm getting very close to being able to do a V60 in the morning, various SO Espressos during the day, and decaf after dinner without having to empty the hopper, purge or dial in. Since the grinder is always clean and empty inside, going fine or coarse in setting many revolutions either way does not require me to be grinding beans. And keeping the exact memo of where each blend is at on the dial allows me to jump directly there. The constant aluminium weight makes adjustments of grind size and particle distribution so accurate. And I only need to weigh my dose once, on the way in.
What's there not to like, apart from the sad fact that it looks as if there's a giant matchstick protruding from my grinder!
I'm not sure if I'll ever reach the level of satisfaction and convenience I'm longing for. But, if I do, you might have to pull yours out of storage and bring it out of retirement!
Haha! Excellent, great to know, thanks!
Just a quick try. Chopped up a fold-back binder clip and put a couple of slots on it, so the 2 bolts can hold it in place.
For every pro (that it is super easy to move up the clip to clean out the chute) there's a con.
For every anti static grid I have tried like those cut plastic pots, subtle changes in shape influences subtle changes in how and where static clings to the funnel.
The way the grinds back up behind the clip handle is very similar (but to a lesser extent) to the original metal grid. What's backed up is more fluffy, less packed. It might be the perfect mod for those with hopper use.
I do the same in my Robur. Huge hopper but I keep one cm into the hopper which is less than a days worth of coffee. It isnít long enough time to go stale.
That's awesome - ping @readeral, think you suggested a hinged grid at one point.
Originally Posted by u2jewel
Might be the solution for my V-Titan.
The odd journey back and forth between Doser and Doserless. The Doser helps to break up clumps, the grid helps GOD grinders to break up clumps before they hit the basket.
A Doser mixes the grind which is great, Doserless some people even go so far as to get out a whisk to break up the clumps.
I personally don't think that the clumps make a big difference to a shot. The Robur with a Doser though either doesn't produce clumps or kills them in the Doser through physical violence. I think the GOD version does have a grid in the chute though. The problem with the grid is obviously it can hold up coffee in the chute so it has to be pushed passed the grid rather than falling through the chute with no obstruction.
The quest for the perfect coffee goes on...and on...and won't ever end.
I've never owned or operated a doser grinder before, so your journey is an interesting one for me.
Originally Posted by wattgn
I agree with you, within reason smallish clumps can be ignored. Clumps only are problematic when it becomes difficult to eyeball whether you have evenly distributed grounds in the basket.
I read and saw pics from your other post. It feels like from different start points, we ended up at the same problem . You kill one problem, as a compromise, another pops up in a never ending game of whack-a-mole.
My short term goal in this game is to be able to single dose with no use of brush. No grid, while fluffy and nice, there was just too much static. Clung everywhere, brush was a must.
This avenue I'm exploring looks promising. Onto the clip, price of flexible to plastic to physically sweep out brings from chute. Blowing air can be inconsistent. Most of the time it works, sometimes, it just won't budge. Sometimes, you squeeze air too much and it makes an almighty mess!
Every time I flick on the plastic tab, it pushes out most of what's in the chute.
Took me a minute to figure out how that works (it's Monday morning after all)... Ingenious! Following this thread closely.
My latest crazy mod!
Piece of plastic, cut, holed with ice pick, threaded with silver chain.
Thinking farther out of the box. Original grid was problematic because it is rigid. Hard to access behind it. Then I tried the plastic pot cut out in the shape of vertical thin strips. With the compacted grinds behind the strips, when you blow air, the control of force was difficult. Too hard and forceful, then the gust of wind blows powder everywhere. Too gentle, then part of the shute gets cleared (one, maybe two out of 3 vertical segment), and then any following pushes are unsuccessful because there is already a gap where air would travel around, still leaving the partial blockage in tact.
Then I went the binder clip method. With one clip handle, there was less physical interference, bringing pros and cons. Pro was that there was hardly ever any blockage, and any residual could be pushed out with a gentle blow. Con was that due to lack of resistance, grinds flew out uninhibited, resulting in static clings all over the funnel (needing brush work to sweep it down the funnel) and super fluffy grinds (too fluffy, making prep work in the basket super difficult. Huuuuuge mountain about to spill out of the portafilter basket)
So, latest idea is a curtain of chain. Mahlkonig and Ceado use soft material like silicon and rubber flaps. I started looking for a substitute.
I think there is something here potentially. It did well to catch the initial spew of grinds. Some would stick to the chain, but the following grinds would also attach, and when it reaches critical mass, becomes too heavy, and then gently falls off and down the funnel in a controlled manner.
I've only done one test, too late for more coffee. If it works out, then I will video the action.
Yeah I think it depends regarding clumps... My theory is that clumps affect proper distribution which therefore affects the shot. If there's a boulder in there it makes not only the grounds around it to move less freely to get into the crevices (filling up empty space), but the boulder itself can just stay put and not be free to move, and the adhesion of the clump you'd think would have some degree of resistance to water.. This of course depends on distribution method, but I reckon they have an effect.. just been playing with that alot regarding distribution methods and breaking up clumps etc, finding that overall it has been more effective shots from breaking up clumps but then again depends on the 'hardness' of the clump and whether it will break easier. And roast level I think is a factor in terms of clumpiness. But mostly all theories anyway, I don't know what I'm talking about for sure haha!
Originally Posted by wattgn
Hehe also following this thread very closely!
Originally Posted by Magic_Matt
That.... is...... AWESOME haha, really cool thinking outside the box!! It's really admirable to see and is also giving us all great ideas! As long as you're enjoying this process and it's not giving you too many headaches hehe
Originally Posted by u2jewel
How goes the project u2jewel?
Until a new, fresh concept or inspiration comes along, I'm defeated at the moment on my ultimate objective ; to be able to single dose with zero retention AND make the grinds fall neatly without the need for wdt AND no need for cleaning the funnel.
It's a game of compromise at the moment, with my idea of priorities changing daily!
The photo from above will remain in that iteration until a fresh new idea pops up. It does all of above, but leaves me needing to wdt (redistributing inside the portafilter basket by stirring) because without it (dosing then immediately tamping) creates occasional channelling.
Ah yep fair enough hehe, yeah seems to be a compromise. And my priorities seemed to keep changing too, then eventually I thought that little extra bit of cleaning didn't matter to me, as long as great coffees are still being produced.
Originally Posted by u2jewel
Am surprised you still need to WDT with the Profitec grinder, but yeah fair enough it can definitely help.
Has been cool hearing of your ideas for sure
Ah yeah good point hehe, I mean I did single dose with my Rocky grinder for years, but certainly there was channelling every now and then, WDT definitely did help with that. And that's the main thing ay, a bit of tinkering fun