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Thread: Looking to buy a new grinder for home espresso around $1000

  1. #51
    Senior Member Gavisconi007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    I reckon your trying to dig yourself out of a bit of a hole Paul.


    I note that that the backhoe operator has already eaten his hat too......just saying

  2. #52
    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Bean Storage For Dummies.

    Cant believe this conversation is happening, we see the same question asked time and again by newcomers, the threads on the topic are endless, and yet here we are, experienced home/retail coffee makers discussing the the same tired old subject.


    d.
    Agreed Yelta,

    Certified judges, coffee professionals, competition baristas etc would never dream of leaving their beans exposed in the hopper for a week.

    Its not here say or faith, its industry knowledge based on their experience

    You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink....

    Now RP how is your search for your $1000 grinder going?

    https://www.casaespresso.com.au/grinders.html

    Cheers

    Antony
    CASA ESPRESSO
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  3. #53
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    Paul, I want to say all good hearted teasing, when you are as a prolific poster as you some posts are going to need correction. The worse thing is there are so many knowledgeable opinions any correction gets picked up straight away.

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    Hi all...lets get back to topic of grinders. now how about this one for size....its a manual one though

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  5. #55
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Great thread I think. And whilst it has been beaten to death I think it's good to revisit every now and then.

    Paul I applaud your honesty, and moreso your openness to actually question and want to test out what you're doing. I don't think you're "digging yourself out of a hole" at all, you're actually willing to look at, listen to and respectfully question not only current presumptions, but your own methodology. I see a few people peddling the right/wrong game, and whilst there are certain tenets and principles to adhere to that have been tested, I can't see any absolutes, just recommendations. If conditions are different, results will be different, and like I said earlier it depends I think.

    And by no means am I defending anyone, I don't think that's necessary, just getting the essence of what's being communicated and where people's intentions lie. I think it's incredibly healthy to question, and with humility look at what one is doing. It keeps us honest and moreso allows us to actually learn and grow. And of course to not be naive about it and just throw everything out the window, but I've found that being open to evolving and learning makes a difference with all this.
    No one is being demanded to 'change', but I'm here to learn and share, so rainbows, unicorns and dancing with daffodils I shall haha. Or ignore all this, nothing's riding on it haha
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  6. #56
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    Another new high end hand grinder at this price point

    There is another high end hand grinder just released in recent days by Helor. Previously referred to as the 102 while in development, it has been released as the Stance. Comes in at this price point and is available in two 83mm conical burr sets by Italmill and Mazzer. It is similar in format to the HG One and Kinu M68.


    On the issue of variability in dose when bean levels in the hopper fall to low levels, do any of the hoppers have a "floor" in them to support the main weight of the bean column and allow the beans progressing to the grinding burrs to do so at a consistent rate? This principle is used in ammunition reloading machine powder funnels to maintain the consistency of measured powder doses as hopper levels fall. Hard to describe this, but perhaps the attached pic of a model will convey the principle involved. Should be possible to craft a floor or bridge like this as an experiment to see whether consistency can be maintained as bean levels fall.
    image.jpg

  7. #57
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    Paul, sorry you feel it may be personal. Your posts and comments on all and everything ensure there will be others with a differing opinion, even if you were 100% correct. I am sure the enthusiastic posting is part unbridled enthusiasm, part business plan. The K-Bean business side of you should look at it through the old Oscar Wilde comment " There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about"


    PS I admire your posts of encouragement to anyone who joins the forum
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  8. #58
    Senior Member magnafunk's Avatar
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    I don't believe Oscar Wilde was noted for selling coffee equipment
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  9. #59
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    But he liked drinking
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  10. #60
    Senior Member magnafunk's Avatar
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    A few of the posts around here make me feel like doing some myself
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  11. #61
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Yeah well said, and it's always hard to pick up on meaning and intention when we only have written word, punctuation and the odd emoji! I like to think we're here to share and learn as best as we can about all things coffee, and while we'll have differing views at times, respect and humility seem to be key in actually getting anywhere productive

    "All the mind's statements are provisional at best, and an awareness of that limitation is an intrinsic quality of wisdom." -David Hawkins
    Last edited by simonsk8r; 1 Week Ago at 12:19 AM. Reason: Spelling
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  12. #62
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    Otago, great idea for a manufacturer to put in! I am familiar with the floors you are showing, but don't think they will work as an aftermarket addition. Most of the solution I have seen around the net are the opposite, adding pressure to the beans. Examples I had seen used for single dosing were tampers, wooden turned 'pucks' and wooden tampers all designed to add downward pressure. The floor is more designed to retain some pressure and allow an even pressure for the powder down the sides so a consistent number of grains is in each load. Good idea for a manufacture to incorporate as they could tune the grinder (if possible) for low pressure.

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    wattgn, that's sage advice, thank you very much

    Tony, I've bought a manual grinder (Lido 3) and that's taken the urgency out of the search. I'm just sitting back looking, listening and learning.

    Madaxle, too funny. I can see someone riding a bike with that grinder in a backpack checking bridge height signs as the approach :-)
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  14. #64
    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otago View Post
    There is another high end hand grinder just released in recent days by Helor. Previously referred to as the 102 while in development, it has been released as the Stance. Comes in at this price point and is available in two 83mm conical burr sets by Italmill and Mazzer. It is similar in format to the HG One and Kinu M68.


    On the issue of variability in dose when bean levels in the hopper fall to low levels, do any of the hoppers have a "floor" in them to support the main weight of the bean column and allow the beans progressing to the grinding burrs to do so at a consistent rate? This principle is used in ammunition reloading machine powder funnels to maintain the consistency of measured powder doses as hopper levels fall. Hard to describe this, but perhaps the attached pic of a model will convey the principle involved. Should be possible to craft a floor or bridge like this as an experiment to see whether consistency can be maintained as bean levels fall.
    image.jpg
    Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean, every grinder I've owned and practically every one I've seen has something pretty much exactly like this.

    Often referred to as a "finger guard" (and I guess perform that function for anyone silly enough to try to jam their fingers into the burrs) but their main function is to remove the weight of beans filling the hopper from those directly above the burrs.

    IME it's only once the hopper is virtually empty and the beans start 'popcorning' out of the burr chamber that the variability kicks in.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPbeans View Post
    wattgn, that's sage advice, thank you very much

    Tony, I've bought a manual grinder (Lido 3) and that's taken the urgency out of the search. I'm just sitting back looking, listening and learning.

    Madaxle, too funny. I can see someone riding a bike with that grinder in a backpack checking bridge height signs as the approach :-)
    We sold a Lido 3 on line to a customer in Melbourne on the weekend.

    Wasn't to you was it?

    Cheers

    Antony
    CASA ESPRESSO
    www.casaespresso.com.au

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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    Hi guys,


    I'm now back to basics (KISS principle). I load the hopper and just make sure I empty it within a week or so.
    Yep me too. As long as the beans are fresh to start with, it's perfectly fine to keep a few days worth in the hopper.

    There's no taste difference and I find that you get a more consistent output when you keep some weight of beans in the hopper.

    It sure saves a lot of fartarsing around!
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  17. #67
    Senior Member Barry O'Speedwagon's Avatar
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    Yeh, well I'd happily fill my grinder. But it's usually full of rice (cooked...sushi variety) for the purpose of cleaning.
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  18. #68
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Ah it's great to hear from those who do keep beans in the hopper, definitely worth considering and that it has a following, I can see from both sides the benefits. I know we're off topic, but do you guys just dump the beans elsewhere if you happen to have a few beans on the go and want to change coffees? I usually have two or three different beans/roast levels on the go at any time that I alternate between, I'm thinking an easy hopper empty, dump new beans in, and purge would be the way to go? (Am probably gonna simplify a bit regarding how many beans I have on the go anyway to be honest..)

  19. #69
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    Nice work RP,

    Let us know how the Lido goes!

    Mike K
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  20. #70
    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonsk8r View Post
    do you guys just dump the beans elsewhere if you happen to have a few beans on the go and want to change coffees? I usually have two or three different beans/roast levels on the go at any time that I alternate between, I'm thinking an easy hopper empty, dump new beans in, and purge would be the way to go? (Am probably gonna simplify a bit regarding how many beans I have on the go anyway to be honest..)
    That's what I've done in the past, but it's not a great solution tbh. You'll be wasting the original beans in the throat and burrs, plus dialing in, every time you change.

    You could minimise that by removing the hopper and tipping or scooping the beans from the throat I guess.

    But if you change super-often, a second grinder probably makes sense; it'd be rare that two roasts would require exactly the same grind anyhow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    I'm really not convinced yet as I get regular god shots with beans stored for a week in the hopper.

    I'll need to test this. Maybe there's a research paper out there??? I need evidence. I'll test for myself with back-to-back shots. I suppose that's the ex-scientist in me. I rely on evidence, not here say or faith

    My hypothesis is: "there is no significant difference in espresso produced using 7 day old light/medium roasted beans stored in a hopper and 7 day old light/medium roasted beans stored in a bag with a one way valve.
    My anecdotal experience is that, as others have said, it makes a difference.
    Day old beans in the hopper seem to result in a faster flow than fresh beans from the airtight jar in the dark.

    There is a bit of a trade off on the beans in the hopper.
    Plus - put weight on the beans at the burr and leads to more consistent grind. You'll notice that at the end of the beans in the hopper they skip around and jump at the burrs - not grinding consistently or as well.
    Negative - decline of bean exposed to environment.
    This is why you see (particularly on US forums) grinders with no hopper at all and a tamper on the throat - single dosing with weight on the bean (to a point obviously as doesn't go all the way down).

  22. #72
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Ahh right, that's clarified things alot, thanks so much guys. Think i might do a 'daily bean' sorta thing haha, have a bean going for a day/two, then switch to the other, that wouldn't be too much hassle for me. Thanks again

  23. #73
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
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    This "beans in use" storage discussion is completely subjective and dependent on personal set ups, usage and more importantly environmental conditions. In WA the annual temperature ranges from 0C to 47C. In the Winter when temps range between 0 and 22, not so much of a problem having 1 to 2 days worth of beans in a hopper - but I'd still say, in my experience, there is noticeable deterioration over a 48 hour hopper storage using my set up.
    Come summer, if I was to load the hopper at 5.00am when the temperature is 30C those beans would be nightmare gushers by 9am when it is 40C and they'd taste stale.
    I do not use aircon and heating only sparingly mid winter. I roast 3 x 750g valve bags every 3 weeks. These bags are stored in my pantry on the tiled floor which has a temperature range of 15 to 21C constantly, all year, no matter the local temp (I keep a thermometer with the beans). This consistent temp range, I have found, gives me the most consistent pour result. I considered getting a thermostat wine fridge so I could store the roasted beans at a constant 14-19C, the sweet spot apparently, but decided my carbon foot print is already way too large and the temp stability of my pantry floor is a cheaper option too!. I have a "beans in use" valve bag which I blend my 3 roasts into, enough for 3 daysish, this bag is also stored on the pantry floor and is the only bag which is opened on a daily basis.
    The other 3 bags are opened only to replenish my "beans in use" bag. Use any term u like to describe my process - with my set up and with the environmental conditions in WA and after trialling many different bean management ideas/solutions, this works for me - I single dose.
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  24. #74
    Senior Member simonsk8r's Avatar
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    Great post, thanks noonar. Gives alot of insight into the topic (or off topic hehe) for sure, and definitely is an 'it depends' situation

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    i see a lot of posts around the Profitec T64 but not much about the EMC S-64. Is there much difference in these two? Or is it that the Profitec is newer that people just prefer this one.

    Looking to get a ECM Synchonika and debating between these two grinders, the Eureka Atom, Zenthe 65E or should i go the big dog ECM titan 64

  26. #76
    Senior Member level3ninja's Avatar
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    The S64, T64, and V-titan 64 have essentially identical mechanics. The S64 has a portafilter rest not a holder, so you can't go hands free while it grinds, it also has a chute rather than the funnel the other two have. The T64 has buttons on the top of the grinder, whereas the other two have a portafilter button. The V-titan is a bit bigger than the other two. With these three grinders it really comes down to which of these features you want as they are essentially the same inside.

    The Atom is quiet, like really quiet, for a grinder. Not silent by any means, but if most grinders are like someone with noisy vacuum right next to you, the Atom is like someone vacuuming in the next room with the door shut. You are definitely aware it's happening but it's not as overpowering. Also both the Atom and Zenith use a setup which means you won't have to dial the grind in again if you remove the top burr for cleaning, as it will be right where you left it. Most other grinders you have to wind through their settings until the top comes off, and then wind it back down again and hope you got it in the same place. The Zenith has an adjustable chute so you can aim it wherever you like (likely to make sure it is in the middle of your portafilter).

    Atom 60mm burrs
    S64, T64, V-titan 64mm burrs
    Zenith 65mm burrs
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    OK a few things,
    1/ i have two (used) grinders in the kitchen at teh moment, one flat burr (Compak K3) and one conical (Iberital) and will be doing the Flat vs Conical test this week.
    2/ i have reusable bags with one way valves and have a hand held vacuum device to purge air. works for me!
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  28. #78
    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madaxle View Post
    i see a lot of posts around the Profitec T64 but not much about the EMC S-64. Is there much difference in these two? Or is it that the Profitec is newer that people just prefer this one.

    Looking to get a ECM Synchonika and debating between these two grinders, the Eureka Atom, Zenthe 65E or should i go the big dog ECM titan 64

    Until recently the ECM/Profitec grinders were ANFIM based. Maybe this has changed?

    The idea of having a matching Machine and grinder brand is nice, however IMO I would look at one of the specialist grinder manufactures when choosing your grinder.

    Synkronika is a fantastic machine, it deserves the best grinder within your budget

    Cheers
    Antony
    CASA ESPRESSO
    www.casaespresso.com.au
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  29. #79
    Senior Member Magic_Matt's Avatar
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    I purchased the ECM S-64, then changed my mind and spent the extra for a V-Titan.

    My reasons were:

    1. Not a fan of the "nose" chute on the S-64; no access to the burr chamber for sweeping, cleaning or to remove/modify the anti-static screen.
    2. Didn't much like the plastic grind adjustment gear - on the V-Titan it's polished metal (steel I think). No big deal and I'm sure the plastic is fine.
    3. Prefer a portafilter holder over the rest on the S-64 - just minor personal preference. As it turns out I dose into a metal container to more easily weigh the dose, then use the funnel to re-dose into the portafilter. So while handy, the holder isn't a necessity.
    4. Aesthetics; the S-64 looked kinda dinky next to the Synchronika. The V-Titan is nicely proportioned and the curves balance out the straight lines of the Synchronika nicely. In a tight kitchen this might be a point to the smaller grinders though...
    5. Titanium-coated burrs are a nice extra, but not likely to make much difference in a domestic setting.

    I'd say if you're weighing up these three, the smart money is on the Profitec T-64 or if you have cash to burn go the V-Titan. I don't think the S-64 has much to recommend it other than very closely 'matching' the aesthetics of the ECM machines.

    Like Paul, my understanding is that all three grinders are manufactured in the ECM/Profitec factory in Heidelberg. I've seen similar comments on UK forums about sticking with the established grinder companies, but never really backed up by anything solid...

    You definitely shouldn't feel limited to the ECM/Profitec family to "match" your machine, but ime they are quality grinders that stack up well against the others I've owned (Mazzer, Fiorenzato). I haven't decided yet whether I'll keep the ECM or Kony-E if I downsize to one grinder; for now I'm keeping both
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  30. #80
    Senior Member coffeechris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by level3ninja View Post
    The S64, T64, and V-titan 64 have essentially identical mechanics. The S64 has a portafilter rest not a holder, so you can't go hands free while it grinds, it also has a chute rather than the funnel the other two have. The T64 has buttons on the top of the grinder, whereas the other two have a portafilter button. The V-titan is a bit bigger than the other two. With these three grinders it really comes down to which of these features you want as they are essentially the same inside.

    The Atom is quiet, like really quiet, for a grinder. Not silent by any means, but if most grinders are like someone with noisy vacuum right next to you, the Atom is like someone vacuuming in the next room with the door shut. You are definitely aware it's happening but it's not as overpowering. Also both the Atom and Zenith use a setup which means you won't have to dial the grind in again if you remove the top burr for cleaning, as it will be right where you left it. Most other grinders you have to wind through their settings until the top comes off, and then wind it back down again and hope you got it in the same place. The Zenith has an adjustable chute so you can aim it wherever you like (likely to make sure it is in the middle of your portafilter).

    Atom 60mm burrs
    S64, T64, V-titan 64mm burrs
    Zenith 65mm burrs
    Can Confirm I'm extremely happy so far with the Eureka Zenith which I've had for approx 2 weeks. To be honest unlike looking for coffee machines i really hadn't paid much attention to what grinders where available as what i had being the M4D i thought was great for what it was priced at.

    I keep meaning to do a write up and its possibly something i wouldn't normally do. however this grinder being the Eureka Zenith so far has been super easy to use, straight off the bat it changed the way my coffee comes out of the machine i have for the better and I have found also that its very forgiving for those who may not have a set routine when making coffee (like my partner, she just grinds ans little to the point of that will do and hopes for the best).

    For all grinders I have owned I cant honestly say its the most ergonomic grinder, as stated above it has a adjustable chute, which may seem like a gimmick, but actually works really well and the portafilter holder you can trust 100%.

    I believe Antony Still has these at a discounted price as Casa Espresso. In my mind its been well worth the purchase. I could have considered the Olympus for the extra price on top. But for the home setting I dont see it would have been worth it. I looked at the Atom also, but to be honest the appearance and cheaper price sold me on the Zenith in the end.

    Chris

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    Quote Originally Posted by Casa Espresso View Post
    We sold a Lido 3 on line to a customer in Melbourne on the weekend.

    Wasn't to you was it?

    Cheers

    Antony
    CASA ESPRESSO
    www.casaespresso.com.au
    Sorry Anthony, no it wasn't. I'm in Brisbane

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    The Lido 3 is a great choice RP.
    Enjoy the morning exercise
    Cheers
    Paul
    Thanks Paul!

  33. #83
    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPbeans View Post
    Sorry Anthony, no it wasn't. I'm in Brisbane
    Just a coincidence then

    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpiceBean View Post
    Nice work RP,

    Let us know how the Lido goes!

    Mike K
    So far its pretty good Mike. I've dialed it in at minus 1 for the Haze blend I'm currently drinking. The fine adjustment is a bit tricky i.e. I'd like to make a tiny + or - each day but unlocking the locking ring and adjusting a fraction sometimes makes a difference and sometimes not. And the grinds a clumpy making transfer to the portafilter basket a job that requires concentration. These, though, are minor issues and overall I am very happy with the grinder.
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  35. #85
    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coffeechris View Post
    Can Confirm I'm extremely happy so far with the Eureka Zenith which I've had for approx 2 weeks. To be honest unlike looking for coffee machines i really hadn't paid much attention to what grinders where available as what i had being the M4D i thought was great for what it was priced at.

    I keep meaning to do a write up and its possibly something i wouldn't normally do. however this grinder being the Eureka Zenith so far has been super easy to use, straight off the bat it changed the way my coffee comes out of the machine i have for the better and I have found also that its very forgiving for those who may not have a set routine when making coffee (like my partner, she just grinds ans little to the point of that will do and hopes for the best).

    For all grinders I have owned I cant honestly say its the most ergonomic grinder, as stated above it has a adjustable chute, which may seem like a gimmick, but actually works really well and the portafilter holder you can trust 100%.

    I believe Antony Still has these at a discounted price as Casa Espresso. In my mind its been well worth the purchase. I could have considered the Olympus for the extra price on top. But for the home setting I dont see it would have been worth it. I looked at the Atom also, but to be honest the appearance and cheaper price sold me on the Zenith in the end.

    Chris
    Nice little mini review Chris.

    In my mind the Zenith is great value for money. We have them on sale here https://www.casaespresso.com.au/grinders/eureka.html, also including FREE delivery Australia wide, there is also the option of a mini hopper which is nice for the home user

    Cheers

    Antony
    CASA ESPRESSO
    www.casaespresso.com.au
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  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casa Espresso View Post
    Nice little mini review Chris.

    In my mind the Zenith is great value for money. We have them on sale here https://www.casaespresso.com.au/grinders/eureka.html, also including FREE delivery Australia wide, there is also the option of a mini hopper which is nice for the home user

    Cheers

    Antony
    CASA ESPRESSO
    www.casaespresso.com.au
    whats the height with mini-hopper.

  37. #87
    Senior Member coffeechris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casa Espresso View Post
    Nice little mini review Chris.

    In my mind the Zenith is great value for money. We have them on sale here https://www.casaespresso.com.au/grinders/eureka.html, also including FREE delivery Australia wide, there is also the option of a mini hopper which is nice for the home user

    Cheers

    Antony
    CASA ESPRESSO
    www.casaespresso.com.au
    No probs Antony..

    I'm always hesitate to do a full on review. Not so much for being wrong or having an opinion, but I find sometimes some simple pros and cons on a item (in this case a grinder) can be beneficial for many. In depth I enjoy reading and glad so many people on here are willing to do such in depth reviews on anything coffee.

    This thread goes back to something i wrote the last few days stating we are never going to 100% happy with the things we buy and coffee equipment being one of them. That said this grinder I'm 99% sure i will have for at least another year....before something else comes along. That said i am only finding pros to this grinder and i'm yet to find any cons...

    Chris


  38. #88
    Site Sponsor Casa Espresso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madaxle View Post
    whats the height with mini-hopper.
    46.5cm with the mini hopper

    Cheers

    Antony
    CASA ESPRESSO
    www.casaespresso.com.au

  39. #89
    Senior Member coffeechris's Avatar
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    I want to add something else about the Eureka Zenith which i'm sure goes for all Eureka range with this ability. Having had this now for 3 plus weeks I have to say the ability and ease in which you can change the grind on these are second to none and is is the best I have seen. I also have a Ditting bag grinder which is easy to adjust being step less, but for more than half the price the Eureka is something else. Having had the K3 push and M4D this is a big step up and it still blows me away how easy it is to adjust the grind.

    Chris
    Dimal and Casa Espresso like this.

  40. #90
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    I support K_Bean_Coffee comments. I have a modified hopper on a Kony e. It is a short 50 mm diameter plumbers pipe. It holds about 5 double shots. Originally I put into the pipe beans for one double shot. Now I noticed my work M4D ground better tasting coffee from a partially filled hopper.
    So I filled up my Kony e plumbers pipe and then struck trouble. The grinds were far to fine. So I reset the grinder until I got 60ml in 30 secs, then made small adjustments and got a really great taste. I simply keep the mini hopper full and grind my one or two double shots a day. Over the days the taste has not diminished.
    The beans only stay in the hopper for three days but as the hopper is small and a cap is placed on it, it probably is just as good as opening and closing a bag over a week or so.
    Dimal, simonsk8r, trentski and 1 others like this.

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