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Thread: How to get a sweeter filter roast?

  1. #1
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    How to get a sweeter filter roast?

    Had a play on a friends commercial roaster for the first time the other day. I was trying to replicate on of my favourite Behmor filter roast profiles but it came up short. It wasn’t bad but it wasn’t as crisp and clean as I normally get. It also had a slight dry mouth feel, somewhat similar to drinking a dry red wine.

    So roasting gurus, any suggestions for improvement?

    Roast profile attached.

    2016-12-12 Roast Profile.jpg

  2. #2
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    What machine was it? Does it have variable drum speed and air flow? What was the batch size?

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    Good question, Diedrich 3kg. I don't think it has a variable drum, just on and off. It does have an air diverter flap control thingy (technical term) which I believe I could use to influence air flow.

    Edit: Batch size was 1.5kg
    Last edited by MrFreddofrog; 14th December 2016 at 08:36 PM.

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    anyone ???

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    Not a simple question to answer mate, without having personal experience with the exact same roaster you're referring to....

    It's not possible to transfer knowledge and experience with one roaster directly to another completely different roaster, especially one as different as the Diedrich design is.

    Why doesn't the mate who owns the roaster help you out?

    Mal.
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    He is.
    I just thought I'd ask the collective wisdom that is CS. I'm guessing there is few life times worth of roasting experience here as opposed to his one.

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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    How to get a sweeter filter roast?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    He is.
    I just thought I'd ask the collective wisdom that is CS. I'm guessing there is few life times worth of roasting experience here as opposed to his one.
    TBH you're possibly in the wrong place. The only roasters here with the right experience (apart from a few exceptions) are site sponsors. The rest of us are home baristas, roasters and hobbyists. Maybe try a forum with a more commercial focus like the Barista Hustle Facebook page or The Coffee Forum. Or a larger international forum like Home Barista.
    I have no experience whatsoever and I believe the Diedrich is a unique machine. So my advice is very general, but something I heard recently could be worth a try. Its sort of an adaptation of Scott Rao's theory - aim for a continually declining RoR (the Rao curve); increase airflow progressively throughout the roast with whatever means you have (fan speed, vents etc); and aim for a relatively low development percentage of maybe 17%. So you'll probably start with the gas on or close to max and slowly lower the heat throughout. Development time will be very dependent on the beans and batch size so 17% is just a number really. You could be anywhere from 15-25%.
    Just try some stuff I reckon, but just like with espresso if you want to change a variable on a subsequent roast make sure it's one thing at a time. Good luck, gotta say I'm very jealous.

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    Maybe try...Or a larger international forum like Home Barista.
    Uuuummmmm.....Home Barista only has 14,240 registered members. Coffee Snobs with its 42,909 registered members has over 3 times the membership base and with logins from 92 different countries in just the last day we are likely more international in scope as well.


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    Senior Member greenman's Avatar
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    what origin was the filter roast you did on the Diedrich and what was the batch size??

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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile View Post
    Uuuummmmm.....Home Barista only has 14,240 registered members. Coffee Snobs with its 42,909 registered members has over 3 times the membership base and with logins from 92 different countries in just the last day we are likely more international in scope as well.


    Java "Aren't numbers fun?" phile
    I didn't mean larger than CS, I just meant larger in a general sense. Coffee Geek is the other obvious option, but again I've no idea how it compares in membership.
    Total numbers don't tell the whole story as active membership percentages could vary. Is that stat obtainable JP?

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    Quote Originally Posted by greenman View Post
    what origin was the filter roast you did on the Diedrich and what was the batch size??
    Ethiopian yirgacheff, 1.5kg

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    That depends on how you define active. While the numbers go up and down with the time of day going off the home page stats on average there are somewhere north of 1,000 people logged in at any given time here. When I checked the stats for my previous post there were about a third as many people logged into HB as there were here. Unlike most forums we regularly purge the membership database to get rid of the deadwood.


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    Senior Member greenman's Avatar
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    with my filter roasts I usually get to a vigorous first crack at around the 10min mark and run approx. 45seconds and then dump and cool, gets nice crisp acidity and brings out the fruity notes, a few days rest helps them develop.
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    What roaster are you using greenman?

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    Senior Member greenman's Avatar
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    Coffeetech Torrefattore 2kg electric drum roaster

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    I suggest it you may have needed a more aggressive profile, getting into FC a little earlier and really just letting it coast from FC to get the right development time for what you're chasing in terms of flavour. Your time getting into FC may have been a little slow, but the Rate of rise seems to be a little up and down. As mentioned, the Rao style of roasting is based on that declining RoR, which can be achieved by a higher charge and and gas to start, then slowly ramping gas down and or airflow up as the roast progresses to get the desired RoR curve.

    The damper adjuster will give some airflow adjustment and without knowing the machine specifically, it would likely have a decent effect on its roasting performance. All of my roasting on drum roaster has involved variable airflow fans, so I don't have too much information on the use of dampers sorry.

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    Thanks for the input. I'm not sure how we can get more aggressive. We did try a slightly hotter roast but got some tipping. It might be we didn't drop the temp soon enough, not sure.

    And I know it doesn't look like it but we were aiming for a steadily decreasing ROR. The ROR variability is more a product of the roasting software not being tuned properly rather than anything else.

    I was thinking of actually starting the roast with less heat and/or higher charge which would make it easier to get a decreasing ROR as the initiallly ROR would be higher. Then playing with airflow but still not sure.

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    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    How to get a sweeter filter roast?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFreddofrog View Post
    Thanks for the input. I'm not sure how we can get more aggressive. We did try a slightly hotter roast but got some tipping. It might be we didn't drop the temp soon enough, not sure.

    And I know it doesn't look like it but we were aiming for a steadily decreasing ROR. The ROR variability is more a product of the roasting software not being tuned properly rather than anything else.

    I was thinking of actually starting the roast with less heat and/or higher charge which would make it easier to get a decreasing ROR as the initiallly ROR would be higher. Then playing with airflow but still not sure.
    I just had another look at that profile and see your development time as a percentage is around 23%. So I'd say you've just gone too far and lost some of the sweetness. I agree that a declining RoR is the way to go, but for a Yirg you probably want to maintain a fair bit of heat to encourage a good, robust first crack. Make sure first crack is really rolling before turning the gas down then drop the batch pretty much right at the end of first crack. Aim for a development time of about 17-20% I reckon.
    So if you hit first crack around 8:45 and get a good 90sec first crack I'd be dropping between 10:30 and 11:00, as long as you've heard the last of first crack.
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    Senior Member readeral's Avatar
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    Just on the software side, can you send me a screenshot of your 'device' settings and the 'extra' settings? And also the value of you sampling interval and whether you have oversampling turned on? Keen to know how you're setting the curve smoothing, cause my hunch is you're not seeing enough data of what is happening. There'll always be issues with getting curves from artisan because of the way it polls for data, but I reckon you can get some more helpful info from it.

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    Screen settings attached. Any advice on these would be good. Sampling interval was set on 6 though I have now reduced that to 5. Seems to work better on the Behmor though I'm yet to try in on the Diedrich. Oversampling is turned on. Once upon a time I had all this set up beautifully, then I had a fatal hard drive crash and I've never been able to get it back to how it was.

    Artisan-settings.jpg

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    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    I just had another look at that profile and see your development time as a percentage is around 23%. So I'd say you've just gone too far and lost some of the sweetness. I agree that a declining RoR is the way to go, but for a Yirg you probably want to maintain a fair bit of heat to encourage a good, robust first crack. Make sure first crack is really rolling before turning the gas down then drop the batch pretty much right at the end of first crack. Aim for a development time of about 17-20% I reckon.
    So if you hit first crack around 8:45 and get a good 90sec first crack I'd be dropping between 10:30 and 11:00, as long as you've heard the last of first crack.
    Yeah, I normally aim for 20-21% and about 12C above FC temp which on the Behmor comes out great but I think you're right, I might need to aim even lower for the Diedrich.

    Qu, how do I get a reducing ROR if I only turn the gas down after a rolling FC? Do you mean increase air flow to drop ROR? In my original roast profile, the blue line is gas flow so you can see I am trying to drop ROR buy continually dropping the gas pressure. It may be ROR is actually dropping but the software isn't properly set up. Hopefully readeral can shed some light on it.

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