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Thread: Kogan Air-fryer roasting

  1. #1
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    Kogan Air-fryer roasting

    Hi, all,

    Just wanted to post regarding my (early) recent experiments with home roasting. After a bit of research in DIY home roasters, I decided to take a gamble on this device:

    Kogan Multi-function Air Fryer commercial link removed as per Site Posting Policy

    It has a (slowly) rotating cylindrical cage for the coffee (or food) and a halogen heating element (1100W) and fan.

    I was using it "as standard" with reasonably good results as far as I can tell. The beans were seemingly evenly roasted and got to first crack in about 13 minutes, shortly after which I would normally remove the beans and cool in a large saucepan in a sink of cold water (or "child waste" as my phone's predictive text thought more appropriate). The chaff was blown by the fan into the base of the oven, which is easy to remove and empty- nothing seems to blow onto the element at the top because of the fan. Remaining chaff can be removed by returning the beans to the cylindrical cage after cololing and shaking). 160-200g loads seem to work well - have not experimented with larger loads, but seems plausible.

    I decided after further reading to experiment with a PID. I bought a cheap one compete with thermocouple and solid state relay for about 30 bucks on the popular auction site.

    I opened up the top part of the oven case (containing the heating element and most of the electronics) quite easily and cut the wires to the heating element and fed the wires out of one of the cooling vents in the top to the outside. I then wired the PID to the heating element based on instructions on YouTube from Barley and Hops Brewing (very good and easy to follow).

    I installed the thermocouple by drilling a hole through the centre of the bottom of the oven (just below the rotating cage) and screwing the threaded TC (essentially a bolt) through the hole.

    I have only done a couple of roasts with the PID setup but I can get to first crack in about 9/10 mins (the original thermostat would start cycling after 5 mins even when set to 250 degrees - the max on the original device), but with the PID the heat stays on and only reads about 170/180 C at first crack (I set it to about 200 C). I have actually managed to get the beans smoking by 12/13 minutes (overdone for me, I think), so I think I need to try and ramp down the RoR at about 9/10 mins with the PID.

    Anyway, I feel that for the cost of the cheap oven and the 20 buck PID I have something I should be able to work with quite well. Results seems very replicable so far with the PID. I feel I have a device not dissimilar to a Behmor for a fraction of the money and minimal effort.

    I can post some pictures if people are interested.

    Lee
    Last edited by Javaphile; 1 Week Ago at 09:04 PM. Reason: Commercial link(s) removed
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  2. #2
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Sounds interesting Lee...

    You'll have to keep us posted with updates on progress and roast batch results.
    Always up for a DIY Roaster around here...

    Mal.

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    Some photos...

    I still need to install the PID and relay/wiring in a project box

    IMG_20170708_231021.jpgIMG_20170708_231047.jpgIMG_20170708_231652.jpgIMG_20170710_232527.jpgIMG_20170710_233214.jpg
    Last edited by Tomlil01; 1 Week Ago at 12:28 AM.
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    Surprisingly large on your stove compared to the retailers picture. Do you get much smoke out of it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    Surprisingly large on your stove compared to the retailers picture. Do you get much smoke out of it?
    It is quite large, but not annoyingly so. It still fits on top of my kitchen cupboards when not in use. I don't typically roast to a point where I get much smoke. When I did once "burn" the beans, the smoke seemed to stay largely inside and was only really obvious when taking the lid off. I normally turn on the extractor fan at this point or even when I start the roast, and don't generally notice much if any smoke, just a roasty smell. I was hoping to post pictures of the coffee I roasted last night, but don't seem to be able to post more pictures to the thread.

    Using the PID to slow down the roast around the time of first crack seemed to work very well. 1st crack proceeded slowly and I was able to leave the beans in for about 3 or 4 minutes after the start of first crack without getting too dark.

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    Having witnessed quite a few (small) chaff fires using a BM and HG, I reckon this set up should never be left unattended, especially if indoors. Some beans are excessively chaffy and lean themselves to the risk of fire more than others. Love the potential of this set up - some intrepid CSer will come up with a chaff mod sure?
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    Quote Originally Posted by noonar View Post
    Having witnessed quite a few (small) chaff fires using a BM and HG, I reckon this set up should never be left unattended, especially if indoors. Some beans are excessively chaffy and lean themselves to the risk of fire more than others. Love the potential of this set up - some intrepid CSer will come up with a chaff mod sure?
    I would never leave the roast unattended (if only because I'm monitoring the roast anyway), however the fan seems to blows the chaff around the very bottom of the oven very quickly like a tornado, 10 or 12 inches from the heating element, so I would hope a chaff fire is quite unlikely. Appreciate the feedback though.
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    Hi Dimal, how do I post more than 5 pictures? I was hoping to post a picture of my latest roast but I don't seem to be able to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Sounds interesting Lee...

    You'll have to keep us posted with updates on progress and roast batch results.
    Always up for a DIY Roaster around here...

    Mal.

  9. #9
    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    The system has a limit of 5 pictures per post. If you want to post more than 5 pictures then you'll need to put them in more than one post.


    Java "FAQ'c `R Us" phile
    Toys! I must have new toys!!!

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    Batch of ethiopian yirgacheffe that I roasted last night (200g)...

    coffee.jpg

    temp graph based on the readings from the PID (with preheat to about 150 before loading - which lets out quite a lot of heat). It looks like perhaps I should slow the RoR around first crack a little more from the graph, although in practice it seemed to slow down quite nicely. I took the coffee out to cool at about 13.5 mins
    graph.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile View Post
    The system has a limit of 5 pictures per post. If you want to post more than 5 pictures then you'll need to put them in more than one post.


    Java "FAQ'c `R Us" phile
    Thanks- I was under the impression it was 5 photos per *thread*, which confused me. 5 per post makes a lot more sense!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile View Post
    The system has a limit of 5 pictures per post. If you want to post more than 5 pictures then you'll need to put them in more than one post.


    Java "FAQ'c `R Us" phile

    Alternatively photobucket has a stellar reputation..............

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melbroaster View Post
    Alternatively photobucket has a stellar reputation..............
    Until like so many of their predecessors they change their directory structure and the links to them go bad or they simply disappear.


    Java "Far better to upload here." phile
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    Photobucket not so stellar anymore, this was published yesterday.
    http://What startups can learn from Photobucket's 'ransom' disaster


    What startups can learn from Photobucket's 'ransom' disaster

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Photobucket not so stellar anymore, this was published yesterday.
    http://What startups can learn from Photobucket's 'ransom' disaster


    What startups can learn from Photobucket's 'ransom' disaster
    Speaking of bad links. Here's a good one: What startups can learn from Photobucket's 'ransom' disaster | IT PRO

    And a quote from the article:

    The service is used by many people to host images that are then embedded on third-party websites such as Amazon, eBay and assorted messageboards. However, a recent update to the company's terms of service introduced a change to this model, cutting off the ability to embed images from all but the highest tier of premium subscribers.

    With little to no warning from the company, users discovered that their images had disappeared from their forum posts and online marketplace listings, replaced with a message telling them that they will have to upgrade to a Plus 500 account - charged at $399.99 per year - in order to re-enable the functionality. Users have also reported that they cannot download affected images until they upgrade.
    Java "Kiss my nether regions Photobucket" phile
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  16. #16
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    Had a Photobucket account years ago, I let it go belly up when the demands for money started.

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    Looking good Tomlil01. Hope to see some more pics and how this develops. Be interested to hear how you go with slightly larger roasts.

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    I'll probably stick with 200g for now to ensure I get consistent results with the PID, but I'll aim to do a 300g roast at some point to see how it performs. Not sure if I'll get uneven roasted beans. The cage is certainly very far from full (maybe 1/5 or less), so there is certainly plenty of room. Not sure whether it likely to slow the roast as well. Perhaps someone can advise what I should expect.

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    One thing worth mentioning for anyone thinking of using this machine. The square rod that the cage is mounted on is connected to the motor with a plastic "socket" on the motor shaft. After time (before I did the PID mod) the rod started slipping around the plastic socket. This was because the hole in the plastic had rounded off. Not sure why this happened. It was quite easy however to open the side of the oven case where the motor is mounted and remove the plastic socket - I just cut it off. This left the motor shaft with a pin through it. I then used a metal socket from a socket set that I had lying around, which fitted onto the motor shaft/pin on one side and the main shaft that the cage is mounted to on the other.

    Not sure if I had a faulty item or whether this was the result of running at higher temps, but worth bearing in mind.

  20. #20
    Senior Member LeroyC's Avatar
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    What RPM does the drum turn at? Can it be varied?

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    I can check the rotation speed. I am guessing only 3rpm or so - quite slow. If I try larger batches I might need rivet on some additional "fins" to stir the beans more, but seems ok with 200g. There is just one fin the full width of the basket as standard. It's not variable speed. The motor is accessible through one of the screw-on side panels so I'm guessing it could be replaced if that works in terms of the electrics. Perhaps it could even be wired to a "variac" (is that the right term?) to allow adjustment of speed and therefore airflow, but I'm probably getting ahead of myself!
    Last edited by Tomlil01; 1 Week Ago at 07:28 PM.

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    A video of the machine in operation, for anyone interested.

    https://youtu.be/JwIt34Qx7C4


    Filmed it tonight roasting a 300g batch, which turned out quite well. Perhaps slightly less even than the 200g batches. The 200g batch is in the red container. I might have removed the 300g a little early. Both look more uneven in the photos than in real life - not sure why!
    IMG_20170712_220621.jpgIMG_20170712_221231.jpg

    Here are some photos of the mod I made to the motor to replace the plastic socket that rounded off with a metal socket.

    Without the socket. The motor shaft with the perpendicular pin (after plastic was cut off).
    IMG_20170712_215846.jpg

    The socket mounted on the motor shaft (it's not stuck on but with the basket attached it can't move and doesn't seem to slip):
    IMG_20170712_215958.jpgIMG_20170712_220314.jpg
    Last edited by Tomlil01; 1 Week Ago at 12:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    What RPM does the drum turn at? Can it be varied?
    I just had the side panels off as I'm considering changing the motor. 2.5-3rpm is what it says on the standard motor.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomlil01 View Post
    I just had the side panels off as I'm considering changing the motor. 2.5-3rpm is what it says on the standard motor.
    That's very slow, but that might not necessarily be a bad thing depending on how powerful the heating element is and how much the beans are agitated inside the drum. From memory the Behmor is 16rpm, but I can't remember if that's at normal or double speed.
    If possible I'd still probably want a higher rpm motor in your case, and a variable speed one would be even better.
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  25. #25
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    Agree...

    With that diameter drum, should probably be aiming for between 15-30 RPM and 4 or so lifting vanes...

    Mal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    Agree...

    With that diameter drum, should probably be aiming for between 15-30 RPM and 4 or so lifting vanes...

    Mal.
    I actually just bought a 70rpm motor and variable speed controller. Trying to figure out now how to fit it as it is a completely different shape to the flat 240v motor that is standard on the oven. Hoping I can make some kind of bracket for the motor with some sheet metal and a Dremel, although I have no idea! If I can get the motor mounted then the next steps will be mounting the motor speed controller and PID in a project box. Slightly worried the motor won't like the heat though!

  27. #27
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomlil01 View Post
    Slightly worried the motor won't like the heat though!
    How is the original motor so protected Lee?

    Mal.
    Last edited by Dimal; 5 Days Ago at 05:55 PM.

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    Lee, impressed with your ingenuity. When I was looking at bbq roasters many got around the heat issue by adding distance, eg just add an extra 150mm shaft and two connectors rather than one. That idea may not suit your design though and does make the unit larger

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    How is the original motor so protected Lee?

    Mal.
    I don't think the original motor was particularly protected. Although the socket on the motor shaft was originally plastic and that was the only bit in the hot part of the oven. I was a bit worried that some motors might be more heat tolerant than others, but I have nothing to base that on!

    I fitted the new motor and gave it a test tonight. Seems to work well with the speed controller but I need to make some improvements to the motor bracket. Will aim to finish that tomorrow night so I can do a proper test with heat (and then coffee). I'll post some more pictures soon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 338 View Post
    Lee, impressed with your ingenuity. When I was looking at bbq roasters many got around the heat issue by adding distance, eg just add an extra 150mm shaft and two connectors rather than one. That idea may not suit your design though and does make the unit larger
    Thanks. I think increasing the length of the motor shaft would probably work quite well. However, I'm hoping that the motor might survive without - if not it was less than 10 bucks at Jaycar so not the end of the world. Getting the rotisserie working nicely with the new motor and my scrappy looking sheet metal mount is already pushing my mechanical skills to the limit.
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    Finished the motor mod today. The bracket seems to work well (even if the metalwork looks like it was cut with a lawn mower).

    Video here:
    https://youtu.be/zaGO2trsZcY

    Haven't tried turning on the heaters yet or loading coffee. I want to enjoy living in a world where the motor might not melt/explode for at least a day before I experience that almost inevitable frustration and go back to the drawing board!
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    So, I did my first batch yesterday with the new motor and speed controller. 400g. Nothing blew up/melted. Beans came out very even.

    I need to experiment with PID/temperate settings with this weight though, and maybe look into insulating the oven. Took ~13 mins to get to first crack, although after preheating I lost a lot of heat when adding the beans on this occasion as I had to remove some because the motor wouldn't turn with 500g.

    Video here:
    https://youtu.be/b8V6cow23QE

    The motor is perhaps a little underpowered. With the cylinder empty I can adjust the speed nicely. With 400g I need to have it almost on full power to get it to rotate. Does somewhere between 30-50RPM though I'd guess from the videos. 500g and it won't start rotating properly.
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    i am wondering if something similar would work (so many of them on ebay and lot cheaper than kogan) keyword: 13L Air Fryer Digital Multifunctional Oil Free Healthy Cooker Low Fat LCD 1300W and for 80$ including delivery.

    when you roast indoor under the rangehood, does your place still smell?

    Thanks

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomlil01 View Post
    The motor is perhaps a little underpowered. With the cylinder empty I can adjust the speed nicely. With 400g I need to have it almost on full power to get it to rotate. Does somewhere between 30-50RPM though I'd guess from the videos. 500g and it won't start rotating properly.
    To get some idea of the minimum torque required to properly rotate (lift) the minimum batch load you want to roast, you could grab a small metric spring balance; load the drum with the batch size you want to use; attach the spring balance to a length of string about 1-2 metres long after that string has been wound around the outside of the drum a number of times; then, while holding the spring balance in a vertical position, commence pulling the spring balance upwards while noting the force required to get the drum rotating and then how much force is required to keep it rotating.

    Once you have these data, you can then calculate the minimum output torque required of the motor/gearbox combination and the power required to rotate the drum at the preferred speed. There may even be online calculators on a couple of engineering sites to aid in doing this but it's not hard to work out manually...

    Mal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by caffaddict View Post
    i am wondering if something similar would work (so many of them on ebay and lot cheaper than kogan) keyword: 13L Air Fryer Digital Multifunctional Oil Free Healthy Cooker Low Fat LCD 1300W and for 80$ including delivery.

    when you roast indoor under the rangehood, does your place still smell?

    Thanks
    Yes, I think there are identical units not branded with Kogan for less money. I paid <$120 AUD on Kogan but now they seem to be $160 (in just a month or two).

    yes, you certainly still get the roasting smell. I guess it depends how powerful is your range hood. Whether you get actual smoke depends on how far you go with the roast, it seems. I never get too much smoke - I have not set off my smoke detector which is right next to my kitchen. You do get some smoke though. I normally just open the front door or window afterwards to let the smoke out.

    If you search High Torque Turbo Worm Geared Motor GW370 then you can find motors that would probably work even better if you're interested in making the motor modification. They are mounted at 90-degrees, so they would be much easier to mount to the oven case. Also, much higher torque. A faster motor does seem to allow bigger batch sizes without compromising the evenness of the roast.

    If you search Rex C100 PID you can find the PID, thermocouple and solid state relay kit for <$35 delivered.

    I will post back when I have done more experiments with my new setup

    400g batch - looks pretty even to me. Ignore the reading on the scales - I couldn't fit all the beans in the bowl. It didn't go down that much from 400g.
    IMG_20170718_225503.jpg

    Photos of the motor modification - as I say, would be easier with a 90-degree motor you can mount parallel to the side of the oven rather than perpendicular.

    IMG_20170717_204032.jpgIMG_20170716_215441.jpgIMG_20170717_204145.jpgIMG_20170716_215527.jpg
    Last edited by Javaphile; 1 Day Ago at 01:57 PM. Reason: Removed eBay link

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    G'day Lee...

    Yes, that roast doesn't look too bad. Have you had a chance to check the 'in the cup' results yet?

    Mal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    To get some idea of the minimum torque required to properly rotate (lift) the minimum batch load you want to roast, you could grab a small metric spring balance; load the drum with the batch size you want to use; attach the spring balance to a length of string about 1-2 metres long after that string has been wound around the outside of the drum a number of times; then, while holding the spring balance in a vertical position, commence pulling the spring balance upwards while noting the force required to get the drum rotating and then how much force is required to keep it rotating.

    Once you have these data, you can then calculate the minimum output torque required of the motor/gearbox combination and the power required to rotate the drum at the preferred speed. There may even be online calculators on a couple of engineering sites to aid in doing this but it's not hard to work out manually...

    Mal.

    Thanks, Mal. I have my eye on one of these GW370 motors with a shaft mounted 90-degrees to the motor. Much more torque than my current motor and I can mount the motor close to the case with a simple flat piece of metal for the bracket, and probably almost put the plastic cover back on over the motor - 10 KG/cm vs 2.1 on my current motor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    G'day Lee...

    Yes, that roast doesn't look too bad. Have you had a chance to check the 'in the cup' results yet?

    Mal.
    G'day. No, I'll probably give that 400g batch a try tomorrow. The 200g batch I made previously in the fryer tasted very good though to myself and my work colleagues!
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    Excellent stuff mate...

    Mal.

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    Fantastic to hear, I think it is about time i retire my popcorn maker from target! please do post your findings, very keen to hear and see them
    great work and thanks for sharing!

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    Quote Originally Posted by caffaddict View Post
    Fantastic to hear, I think it is about time i retire my popcorn maker from target! please do post your findings, very keen to hear and see them
    great work and thanks for sharing!
    Yup, I think the air fryer makes a pretty good coffee roaster even as standard. I've not experimented with popcorn poppers, but for 80 bucks worth experimenting I think, even leaving the machine as standard.

    I'd be interested to see what other people think. The popcorn popper is not intended for coffee either and has proven very popular.
    Last edited by Tomlil01; 1 Day Ago at 10:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomlil01 View Post
    G'day. No, I'll probably give that 400g batch a try tomorrow. The 200g batch I made previously in the fryer tasted very good though to myself and my work colleagues!
    What level of moisture loss are you getting? Weigh your beans before and after the roast to determine this. There's no absolute correct level as it varies quite a bit depending on the type of roaster used, but I'd be wanting to see a moisture loss of 12-17% using your machine. This is one measurement that can help you determine whether the coffee is properly developed or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    What level of moisture loss are you getting? Weigh your beans before and after the roast to determine this. There's no absolute correct level as it varies quite a bit depending on the type of roaster used, but I'd be wanting to see a moisture loss of 12-17% using your machine. This is one measurement that can help you determine whether the coffee is properly developed or not.
    Yep! I'm with you on this one Leroy, pretty good indicator.

    My preference is for a darker roast and I consistently experience a moisture loss of <> 16%.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelta View Post
    Yep! I'm with you on this one Leroy, pretty good indicator.

    My preference is for a darker roast and I consistently experience a moisture loss of <> 16%.
    Yeah most of mine are in the 15s with the occasional one being above 16% or below 15%, but that's usually specific to a particular coffee and how it needs to be roasted. Decaf is the only real exception and that's down around 12%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyC View Post
    What level of moisture loss are you getting? Weigh your beans before and after the roast to determine this. There's no absolute correct level as it varies quite a bit depending on the type of roaster used, but I'd be wanting to see a moisture loss of 12-17% using your machine. This is one measurement that can help you determine whether the coffee is properly developed or not.
    Thanks. I wasn't aware of this!

    I just worked it out. I got 14.5% on my last 300g roast, and ~14 on my 400g roast (can't tell exactly, as when I tried 500g and the motor didn't turn things got a bit panicked and I tried to remove 100g but didn't get it exact).

    Neither of these were dark roasts.

  47. #47
    Mal Dimal's Avatar
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    I'd expect moisture losses for this type of roaster to be on the lower side of the range, due to it being a closed system.
    14% sounds pretty reasonable...

    Mal.
    magnafunk likes this.

  48. #48
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    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    Quote Originally Posted by Dimal View Post
    I'd expect moisture losses for this type of roaster to be on the lower side of the range, due to it being a closed system.
    14% sounds pretty reasonable...

    Mal.
    That's good. Sounds like I'm not screwing things up too badly then. Still need to perfect my roasts with the new batch size and faster motor though. Been changing a lot of variables lately without much practice time in beetween!

    I tasted the 400g batch today and it seemed very nice to me. Don't really have the knowledge to describe it in more descriptive language, but as good as the professionally roasted stuff I normally pay $15+ for 250g!
    Dimal likes this.

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