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Thread: Companies cave to permeate pressure

  1. #1
    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Cafelat Coffee Tamper and Accessories
    CH9 - A Current Affair
    Story Monday, June 25, 2012

    Our long-running campaign for better milk exposed the industryís dirty little secret Ė now two major producers have ditched the controversial additive and the push is on for better labelling practices.

    Permeate is usually added to milk to standardise fat and protein levels.

    Labelling laws do not require the amount of permeate in milk to be disclosed but industry sources have suggested it could be as high as 12-16 per cent in some milk brands.

    So what exactly is permeate?

    Its a by-product thats made during the manufacture of dairy products including cheese and, while there are no known health risks associated with adding it to milk, its costing shoppers thousands.

    Milk from the farm costs processors about 50 cents a litre, while permeate costs only half that amount - just 18 cents a litre.

    Not only does its addition to milk reduce costs, but it eliminates the need to dispose of the permeate.

    Here is a list of permeate-free milk available in Australia:


    Paulís Milk
    Pura Milk
    A2 Milk
    Ashgrove Farm Fresh
    Aussie Farmers Direct
    Bannister Downs Farm
    Country Valley
    Maleny Dairies
    Norco
    Peel Valley Dairy
    ProCal
    Udder Farm
    Dairy Farmers

    Woolworths and Coles are also looking at making their own branded milk permeate free.

    from:
    http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/beauty/8489362/companies-cave-to-permeate-pressure
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    if someone wants to explain to me ACAs vendetta against permeate, im all ears - it seems to me that this horse has been well and truly flogged...

    Quote Originally Posted by 6D4248552C0 link=1340622249/0#0 date=1340622249
    Not only does its addition to milk reduce costs, but it eliminates the need to dispose of the permeate.
    idk, sounds like a win-win to me. unless you as a customer feel aggrieved paying "full price" for something thats semi-reconstituted, then getting very cheap and very consistent milk year round without the processing plants being left to dispose of the permeate elsewhere sounds good to me.

    of course, i use the term "full price" loosely - most of the permeates come in at ~$1/L while the nons such as A2, pura, etc are closer to double that (i seem to recall the permeates being $3/3L while the pura was more like $5.50/3L)

    my opinion though is quite moot as i dont drink dairy (bonsoy or so-good barista please). in my past life, however, when i used to go through a litre and a half a day, the non-permeates were never really good enough to justify the price difference - while they were almost always better, there was a lot more variance in quality and not really good enough to justify the extra $$$.

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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 7E7A697762447674697572757C441B0 link=1340622249/1#1 date=1340627031
    if someone wants to explain to me ACAs vendetta against permeate, im all ears - it seems to me that this horse has been well and truly flogged...
    Quote Originally Posted by 6A454F522B0 link=1340622249/0#0 date=1340622249
    Labelling laws do not require the amount of permeate in milk to be disclosed but industry sources have suggested it could be as high as 12-16 per cent in some milk brands.
    Im not certain that they need to disclose permeate at all?* :-/

    You have the right to know what youre buying. Good enough explanation for me...

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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Permeate free milk does not exist, its like saying water free juice, it wouldnt be juice, it would be in powder form

    Are you guys also against cream (fat) and retentate (protien) being added? So that the product actualy resembles the nutritional information label? Or do you think you should just get whatever and take the label off? Do you understand the need to standardize? I think there is allot of misinformation going around
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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 5E7A7F787E727D130 link=1340622249/3#3 date=1340660681
    I think there is allot of misinformation going around
    And I think a lot of misinformation and disinformation is spread by industry insiders who stand to profit by it. Perhaps for purposes of transparency you would care to tell us what your relationship to the milk industry is.


    Java "Inquiring minds want to know" phile

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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 1B3027302139383D34510 link=1340622249/4#4 date=1340661072
    ....Perhaps for purposes of transparency you would care to tell us what your relationship to the milk industry is.
    Hes the milkman. He brings the milk. Derr. ;)

    My logic is that if permate is extracted from milk, then added back to milk, then its just part of the milk, and theres nothing to be upset about.

    Also... nothing on TT/ACA is true. Ever. ;)


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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    It would be cheaper to just homogenize and pasteurise whatever comes of the farm, and bottle it, but you would have no idea what you were getting,
    I am a standardization technician (process worker)

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 43617C6D5B7C71646D3B080 link=1340622249/5#5 date=1340661510
    My logic is that if permate is extracted from milk, then added back to milk, then its just part of the milk, and theres nothing to be upset about.
    The problem is is that the permeate they are using is not extracted from milk. It is a by-product of the cheese industry and is whey permeate, not milk permeate. As such it is a different product with a different composition from the permeate that is produced from milk.

    Calling whey permeate a milk by-product is at best disinformation and at worst a flat out lie.


    Java "No connection to the dairy industry or the regulators of same" phile
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    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 75574A5B6D4A47525B0D3E0 link=1340622249/5#5 date=1340661510
    My logic is that if permate is extracted from milk, then added back to milk, then its just part of the milk, and theres nothing to be upset about.
    I dont agree with that logic. Any milk processing alters the quality. Ask anyone who is used to farm-fresh milk (straight from the cow). I dont agree that taking something out and then putting it back results in what you started with. There is processing involved in removing these milk solids, in the case of permeate, it is the product of ultrafiltration.

    According to the FAO: "Membrane filtration technology allows milk components used in making cheese to be concentrated (casein, butterfat) while producing a by-product referred to as milk permeate which contains the lactose, and some of the soluble proteins / minerals. This technology reduces the amount of water and lactose that is shipped to a cheese processing plant and reduces their effluent waste stream. Milk permeate is high in lactose, soluble proteins and minerals and can be used as a source of dietary energy, protein and mineral in livestock feeding programs."

    So it seems that adding permeate is a means of re-using an otherwise waste product and deemed harmless. To date, I havent believed adding permeate to be a problem but if it isnt, why isnt there full disclosure on all labels.


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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 23293C2B2B243036450 link=1340622249/8#8 date=1340663381
    I havent believed adding permeate to be a problem but if it isnt, why isnt there full disclosure on all labels.
    Exactly. The bottom line is truth in labeling. Stop lying to us via omission and be upfront and completely truthful about whats in the foods/products you sell!



    Java "With-out truthful and completely accurate labels consumers by definition can not make a truly informed decision!" phile

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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    "Whey permeate" is a different story, aca and that list of so called permeate-free companies are profiteering from the confusion and nothing more

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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 694D484F49454A240 link=1340622249/10#10 date=1340665288
    "Whey permeate" is a different story, aca and that list of so called permeate-free companies are profiteering from the confusion and nothing more
    Baloney. While your industry simply calls their additive permeate they admit they use permeate which is a by-product of the cheese making process. Hence by definition it is whey permeate, not milk permeate.


    Java "Shining the light into dark corners" phile
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 143F283F2E3637323B5E0 link=1340622249/9#9 date=1340664096
    Quote Originally Posted by 23293C2B2B243036450 link=1340622249/8#8 date=1340663381
    I havent believed adding permeate to be a problem but if it isnt, why isnt there full disclosure on all labels.
    Exactly. The bottom line is truth in labeling. Stop lying to us via omission and be upfront and completely truthful about whats in the foods/products you sell!



    Java "With-out truthful and completely accurate labels consumers by definition can not make a truly informed decision!" phile
    by that token, based on the way aca have mercilessly run and re-run this same "story" over the years, i would like to know if anyone associated with aca has any associations with any of the milk companies that they push as being permeate free, or if any money has changed hands in order to get these stories on air.

    but yes, more information for the consumer is great so long as they know what it actually means - a lot of the talk around permeate is that its bad, but nobody ever seems to say why. if this generates an irrational fear and i cant get $1/L milk that is of a very consistent quality from bottle to bottle just because the market thinks that permeate is undesirable i will be very disappointed.

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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Heres the process for dummies: milk permeate: take raw milk, spin it at 2500rpms and the heavy(skim) flings to the out side and the light(cream) stays in the middle. Take the skim, pump it into a filter(membrains) at 4.3bar and smaller(permeate) travels threw faster than the larger(protien/retentate) you now have 5 products (raw milk, cream, skim, retentate, permeate) to mix to a desired concentration for a specific product (full cream, reduced fat, no fat etc)
    Whey permeate : take raw milk, add some cream and protien(previously extracted) then add some starter culture etc heat it up, presto curds and whey. Take the whey, stick it in a spinner 2500rpms presto whey cream, whey skim, take whey skim, push it into filter presto whey protien and whey permeate ,
    For the record , all 11 ingredients have value and specific markets, there is no waste!
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    Senior Member fatboy_1999's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Wow. Lots of discussion.

    I must state at this point I am not going to offer opinions on this topic as I work for one of the big milk players, but we were told of this impending announcement recently and I am interested to see the continuing debate.

    Brett.

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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    If I was to say cheese is a by-product of whey production, omg ew run for the hills ! Idiots would be furious,

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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Sounds like a typical ACA beat up to me.

    Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    And dont even get me started on the "milk price war hurting farmers" the supermarkets simply take reduced profits per liter on milk, and sell more of it,* and everything else! taking business off the smaller operators, the price the supermarkets pay has increased! The export and domestic price of protien and fat determines the price the farmers get, the high Australian dollar does the bulk of the damage! And the rest is the speed costs are rising in Australia, compared with the rest of the world due to our welfare government, and green dictators and a major shift of productive employees to unproductive/management/hr/sales and marketing/desk jockey positions/pollies/Beuracrats/lawyers and leeches , all sucking lifeblood from the host..when the parasites get too greedy, the host dies...* 30% electricity price rise is what the farmers should really be worrying about

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    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    I understand that milk is manipulated for the sake of consistency, and I think its up to the milk companies to sell the benefits rather than treat or speak of consumers like dummies and idiots.

    Quote Originally Posted by 57737671777B741A0 link=1340622249/10#10 date=1340665288
    profiteering from the confusion and nothing more
    Clear labelling would reduce the confusion, would it not? That way, the consumer can make their own decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by 57737671777B741A0 link=1340622249/17#17 date=1340677726
    supermarkets simply take reduced profits per liter on milk
    Should we be feeling sorry for the supermarkets? If they are taking reduced profits per litre then all it suggests to me is that they have been gouging for a very, very long time. As far as I can see, supermarkets are making record overall profits, while making fewer brand choices available.

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 587C797E78747B150 link=1340622249/17#17 date=1340677726
    30% electricity price rise is what the farmers should really be worrying about
    ...only in the states that have daylight savings.
    ;D
    (a joke for the QLD no faded curtain dairy farmers)

    I didnt expect so many heated replies. The ACA story was emailed to me last night (I dont watch the show) so I posted a link up here.

    There was a story a while ago about some countries grinding peas with their coffee for price/profit. It could have been coffee parchment that they were grinding and that would get around label requirements. Not dissimilar to grinding whole cows and calling it mince beef.

    I think anything called milk should be milk, anything added needs to go on the label and then the consumer can determine if they want to buy and consume it.

    For me thats what this story is all about.

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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    A dairy industry insider emailed me last night...
    (might have made more sense to post here instead but I assume he is keeping his head down)

    He wanted to point out that "this week all of Pura and Dairy Farmers White milk becomes Permeate Free" (they are listed in the first post as being permeate free) and also wanted to point out that "the decision to remove Permeate from all white milk has been over two years in the making"

    I was also emailed some links...

    The process...

    [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=0rD6U0Bb7tE[/media]

    and Makin Milk...

    [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n2lhZQg-tA[/media]

    http://www.pura.com.au/permeatefree
    http://www.dairyfarmers.com.au/permeatefree.html

    PR backflip, conscience change or a postive spin by the guys in marketing?* It doesnt matter much, the end result is that we are talking about it, they are talking about it and the customer gets a choice.
    8-)

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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Hi all, After watching Food Inc some years ago Iíve had a majour change in how and what my family consumes. Unfortunately this doesnít always result in a better latte. Iíve been using 100% organic unhomogenised* Jersey milk which costs about $1.50 more for 2 lts (which isnít much in the scheme of things) to make my wifeís lattes but unfortunately all things being equal the Aldi brand milk produces a better micro froth. So my guests get the Aldi and my wife gets the Jersey* ;)* *
    Does anyone have any ideas of how to get a better result from the Jersey milk? It has a much higher fat content than regular milk? Would I be better off getting the homogenised low fat version?*

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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Buy pasteurized homogenized high protien jersey milk, if you want good froth, organic milk makes
    Me laugh "wow hormone pesticide and antibiotic free!" hormones have never been fed to dairy cows, only beef cattle, antibiotics are only used to save dairy cows lives and the milk they produce while on it is disguarded, all milk is tested for antibiotics, dairy cows eat mainly grass for there is no rush to beef em up , organic is a
    Joke, low fat is a rip off (fat is the costly stuff, just add more water!) 50% permeate aswell (oooh)

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    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 6F4B4E494F434C220 link=1340622249/22#22 date=1340781589
    Joke, low fat is a rip off (fat is the costly stuff, just add more water!) 50% permeate aswell (oooh)
    And that statement alone is reason enough to label milk properly.

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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 644B415C250 link=1340622249/19#19 date=1340687320
    I think anything called milk should be milk, anything added needs to go on the label and then the consumer can determine if they want to buy and consume it.
    +1

    Im happy.... as long as I dont get any orders for a quarter strength decaf half permeated skinny extra hot latte with 4 equals and a marshmallow.
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    CoffeeSnobs Owner Andy's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 527B666071140 link=1340622249/24#24 date=1340784996
    quarter strength decaf half permeated skinny extra hot latte with 4 equals and a marshmallow
    Do you have any vegan marshmallows?
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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 082C292E28242B450 link=1340622249/22#22 date=1340781589
    hormones have never been fed to dairy cows, only beef cattle
    This statement is meaningless as hormones are not only fed to cattle (Both dairy and beef.) but are also injected. As to hormones never having been used on dairy cows in Australia, in a word, baloney. Hormones have in fact seen wide spread use in Australias dairy industry and can still be used today as the ban on some of them is voluntary rather than ensconced in law. So yes, the label of Organic does in fact mean something.

    Quote Originally Posted by 082C292E28242B450 link=1340622249/22#22 date=1340781589
    dairy cows eat mainly grass for there is no rush to beef em up
    Up to 40% of the diet of dairy cows in Australia is comprised of supplemental grains while many beef cattle, especially in Western Queensland and in the Gulf, are raised on purely pasturage. While dairy cows dont need to beef up they do need a lot of energy to produce their large quantities (18-20 litres) of milk every day.


    Java "Moo!" phile
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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 230C061B620 link=1340622249/25#25 date=1340785618
    Do you have any vegan marshmallows?
    http://sweetandsara.com/


    Java " ;D ;D ;D " phile

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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 624D475A230 link=1340622249/25#25 date=1340785618
    Quote Originally Posted by 527B666071140 link=1340622249/24#24 date=1340784996
    quarter strength decaf half permeated skinny extra hot latte with 4 equals and a marshmallow
    Do you have any vegan marshmallows?

    Haha Andy.....maybe I should ask the boss if she has any hiding for special customers ;)

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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Well the gigs up, the dirty secret is out, permeate is being removed from drinking milk everywhere, resulting in 32%fat26%protien18%casein permeate-free lard blocks, taking over the milk market. now factories face an oversupply of the evil ingredient "permeate". In efforts to dispose of this ghastly by-product, companies are spewing large amounts of dihydrogen monoxide gas into the atmosphere, and secretly selling the remanding tasteless residue ( soo called "solids") to companies involved with biodiesel, mixed into many other products (like baby formula) and stockfood. Consumers find the processors comments and products hard to swallow......

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    Super Moderator Javaphile's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    What people find hard to swallow is the misinformation, disinformation, and outright lies being told by those in the industry. A number of which we have seen, and exposed, in this thread.

    Sheesh! The gall of some people! Objecting to being lied to, expecting to be told the truth, and having their food accurately labeled!


    Java "Jeeze, whatever is this world coming too!" phile
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 604B5C4B5A4243464F2A0 link=1340622249/30#30 date=1340851360
    What people find hard to swallow is the misinformation, disinformation, and outright lies being told by those in the industry. A number of which we have seen, and exposed, in this thread.

    Sheesh! The gall of some people! Objecting to being lied to, expecting to be told the truth, and having their food accurately labeled!

    Java "Jeeze, whatever is this world coming too!" phile
    I am with you there Java,

    The milk industry is just one example.

    I dont have an issue with permeate in milk per se. There is probably a substantial proportion of the population who either dont know or dont care- or both. In all liklihood they purchase solely on price.

    What I do object to is slack labelling law which allows to companies which have been adding permeate to pull the wool over our eyes.

    Add as much as you like and then label accordingly. The product then sinks or swims. Plain and simple.

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    Senior Member Bosco_Lever's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 1F3B3E393F333C520 link=1340622249/29#29 date=1340845483
    Well the gigs up, the dirty secret is out, permeate is being removed from drinking milk everywhere, resulting in 32%fat26%protien18%casein permeate-free lard blocks, taking over the milk market. now factories face an oversupply of the evil ingredient "permeate". In efforts to dispose of this ghastly by-product, companies are spewing large amounts of dihydrogen monoxide gas into the atmosphere, and secretly selling the remanding tasteless residue ( soo called "solids") to companies involved with biodiesel, mixed into many other products (like baby formula) and stockfood. Consumers find the processors comments and products hard to swallow......
    I do not want permeate or any other sh!te put into my milk. I want it natural, with as little processing as possible. So do many other people who care about what they eat. We buy homogenized whenever possible, and would buy it unpasteurised if the industry got their act together. I do not give a rats ass if milk has 4 or 4.432567% fat in it, I want it NATURAL. People are avoiding* processed food as much as possible.
    We should be looking to countries like France when it comes to food (and food labeling) and not to the USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by 06333E390D113D34343737520 link=1340622249/31#31 date=1340851975
    What I do object to is slack labelling law which allows to companies which have been adding permeate to pull the wool over our eyes.

    Add as much as you like and then label accordingly. The product then sinks or swims. Plain and simple.
    Well said! Agree 100%.

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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Ah I see how they can manage permeate-free milk! Leave the permeate in there so you dont need to put it back! Only problem is, they will now tell you less about the product,

    nutritional information:
    protien: somewhere between 3 and 4%
    casien: your guess is as good as mine
    Lactose: there is lactose in this product
    Fat: depends on the weather today
    Permeate:no extra permeate (though it is naturally full of it)
    product may or may not resemble this lable, may I suggest freezing some winter milk to mix with the summer milk when it comes around for better consistency

    Clear labelling at its finest

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    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    The word, troll comes to mind.
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 0D292C2B2D212E400 link=1340622249/6#6 date=1340661771
    I am a standardization technician (process worker)
    I believe someone is scared of losing their job. No more product to standardise.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0D292C2B2D212E400 link=1340622249/33#33 date=1340904470
    Ah I see how they can manage permeate-free milk! Leave the permeate in there so you dont need to put it back! Only problem is, they will now tell you less about the product,

    nutritional information:
    protien: somewhere between 3 and 4%
    casien: your guess is as good as mine
    Lactose: there is lactose in this product
    Fat: depends on the weather today
    Permeate:no extra permeate (though it is naturally full of it)
    product may or may not resemble this lable, may I suggest freezing some winter milk to mix with the summer milk when it comes around for better consistency

    Clear labelling at its finest
    Labelling:
    Pure milk untouched as nature intended it.
    No added products of any sort.
    Nutritional information:
    An average due to seasonal variation.

    Has it sunk in that this is what we want, and not some standardised swill?
    TampIt likes this.

  37. #37
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 2C2B3E313C5F0 link=1340622249/35#35 date=1340924541
    Has it sunk in that this is what we want, and not some standardised swill?

    Despite your insulting style of posting, I am not convinced this is "what we want" at all, I suspect most of us had no problem at all with our milk as it was at all, the fact that some of the permeate was added back into the process had nothing but a positive effect on the consistency of flavour and texture.

    Following a concerted beatup by ACA, that may or may not have been done in collusion with certain milk companies, the uninformed public have probably been conned into paying more for milk that is not as good a product as previously.

    It amazes me that when someone with specific and specialised industry knowledge (milkman) shares information with us, some then choose to try to assasinate his character and accept the information coming from gutter journos like ACA as being gospel!

    Personally I am pretty skeptical of this whole hippy move towards demanding more natural food, personally the benefits from the scientific approach to food production has produced enormous benefits and if you take the natural food movement to its extreme there would be no milk anyway because there is nothing natural about domesticating cattle and milking them. We would need to go back to simple hunter gatherer cultures to truly have natural food.

  38. #38
    Senior Member DavidW1960's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 7D7B766F777B631A0 link=1340622249/36#36 date=1340936223
    Personally I am pretty skeptical of this whole hippy move towards demanding more natural food
    Wow - quite a rant!

    I think its pretty clear that we eat way too much highly processed food and the drift to more natural food is a good thing. Most people dont want to swing to any extreem - hippy or otherwise.

    Ive never had a problem with permeate in milk though and do think its all a beatup by ACA and some milk companies as you say - but I dont see a problem in more natural milk. Now we will be getting it we might all see the benefits.

  39. #39
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 5D5B564F575B433A0 link=1340622249/36#36 date=1340936223
    It amazes me that when someone with specific and specialised industry knowledge (milkman) shares information with us
    Hello galumay,

    A couple of weeks ago I went to a GP who prescribed a new medication, and when I asked how it would differ from a previous medication he said with a wry smile, "Oh, its very complicated." I replied, "Try me...Im not as stupid as I look."

    Milkman reminds me of that GP, and only when he begins to post comments that inform in a respectful way, rather than with an approach of ridicule and contempt, will he get a better reception.

    If there is a growing interest in obtaining information about the food we buy, I fail to see why some people might think that is a bad thing, or why a company might resist or conceal information.


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  40. #40
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Wow Dennis, you must be reading a different thread to me!! It seems to me Milkman has gone to lengths to explain what actually happens and clarify the facts around permeate and the process of milk production - often in the face of ridicule and contempt.

    Quote Originally Posted by 61404B4B4C56250 link=1340622249/38#38 date=1340952707
    If there is a growing interest in obtaining information about the food we buy, I fail to see why some people might think that is a bad thing, or why a company might resist or conceal information.
    That appears to be a strawman argument, I dont see anyone in this thread arguing that obtaining information is a bad thing.

  41. #41
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 20262B322A263E470 link=1340622249/39#39 date=1340953804
    Wow Dennis, you must be reading a different thread to me!! It seems to me Milkman has gone to lengths to explain what actually happens and clarify the facts around permeate and the process of milk production
    And hes done it in such a good way....

    Quote Originally Posted by 0A2E2B2C2A2629470 link=1340622249/13#13 date=1340666682
    Heres the process for dummies
    Quote Originally Posted by 0A2E2B2C2A2629470 link=1340622249/15#15 date=1340670111
    Idiots would be furious
    Quote Originally Posted by 0A2E2B2C2A2629470 link=1340622249/17#17 date=1340677726
    compared with the rest of the world due to our welfare government, and green dictators
    Quote Originally Posted by 0A2E2B2C2A2629470 link=1340622249/22#22 date=1340781589
    organic is a
    Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by 20262B322A263E470 link=1340622249/39#39 date=1340953804
    Dennis wrote Today at 16:51:
    If there is a growing interest in obtaining information about the food we buy, I fail to see why some people might think that is a bad thing, or why a company might resist or conceal information.


    That appears to be a strawman argument, I dont see anyone in this thread arguing that obtaining information is a bad thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by 0A2E2B2C2A2629470 link=1340622249/33#33 date=1340904470
    product may or may not resemble this lable, may I suggest freezing some winter milk to mix with the summer milk when it comes around for better consistency

    Clear labelling at its finest
    Would be interested to know how you interpret this comment.


  42. #42
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Dennis, nicely taken out of context, how about re-posting all the informative info, with the responses of ridicule and contempt from you and other members!?

    Quote Originally Posted by 00212A2A2D37440 link=1340622249/40#40 date=1340954912
    Would be interested to know how you interpret this comment.
    I dont need to interpret it, he is actually reiterating the point that you cant have clear labelling (and hence accurate information) about the contents if there is no standardisation.


  43. #43
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Not taken out of context - just highlighting what I found objectionable.

    Quote Originally Posted by 75737E677F736B120 link=1340622249/41#41 date=1340955602
    I dont need to interpret it,
    And then you did:

    Quote Originally Posted by 75737E677F736B120 link=1340622249/41#41 date=1340955602
    he is actually reiterating the point that you cant have clear labelling (and hence accurate information) about the contents if there is no standardisation.
    We obviously disagree.

    So far, youve accused me of making straw man arguments, taking things out of context, and replying with ridicule and contempt. Is there anything else youd like to ad?

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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    No matey, i assure you, there is no Threat to my job, drinking milk is a very small Percentage of our market (less than 5%) so no hidden agendas here, i just feel insulted by this type of misleading unwarranted negativity. Just as I was when a soo called company insider started jumping up and down claiming "farmers getting 35cents per litre, and processors were getting $2.40"(because that was the price of drinking milk, in his local milkbar) and fooled allot of people that think milk from cows only goes to the stuff we drink*

  45. #45
    Senior Member trentski's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 65636E776F637B020 link=1340622249/36#36 date=1340936223
    Following a concerted beatup by ACA, that may or may not have been done in collusion with certain milk companies

    Why would some milk companies want to expose a practice that is saving them all money?

  46. #46
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Market share bud, the dairy industry is very competitive , those companys on the list are trying to snare contracts from companies who arnt on that list.. And trying to produce the best tasting, best quality, most consistent product* does not save money ...
    Actually the more I think about it the clearer this picture is becoming, ever heard of the phrase "he who smelt it dealt it"? I wouldnt be surprised if those companys are actually the offenders, very quick., and not a bad strategic move, tarnish others reputation for your own fart. Ha

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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    After reading other topics on other threads it seems increasingly obvious, that you guys are referring to other companys using not just allready present permeate, but Extra permeate, over and above what the original milk has supplied, in a "watering down" fashion. While I can only speak for the company I work for (which would find such Practices more damaging to our brand than the potential gains) I can see how companys involved with generic brands, such as Coles and Safeway would benefit from this without any repercussions, even possibly go as far as adding "whey permeate" to cut costs further. (such milk would be very low in protien btw) While this is purely speculation, I apologize for dismissing the possibility so early.

  48. #48
    Senior Member Dennis's Avatar
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou! I think youll find thats exactly what I and everyone else (apart from galumay) was referring to.
    dbd likes this.

  49. #49
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by 2E0A0F080E020D630 link=1340622249/46#46 date=1340988304
    After reading other topics on other threads it seems increasingly obvious, that you guys are referring to other companys using not just allready present permeate, but Extra permeate, over and above what the original milk has supplied, in a "watering down" fashion. While I can only speak for the company I work for (which would find such Practices more damaging to our brand than the potential gains) I can see how companys involved with generic brands, such as Coles and Safeway would benefit from this without any repercussions, even possibly go as far as adding "whey permeate" to cut costs further. (such milk would be very low in protien btw) While this is purely speculation, I apologize for dismissing the possibility so early.

    Quote Originally Posted by 27060D0D0A10630 link=1340622249/47#47 date=1341010904
    Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou! I think youll find thats exactly what I and everyone else was referring to.
    Yes it is. And thank you.

  50. #50
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    Re: Companies cave to permeate pressure

    UPDATE; in wake of this permeate backlash initiated by aca, my company has been forced to follow the herd an cave to the unwarranted aspect of this pressure. In order to obtain this so called permeate-free title We now have to ADD an extra component "retentate" above and beyond what is in the original milk, to standardize protien up tO the seasons maximum. While I believe this will have an opposite effect to consumers getting a more natural product, the consumer is always right. on a brighter note, the protien additive will assist frothing all year round

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