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Thread: Cholesterol - The Movie

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javaphile View Post
    Meanwhile their use in the US is set to double as Big Pharma has successfully pushed to greatly expand their usage guidelines: Not on cholesterol meds? New guidelines may change that - CNN.com


    Java "Isn't Capitalism grand?!" phile

    Java "Isn't Capitalism grand?!" phile[/QUOTE]

    Good grief. Scary. Love the "generic" comment. Given the US evergreening* strategy, I can just see that working (not).

    * The big pharma co's change a minor part of the formula so they can renew the patents. Look up the Aust US free trade debate of three to four years ago. According to the US it was not an important clause, yet they fought to the death to keep it. Result: Oz pays a lot more for a lot of drugs.

    TampIt
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavoniboy View Post
    Interesting.

    I will declare myself as a doctor here as I'm not hiding anything. I have no affiliations with any pharmaceutical company. The most I have ever been given from any such company is a pen, oh and a sample asthma inhaler when I needed one and mine was empty.

    I find it interesting that not one comment I have seen on here yet has gone to the original research, or the meta-analyses of the research, despite my previous link giving you the reference of a comprehensive quality meta-analysis.

    And please leave the no evidence for vaccines comments to your own delusional self. That's about on par with 'I don't believe in gravity'. This one is just loony.
    Hi Pavoniboy

    Firstly, I was in ASHB (Aust Society for Human Biol) for over 15 years (ex 1 was founding member). I also attended virtually all their annual conferences with her (would still be doing so if the other ASHB members could not cope with our continuing friendship after the split). The Conferences have virtually all the HB research papers for the Asia Pacific region, although often the spread was worldwide.

    The reason I went to the original research on vaccines is because my 21 month old son had a 400 word vocab and was normal in every metric until one day at 11am he had his "18 month ish" vaccine. From 11am to 2pm that day his lights went out. Three months later: diagnosed as severely autistic. Despite reporting it to the medical establishment in Colorado at the time, literally no one wanted to know. Neither ex 2 or myself have had even the smallest contact about it, and the group she is involved in over there has dozens of parents with similar stories.

    AFAIAC, something to do with that injection caused it, whether the injection, the carrier or some contamination. FWIW, I doubt it was the vaccine itself. How much research did I find in the HB / med areas that actually even attempted to make that link? You probably know the answer to that: Zip.

    As a result I take exception to vaccine / loony comment until someone (probably another private citizen) bites the bullet and has a good hard look at the cases and backtracks to causal links. The chances of big pharma doing that one in the US would be exactly zero in my view. FWIW, I could not even find a decent study which made the faintest attempt to run any type of autism / vaccine / control linkage study, even though a lot of the former eastern block countries would provide a good large sample.

    If you know of some research I don't, I would love to see it. Until that is available, I express serious concern about the recent trend we in Oz are importing from the US of forcing vaccinations on parents. In my case, hell would have to freeze over for three weeks first...

    TampIt

  3. #103
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    TampIT, I am very sorry to hear of your son's reaction to his vaccinations, I worked in handicapped schools for some years and I am still haunted by the number of parents that told me the same horrifying story. At that time I had my own infant children going thru their immunisations.

    Looking at the graph of the SIDS peak it corresponds to just after the 2 month vaccination (see graph below). Some years ago I did some research and found that Japan had so many adverse reactions to their 2 month vaccinations that they stopped mandatory immunisations at 2 months in the early 90's, their rate of mortality then dropped (see link below). In my search for gardisil adverse reactions while I was back working in high schools revealed a frightening number of young people afflicted after their injections. The US CDC (Centre for Disease Control) stated that some vaccination ingredients are neurotoxic, that was interesting indeed - I see that they have since removed this statement.

    Interesting web site reporting on cases settled for causing autism.
    Japanese & British Data Show Vaccines Cause Autism | ________________Child Health Safety_________________

  4. #104
    Senior Member smokey's Avatar
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    SIDS deaths Vs time (Months)

    Redirect Notice

    Bottom line is that not many people/children react badly to their immunisations, but when it is clearly stated (CDC again) that illness, including cancer, appear to be caused by oxidation/inflammation, then why not introduce natural antioxidants at the time of vaccination, just in case? Why not up their vitamin C intake for the week prior to the injections? Prevention, what a great idea!

  5. #105
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    Preventing Chronic Disease | In Search of a Germ Theory Equivalent for Chronic Disease - CDC
    In Search of a Germ Theory Equivalent for Chronic Disease

    Garry Egger, PhD, MPH
    Suggested citation for this article: Egger G. In Search of a Germ Theory Equivalent for Chronic Disease. Prev Chronic Dis 2012;9:110301. DOI: Preventing Chronic Disease | In Search of a Germ Theory Equivalent for Chronic Disease - CDC. PEER REVIEWED

    Abstract

    The fight against infectious disease advanced dramatically with the consolidation of the germ theory in the 19th century. This focus on a predominant cause of infections (ie, microbial pathogens) ultimately led to medical and public health advances (eg, immunization, pasteurization, antibiotics). However, the resulting declines in infections in the 20th century were matched by a rise in chronic, noncommunicable diseases, for which there is no single underlying etiology. The discovery of a form of low-grade systemic and chronic inflammation (“metaflammation”), linked to inducers (broadly termed “anthropogens”) associated with modern man-made environments and lifestyles, suggests an underlying basis for chronic disease that could provide a 21st-century equivalent of the germ theory.

  6. #106
    Senior Member Pavoniboy's Avatar
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    TampIt.

    I am genuinely sorry to hear of your child's plight.

    I am sorry that my comment about immunisation crossed paths with an experience of a serious adverse event in your family.

    I perceived your comment (seemingly wrongly) was referring to there being no evidence for immunisation. It was that perception of a statement of no evidence for, that I was calling loony.

    Many people come to me to ask about immunisation as they know I'm generally upfront and honest, and acknowledge the limits and risks of medicine. I am frank that a small number of children will be worse off for having had vaccines - there are adverse events, sometimes of the utmost severity. However as a population, we experience less morbidity and mortality by vaccinating against several diseases, by a factor of many, many thousands. As I state to those asking such advice, for every child who becomes seriously ill or dies from a vaccine, thousands would have become seriously ill and thousands would have died from the population not vaccinating. However this does little to console those families who are affected by a serious adverse reaction. I advise that as a population it makes huge sense to vaccinate, and they will reduce the probability of morbidity and mortality in their child by vaccinating. However, if they are the unfortunate one to experience the adverse reaction this will not console them, and their anger at medicine causing this in their child will not be mitigated.

    I advise people, in sum, that the population should vaccinate. I advise that in order to improve probability of good health in their child they should vaccinate. But I also warn that if they become the unfortunate few, their tragedy will not be less for the fact that many other children are better off for their child being worse off.

    I am sorry to hear that your child was one who ended up worse off.

  7. #107
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    Catalyst: Toxic Sugar? - ABC TV Science
    ►►
    Catalyst: Toxic Sugar? - ABC TV Science

    I find this is more of an issue than any cholesterol concerns people may have... I'm not saying its the best doco but very interesting.
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  8. #108
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wonder View Post
    Catalyst: Toxic Sugar? - ABC TV Science
    ►►
    Catalyst: Toxic Sugar? - ABC TV Science

    I find this is more of an issue than any cholesterol concerns people may have... I'm not saying its the best doco but very interesting.
    Fair enough, however it has nothing to do with this topic, why not start a new thread on the subject.

  9. #109
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    Dear Yelta,

    After reading the whole thread, I realized that it went off topic numerous times and I didn't think that me adding the link from catalyst would be an issue.

    Regards

  10. #110
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    No issue, if you feel strongly about it why not start a new thread?

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavoniboy View Post
    I find it interesting that not one comment I have seen on here yet has gone to the original research, or the meta-analyses of the research, despite my previous link giving you the reference of a comprehensive quality meta-analysis.
    Where is your link to the "comprehensive quality meta-analysis"? I can't find it.

    Since you're a doctor, I'd be interested in your take on these articles on Peter Attia's website. He is also a qualified doctor (used to work as a surgeon).
    Is red meat killing us? The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D.
    http://eatingacademy.com/how-i-lost-weight
    How a low carb diet reduced my risk of heart disease (Part 3) The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D.

    and for a very detailed look at cholesterol, his "straight dope on cholesterol" articles. Part 1 is here (I think there are 9 parts in the series):
    The straight dope on cholesterol

    I'm very interested in trying to eat healthy, as my father died from a heart attack at a relatively early age, and I don't want the same to happen to me. However it's very difficult to know what to believe when you have some very convincing arguments coming from both sides of the debate.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavoniboy View Post
    TampIt.

    I am genuinely sorry to hear of your child's plight.

    I am sorry that my comment about immunisation crossed paths with an experience of a serious adverse event in your family.

    I perceived your comment (seemingly wrongly) was referring to there being no evidence for immunisation. It was that perception of a statement of no evidence for, that I was calling loony.

    Many people come to me to ask about immunisation as they know I'm generally upfront and honest, and acknowledge the limits and risks of medicine. I am frank that a small number of children will be worse off for having had vaccines - there are adverse events, sometimes of the utmost severity. However as a population, we experience less morbidity and mortality by vaccinating against several diseases, by a factor of many, many thousands. As I state to those asking such advice, for every child who becomes seriously ill or dies from a vaccine, thousands would have become seriously ill and thousands would have died from the population not vaccinating. However this does little to console those families who are affected by a serious adverse reaction. I advise that as a population it makes huge sense to vaccinate, and they will reduce the probability of morbidity and mortality in their child by vaccinating. However, if they are the unfortunate one to experience the adverse reaction this will not console them, and their anger at medicine causing this in their child will not be mitigated.

    I advise people, in sum, that the population should vaccinate. I advise that in order to improve probability of good health in their child they should vaccinate. But I also warn that if they become the unfortunate few, their tragedy will not be less for the fact that many other children are better off for their child being worse off.

    I am sorry to hear that your child was one who ended up worse off.
    Hi Pavoniboy

    From 400 words to nil in a fortnight, remaining at that level since was / is a shocker. Unfortunately, it is far from unique and it is massively over represented in “two degree parent families”, at least in Colorado.

    My main point was that the research (apart from being poor & unscientific) in this area is being actively blocked. The Denver area has over 60 similar cases from 2003 / 2004 alone in one western suburb area and NONE of them have any means of reporting it. Although I could probably come close to rivalling your knowledge of "herd immunity" and a number of other vaccination factors (personal interest at the time), I am still of the belief that a decent open & transparent bit of research in this area may actually figure out where the problems lie: and surely that should be a high priority given the enormous rise in Autism / Asbergers / ADD / ADHD in highly vaccinating western countries. On a cynical day I think the death toll may be preferable to the living hell some of these kids are going thorough.

    The former eastern block had little vaccination, mostly "unsophisticated single or traditional multiple shots" and has very little problems with the autism spectrum.

    As usual, the western developed world has quite a few specific problems other than the widely reported obesity / diabetes.

    I repeat, I do not think the vaccines themselves are the problem. Although that possibility must remain open now we are getting increasingly high numbers of vaccines lumped together (perhaps they can create a perfect storm through some "generated in hell" synergy?).

    Unless you can stop parents talking to each other about key issues, the medical profession has little hope of “progress” in the issue of wholesale vaccination except via inappropriate “big stick” legislation: and that should be actively fought against until some decent research exists.Probably a PHD or ten for some Human Biologist & university brave enough to tackle it.


    TampIt

  13. #113
    Senior Member Pavoniboy's Avatar
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    Hi Bill.

    I said link, not hyperlink. Sorry for lack of convenience.
    Sorry but just don't have time at the moment to review those articles, will try to return to them at some stage. Going off the headings, i advise people the less red meat the better, zero is best provided you are sensible in what you do eat. The huge amount of processed carbs/refined sugars in the modern diet is killing us, but don't be extreme and go for ultra low carb diets - source unprocessed carbs in moderate amounts. And I always throw in the disclaimer I am far from an expert in nutrition. I received an incredibly small (aka inadequate) education on nutrition in my med degree and haven't dedicated the time to gaining a good understanding yet. When nutrition is very important, I refer on. The food debate is worse than the drug debate when it comes to how research is funded and knowledge is propagated. There is too much money at stake for our capitalist system to genuinely seek truth and disseminate truth on food. Even one expert that was brought in to teach nutrition to us at med school, got cornered by our questioning and had to admit she was not allowed to answer what we had posed due to agreements she had made for funding. That is, the expert teaching nutrition in a med school is not allowed to speak the truth because she had been paid to hide it! (The questions were around red meat.)

    TampIt
    yes, the big problems facing scientific knowledge today are brought up in what you say. Quality research costs a lot of money. This has lead to the only people putting up such money, in many cases, being the people who want to prove their product works so they can sell it, and only wanting to prove safety to the extent they are forced to by govt regulations in order to be able to sell their product. In terms of quality, in-depth research on the real and total cost of the benefit in a drug, there is no incentive for the pharmaceuticals to do this. Once they demonstrate effectiveness and that it won't kill or disable people left, right and centre - they can sell it, so why research drawbacks any further? Researchers who would like to provide better knowledge of drawbacks tend to not be able to get the funding needed for quality research as the investor has no profits to be made from such research.

    Until we can decouple research funding from capitalist investment processes, our scientific knowledge will always be skewed. Given current global political climate, this will not happen without revolution. Just read what has been leaked via wikileaks regarding the Trans Pacific Partnership agreement (mentioned above by Mal) and Investor State Dispute Settlement to see what I mean. This is an agreement Abbott is about to sign, which is not available for the Australian public to view (except now in part thanks to Wikileaks), but is open to be viewed by US corporations. One outcome of this agreement is if a company who is selling a drug in the US is denied access to sell it in Aus (for example because there is not enough evidence of its safety), that company can sue Aus for lost profits without using Aus Courts and Aus will have no standing to provide evidence, and no right of appeal. This is not democracy. It is a loss of sovereignty. It will be another big nail in the coffin of scientific knowledge in order for large corporations to continue their expansion and gain more power.

    These are some of the bigger issues touched on in the Catalyst program, which I hope get more attention. So far, it seems most people I have talked to came away with the question, 'should I keep taking my statin?' but missed the big issues of what the hell is happening to scientific knowledge, which my doctor and myself are relying on in order for my optimum health?
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    It's also equally possible that asbergers/ADD/ADHD are just more readily diagnosed now - there has certainly been discussion about this before.

    I think it would be a mistake to ever think that the diseases we vaccinate against are the lesser evil (when compared to the side effects). Even when they were using live vaccines for polio, those few that ended up with polio were still preferably to the epidemic polio was previously.

  15. #115
    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
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    720ABC radio just reported on an AMA full page Statin ad in one of the rags today, I didnt hear the whole story. Just wondering if anybody has seen the Ad?

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    Senior Member noonar's Avatar
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  17. #117
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    The advertisement headline reads,

    Statins
    trust your doctors advice.

    Certainly nothing wrong with the ad, very sensible and responsible approach.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavoniboy View Post
    I said link, not hyperlink. Sorry for lack of convenience.
    Sorry, I really didn't understand where you were talking about to find this link. I thought it may have been mentioned in a different thread because I couldn't see anything in this thread resembling a link to any study. But on further examination I take it that you must have been referring to a link on that article that you linked to. Somehow I thought you were showing a link to a study linking saturated fat to heat disease, but you must have been talking about the link on there about statins being ineffective for primary prevention. My mistake.

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    It's interesting to see that Sweden have now become the first western nation to reject the 'low-fat' diet in favour of 'low-carb high-fat' nutrition advice. They have changed their dietary advice based on a 2 year study by the Swedish Council on Health Technology Assessment reviewing 16,000 studies published through May, 2013. One of the highlights of the study was that they stated that health markers will improve on a low carbohydrate diet:

    …a greater increase in HDL cholesterol (“the good cholesterol”) without having any adverse affects on LDL cholesterol (“the bad cholesterol”). This applies to both the moderate low-carbohydrate intake of less than 40 percent of the total energy intake, as well as to the stricter low-carbohydrate diet, where carbohydrate intake is less than 20 percent of the total energy intake. In addition, the stricter low-carbohydrate diet will lead to improved glucose levels for individuals with obesity and diabetes, and to marginally decreased levels of triglycerides.
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  20. #120
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, the only way you can be sure about what works for **you** and that you are doing the right thing, is to review the research for yourself, and then do some trials on your own body/mind.

    Research summaries that do not match the data, dishonest research, cherry-picking, the lack of credible research where large amounts money are at stake, the lack of research funds where the results may contra-indicate medication, and doctors too busy to do the reviews themselves, all mean that getting good information is really hard.
    Sorry.

    Greg
    (working for 40 years in one of those fields)
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregWormald View Post
    ....review the research for yourself, and then do some trials on your own body/mind.
    Yes, I agree with this. I think it's important to get some tests done on yourself both before and after whatever change you make in diet or medication to check that you are actually getting an improvement, as there's no point continuing with it if it makes no difference, or makes things worse.

    I've been doing this myself actually. I've been on an 'intermittent fasting' type diet for the last 9 weeks. I got a number of blood tests done before I started the diet, and I'm planing to stick to the diet for 3 months before getting all the blood tests again to see what improvement (if any) it makes. I've also been checking my weight and blood pressure every day. So far I have lost 6kg in the 9 weeks I have been on the diet, and I have also noticed a decrease in blood pressure. I'm interested to see what difference it makes to my health markers when I get the blood tests redone. Hopefully I'll see an improvement in my cholesterol readings too.

  22. #122
    Senior Member Pavoniboy's Avatar
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    Bill,

    I would be interested to know what happens to your HbA1c (a measure to assess sugar/diabetes), if this was done on your pre-test and you are willing to disclose it after your post test. I know several people who are trying this type of eating pattern and am keen to see if it improves HbA1c for each of them. If you are willing, and you remember, I would really appreciate a message noting this, and any other significant changes. I realise it adds nothing to scientific knowledge, but am keen to see individual experiences when taking up this pattern of eating.

  23. #123
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    I'm a bout to start a FODMAP regimen. Recent symptoms I have had seem to match with what is mentioned in that diet.

    A few years back I tried a low-carb, high-protein/fat, high calorie diet. I lost weight, felt better and I swear even my hair went darker. FODMAP is similar except some of the foods I was eating back then are now contraindicated. I've been supplementing part of my 'normal' diet with homemade fruit and veggie juice, but some of the reactions to that have been unpleasant - looking at the FODMAP restricted list I can maybe see why.

    My intake is fairly healthy compared to most - most food is made at home from the basics, occasional pub meals, even less occasional pizza or fish and chips, no maccas etc.

    I have a Doc's appt tomorrow to do what Bill is doing - get a starting benchmark so I can see in a few months how much this helps.

    Still trying to figure out is beer is OK. There are some grains mentioned but the lists I have seen say 'gluten-free' is recommended - anyone know if beer has gluten? Otherwise I will have to restrict it to red wine. le sigh...

    EDIT: Hm... There's an O'Briens Pale Ale available with good reviews. Might get the local to get it in for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavoniboy View Post
    Bill,

    I would be interested to know what happens to your HbA1c (a measure to assess sugar/diabetes), if this was done on your pre-test and you are willing to disclose it after your post test. I know several people who are trying this type of eating pattern and am keen to see if it improves HbA1c for each of them. If you are willing, and you remember, I would really appreciate a message noting this, and any other significant changes. I realise it adds nothing to scientific knowledge, but am keen to see individual experiences when taking up this pattern of eating.
    Hi Pavoniboy,

    Yes, HbA1c was one of the things I had measured before I started the diet. I'll report back.
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  25. #125
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    Had a chat with my GP last week.
    He had just been at a conference with lots of cardiologists. The Catalyst program was a hot topic and predictably there was lots of huffing & puffing but not much inclination to re-evaluate the issues.
    Doc did an ECG and reviewed my CT Coronary Angiogram from 2009. We agreed that I was "low risk" and that the original decision (>decade ago - another GP) to place me on Statins may have been a bit premature.
    We decided to do another CT Coronary Angiogram to see whether there had been any progression of my CAD (any pathology, however minor, gets termed CAD)
    The CT will cost me $500. that is non-claimable on medical insurance but I am happy that the expense is justified.
    We will see how this progresses.

  26. #126
    Member ASchecter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky View Post
    We decided to do another CT Coronary Angiogram to see whether there had been any progression of my CAD (any pathology, however minor, gets termed CAD)
    I admire the level-headed approach of you and your doctor. Best wishes for a "clean" angiogram.

  27. #127
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    Thanks AS,
    my GP notes that the CT is not any sort of definitive answer (as in "you're clean as a whistle, you'll live to 100") but it is another piece of information that can be factored into any 'treatment' options.
    (obviously if it were to show plaque and narrowing everywhere I would totally re-think my current strategy)
    My wife thinks I am too obsessive about my health but I figure you only get one shot at the "Passion Play" and you owe it to yourself to try to be fit enough to enjoy it to the max.

  28. #128
    Senior Member Rocky's Avatar
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    Well that's the new CT Coronary Angiogram & Calcium Score test done.
    Beautiful clear pictures. My GP was quite excited. I couldn't help commenting that they must be "Doctor porn".
    No advance in plaque since the previous set in 2009. Calcium Score fairly similar.
    He made the point that medical science does not yet have a 'scan' that can discriminate between 'soft' & 'hard' plaque, so all the scans in the world do not imply any guarantees about whether you will have a Stroke/Heart attack or how long you will live. Apparantly they are working on an ultrasound test that promises to deliver the goods, however.
    We agreed that on all available evidence & risk factors, I am 'low risk' and given the unpleasant side effects of the statins, can justify ceasing this form of treatment for the present.
    This means I can now get off all the other 'medications' required to counteract the statins, with the aim of being 'chemical free' soon.
    I will continue to maintain a healthy diet and lifestyle and we will monitor my Cholesterol levels bi-annually just for the hell of it.
    We will do another CT Coronary Angiogram in about 3 years, and any increase in plaque will prompt a re-evaluation of the situation. It only cost me $300. (no refunds) so not expensive.
    I hope this thread has informed/stimulated some thought in others in my situation, and I thank all contributors for their valued opinions.
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  29. #129
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    That's excellent news... smiley-happy110.gif
    (well that's a bugger - those chaps are meant to be doing a Mexican wave for you!!)

  30. #130
    Senior Member Yelta's Avatar
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    Good news Rocky.

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    Congrats Rocky on the results.

    Now you can really enjoy Xmas (one weight off the shoulders).

    All the best.

    TampIt

  32. #132
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    Excellent news Rocky...

    Mal.

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