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Thread: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

  1. #1
    Gra
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    FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Hi All

    I spent some time with Mark from Coffee Roasters Australia this morning trying out a new small drum roaster that he will be releasing in the near future . This is a little ripper of a unit the drum is made out of copper with a rod through the center with a cool touch handle on both ends .

    There is two models motorized or manual they roast 200g all you need is a $20.00 portable gas stove and you are a way, The mounting bracket has the motor and gearbox that meshes with gear on the drum shaft and lets you remove to check you beans then replace with out turning it off..

    The big Plus with this little roaster is the way it roasts the beans you can go trait form roaster to grinder and pull a shot thats as good as any rested and degassed beans the pour is spot on no bubbling crema just nice honey like shot that tastes great. :P Another plus is if you for get to do a roast and get court short with no beans it only takes 15:00min and your back in business ;D ;D..

    Cheers Gra.. Ps: This would be ideal for the CS campers....


    *
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Since I have been involved with the engineers that helped me with the KKTO
    They do a lot of metal spinning

    I have drawings made from over a year ago & was thinking of making a baby roaster out of copper

    One model is similar to the old hand crank models one sees from the 1920s but the shape is more modern

    The other is like a mini sample roaster

    But I am to busy to start another project now

    Now I have seen them popping up on the net
    something like this photo

    KK

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    I while back there was a discussion i started about how copper might be good / bad as a drum?

    I suggested using copper for the drum, i never did experiment with it.....
    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1257821922/14#14
    others thought it a bad idea....

    hmmmmm time to rethink the idea

  4. #4
    Gra
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Quote Originally Posted by 5A7E777774744E5A7E627C7E110 link=1277375157/1#1 date=1277378343
    Now I have seen them popping up on the net
    something like this photo

    KK
    Thats the one KK they are made in Israel and modeled after early type roasters. ;)

    Very interesting concept as I said before you can go strait to the grinder to check your roast no down time :)

    This would be great unit for learning the pros and cons to roasting...

    Cheer Gra...

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Thanks for the plug Grahame...

    Funny thing is that I get better results out of this little baby than I can out of any commercial roaster. the coffee just behaves sooo differently...it contradicts a lot of stereotypes but seeing is believing and it works!

    I have had them here for a while but I had to go to Israel to understand it as I couldnt get my head around it as it is so different from what I had been taught. Its going up on your website next week and I will add some info on the Snobs site. I have been having so much fun playing round with it...it really is an experience and people really get blown away when I take the coffee straight to the grinder/espresso machine and pull a perfect shot.

    Its not just the copper drum, there is a science behind it in how it works and if you are open to new experiences it really opens the mind up on roasting just like the various brewing methods are doing for coffee extraction.

    Cheers....

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    is there anything inside? or do they just roll around inside?

    come on we need more pics.... :)

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    There is a skill to operate it for best results...but that is the fun and what makes it such a great experience as also you can try the coffee right away.

    Ill give you the juicy bits next week as the wife will kill me if I stay on the forumn for too much longer on a Friday!!!

    All I will say before I go is that it works on a different theory to conventional roasting heat transfer and goes back to basics in some other areas that based on this methods theory can have a negative impact on the coffee during the roasting process. I dont want to say anything is right or wrong because that is not true it is just different to what you are used to and applies some different principles for different results.

    Cheers...

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Let me say that this little copper roaster was a revelation.

    The PNG single origin espresso that Mark and I sampled yesterday, IMMEDIATELY post-roast, was absolutely stunning: rich and stable crema, even pour with no gas bubbles, great body and beautiful fruitiness and light acidity that made us go back for thirds and fourths.

    Some of the best espresso Ive had.

    Kit


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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    This has really wet my appetite, I have just got a handle on my KKTO and am keen to keep reading. Dont wait too long to update us.
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    Gra
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Quote Originally Posted by 3F212327293528292F274C0 link=1277375157/7#7 date=1277593475
    Let me say that this little copper roaster was a revelation.

    The PNG single origin espresso that Mark and I sampled yesterday, IMMEDIATELY post-roast, was absolutely stunning: rich and stable crema, even pour with no gas bubbles, great body and beautiful fruitiness and light acidity that made us go back for thirds and fourths.

    Some of the best espresso Ive had.
    Sure is a great unit so simple and easy to get a handle on and it just blows you away when it goes strait to the grinder to pull a perfect shot that tingles your taste buds :P

    Gra..

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Hi guys,

    I have had quite a few people contact me about this so Ill update info on this tomorrow with some detailed info as well as pricing and availability. Just been a bit hectic finalising stocktakes for the end of financial year....a bit over counting o-rings, gaskets and seals!!!

    Cheers...Mark

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Hi guys,

    Here is the info:

    The roaster is called the FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster. It is available in Manual or Motorized with the motorized version coming with a gear motor that drive the rotation of the drum via a 12V power adapter.

    Manual: $250 inc GST
    Motorized: $370 inc GST

    Pricing has been kept as low as possible to make it affordable for domestic. I belive it also to be the best and cheapest sampling roaster for a commercial roaster.

    The unique roasting result was inspired by reproducing the velox 1920.

    This is a 100% conductive heat roasting apparatus with ď0Ē convection, unlike all home roasters that are mostly full convection and built like laundry dryer ;) .

    The sugar and the oils, aroma and the body structure are being developed only by the conduction with hot metal.

    Air is added in commercial roasting to collect the chaff, clear smoke and to rush the cycle, once conduction is between the large drum and very tiny spot on the bean surface, you cannot apply extensive heat at once, thatís where air conduction comes in, air is wrapping 60% of the bean surface with heat, but ďdryĒ heatÖso you can apply more energy on the beans because of the large contact surface but you giving up fair amount of the aroma, sugar and oil.

    In the FZ RR-700 there are two hemispherical cupper domes, creating a small radius for wrapping a bigger surface of the individual coffee bean, using copper allows you to apply more conductive heat. In this roasting apparatus there is only allowance to evacuate steam and smoke via 3 restricted holes to create little pressure inside the roasting chamber during the final stage.

    It is about discovering new spectrums of flavours in coffee.

    FZ RR-700 can help many commercial roasters to understand and modify their profile for heavier body, enhanced flavours and wider aromatic spectrum.

    I use the baby roaster for sampling as it allows espresso cupping right away with out the real need to rest the coffee and allows me to especially grasp the flavour characteristics of the origins quickly and pleasantly. Above all the process is very enjoyable and something you could not replicate in larger machines due to the need for air introduction. It is the complete opposite to fluid bed roasting. Drum roasters are a combination of both conductive and convective heating and the will vary depending on the burner configuration (atmospheric direct or packed indirect) and airflow control. Most commercial roasters will try and limit the air at certain stages of the process to help with sugar and body development. If you have ever roasted full air for a normal roast cycle you will notice the weight drop due to dehydration of the bean when compared to if you limit it. This also creates different results in the cup and can be commonly refered to as baking the bean (or simplly sucking the goodness out).

    All you need additianally is a portable gas stove top which you can pick up for around $25 from camping stores and you have control over the flame regulation. There are no paddles inside the drum so during roasting you just need to give it a bit of a shake every few minutes to help move the beans around more. The end pulls off so you can view during the process. Generally the roast times are around 10-12mins but you can experiment as much as you like. Lower roast times tend to be brighter in the cup. The espresso is very smooth and sweet and makes it very easy to pick up the fruit and spice notes. I use the flavour and aroma notes taken from the baby roaster as a target for when I roast in the commercial roaster. I did a demonstration the other day for a roaster on one of his blends that he wasnt quite happy with and the result was totally different using the baby roaster which he loved in the cup. It made him totally rethink his profile and the potential he could achieve out of that blend.

    On the cooling side I just use a strainer or sieve and transfer between two of them. The coffee cools in a few minutes. But I put it through the espresso machine still warm sometimes with great results. You dont seem to get the grassy/earthy tastes and smells you sometimes get from young coffees. I belive it is due to retaining more of the sugars and oils that supress these negative notes. They may still be there but just are supressed to the extent that you dont seem to recognise them. I have been experimenting on different roasts using the machine and I noticed longer/darker works better for milk based and shorter/lighter for espresso.

    Sorry for the long note I am just trying to share as much info as possible as I have really learnt a lot from this little machine in a short time. It is a bit of a cult hit overseas and I think a great option as an alternative to the current domestic electric roasters in the fact that it is so very different. It is back to basics and opens the mind up to various methods of roasting and the differing results that can be achieved. As I said before I am not knocking any method as so much of coffee is subjective to individual tasted and preferences. This is just another tool that can help educate and above all it is affordable and can be enjoyed by the domestic market.

    At the moment we have sold out of the motorized version but have plenty on there way and should be here within 3 weeks.

    You can also pick them up from Cuppacoffee, Talk Coffee and Coffee Craft and I will update with other retailers when they come on board. I would suggest if you are interested to get orders in to be supplied once stock arrives.

    Cheers...Mark

    Additional info:

    Below is a video of it in operation by master roaster and cupper Ram Evgi who is the owner of Coffee Tech Engineering who manufacture the baby roaster.

    [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiKj041S9Yg[/media]

    Some photos:

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    I forgot to say any questions or comments on the baby roaster just fire them through.

    The pics on the previous post were of a roast I did of PNG Sigri A this afternoon and the results straight through the espresso machine 5 minutes after the roast. I have really been enjoying this origin by itself through the baby roaster as its given me a whole new perspective on this bean. I have always liked roasting with it (especially for training purposes) but in the past may not have used it by itself but more as a base or additive to a blend... I have some more Peru Santa Martha Estate (Villa Rica region) on the way so am keen to see what results I get through this roaster for it. I like it and its good value for money but have had some issues with the aging (a bit volatile) of it and the crema. Am hoping the baby roaster can give me some ideas to profile. Maybe I should check the cupping room as well ;)

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Hi Mark

    May have missed it, but what is the batch size?

    Rgds
    Ben

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Oops sorry...200g

    Cheers

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Quote Originally Posted by 6B474E4E4D4D7A47495B5C4D5A5B280 link=1277375158/14#14 date=1277961607
    Oops sorry...200g

    Cheers
    Cool, thanks.
    Have you played around with varying batch sizes to impact roast times? Or does this not come into play due to the fact it is not using air roast?

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    Senior Member Pavoniboy's Avatar
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    FZ RR-700 sounds like a motorbike - so it must be good! :D

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Quote Originally Posted by 13343F0E02510 link=1277375158/15#15 date=1277961902
    Have you played around with varying batch sizes to impact roast times? Or does this not come into play due to the fact it is not using air roast?
    Not really, I use 200g each time but less would impact the time and how much heat you apply as there is less volume and the beans will be in contact with the drum more frequently. It is really easy to make changes during the roast as the copper drum conducts heats very quickly so a change in flame has a pretty sudden effect. Ones the beans gain enough thermal mass though you can cut the heat and the roast will finish itself off. you can also let heat out of the drum by opening the end if you want to dramatically slow things down.

    Cheers

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Not sure if I missed it somewhere, but what is the explanation for not needing to rest the coffee before grinding/extracting using this baby? [smiley=huh.gif]

    Graham

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Quote Originally Posted by 0E222B2B28281F222C3E39283F3E4D0 link=1277375158/11#11 date=1277953964
    On the cooling side I just use a strainer or sieve and transfer between two of them. The coffee cools in a few minutes. But I put it through the espresso machine still warm sometimes with great results. You dont seem to get the grassy/earthy tastes and smells you sometimes get from young coffees. I belive it is due to retaining more of the sugars and oils that supress these negative notes. They may still be there but just are supressed to the extent that you dont seem to recognise them. I have been experimenting on different roasts using the machine and I noticed longer/darker works better for milk based and shorter/lighter for espresso.
    FYI

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    Senior Member GrahamK's Avatar
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Ahh! I missed it [smiley=embarassed.gif]

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Hi Mark, can this be used on a normal domestic gas cook top or do you have to acquire a camping stove ?

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Quote Originally Posted by 02372426203C450 link=1277375158/21#21 date=1278934134
    Hi Mark, can this be used on a normal domestic gas cook top or do you have to acquire a camping stove ?
    Hi Gracey,

    A domestic stove will be fine (but messy)- assuming good fume extraction ;)

    Chris

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Quote Originally Posted by 576271737569100 link=1277375158/21#21 date=1278934134
    Hi Mark, can this be used on a normal domestic gas cook top or do you have to acquire a camping stove ? *
    Hi Gracey,
    In theory you can, but unless you want your better half to give you a loving kiss on the back of your head with a cast iron frypan, I wouldnt.
    You still get a fair bit of smoke with this roaster, in fact Mark uses it as a visual aid to gauge how far along the roast is. When you open it up to inspect the beans you will also get some chaff flying out. It can be messy.
    I find it best to roast outside with this baby, especially when it comes time to cool the beans and remove the chaff.
    Stan

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster


    So where does the chaff aftually end up? Is it retained with the beans to be removed manually at a later stage?

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Quote Originally Posted by 75727D706A63727D6760130 link=1277375158/24#24 date=1279071636
    So where does the chaff aftually end up? Is it retained with the beans to be removed manually at a later stage?
    The chaff is retained with the beans in the vessel, it is a closed system with no airflow. Some escapes during the roast through the three small vent holes in the removable handle. At the end of the roast I tip the beans out into a sieve and transfer between two of them. As the beans cool the chaff flies away. You can also use a pedestal fan to help the process along (and blow the chaff onto the garden).
    Fairly simple as the roasts are only 200g (green beans).
    The taste of the espresso from this roaster is well worth the effort ;)

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Quote Originally Posted by 76434E497D614D44444747220 link=1277375158/22#22 date=1278935909
    A domestic stove will be fine (but messy)- assuming good fume extraction *
    Quote Originally Posted by 5156434C41220 link=1277375158/23#23 date=1278937449
    In theory you can, but unless you want your better half to give you a loving kiss on the back of your head with a cast iron frypan, I wouldnt.
    Whoops, Ive just remembered there are 3 unused cast iron fry pans in the pantry *:o


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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Well said Stan,

    By the way new stock has arrived!!!

    Stock is also on its way to Talk Coffee in Melbourne and Cuppacoffee in Sydney. Chris and Den will be doing demos for people in those areas and you are more than welcome to visit us on the Gold Coast for demos and sampling.

    These are not a cheap build. The drum is 99.9% copper with certificate supplied. If you have ever had to replace a copper boiler in an espresso machine you will know they dont come cheap. In fact we keep all our off cuts of copper pipes from when we set up the gas trains on the roasters and sell them to scrap metal buyers. These roaster will last you a long time, no need to worry about electrical faults down the track.

    The launch prices quoted on this site are a special for CSnob members as they will be going up in future. We just cant afford to keep them this low after launch.

    Manual $250 inc GST (gear motor can be added at a later date as an upgrade)
    Motorized: $380 inc GST (slightly more than previously quoted as they now include a brass funnel for easy loading of the beans into the drum as well as travel adapter for the 12V gear motor)

    I have attached a pic of what you get.

    Whether it be for domestic, training, or sample roasting in a commercial sense this unit represents extremely good value for money. Everyone I have done demos for have been very impressed. It roasts differently to anything out there on the market and really does accentuate some of the beans qualities. Mastering this little unit can improve your commercial roasting skills as you are using all senses intimately throughout the process and it also broadens the understanding of heat application and its effect on coffee beans.

    All questions and feedback welcomed. Like anything, nothing is for everyone so if you are interested but unsure please drop in to either CRA, Talk Coffee or Cuppacoffee for a demo. Anyone that buys one from our premise I will train them on how to use it effectively.

    Cheers, Mark





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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    With the arrival of the Baby Roasters, wed like to extend an invitation to you to come and see them in action at the shop.

    When: Saturday, 24th July
    Time: From 1:30pm
    Where: Cuppacoffee of course! :)

    Therell be a special guest there too! ;)

  30. #30
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    These are really a very elegantly designed little roaster 8-).... Cant afford one now but maybe a little later on... I can then toss my poppers for the council to pick up; not much good for anything else ;D

    Mal.

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Quote Originally Posted by 4F62666A670B0 link=1277375158/29#29 date=1279264680
    These are really a very elegantly designed little roaster Cool.... Cant afford one now but maybe a little later on... I can then toss my poppers for the council to pick up; not much good for anything else Grin
    That is exactly what I did ;D
    They are a great roaster, simple to use, and fully controllable. The options are endless! And yes the roasted product is very impressive. Mark knows what he is talking about, and he is extremely helpful. I highly recommend one, but issue the following warning:
    They are very addictive. You roast a batch and then pull an espresso straight away. You taste it, enjoy it and then think how to modify the roast to emphasize certain flavours and characteristics. You get carried away and do another roast,, taste,,,, another roast etc, etc.
    ;)

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    As a novice (ie completely new!!) roaster, these sound interesting. Ive been considering the Gene Cafe for a while, but then again a motorised version of this would be simple, and easy given Ive got a litttle gas burner on my BBQ.

    Now for the obvious n00b question - how do you monitor temperatures to develop a reproducible profile, or is it done by eye (smoke) and ear (crack)?

    cheers for the help!

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Hi Dr Jon

    The roast is done relying on your senses. I never profile a roast in it, I dont find it fun that way and I dont really learn anything. I rely on a general roast time of 10-12 mins so I use a stop watch and regulate the flame on the burner during the process to stay within the targeted time limits and taking mental notes of when each critical changes occurs (ie green to yellow to brown, 1st/2nd cracks, smells, smoke and chaff emitted) to make sure all is on track. Off course you can profile anything but why over complicate it or make more work for yourself, it is very easy to get a good result in this machine and you learn a lot more by honing your senses and feeling your way through it. If I am roasting for a commercial sense then yes I profile as you need to have consistency for customers and the margin for error is more. But with this device I want to have fun with it rather than boringly repeating the exact same process over and over again. If you want to profile use the settings on the gas flame knob and record the time intervals that you make the changes. The drum is 99.9% copper so extremely conductive and changes in heat are instantaneous so you have a lot of control and your senses ie sight, feel and smell are interacting more with the roast. I have done really short roasts and much longer roasts with different results but still ones that I enjoyed and learnt from.

    Cheers
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Thanks Mark - thats a really well-reasoned reply and makes a lot of sense, given that the science of roasting can be well documented and therefore all the variables easily manipulated, but it doesnt explain the art or feel side of things at all....

    very interesting product, and Ill chat to Dennis or Chris very soon to stick an order in I think.

    Well done on bringing such a simple but innovative product to market here :)

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Quote Originally Posted by 5F6A7970797553180 link=1277375158/20#20 date=1278625663
    Ahh! I missed it
    Yes, I missed it too. I still dont understand what is it with this roasting process that removes the need for the beans to degas (?)

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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Quote Originally Posted by 3934293A2F6A69685B0 link=1277375158/34#34 date=1279324387
    Yes, I missed it too. *I still dont understand what is it with this roasting process that removes the need for the beans to degas (?)
    The variation in airflow changes the bean characterisics. Its a different way of roasting.

  37. #37
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Quote Originally Posted by 212C312237727170430 link=1277375158/34#34 date=1279324387
    Yes, I missed it too.I still dont understand what is it with this roasting process that removes the need for the beans to degas (?)
    As Chris said this is a different way of roasting. Rather than trying to analyze why, the best thing is to open your mind and accept it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 002C25252626112C223037263130430 link=1277375158/4#4 date=1277450312
    I have had them here for a while but I had to go to Israel to understand it as I couldnt get my head around it as it is so different from what I had been taught.
    Then all you have to do is enjoy roasting, follow Marks advice and hone your skills. It really is that simple. I gave up trying to work out why the beans dont need to degas, and just enjoy the fact that you can drink the coffee straight away. Good results are easy to obtain. Lighter roasts are better for espresso as the fruity flavours really shine through.
    Each roast is a new experience and a new taste to enjoy. I keep brief notes, but make small changes each time. I have tried darker roasts with Yemen beans and got amazing chocolate flavours.

    Overall, simple to use, lots of fun and great results. What more do you need?


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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Quote Originally Posted by 6760757A77140 link=1277375158/36#36 date=1279330968
    Rather than trying to analyze why
    Thats what we do Lwowiak, the best thing is to open your mind and accept it. ;D

    Jokes mate, some of us MUST ask why, thats part the reason were snobs!

  39. #39
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Itís an interesting question the whole degassing and aging thing with coffee. It kind of peeves me off having the wait to try the coffee and trying to work out the ideal aging period etc etc etc. I am sure there are many differing points of view out there.

    I do have some ideas though...note these are only theories based on my experimentation but happy to share and receive feedback.

    I kind of wanted to challenge whether it is really the degassing of the coffee that helps it with age as from what I have been taught from a scientific point is that most of gases escape within 48 hours after roast yet in a lot of instances you can wait 5-14 days before the coffee really peaks in body, aroma and flavour. Maybe itís not primarily the degassing, maybe something else, or maybe a combination of factors (most likely I think).

    Anyway it kind of got me thinking with the baby roaster where flavour is there after the roast and you get a nice aroma in a relatively short time. It doesnt smell anything like a freshly ground bean from when I run through a commercial roast or some domestic electric units shortly after the roast which can be undrinkable.
    I have experimented a bit with different theories as to what is going on and I am kind of embarrassed to say but watching shows like Masterchef or other cooking shows where you see top chefs at work really got me thinking. Also going back to basics on the baby roaster and not relying on anything other than senses to roast really helped me to try some different things.

    My thoughts are that general cooking theories translate to roasting coffee as well. It is really an organic food that is cooked much like various other foods. It is though proven to be very complex chemical reactions that take place but all in all it is really a type of cooking that you are doing. I have seen experts with brilliantly trained pallets talk about all the chemical reactions that take place but still dont really understand in great detail how all this translates during the roasting process to make better coffee etc etc. Many people still follow cupping rules of 1st crack has to be in this time and you have to drop at this temp and you need an S curve profile. Not saying that anything is wrong or right by any means but more so that the boundaries are endless and that there is nothing wrong with really challenging the norms and experimenting outside these in order to explore new territory.

    If you watch the good chefs at work they will cover foods when putting them in an oven to keep them moist and lock in the flavours by having them cook in their own juices minimising evaporation and drying out. You do it with meats, fish, vegies, itís a well know fact that slow roasting and pressure cooking really does wonders for flavour. The roasting process in the Baby Roaster is done by 100% conductive heat through the drum wall in a mostly sealed drum with no airflow other than what is created by the pressure inside the drum. The air is very moist inside the drum, you can feel it from the air that is evacuated from the holes on the side of the drum. The beans begin the caramelising process with a lot more moisture retained. They are also heavier when dumped as you dont get as much dehydrating or expanding of the bean during the process. Obviously this creates a different environment for the bean to undergo those well documented chemical reactions. I dont think you sacrifice anywhere near as much sugar and oils during this process so they are more prevalent after the roast and noticeable in the cup. Air introducing in conventional roasting is dry heat as you need for a variety of reasons to clear the smoke, remove the chaff and mainly to be able to apply enough heat to a larger batch of beans. For commercial roasters you cant apply enough heat through a drum wall to evenly roast a large batch of beans. Remember they are odd shaped and air will wrap more of the bean surface enabling more heat to be applied and will result in a more even roast. You are sacrificing more when doing this though as you will dehydrate the bean quicker....like a hot dry wind on your skin does. Try cooking just with hot air and the end result will most likely be a dry and less flavoursome food.

    I am sure degassing helps as it give time for the volatile compounds within the coffee to settle. You do notice it through an expresso machine as the crema tends to settle and you get less bubbling from the extraction. Anyway to relate it back to aging. I think the sugars and oils in the coffee play a big part in aging and development of the coffee. Ever made a marinade or sauce...it will usually get better with age once everything sits and blends together. Once it sits it thickens up and the flavours strengthen. I think with this device it retains more sugars and oils so you donít have to wait for it to become present in the cup. Maybe the pressure of the water in the extraction from the expresso machine captures more of this quicker with the Baby Roaster. Or maybe the reactions taking place in a different roasting environment makes certain compounds less volatile. I am not a scientist so am only really guessing here based on what makes sense to me. One thing that does improve with age from the coffee out of the baby roaster is body. If you wait a couple of hours or next day the body will be thicker.

    I experimented in one of our commercial roasters, a 15kg machine. I had a bean that I was running conventional profiles on that I couldnít get a decent cup out of for at least 10 days. Trying to extract it before that time was useless; the crema was so thick and jelly like and flavour was very undeveloped. But at around 10 days it all settled down and the coffee was good. Anyway basically I tried something totally different after gaining some ideas from the baby roaster as well as from cooking at home trying to caramelise onions. Basically you need to caramalise the onions by cooking on low heat slowly for about Ĺ hour with some sugar. What I did was slow roast the beans with a drop temp of 160deg (all temps are air temp) then moved to 190deg for 10 minutes knowing this temp would not be enough to brown the beans. During this time I limited the air as much as I could. I then roasted for another 7-8mins at 230deg with the aim of not quite taking it to first crack but keeping it at a level where if I wanted to I could induce the 1st crack fairly quickly (I know that air temp on my roaster of around 240-250deg will induce 1st crack). At 18 mins I changed the temp to 250deg and 1st crack happened at about the 20 min mark. During this time I had the air on as low as I could (I have a variable speed air fan on the afterburner) so that the I could limit the moisture loss of the bean before 1st crack but also give plenty of time for the caramalisation process to happen. The final roast time ended up being about 25 mins, it looked absolutely brilliant when I dumped and the beans still had decent weight in them besides being smooth with maximum expansion (they werenít baked at all).

    I bagged the beans up on a Saturday and decided to try them on the Monday. The result was completely different. The coffee poured beautifully, was very flavoursome, sweet with a good balance of acidity as an espresso and didnít have anywhere near the volatility of previous roasts using conventional profiles I had run.

    The moral of the story...try something different and you never know you may be surprised and above all you will learn something. Nothing wrong with that ;)


  40. #40
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Well Im looking forward to getting my hands on one. I like the option of producing a smaller roast with immediate drinkability. I can see how will it be a great sample roaster for the commercial roasters but I like the potential for blending: do one 500gram roast then try a couple of 200g roasts using the Baby Roaster (hmm - perhaps best not to call it that :-[ )

    When using a corretto, most of my roasts took 10-12 days to develop but I usually started drinking at Day 7 or 8.

    With the KKTO, now that I have been able to produce consistently good roasts, Im finding that the roast is at its best from Day 14 onwards with the last 3 roasts: (Malawi + Sumatra, Peru Ceja de Selva and now Honduras Los Bancos). Before day 12, they havent been very nice.

  41. #41
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Hi Mark,
    Long slow roasts may also work well in the Baby Roaster. By accident (I ran out of gas) I did a roast that started on full flame and then died down after 2minutes. There was a very low flame while I hunted around for another gas bottle. For about 9 minutes it was heating on a low flame, then I increased it (new gas bottle) to three quarters. First crack started at 12 minutes. I eased off the heat to low, turned it off at 15 minutes and let the thermal mass do its trick. Roast stopped at 19 minutes. Second crack was just starting. Uneven roast, but magnificent aroma (Ethiopian Yirg from June beanbay). The espresso was delicious, full of body and aroma. Even better today.
    Just goes to show what you can discover by trying something different.

    By the way, Bunnings have a portable gas stove for $17 and a four pack of butane bottles for $5.

    Cheers,
    Stan.

  42. #42
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Wow thats cheap...think Ill get my next bottles from Bunnings. Thanks for the tip too...I like that bean but never actually roasted it, might have to get my hands on some and give that a go.....cheers

  43. #43
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    How do you judge color in this roaster? I the video you see the guy peering in a few times, but isnt it pitch dark inside?

  44. #44
    Senior Member flynnaus's Avatar
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Quote Originally Posted by 24232324323C3738560 link=1277375158/42#42 date=1279682232
    you see the guy peering in a few times, but isnt it pitch dark inside?
    I think you answered your own question - assume it isnt pitch dark inside when you open for inspection and you have the lights on.

  45. #45
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Yep right assumption...you just lift up to the light and it is easy to see the colour or as I do sometimes is just drop a couple out.

    Cheers

  46. #46
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Would be really easy to knock up a simple Trier/Sampler too Id reckon, cant beat daylight as the best light source.... 8-)

    Mal.

  47. #47
    Senior Member GregJW's Avatar
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    This is a really interesting piece of equipment and an interesting thought process youve got going there, Mark. I cant wait to have a look at a Baby at Denniss on Saturday.

    Over the past week or so (inspired by the above posts), Ive altered my Corretto roasting technique. Ive always slowed the roast at first crack by turning the temp on the heat gun down whilst maintaining air flow. As with Steve, my roasts have to de-gas at least about 9 (or even 14) days before they reach their peak.

    Im now trying to get more of a conductive heat process going after first crack by maintaining the temperature, but lowering the airflow. It certainly results in more smoke and chaff being retained in the roast. Bit early to tell yet whether the drying out process has been reduced and the "de-gas" period shortened. Im expecting it may well be.

    Anyway, looking forward to Saturday.

    Greg


  48. #48
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    See you there Greg, be good to catch up again.

    Chris

  49. #49
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Quote Originally Posted by 437661634E53040 link=1277375158/46#46 date=1279715072
    Im now trying to get more of a conductive heat process going after first crack by maintaining the temperature, but lowering the airflow. It certainly results in more smoke and chaff being retained in the roast. Bit early to tell yet whether the drying out process has been reduced and the "de-gas" period shortened. Im expecting it may well be.
    Would be interesting to see what results you get. I havent roasted with a Corretto so am not that familiar with it. You only really need stronger air flow after the yellow stage towards 1st crack as this is when they will start to smoke and lose chaff. Maybe try also limiting the airflow earlier on as an alternative and then if you can pulse the airflow at short intervals once you get towards 1st crack that way you can clear some of the smoke and chaff (too much smoke after 1st crack for an extended period of time will probably present in the cup and be unpleasant). Not sure of you can do in the Corretto. Also once you reach well into 1st crack the beans have plenty of thermal evergy and usually dont require the continued application of heat to them if you are just trying for a drop right at the beginning of the second crack. You will find the temp should still rise without heat applied before stabling off. More so generally in a small roaster with a small chamber. By limiting the air you will find you will sacrifice some eveness of the roast as the heat will mainly be applied to a smaller surface area on the bean (if through a drum wall). I have found that this generally does not effect the roast as long as the variation in eveness is not too extreme and there are no burnt parts to the beans. In the larger roasters you can still get a very even roast due to the unsulated heat created in the combustion chamber so by applying playing around and limiting the air speed you should still be able to get a commercially presentable roast. I know a lot of commercial roasters do this.

    The smoke from the Baby Roaster evacuates through pressure out some vent holes so has the advantage of not making the roasts smokey even though you are not introducing any new air to the drum. It is too hard to replicate on a larger scale so unfortunately roasting this way is limited to small batch. Main reason for this is that the bigger the batch size you really need to introduce more and more convective heat otherwise you would not be able to apply enough heat to roast the bean evenly and efficiently. Thats why good insluation in the large industrial roasters is extremely important to maintaining the heat inside the drum housing meaning you can play around with the amounts of airflow from fans creating a better mix of these different heat appliactions. I think you will find most comemrcial roasters will have there won theories on airflow but for most of the ones I speak to they know its effect is more than just clearing smoke and chaff.

    Maybe if someone has a Corretto on the Gold Coast and they want to drop in I would be interested to have a look at it and see what it does. Have seen pics but never seen it in action.

    Cheers

  50. #50
    Gra
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    Re: FZ-RR 700 Baby Roaster

    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    Quote Originally Posted by 0C2029292A2A1D202E3C3B2A3D3C4F0 link=1277375158/48#48 date=1279760864
    Maybe if someone has a Corretto on the Gold Coast and they want to drop in I would be interested to have a look at it and see what it does. Have seen pics but never seen it in action.
    Hi Mark

    I will come down and bring the turbo *and heat gun setup. *I have used the motor out of my BM for the turbo but buy using *it with the heat gun would give the same results I recon.. after lunch tomorrow OK!

    Cheers Graham..

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