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Thread: Aillio R1 Bullet

  1. #101
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    Looks great, hopefully there will be few second hand hottops for sale when this comes out
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  2. #102
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    Aillio News: Things Are Heating Up!
    We are happy to report that the first Bullets have already shipped and been received in Australia and Singapore!
    last newsletter.
    did anybody get the roaster already?

  3. #103
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    Very interested to see some reviews
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  4. #104
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    I bet Chris has one!
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcism View Post
    I bet Chris has one!
    Sadly not yet....Waiting, waiting, waiting...

    I'm flying up to Sydney next week to have a day's play at ECA. Pix and vid to come...
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  6. #106
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    I watched a roast from start to finish at MICE. I have to say - very impressive. Amazing roaster for the $

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    Any pictures, K?

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    Quote Originally Posted by K_Bean_Coffee View Post
    I watched a roast from start to finish at MICE. I have to say - very impressive. Amazing roaster for the $
    What is the price? Way too many people standing around it at MICE to get a $ figure

  9. #109
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    Yet to be set by the importer but probably somewhere around $4k.

    We have one preorder cancellation available- one client has moved overseas.

    Aillio Bullet R1 preorder deposit | Talk Coffee

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Yet to be set by the importer but probably somewhere around $4k.

    We have one preorder cancellation available- one client has moved overseas.

    Aillio Bullet R1 preorder deposit | Talk Coffee
    Wow - but then a Hottop pushes over $2k these days....

    Are you still dealing in has garanti Chris?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    We have one preorder cancellation available- one client has moved overseas.
    Not anymore

    I was going to wait to see the reviews on the initial batch, but hey this coffee obsession crossed the reasonable thought process a while ago!

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    Quote Originally Posted by evro50 View Post
    Not anymore

    I was going to wait to see the reviews on the initial batch, but hey this coffee obsession crossed the reasonable thought process a while ago!
    Nice work. Would be good to see this side by side against a Sola 1kg, Proaster 1kg and a Probat sample roaster and see how it stacks up

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by melbuurn View Post
    Nice work. Would be good to see this side by side against a Sola 1kg, Proaster 1kg and a Probat sample roaster and see how it stacks up
    I guess to keep it fair, the comparison would involve 3 to 5 Aillios v any of the above- given we're talking $14.5k to $20+k domestic/sample v full commercial?

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    I guess to keep it fair, the comparison would involve 3 to 5 Aillios v any of the above- given we're talking $14.5k to $20+k domestic/sample v full commercial?
    True...OK then up against a HotTop and (maybe) a Gene?

  15. #115
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    Alrighty,

    I ran 5 or 6 batches yesterday (sans software- back to first principles ) and I feel I have a pretty good handle on it...

    I'll get some warts and all thoughts together and update this thread once I catch up on the backlog of a day on a plane...

    Thanks as always to the ECA crew- Charles, Sal, Nadine and staff for their incredible service, support and hospitality. It's unique in this industry and hugely appreciated.
    Last edited by TC; 21st April 2016 at 10:47 AM.
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  16. #116
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    Ohhhhh very exciting! Very keen for a rundown. Been following this for so long, nice to see some action.

  17. #117
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    Ok, having had a play, some thoughts. This will be rough and ready, but will hopefully provide some more info for those looking for it....


    • The first surprise with the roaster was that the software which was operational at MICE when Jacob and Jonas were in Melbourne appears not to be in the field yet. Also the software will initially be PC only. No Mac yet . I understand that there are some tweaks being written into the software. So all roasting was by the "seat of my pants" so to speak. This meant biro, paper, timing and all the usual stuff that many of us do.
    • The roaster had been used by another roaster on Tuesday and he ran a variety of loads from 200g to a full kilo and all within 15 minutes- so no problem roasting to full load. I decided to run a number of 500g batches to see how close I could get to the profile I use when I roast our Shed Shandy blend which goes to just prior to second crack. Ultimately this led to roast times between 14.5 min (quicker than my usual) and close to 18 min (longer) with first crack varying from about 10 min to closer to 13 min (I won't disclose what I usually use ). All roasts looked terrific- even, no tipping nor divots and looked like "commercial quality". Whilst the finishing colour was pretty much identical, all as expected were different- with the longer roasts chewing slightly baked. So, different profiles, same finishing colour, different results and no doubt drinking. ECA will play with them to see how they come up.
    • Yet to try the results as espresso, but a chew of the results leads me to believe that the sweet spot with the blend I was using was no more than 15 min roast duration inc 4-5 min development time.
    • 1st Crack (with the supplied blend Brazil/Indo/Ethiopian of unknown proportion and quality) was tricky to pick in the gentler roasts but was discernable on the final more aggressive let's redline this mother to see what it can do roast. 2nd crack? Forget it- at least with my hearing. I have no problem hearing it with my Has Garanti, Gene Cafe nor Behmor. The presence of a of a tryer would make it a whole heap easier.
    • Compared to CS software, first crack and second crack appear to be offset by approx. 10 deg. I felt that an indicated 185/205 deg C bean temp was pretty much right.
    • Variable fan and drum speed as well as temperature- but all on a 1-9 scale. I hadn't really thought about this, but I'd assumed these would be true variable- so that was a surprise.
    • Drum speed >5 looked super quick (I settled on 5) and fan speed >5 was capable of stalling a roast and certainly needed to be used with care. The behaviour and influence of fan speed when compared to my commercial was way more aggressive- so much so that in my last couple of roasts, I experimented and successfully managed RoR primarily with fan speed and then later with temp.
    • Irritation- every new roast defaulted to a drum speed of 9- super quick
    • Irritation- RoR fluctuates significantly (heating/not heating?) and an algorithm to smooth would aid panic free roasting. I eventually learned only to touch settings after thinking I should have at least a few times when viewing RoR.
    • Pro- interface really good and easy to switch between drum temp and RoR and Drum speed/Fan speed which are separately displayed

    So- do I like it?

    Yes I do. It's not the same as a commercial roaster but I feel that it will be a nifty little small batch roaster and will be able to provide useful data to assist with commercial espresso profile development. It's definitely a next level roaster for the serious home hobby roaster. I have no doubt it will find its way into commercial operations as well small cafes which want to experiment with small batch stuff and learn the art/science.

    Would I buy one?

    No question. If I didn't have the commercial and had continued home roasting, I am sure that I'd be in the queue as I was already in the "need 2 roasters" weekly volume. Compared to all other 1kg options, it's value for money.

    Jonas and Jacob have produced a terrific product which they feel is comprehensively overengineered and should be hugely reliable and long lived when looked after/cleaned etc.

    They reckon we should have our demo roaster in 2-3 weeks. I am also thrilled that the Aillio will be imported by ECA. It guarantees 110% support and parts so that we can ensure that purchasers have the best possible ownership experience.

    Like all other roasters, it has its quirks and like all other roasters, the learning curve begins again. That's also part of the fun!

    A very early draft of the operation manual is in the wild, so I guess it's ok to link to it, for those who are yet to see it.

    Chris

    thumb_IMG_4425_1024.jpgthumb_IMG_4426_1024.jpgthumb_IMG_4424_1024.jpgthumb_IMG_4417_1024.jpgthumb_IMG_4418_1024.jpg
    Last edited by TC; 21st April 2016 at 05:20 PM. Reason: more info
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  18. #118
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    Oh to have a spare $4000! *sadface*
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  19. #119
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    So the roaster only has a drum temp and a bean temp probe (Manual, Pg 18) - and the manual says that no modifications can be done (Pg 1). Does this mean than getting an Environment Temp* or exhaust reading is out of the question? OR is this something that might be possible within warranty by the supplier, given a sampler option is coming for retrofitting?

    Great to see they at least intend to get Mac software up and running (pg. 18), and it's also cool that they have a requirement of collecting roasting data in order to improve their software. I wonder what the extent of that data collection is..
    Last edited by readeral; 21st April 2016 at 05:49 PM. Reason: *removing acronyms

  20. #120
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    I may be totally wrong, but I thought that system heating was accomplished by drum induction. If so I think that drum temp is more useful than exhaust temp as heating will be largely conductive rather than convective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantfm View Post
    I may be totally wrong, but I thought that system heating was accomplished by drum induction. If so I think that drum temp is more useful than exhaust temp as heating will be largely conductive rather than convective.
    You're right, the drum is induction. I guess, Chris was saying that with the fan speed set too high it was possible to stall quite easily, so airflow does play enough of a part that it might warrant an Environment Temp* reading. With Rate Of Rise* fluctuations being offputting, it could be that having an Environment Temp* _might_ help to see changes earlier than the Bean Temp* probe. (Or it could just add to the difficulty...)

    I dunno. I'm a super amateur roaster, so very happy to heed your thoughts there kwantfm!
    Last edited by readeral; 21st April 2016 at 05:49 PM. Reason: *removing acronyms

  22. #122
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    Also, please correct me if I'm wrong (isn't the first, 10,000th, and won't be the last) but isn't the idea that you set your drum speed so that the beans are always in motion, aiming to have your beans airborne for a significant amount* of each cycle? So most of the conduction would be bean-to-bean not drum-to-bean? And, if beans are airborne, and there is sufficient airflow, there would still be fairly substantial amount of convection as well?

    *I don't know what the values would be there, but I'm assuming it'd depend on drum diameter

  23. #123
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    I was careful to suggest "more useful". It's entirely likely that having both drum and exhaust temperatures would be helpful and I can't imagine that it would be a very expensive addition.
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  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantfm View Post
    I was careful to suggest "more useful". It's entirely likely that having both drum and exhaust temperatures would be helpful and I can't imagine that it would be a very expensive addition.
    Sorry, late in the day so I'm missing the nuances. Thanks for clarifying

  25. #125
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    Mate, nuance is there for the missing. My apologies for not being clearer!

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Ok, having had a play, some thoughts. This will be rough and ready, but will hopefully provide some more info for those looking for it....


    • The first surprise with the roaster was that the software which was operational at MICE when Jacob and Jonas were in Melbourne appears not to be in the field yet. Also the software will initially be PC only. No Mac yet . I understand that there are some tweaks being written into the software. So all roasting was by the "seat of my pants" so to speak. This meant biro, paper, timing and all the usual stuff that many of us do.
    • The roaster had been used by another roaster on Tuesday and he ran a variety of loads from 200g to a full kilo and all within 15 minutes- so no problem roasting to full load. I decided to run a number of 500g batches to see how close I could get to the profile I use when I roast our Shed Shandy blend which goes to just prior to second crack. Ultimately this led to roast times between 14.5 min (quicker than my usual) and close to 18 min (longer) with first crack varying from about 10 min to closer to 13 min (I won't disclose what I usually use ). All roasts looked terrific- even, no tipping nor divots and looked like "commercial quality". Whilst the finishing colour was pretty much identical, all as expected were different- with the longer roasts chewing slightly baked. So, different profiles, same finishing colour, different results and no doubt drinking. ECA will play with them to see how they come up.
    • Yet to try the results as espresso, but a chew of the results leads me to believe that the sweet spot with the blend I was using was no more than 15 min roast duration inc 4-5 min development time.
    • 1st Crack (with the supplied blend Brazil/Indo/Ethiopian of unknown proportion and quality) was tricky to pick in the gentler roasts but was discernable on the final more aggressive let's redline this mother to see what it can do roast. 2nd crack? Forget it- at least with my hearing. I have no problem hearing it with my Has Garanti, Gene Cafe nor Behmor. The presence of a of a tryer would make it a whole heap easier.
    • Compared to CS software, first crack and second crack appear to be offset by approx. 10 deg. I felt that an indicated 185/205 deg C bean temp was pretty much right.
    • Variable fan and drum speed as well as temperature- but all on a 1-9 scale. I hadn't really thought about this, but I'd assumed these would be true variable- so that was a surprise.
    • Drum speed >5 looked super quick (I settled on 5) and fan speed >5 was capable of stalling a roast and certainly needed to be used with care. The behaviour and influence of fan speed when compared to my commercial was way more aggressive- so much so that in my last couple of roasts, I experimented and successfully managed RoR primarily with fan speed and then later with temp.
    • Irritation- every new roast defaulted to a drum speed of 9- super quick
    • Irritation- RoR fluctuates significantly (heating/not heating?) and an algorithm to smooth would aid panic free roasting. I eventually learned only to touch settings after thinking I should have at least a few times when viewing RoR.
    • Pro- interface really good and easy to switch between drum temp and RoR and Drum speed/Fan speed which are separately displayed

    So- do I like it?

    Yes I do. It's not the same as a commercial roaster but I feel that it will be a nifty little small batch roaster and will be able to provide useful data to assist with commercial espresso profile development. It's definitely a next level roaster for the serious home hobby roaster. I have no doubt it will find its way into commercial operations as well small cafes which want to experiment with small batch stuff and learn the art/science.

    Would I buy one?

    No question. If I didn't have the commercial and had continued home roasting, I am sure that I'd be in the queue as I was already in the "need 2 roasters" weekly volume. Compared to all other 1kg options, it's value for money.

    Jonas and Jacob have produced a terrific product which they feel is comprehensively overengineered and should be hugely reliable and long lived when looked after/cleaned etc.

    They reckon we should have our demo roaster in 2-3 weeks. I am also thrilled that the Aillio will be imported by ECA. It guarantees 110% support and parts so that we can ensure that purchasers have the best possible ownership experience.

    Like all other roasters, it has its quirks and like all other roasters, the learning curve begins again. That's also part of the fun!

    A very early draft of the operation manual is in the wild, so I guess it's ok to link to it, for those who are yet to see it.

    Chris

    thumb_IMG_4425_1024.jpgthumb_IMG_4426_1024.jpgthumb_IMG_4424_1024.jpgthumb_IMG_4417_1024.jpgthumb_IMG_4418_1024.jpg
    The user interface looks really boss. I like it!

  27. #127
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    Eagerly awaitng for the unit to arrive, my current roaster is becoming more temperamental

  28. #128
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    [QUOTE=Talk_Coffee;577281]Ok, having had a play, some thoughts. This will be rough and ready, but will hopefully provide some more info for those looking for it....

    [*]Irritation- RoR fluctuates significantly (heating/not heating?) and an algorithm to smooth would aid panic free roasting. I eventually learned only to touch settings after thinking I should have at least a few times when viewing RoR.

    Thanks for the thoughts on what is a very much anticipated piece of gear.

    Given RoR is fluctuating as you say I am guessing there is no PID on bean temperature then?

  29. #129
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    Hi This is Jacob from Aillio

    Thanks for your information and kind words Chris. Just learned of it today.
    The software can now be downloaded, but the Mac version wont be done until later this year. You can use it on Mac, but you have to run a virtual machine (which is free).

    We are working on the irritating parts such as the drum speed defaulting to 9. Now with the latest firmware you can choose your default drum speed, default roast power, default preheat and a few other things. Just press the F1 button to enter the menu while the R1 is in the Off mode.

    The ROR fluctuations are being studied, and from what I can understand, should be averaged more than we do now. I talked to Scott Rao about it who recommends a 15 second moving average, so we might try this in the next firmware update. Perhaps it could be a user setting so you can change the amount of averages...

    The fan settings being maybe too aggressive is interesting. We can make it totally variable if this is needed, but right now settings 1-6 are linear with a small interval in RPM, and then settings 7, 8, 9 are mostly for cooling down the roaster. If we find out we need more steps then we can change this.

    Given RoR is fluctuating as you say I am guessing there is no PID on bean temperature then?
    No. The regulation is done on power, not on temperature.

    Cheers,
    Jacob
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  30. #130
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    Hi again.

    I'm happy to report that we have now released a new firmware with more fan steps. Steps 0-9 now all have very small adjustments, optimized for roasting. Going beyond 9 will now show A, B and C, which are all more powerful fan settings designed for cooling.
    Other bug fixes have also been applied. The most resent software package (Roast Time) can now update the R1's firmware directly, so this is all you need.

    Happy roasting,

    Jacob
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  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by JacobAillio View Post
    Hi again.

    I'm happy to report that we have now released a new firmware with more fan steps. Steps 0-9 now all have very small adjustments, optimized for roasting. Going beyond 9 will now show A, B and C, which are all more powerful fan settings designed for cooling.
    Other bug fixes have also been applied. The most resent software package (Roast Time) can now update the R1's firmware directly, so this is all you need.

    Happy roasting,

    Jacob
    Brilliant news Jacob.

    We're very much looking forward to demonstrating ours to our many Melbourne clients who are eagerly waiting for their new roasters.

    Cheers

    Chris
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  32. #132
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    Any updates on the R1? Has anyone had one delivered yet?

  33. #133
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    Yes, from Aillio social networking:

    "Weve got an update for our pre-order customers. We will be contacting you all next week to confirm your shipping address AND (drumroll!) to give you an estimated shipping date.
    "

  34. #134
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    Here in Denmark the first pre-order bullets are delivered and roasting away. They look great by the way!
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    Quote Originally Posted by proftournesol View Post
    Any updates on the R1? Has anyone had one delivered yet?
    I have (You can read my initial thoughts here if you're interested: Early roasting experience )

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexpid View Post
    Here in Denmark the first pre-order bullets are delivered and roasting away. They look great by the way!
    I don't think anybody other than me has recieved one yet, but I might be wrong.. Do you have info I don't?
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  36. #136
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    We have confirmation that ours is waiting for a plane...ETA 1 week...
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  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by JensMuff View Post
    I have (You can read my initial thoughts here if you're interested: Early roasting experience )



    I don't think anybody other than me has recieved one yet, but I might be wrong.. Do you have info I don't?
    My mistake... The first bullet IS roasting happily...

  38. #138
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    One preorder from our first batch of 20 has become available
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    taken ..thanks
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  40. #140
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    We have increased our order with ECA and have opened a couple more preorders. We hope to keep a few from the first Australian stocks as shelf stock.
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  41. #141
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    Geez, does look good.............. very tempting ???????!!!!!
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  42. #142
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    Finally some exciting news! We have just received confirmation that ours is now in transit.
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  43. #143
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    This roaster could be a game changer...

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwantfm View Post
    This roaster could be a game changer...
    Having used it, I'm pretty confident that it is a game changer.
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  45. #145
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    Still hoping that I randomly come across $4k cash.
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  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by readeral View Post
    Still hoping that I randomly come across $4k cash.
    So many bad permutations

  47. #147
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    Getting closer. It's in the country!

    TNT were paid on Friday for freight/import and I have ordered a welder filter setup to make for a low smoke, portable setup...

    Once everything arrives later this week (I think!), the final piece of the jigsaw will be the right size trolley/bench on castors and it will then be a plug in and roast anywhere solution...

    Looking forward to more play time :-)

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    It's in the country!
    Uh oh, now you're at the mercy of Aussie freight handlers
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  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talk_Coffee View Post
    Getting closer. It's in the country!
    ...I have ordered a welder filter setup to make for a low smoke, portable setup...
    Is this a smaller, homemade interpretation of an Avirnaki-type smoke eliminator Chris?

  50. #150
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    Behmor Coffee Roaster
    Hi Bruce,

    When I visited at MICE, ECA used a Hako FA-430 and duct kit for smoke management and it certainly handled the task well and kept the OHS peeps happy..

    I ordered one + a duct kit for about $1.8k and feel it will be adequate for the role without going to the expense of an Avirnaki.

    It's compact and quiet and will happily sit on the shelf of the trolley I have in mind..

    Cheers

    Chris

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