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Thread: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

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    Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hello.

    I have:
    1). Breville BES400 Ikon (purchased 2nd hand).
    2). Sunbeam EM0480 (brand new last sunday).
    3). Purchased a spare double-basket for a higher-end Breville (800 series?) and have cut the base out - as described in this forum.
    4). Fresh beans from local roaster (yesterday).
    5). Tamper purchased from same local roaster (didnt realise how heavy these are).
    6). A desire for an acceptable espresso shot (mmmm coffeeeee)...

    Problem:
    My soggy waterlogged pucks. As I remove the group handle I hear steam and the the basket is waterlogged and there is a clump of grinds on the showerhead also. Shots seem to go the watery stage quickly also.

    I have been extracting for about 20 secs. Because any longer and watery stuff comes out. I have tried grinding with very low settings too - tastes better but waterlogged.

    Not alot of crema to be found. I have tried various grind settings. It seems that shots pull reasonably fast, under 15 secs, yet the basket is waterlogged.

    Any users with a similar setup that could please give me some debugging tips? Thanks in advance.

    regards,
    grol.

  2. #2
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Hi grol,

    Welcome to CoffeeSnobs!

    The Ikon does not have a pressure relief system, so if you pull the group handle off within a minute or so the water and grounds will squirt, and the puck will be wet and soggy. I generally leave the handle on until Ive steamed the milk, and cleaned up everything else, and sometimes still get grounds stuck to the shower screen.

    The shower screen is also quite high and Ive found that the best dose (after tamping) is only a couple of mm below the rim of the basket.

    If you are getting shots finished in 15 seconds then the grind needs to be finer or the tamp harder. The time starts from button push and includes the 4 or 5 second pre-extraction phase.

    I dont have any experience with the 480 but someone who does will be along soon.

    Keep varying one thing at a time--the Ikon will make pretty good coffee.

    Greg

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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Hi Greg,

    Thanks for the reply. I should perhaps wait until milk done. :-)

    I tried a shot using the finest setting of the EM0480 just now. I filled the basket, tamped, filled some more, tamped and it was still a few mm below the top. The shot looked alot better. The top of the puck was water logged, but the bottom half was quite dry.

    I am not sure how to dose a basket properly. I dont have scales fine enough to measure. I have seen people just level off and tamp, which in my case leaves quite a bit of room in the basket.

    I get the feeling that the grind isnt fine enough? I downloaded a .pdf from this site about calibrating the grinder, but dont want to risk the warranty especially when it might be already fine enough - I dont know how to tell.



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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Quote Originally Posted by 65706D6E71616A6B67020 link=1258752491/2#2 date=1258770960
    Hi Greg,

    Thanks for the reply. I should perhaps wait until milk done. :-)

    I tried a shot using the finest setting of the EM0480 just now. I filled the basket, tamped, filled some more, tamped and it was still a few mm below the top. The shot looked alot better. The top of the puck was water logged, but the bottom half was quite dry.

    I am not sure how to dose a basket properly. I dont have scales fine enough to measure. I have seen people just level off and tamp, which in my case leaves quite a bit of room in the basket.

    I get the feeling that the grind isnt fine enough? I downloaded a .pdf from this site about calibrating the grinder, but dont want to risk the warranty especially when it might be already fine enough - I dont know how to tell.

    1: Where are you located - Update ya profile..

    2: Is it like salt, fine black pepper, or flour ?

    3: If the Grinder is a bit course... SB will suggest an extra washer which they often send out... Get two..

    4: Follow the instructions and after fitting the washer.. Start course and work your way down... You do not want the Burrs to touch - Not EVER...

    Note:

    Fresh beans from local roaster (yesterday). Need more info as to what you mean Local Roaster and by Fresh ?

    They could be a bit fresh or if stale... Then grinding will be an issue..

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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Hello.

    Profile updated.

    Beans are from C4 Coffee in NZ.....
    *** Non Site Sponsor Link Removed ***

    Grinds are somewhat finer than table salt, and nowhere near close to flour.

    Thanks. :-)

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    A_M
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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2F3A27243B2B20212D480 link=1258752491/4#4 date=1258781347
    Hello.

    Profile updated.

    Beans are from Beans are from C4 Coffee in NZ.....
    *** Non Site Sponsor Link Removed ***

    Grinds are somewhat finer than table salt, and nowhere near close to flour.

    Thanks. :-)
    Ok.. Hard to make teh call... But at finer than table salt ( Assuming Good quality beans) then you should be around 12 on an EM0480 or EM0450 +/- *3 or 4 clicks..

    If ya down at 2 or or there about... *I would suggest Ya need a washer *:-?

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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    I am pretty sure that was on minimum. If I put a washer in, will setting it to minimum kill the burrs?

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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Quote Originally Posted by 56435E5D4252595854310 link=1258752491/6#6 date=1258792873
    I am pretty sure that was on minimum. If I put a washer in, will setting it to minimum kill the burrs?
    Should not but thats all any one can do, and all that teh SB service agent can do......

    The issue is to get any finer, you have to lift the bottom burr. In the ideal world, that would mean that a setting of 2 would now be teh same as 10 or 12..

    That is why you start course... Grind and then check the out put... Go a little finer and keep going until you get what you want..

    If ya go to far... LITTLE steps... You will hear metal on metal and then ya STOP real quick ;)

    I had 3 EM0480... One was OK from word go, one needed 2 washers... The third.. I made up a washer (A bit thick) and at 20 it was great for espresso... I had to set it about 3 clicks above 25 for plunger..

    Zero was about 10 ;D


    You can actually turn the burs / motor by hand and as this is very slow ( NO POWER CORD PLUGGED IN) you can easly find out where the setting is that the burrs touch ;) Then ya never go there... And should never even get to 5 or 8 clicks up from there.

    It is simple and lots posted on CS as to how to make ya own spacer etc etc...

    NOTE: Some people have added washers and or not put the unit back together correctly... Wound the setting to 12 and then hit teh start button.. WRONG !!!! Always test the waters depth before diving in head first!

    Just like wood work... Measure twice and cut once ;)

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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Thank you very much for that. I havent done anything about the burrs yet, but packing as much coffee into the basket as practical, tamping hard, and leaving it while I heat the milk, the resulting puck is dry. I still get a bit of coffee on the showerhead though, but not as much.

    I think I should phone Sunbeam before ripping into it. If I want to try make turkish coffee, it will need some adjustment. Unless of course it needs to bed in or something.

    Thanks guys. :-)

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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Can anyone please tell me how many grams a Breville double basket holds. I dont have scales accurate enough to weigh my coffee.

    I read that the following on http://www.home-barista.com/naked-extraction.html:

    "My own brief definition of an espresso is an extraction using approximately fourteen grams of coffee to produce a sixty milliliter double in 22 to 32 seconds (timing from the moment the pump starts"

    So if I use the above as a guide, and if my holder only holds say 10g, does that mean I should produce 10/14 x 60mls = 42ml shots? Thanks in advance.

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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    no you still just really want 30ml shots, dont read to much into 30ml in 30 secs 10 14 - 20g of coffee etc etc.

    if your pulling good shots in 20 secs work on your grind / tamp slightly.

    sometimes finer grind and less tamp works best and sometimes the other way works better, beans effect it.

    just work on YOUR shot and get something that you enjoy.......

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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Thanks for that. Sorry, I meant I was using the double-basket - not the single - and it goes into one cup. That means a 50-60ml double shot, right?

    Anyone know approximately how many grams these are meant to hold. The Ikon merely comes with a scoop. Thanks.

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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    By the way Sunbeam NZ sent me out some spacers, so I put both in and am currently grinding around 9-10 on my recently purchased (new) EM0480.

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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Hi again. An update:

    I am currently making a good tasting shot with the Ikon - after playing around with the grind and dosing. The shot looks right to me as it pours, about 20 - 30 secs, and has brown crema. *Good flavour. I am finding however, that when I release the handle (even after waiting a while), I need to slowly release it else coffee grinds spray out and it makes a mess. If I release it slowly, stream and liquid squirt out over the basket still. Any pointers please? Should I grind even finer, but put less coffee in?

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    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    As far as I can tell the spray is not a bug, its a feature. (with apologies to software authors everywhere :P)

    The only way to disable it is to wait long enough for the pressure to seep through the puck--usually a couple of minutes. When I use the Ikon at work I remove the handle as the last of the clean-up.

    Greg

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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Thanks. That works when making a single coffee. I guess the problem is when making multiple coffees in a row for a bunch of people. :)

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    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3124393A25353E3F33560 link=1258752491/15#15 date=1260004893
    Thanks. That works when making a single coffee. I guess the problem is when making multiple coffees in a row for a bunch of people. *:)
    Now youre talking an upgrade to Hx. ;D

    Greg

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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Ive got an Ikon, and also remove the handle last thing when cleaning down, luckily im usually only making one as the Mrs doesnt drink much coffee, even more so at them moment as shes pregnant so off any caffeine.

    But youre right i think this is the only way round it which is a bit of a pain if you want to make multiple coffees, one way round it is to make one at at time, by the time youve done your milk you will be able to remove it..

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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Thanks guys. Im not sure what an "Hx" is. I have found that if I turn the handle a little to let a small amount of pressure off, then do the milk, the handle can be carefully removed without too much mess. :)

  20. #20
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2F3A27243B2B20212D480 link=1258752491/18#18 date=1260255057
    Thanks guys. Im not sure what an "Hx" is.

    Hx=Heat Exchanger, or a mid to high level machine that has a pressure relief valve. Some single boiler, dual purpose machines have this as well. The base price would be in the area of $1000 and then "up, up, and away!"

    Greg

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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Thanks for that. So this is par for the course with any Breville or Sunbeam home unit?

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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    If you are making multiple coffees for "a bunch of people" the Ikon is not really the tool for the job (unless you plan on spending most of the night at the machine), it is great for one or two coffees at a time, but beyond that, and you are pushing the boundaries.

    Have you tried any of the other Chch suppliers?

    With your Ikon, convert your group handle to bottomless (push out the eject button). This will leave a big gaping hole in the bottom of it, and mean you can only do 1 coffee at a time, but there is a marked improvement in the taste of the shots when this is done (even cleaningg the button thoroughly still taints the espresso shot).

    The "coffee sneeze" is common amongst any units without a release valve (one way valve?), if you are releiving the pressure a bit, then steaming, then removing the handle without too much fuss, sounds like its as good as you will get. I get the coffee sneeze sometimes, but not others (usually if I have over extracted the coffee and its poured a little slow).

    Are you still using the "tamp" that is on the end of the scoop that came with the Ikon? Splash out and get a proper one if you are. There is a a sunbean "barista kit" sold at Harvey Norman that has a small tamp included, this is what I use at the shop and it is a near perfect fit. You wont get any sort of tamp pressure with the Breville scoop thingy

    Sen


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    Re: Help with Ikon BES400 and EM0480 please?

    Hi Senator.

    Thanks for that info. I only make one coffee at a time using the double-basket, 35-40ml shots over about 25 seconds into a 150ml cup.

    I bought a tamper from C4 not too long ago. The plastic thingee wasnt really usable. Today I bought 500gms of Vivace Ultimate Espresso beans from their shop. Will see how they go.

    Thanks.
    grol




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