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Thread: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

  1. #1
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    Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    HI,
    I have the above gear and do not seem to be able to make a very nice coffee.

    I but fresh beans - grind what I need. gring on turkish fine setting

    I fill the handle and press with the Breville supplied tampa but the coffee poors quickly.

    I have heard it should be 30 mls in 30 seconds.

    My puck is always very wet.


    Just not sure what to do - can you guys break the steps down for me ?

    Look forward to good coffee

    Cheers

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    Quote Originally Posted by 26212D3225252B33400 link=1273959932/0#0 date=1273959932
    I but fresh beans - grind what I need. *gring on turkish fine setting
    What beans and from where ?

    * If supermarket, then 99.999% chance they are STALE
    * If from a popular coffee chain, then could still be stale

    What grinder ?

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    The BCG 450 is a breville burr grinder. The beans are from the local roaster and also from a specialty cafe

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    guv
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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    Have a search on this forum for unpressurized baskets. Make sure you change the search results for more that 1 weeks posts.

    I have the same machine and get pretty good results with it.

    Need to mod or replace the basket.

    Andrew

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    Did you replace your basket Andrew? What one did you buy?

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    The unpressurised double basket from a Fresca BES860 would be your best bet - the single basket is too small to bother with.

    Your grinder may well need modding as it is basically a repackaged Solis Maestro

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    Quote Originally Posted by 686F637C6B6B657D0E0 link=1273959932/2#2 date=1273960482
    The BCG 450 is a breville burr grinder. The beans are from the local roaster and also from a specialty cafe
    If ya using standard pressurised baskets.. (made to assist with stale beans)

    And with "Fresh beans and grind set to Turkish" and it comes through in seconds...

    Then guess what... An un pressurised is not going to help, but will make it worse.

    I say again... Beans and or Grinder..

    When were they roasted, when did you purchase / pick up and how have you been storing them.

    Rough guide of 3:

    1: Green beans best before 3 years
    2: Roasted beans best after 3 days but before 3 weeks
    3: Ground beans best before 3 minutes.

    So how good are ya beans ?



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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    olsmokey, my beans are freshly bought roasted in the last 2 weeks, just opened out of sealed foil pack.

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    Thanks Newbie! I had a laugh, i think your referring to AngerManagement, the "Olsmokey" is a marking in direct correlation to the amount of posts he has made, as for ya beans, it there a ROASTED ON date stamped on the foil bag?

    It may sound a little anal, but this is the root of 90% of "new to CSs" problems ;)

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    Quote Originally Posted by 3430160F0F0A15020D630 link=1273959932/8#8 date=1273983087
    Thanks Newbie! I had a laugh, i think your referring to AngerManagement, the "Olsmokey" is a marking in direct correlation to the amount of posts he has made, as for ya beans, it there a ROASTED ON date stamped on the foil bag?

    It may sound a little anal, but this is the root of 90% of "new to CSs" problems ;)
    Call me later to night Mr Wsully... Say 8pm

    Old Smokey... Yep about 12 day off those lovely / great / lung lollies ...Oh I want one now....

    As to teh highlighted bit... Only 90% ... And teh rest.
    Quote Originally Posted by 05020E1106060810630 link=1273959932/7#7 date=1273982861
    my beans are freshly bought roasted in the last 2 weeks, just opened out of sealed foil pack.
    Date stamped or not ????

    Lets put it this way... Flow rate is a direct relationship between the beans / grind size and Tamp.

    Now if this set up has been doing OK previously... We are assuming so; as you have stated nothing to the contrary.

    Then.... If ya getting gushers...

    1: Ya have water

    and

    2: Nothing restricting teh flow of water through teh beans..

    Thus - Coarse grind OR too light a Tamp OR STALE BEANS...

    If all was OK before... Then one of these has changed.. Usually people do not change their grind... Tamp teh same way; but beans get changes every week or so..

    Now it could be somthig else... But hard to know as we have little to go on other than - This is my machine and it gushes..

    95% plus it is the beans if what you advised and we have assumed is correct.

    Now I need two cigs, back to back.. Or just a plain Camel :o

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    Sloppy puck sounds like course grind, providing your happy with your beans being fresh. Your tamping technique could be part of it but if you are to course then 100kg of pressure still wont help.

    The Breville grinder is not really up to the job in most cases for Espresso. As the others said there is some threads on how to improve them but best to start looking at a different grinder in the near future. Find a family member that drinks Plunger or Stovetop and do them a favour by giving them your old one. If you can go to a finer setting then do it on the grinder and see if it improves labels on grinders dont work reliably as a method of setting it.

    The only other possible is that your pressurised basket is Stuffed with accumulated coffee fines and sludge. Important you get an unpressurised one !!!!! If you have any coffee machine cleaner like Cafetto then a good soak of the basket in some of this might help but the best thing to do is throw it in the bottom draw and get a proper one. :)

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    I guess I have not really been impressed from day 1 with my attempts of making a brew. This is why I started buying fresh beans (250g packs) direct from roasters rather than from cafes or supermarkets

    The beans only have an expiry date into October on the whole beans pack but I did purchase them from a well known roaster outlet direct.

    The coffee to me is woody to bitter.

    It appears to have a crema but I just do not think this is taste is alll .

    Is the whole pressurised Vs unpressurised basket worth me investigating and if so where do I buy these from to fit my handle and machine?

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    got mine from Greg Pullmans website (got tamper as well and love it)

    link to the product you should look at - http://www.coffeetamper.com.au/shop/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=109

    The other option is to cut out the bottom floor of the basket if you have the right tools (Dremel or fine drill). * Be careful not to go too far as there is only a few millimetres between the two layers, although if you damage it there are probably hundreds of these baskets sitting in drawers across the country. Photo of my modified basket included.

    I did both of these and get the better result from modifying the basket that came with the machine as 1) it fits well (the krups basket is ok but not as snug) and 2) the holes in the krups a pretty large so you will get a few more grinds in the cup.

    Other tip that I think is well worth it - get some green beans and a corn popper or heatgun/breadmaker and roast your own. * Its not that difficult to get reasonable results and the satisfaction that you actually roasted that coffee is huge. *Jump in and give it a go - I did exactly this in Feb this year and have just clocked over my 48th roast and it just gets better each week.

    Problem I have now is upgraditis - mazzer mini on bench now and seriously contemplating the new Rocket Evoluzione (or however you spell it)

    Cheers and good luck.
    Andrew



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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    That bitter you are getting is most likely caused by not having everything hot, just because the machine says its ready it is not, 20-25 minutes should do it with the group handle attached too. So dont blame the beans just yet.;)

    That stuff that looks like Crema is actually not proper Crema, the dual floor pressurised baskets you have make FAKE crema. Also in a lot of cases the actual extraction pressure is low and this will cause less than desirable flavours from good beans.

    Where in Oz are you someone might be able to point you in the right direction to get the unpressurised basket.

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    Quote Originally Posted by 787F736C7B7B756D1E0 link=1273959932/11#11 date=1273993801
    The beans only have an expiry date into October on the whole beans pack but I did purchase them from a well known roaster outlet direct.
    Arrr getting some where..

    PS. Single skin baskets are great... But lets get him working first..

    As I said teh rules of 3 as to good beans... If they have 6 months on them still...

    WHEN WERE THEY ROASTED ?

    Answer: ________


    Now if the bags are already marked as an expiry date into October on the whole beans pack....

    There is half ya problem if not more... STALE BEANS is strill MY guess.

    Ignoring Temperature etc if ya system is pulling a double basket and pours way too quick...

    1: Grind
    2: Beans
    3: Tamp

    Again you have not advised how it was working previously..

    If it ever was..

    Answer: ________


    Like getting blood from a stone... Go and visit a Sponsor or another CS person.. It is becoming obvious that text is not the way... You need hands on exposure.

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    guv
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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    The short version of what AMs saying here is get freshly roasted beans.
    Up to 10 days old is good. October is not good.

    Make sure there is a roast date on the beans you buy and they are only a few days post roast when you pick them up.

    Then its time for the next step ;) the unpressurised baskets.

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    Hey guess what, we have almost the same setup! I think the 800ES is the same as the BES820, minus the hot water arm and pressure gauge. I notice youve been silent recently, but lets hope this helps anyway!

    Im not an expert (still a Newbie, really) so Ill be corrected if Im wrong, but let me share my experiences with you:

    Wet Puck. Its always going to be wet, no matter what you do with the original basket. Its a result of the pressurized basket (advance dual wall crema system) holding water. Leave it until youve finished steaming, then it will be dryer.

    Grinder. Use the finest setting (Turkish). Its nowhere near turkish, but youll get the best results with it.

    Temp. As someone said, its not ready as soon as the light stops flashing (which only takes a couple of minutes). I leave mine for at least 10 - 20 minutes. Then I run a short pour with no grinds (4-5 secs) to heat up the basket, etc. Then wait until you hear the little steam overflow and do it again. On the last run, grind your beans. Then dry the basket, and dose, tamp, lock it in, and extract!

    You wont get great results from this setup, but rest assured with good beans and good technique you can make better coffee than Glorias and the rest.

    Where to from here? The cheapest "upgrade" for you is three things:
    • Get a krups unpressurized basket. I got mine from Pullman as mentioned earlier. Get them to measure it if youre thinking about a Pullman tamper as well.
    • With the new basket, your grinder just wont cut it! Youll need to do the mod, but be careful! If you break it you keep the pieces!
    • Get a better tamper. The plastic one has an angled handle so its hard to get a flat top, and its hard to get the right pressure.
    With my modded grinder and improving technique, I find that to get close to the nice dark looking pour, I almost have to block up the machine, and send the pressure guage into the red! I think it cant quite handle it, which is why Im slowly upgrading.

    I hope that answers some questions!

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    Great post Iain!!!!! 8-)

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    Quote Originally Posted by 4B4F697070756A7D721C0 link=1273959932/17#17 date=1274964339
    Great post Iain!!!!! 8-)
    Ya... The wind direction up there must have changed ;D ;D ;D

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    Quote Originally Posted by 5B747D7F68577B747B7D7F777F746E1A0 link=1273959932/18#18 date=1274967199
    Quote Originally Posted by 4B4F697070756A7D721C0 link=1273959932/17#17 date=1274964339
    Great post Iain!!!!! 8-)
    Ya... The wind direction up there must have changed *;D ;D ;D
    What are you guys saying, that all my posts arent great?! ;)

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    As people have suggested these cheapo brevilles need modification to get half decent shots.

    Both the baskets in the machine and that grinder they use.

    After you do that you have the potential to get something good out of the equipment every now and then, with more average/good shots and very few excellent ones. But, that is just the limitation of the gear.

    I have a modified Ikon and modded grinder as a temporary hack.

    As an aside I found the dremel cut orginal double baskets better than the Krups drop in. Although I would reccomend taking out a fair whack more material than that pic above to expose more of the basket.

    Anyone gone stupid and made thier brevilles portafilter naked? ;D

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    Quote Originally Posted by 4E594A0E0D0C3C0 link=1273959932/20#20 date=1275398109
    Anyone gone stupid and made thier brevilles portafilter naked? *;D
    I was thinking about it, but the wife wants the original gear, including the dual wall basket (it is easier) so Im resisting!

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    Re: Breville 800ES +BCG 450- Help on making good espresso

    I have the bes820, and it has the same internals as the 800es, as well as the breville burr grinder. Despite what people might say, you can make a good coffee from this setup provided you do what the others have said. I just want to emphasise that you need to do the grinder mod!

    Grinder Mod: This is the most important!!! The 450 grinder isnt capable of grinding fine enough for these machines. Even with dual wall you will notice a massive difference. Without it my machine constantly under extracted and tasted weak. With it, and a fresh bag of beans, I make coffees that leave cafes in the dust.

    And on another note
    A friend had done the making it naked thing. The first attempt was a failure with a disc grinder, and the second was with a special tool designed for the purpose (apparently). I just bought the unpressurised baskets from breville.



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