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Thread: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

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    Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Hi Everyone.
    I read around a bit and decided that I was sure I could be getting better coffee out of my Breville Cafe Roma.

    So I cut the bottom off the porta-filter.

    Then I tried to drill a hole in the bottom floor of the pressurised basket. Woops, went right through.... :o Luckily I was using the single where I normally do a double.

    So I thought right, ill get onto Breville and ask them where I could purchase an unpressurised basket - that might solve my issue:
    Dear Hatchy,
    Thank you for your email. Unfortunately we do not have a part other than the original Pressurised filters. I would suggest to check with the
    retail store for an after market product that will meet your needs.
    Regards
    Customer Service Consultant


    Well now im left with a machine that spurts coffee out in such a jet stream that I get what ive dubbed a black cappuccino. I cant complain too much because it tastes a lot better now.
    Ive always had my coffee black - now I can enjoy the spoils of a cap without the milk!

    Thought someone might have a laugh.... *:)

    Ill post a pic of my black cap when I next make a coffee.

    Hatchy



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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    A Krups basket might be the ticket. Check this thread:

    http://coffeesnobs.com.au/YaBB.pl?num=1192424067

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    I have some images to share now.
    This first set is with the basket that I drilled out a bit too far... not a bad coffee - not quite as strong as I like.










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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Those last 2 are of the double pressuried basket that I havent touched.
    And the result of that is.....
    :D


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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Thanks Acog - ive emailed Krups to see where I can get one from.

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by 527B6E7972631A0 link=1276046081/2#2 date=1276047233
    I have some images to share now.
    This first set is with the basket that I drilled out a bit too far... not a bad coffee - not quite as strong as I like.
    um, I think you drilled out the wrong side :-[

    As far as I know, you shouldnt see the single pin-hole any more because thats the side you want to get rid of :)

    What you should see is the many-holed side still in the basket. This is the "normal" cafe style basket.

    If you draw a shot through a basket with many holes, you should get coffee running out from all over, much like this.

    That sure is one way to get a lot of crema!

    Quote Originally Posted by 527B6E7972631A0 link=1276046081/4#4 date=1276048827
    Thanks Acog - ive emailed Krups to see where I can get one from.
    I purchased my krups double basket from Pullman. Get them to measure it in case you later order a tamper :)

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3E363E393335570 link=1276046081/5#5 date=1276059051
    As far as I know, you shouldnt see the single pin-hole any more because thats the side you want to get rid of
    It looks to me like hes just enlarged the pinhole.

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by 0935283339382F3A32395D0 link=1276046081/6#6 date=1276067328
    Quote Originally Posted by 3E363E393335570 link=1276046081/5#5 date=1276059051
    As far as I know, you shouldnt see the single pin-hole any more because thats the side you want to get rid of *
    It looks to me like hes just enlarged the pinhole.
    Yes thats right - on the single basket I failed big time and punched the drill right through - its effectively useless. On the double - no enlargement of the pinhole, havent touched that one, it gives an idea of what is going on inside the portafilter when you havent removed the bottom and are using a pressurised basket.

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Im confused as to what you think you were trying to do and why you think youve buggered that up.

    The whole idea should be to make the basket unpressurised.
    To do that you need to remove the bottom floor of the basket.
    When doing so you shouldnt go too close to the side walls otherwise the basket may fall apart if not enough metal remains to hold it together.

    I think you need to start by enlarging the hole.
    Youve relieved some pressure with what youve done but its not quite what you should have been trying to achieve.

    Depending on what tools you have, you might drill a few more holes in a circular pattern so you can cut some more of the bottom off then file the edges smooth.

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Well I buggered it up because I went right through both floors of the basket, not just the bottom floor - now I have a drill hole that goes right through.
    Beginners mistake.

    I was of course trying to make an unpressurised basket - thats what I set out to achieve - to drill only the bottom floor.

    I think I should probably just buy one instead of trying to mod the double Ive got that isnt stuffed.

    Lesson learnt.

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    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Check with Breville and if the double basket is the same as a double basket from an Ikon (it looks the same in your photo), then you are eligible for the "unpressurised double basket swap" that I run. This would work well with the bottomless group handle--provided you have a suitable grinder.

    It costs postage. Check the "pay it forward" thread.

    Greg

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Im a bit confused as to what you did exactly also...

    Ive got the same machine as you and should be recieving an unpressurised basket from pullman today. Once I have the basket and have made a few shots I will decide if I want to cut the bottom off the PF or not to make it naked

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    By the sounds of it, Hatchy started drilling the pin hole side (which is the right place to start) in order to make some holes and cut it out, but pushed the drill straight through to the inside.

    For the benefit of others, some people have separated the two walls (theyre only pressed together) before they drill out the unpressurised side.

    In any case, it looks like youll be wanting that krups basket :)

    Good luck.

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5A6F787A4A726F707C71791D0 link=1276046081/10#10 date=1276085366
    Check with Breville and if the double basket is the same as a double basket from an Ikon (it looks the same in your photo), then you are eligible for the "unpressurised double basket swap" that I run. This would work well with the bottomless group handle--provided you have a suitable grinder.

    It costs postage. Check the "pay it forward" thread.

    Greg
    Cheers greg - ill look into it somehow.

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    You can also use the Breville unpressurised ESP4/51 filter basket

    Works really well *:)

    EDIT - nice job on the portafilter - Im planning on doing the same - what method did you use to remove the bottom ?

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    I bought an extra group handle for my Ikon to try this - I would like to know how you got the bottom off as well

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by 25242C28202F2C410 link=1276046081/15#15 date=1276231471
    I bought an extra group handle for my Ikon to try this - I would like to know how you got the bottom off as well
    I got my unpressurised basket yesterday and am going to mod the group handle tomorrow to make it naked.

    I am going to do it with a hole saw, ive read its very easy this way as the metal is quite soft. The other method I have heard of is drilling lots of little holes in a circle and then using a file or dremel type tool to link them up - sounds like a real pita compared to a hole saw - I think a 50mm holesaw is the go...

    if your not familiar with a holesaw it goes on a drill just secure the group handle and drill it - slowly of course... Bunnings have them quite cheap apparently...!

    Looking forward to seeing just how bad my dosing, distributing and tamping is! I had a laugh

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    FYI, I got my Krupps filter and it doesnt fit correctly so dont order one of these... The problem is the top edge of the breville has a ridge but the krupps one is flat, makes it a little loose and grinds get thru into the shot...

    In the process of manually modifying my double pressurised filter with a dremel... If that doesnt work I believe the breville ESP4/51 basket is the go so will get onto tracking one down, they can be ordered direct from breville aparently..

  19. #19
    Senior Member GregWormald's Avatar
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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by 674548485149240 link=1276046081/17#17 date=1276334502
    In the process of manually modifying my double pressurised filter with a dremel... If that doesnt work I believe the breville ESP4/51 basket is the go so will get onto tracking one down, they can be ordered direct from breville aparently..
    I had a look at the 4/51 before I did the mods on the standard Ikon double basket, and wasnt impressed. The modified baskets work great.

    Greg

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    My dremel job went Ok, the first bit to get thru the top layer came within a whisker of going thru the second layer as well but didnt just... I expected there to be more of a gap between layers - I had read a couple of MM but mine would be lucky to be 1mm. Have poured 1 shot from it and it all went pretty well so dont think I damaged it beyond use!

    Now to find a cheap holesaw to strip my porta-filter... :)

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Hi Guys,
    For those wondering what I used to cut the bottom off - Hot Jave, Fattyboombatty.
    I used a hole saw - its rather easy. Its probably made even easier because I have a drill press, where I could secure the portafilter and then just apply constant slow pressure whilst it cut through the soft probably aluminium.
    Steps:
    Remove the screw from the bottom plate which will release the plastic insert.
    Grab a hole saw that is equal to the inside diameter of the portafilter. Then youll want to turn the portafilter over, secure it to either the bottom plate of your drill press or if youre using a hand held drill - somehow clamp it down. Apply very light pressure, allow the hole saw to do the cutting for you. Stop when youre through the bottom plate.
    Then youll need a file to clean up the edges, and you could even use some sandpaper (400-600grit) rolled up and then inserted into the drill to make yourself a smoother edge.
    If you do have a dremel or similar, still go down the holesaw path and then just use a fine grind tool to take the burrs from the edges.
    There you have it.

    FYI everyone. I got this further email from Breville.
    Thank you for your email we appreciate the feedback and it has been
    passed on to our Research & Development team.
    No the BES400 Ikon has the same filters as the BES200 Bar Vista unit, the Lower pressure ESP4 unit (ESP4 is 3.5 bar pressure vs Roma is 15 bar) are commonly used on a Roma series unit where the performance of a non-presurised filter is desired.
    The ESP4 Filters (part number/s ESP4/51, ESP4/78) are currently
    available for $ 9.78 & $9.15 Each plus $ 10.00 postage and handling and
    can be purchased over the phone with a Visa, MasterCard, Cheque or Money Order. (im not sure if im allowed to post the phone number, so PM me if you want it)

    A little look around and youll find that the ESP4/51 is the single and the 4/78 is the double.

    Ill attach also the Breville spreadsheet of service centres.


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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Be aware that the ESP4/51 though described as a single is in fact about the size of the CR double which is probably what you will want.

    I was also thinking of going the holesaw route too - it obviously does a very neat job - what size holesaw did you use ? - yours looks perfect !!

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Finally went naked today - no problems. I used a 2"/51mm holesaw - even the carbon steel is OK for the job given the soft aluminium.

    It can be tricky to find the 51mm in the cheap holesaw sets - so be prepared to hunt around a bit.

    I dont have a drill press which would be the ideal way to go for this job - if you do it freehand I suggest a cordless drill to minimise torque when the holesaw bites and better speed control.


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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    And where are the pics? ;)

    did you leave a small lip on the pf, or you do make it flush with the sidewall?

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    PF p0rn you want it - you got it *;D (please excuse the poor production values)

    the 51mm holesaw leaves the edge flush with the sidewall

    The filters for those that have been curious are L-R:

    Breville ESP4/51, Breville std double, Breville std single




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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Good Job - looks nice.
    Yes I would recommend people attempting this to use a drill press, thats the way I went, just gives stability - but you didnt seem to need it with yours, looks neat.

    Now how have you found the pour through the ESP4/51?
    I have found it a tough gig to get a decent pour such that the stream forms into the nice single middle stream (if you get what I mean). I know its a good one when it does pour properly, but sometimes its all over the place and having the naked PF can be a bit messy.
    I also dont have a suitable tamp for the esp4/51 - does your 52mm tamp fit it properly?


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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Shamefully - I havent had a chance to try the naked PF yet to really see how bad my tamping is - hopefully this weekend.

    A couple of comments about the ESP4/51 filter.

    1. I dont really like the sloped bottom section - if you dont press down absolutely straight you can slide down the wall so-to-speak and tilt or tear the puck.

    2. The wall of the basket has level marking indentations. This precludes the use of a fitted tamper and a best fit is all you can do.

    The Incasa tamper is not exactly precision engineering. It is obviously hand finished and is a bit irregular. I expect that there would be a bit of variation from one to another - so it would be worthwhile if possible to try them out with your individual basket. The tamper is frankly a bit loose - mine measures 51mm at the face (my basket measures @ 52.5mm across the top) - but it beats the crap out of the plastic one you get with the machine, and as I said it is difficult to fit the basket too closely due to the indentations. It also has a slightly convex face and not flat - though some people might prefer this.

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    I have made my naked PFs by simply using a hack-saw and file. I can post some pics of how naked you can go with this method, if anyones is interested.

    The Krups basket has no level marking indentations.
    I have had no issues with gettting a seal with the standard Group head Seal.

    Also, I believe that the Breville/Sunbeam/Krups all have the SAME seal - well at least its visually the same design and size on the EM3800, EM4800, ESP8, and XP4030 machines, for which I have replaced the seals on.

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Can anyone confirm that apart from the raised lip, the ESP4/51 filter is the exact same dimensions as the Krups basket?

    My Krups non-pressurised basket Inner Dimensions:
    -Diameter 51.3mm
    -Depth 22.5mm
    -Depth of Taper Start 12.5mm
    -Diameter of Floor approx 33mm
    -Width of hole pattern approx 27mm

    I can fit approx 13-15g in if I overdose.

    Does anyone have experience with the ESP4/78?
    eg) Dose amount? Extraction results?

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    ESP/51 inner dimensions:

    diam: 52.5 indent / 53 no ident
    depth: 21mm
    taper start: 15mm
    floor diam: 32mm
    hole pattern: 25mm

    avg dose (me) 14g

    I believe that the difference between the breville and the krups baskets boils down to:

    krups = smaller diameter so looser in PF
    krups = bigger holes so more muck in shot
    krups = unmarked walls so better fit for tamper

    but might be wrong ...

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    esp4/78 is a 4 cup basket.

    Ive been told that it doesnt fit the portafilter unless youve done the naked modification.

    I dont think my body would handle it if I pulled 4 shots for each cup... ;-)

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Thanks for the info on the dimensions of the ESP4/51.
    By my calcs the Krups basket is around 40cc, the ESP4/51 is 42cc

    Practically this means you can fit approx an extra 0.6g of coffee the ESP4/51 basket. (Assuming coffee puck density of 0.47g/mL - which is roughly about what my pucks seem to work out to).

    I think Im going to have to get one of these to try and compare to my Krups basket.

    By the way, I have the Incasa double-ended tamp - one end the diameter ranges from 51.0 to 51.4mm (yes it is that out of round) - the other end is 57.0 to 57.6mm.

    This fits PERFECTLY into the Krups basket with ID 51.3mm. It may even be a fraction tight in spots when you rotate for the polish.

    The other end of this, for anyone interested, fits the silly sized Lelit/Quaha/Nemox 57mm basket very nicely. But it is a little small for the Silvia 58mm baskets.

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    Re: Modifications to Cafe Roma - not all to plan.

    Ive done the naked portafilter mod to my Ikon as well now.

    I used a dremel to cut the pressurised sections off the single and the double baskets and then cut the side ridges off the single to enable it to become a second double.



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