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Thread: Conventional v pressurised baskets

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    Conventional v pressurised baskets

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    Good Morning Gregmacc,
    Whatever you do, DO NOT Modify/discard the pressurised group handle until you have really learned how to use it as specified.....properly used, these devices make a beautiful mellow coffee which allows you to svour all the delights of single origin coffees.
    I have three of these machines ,two Spidem at home and a Saeco (from memory) at work.....I wanted to spend big dollars on a well researched HX, E61 head, lever type, stunning looking Italian machine, provided I could have someone make me a coffee (long black) to my liking....ended up buying the last Spidem (pressurised group) available, simply because of the delightful coffee it makes.
    I too can get the pressurised group to spray a soggy mess everywhere if used incorrectly....and I suspect the Spidem group might operate a little different from the Via Venezia, so perhaps you might check out the instructions before giving up on the pressurised group, and I will keep you posted on a trick or two in getting the best from these little gems.
    For me,
    I only pull single expressos, ie. between 7-9 grms of beans....grind as you might for expresso, although this is not as critical as non-pressurised groups.....no need to fill the basket and go through the prosess of tamping at prescribed pressures etc....just gentle pressure.....after inserting the head and switching on, allow 5-6 seconds of pressurising before facilitating flow for around 16 seconds....a total of 20-22 seconds from suitch on....this will give you about 2.5 ozs of beautilul mellow coffee (depending on bean freshness, and roast quality)
    If you want a double.....make two singles as above rather than overfill the group...remember you dont have to fill these to the top of the basket.

    Try the above first...there is another important tip to using the Spidem group and Im not sure if this applies to the VV....I will fire up the Saeco (similar to the VV) at work tomorrow (havnt done so for a while) and will report back on the differences between the two.

    Best of luck
    Juliet Lima

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    Re: Conventional v pressurised baskets

    Sorry, but I disagree.

    Its not possible to produce a true espresso with a pressurised basket. Period. They are useful for beginners and thats pretty much it. Get a real basket as soon as you possibly can Greg.

    Pressurised baskets are produced to allow for the use of any old grind of pre-ground, stale supermarket coffee and they have nothing to do with espresso in my opinion. You will produce something black with false suds (aka crema) on top and thats it. Its not what I call coffee.

    While we are all on a journey, Id argue that you will learn little, if anything at all until you start grinding fresh with a real basket.

    Best bet is to get out there and taste coffee made by a true expert. Most cafe coffee is poor to average. The great baristi take us to a whole new level and understanding of what coffee is about.

    2mcm

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    Re: Conventional v pressurised baskets

    2mcm
    Already got a top drawer grinder... use only the freshest beans roasted in my HottopB...been Learning coffee for 30 years....give Gregmacc a break and try to help him....

    Quote
    " The pressurised group makes a lovely mellow collee"
    Attilio Cosmorex Coffee.

    I agree and hope that Gregmacc learns to use the VV fully before going down the path of more expense.
    JL

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    Re: Conventional v pressurised baskets

    No worries Juliet,

    Me too....I choose to continue to learn ;)

    I for one hope to never have to suffer the product of a pressurised basket again ::)

    Quote Originally Posted by 7055525465765F5E5E433A0 link=1276940047/4#4 date=1276988094
    " The pressurised group makes a lovely mellow collee"
    Think you will find that this was your quote, not Attilios as you have suggested. *:-?

    Quote Originally Posted by 3F60786E656E626B6B6868606C630D0 link=1276940047/3#3 date=1276987154
    Best bet is to get out there and taste coffee made by a true expert....
    Greg,

    Get out there and get that Iberital or hold out for a pre-loved Rocky in the CS For Sale forum. This will allow you to continue your journey beyond the first stop...

    2mcm

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    Re: Conventional v pressurised baskets

    2mcm,

    Sorry...the quote was Attilios....I bought the Spidem from him.

    Im not prone to falsehoods.

    John Leddy...(Juliet Lima)


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    Re: Conventional v pressurised baskets

    Quote Originally Posted by 663921373C373B3232313139353A540 link=1276940047/3#3 date=1276987154
    Most cafe coffee is poor to average
    Never were truer words spoken. :(

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    Re: Conventional v pressurised baskets

    Quote Originally Posted by 0D282F29180B2223233E470 link=1276940047/6#6 date=1276990765
    2mcm,

    Sorry...the quote was Attilios....I bought the Spidem from him.

    Im not prone to falsehoods.

    John Leddy...(Juliet Lima)
    Ahh.....Thats one I used to use in debating JL (John)....

    Quote anyone you like with whatever you want and youre a winner. Nobody can check and few are likely to question you. *;)

    Perhaps its time to ask Attilio what he prefers? As he uses a Diadema at home and similar machines at the office, I suspect I may know how he might answer. I reckon he might be able to taste the difference as well...

    The Spidem is a machine in a particular class, at a particular price point. Like others in this class, it can play above its height when used with a conventional basket coupled with a good grinder.

    Pressurised baskets are for beginners machines sold at low price points. Many beginners also incorrectly refer to espresso as "expresso".

    In my time, I have met plenty of beginners, some with up to 40 years of experience ::)

    Gregs looking for the best from his machine and thats not going to happen with a pressurised basket. Plain and simple.




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    Re: Conventional v pressurised baskets

    2mcm
    Taking exception to your two suggestions that I not truthful.

    All that has been said is that a "pressurised group makes a nice melloww coffee."

    Doubtless there are better.

    Im happy to have Attilio verify his comments made personnally to me....

    Enough of the attack...you are supposed to be a moderator....so no more suggesting Im not telling the truth.

    John Leddy
    Gosford

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    Re: Conventional v pressurised baskets

    Hi John,

    I looked back in the original thread to see where Attilio made the statement you mentioned and it wasnt there. That means we here dont know in what context the statement was made. Its open to interpretation and in fact it would be more appropriate for you to make the quote or quote yourself.

    The thread refers to getting the best results from the Via Venezia and its now a pressurised v conventional baskets debate. For that reason, much of the thread has been split away to leave Gregs question and Attilios response back in the original thread.

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    Re: Conventional v pressurised baskets

    2mcm
    As stated, Attilio made the comments to me personally when I visited Canberra in Jan/Feb this year.
    Attilio kindly showed me the range of high end expresso machines and the entry level models. I mentioned I already had a Spidem similar to the one he had on display.....thue his comment.
    He then showed me out the back and made me a coffee from the machine I had intended to buy.....too strong for me, and perfering the "more mellow" coffee taste, proceeded to buy the last remaining Spidem.

    This is not about holden vrs Jaguar...this is about trying to help Gregmacc enjoy his new purchase before "moving up

    Did Attilio make the "nice mellow coffee" comment....I doubt he would deny that.....are there better options? of course there are...and doubtless he will attest to that.

    As for me, life is too short to cop rudeness.

    Gone fishing!!
    Joliet Lima

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    Re: Conventional v pressurised baskets

    Conventional basket is the only way to go.

    For those reading and wondering which to go with here, it is always good on this forum to look for those posters who consistently know what they are talking about and consistently put out good information they have learned from a long journey of passion. May I suggest 2mcm is one of these.

    Go conventional for your eSpresso ;)

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    Re: Conventional v pressurised baskets

    Quote Originally Posted by 0B3A2D3435323934225B0 link=1276986114/10#10 date=1277003671
    .....

    Go conventional for your eSpresso ;)
    Thanks Pb,

    I use my espresso machine for espresso and when I want a bewdiful mellow coffee, I go povo and pull out the siphon. When I want expresso, I catch the train *;D

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    Re: Conventional v pressurised baskets

    Quote Originally Posted by 237C647279727E777774747C707F110 link=1276986114/11#11 date=1277017906
    When I want expresso, I catch the train
    You obviously dont live in sydney then... ;D

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    Re: Conventional v pressurised baskets

    Quote Originally Posted by 174850464D464A4343404048444B250 link=1276986114/11#11 date=1277017906
    I go povo and pull out the siphon.
    Now thats just being snobbish Syphons do not produce mellow coffees if your doing it right, plunger maybe but not Syphons ;)

    Back on topic

    Not sure if you really understand what the pressurised group or baskets actually do John from what you have written?

    What they are designed to do is regardless of bad technique, dose or grind size is provide a "fake" back pressure on the machine by use of the valve and then squirt somthing that sort of resembles crema out of the butt of the PF. Adjusting grind size really does nothing to help or hinder as the pressure of the shot is governed more by the mechanisim and not by the user. Apart from this they are prone to becoming blocked with fines and the quality of the brew is worse than with a proper basket.

    A few years ago I had a Solis SL90 that came standard with pressurised baskets which I replaced with a non pressurised one and the difference and improvement was immediate and very noticeable.

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    Re: Conventional v pressurised baskets

    Quote Originally Posted by 5750545B53594C5C5B52350 link=1276986114/13#13 date=1277080091
    Syphons do not produce mellow coffees
    Agreed bf, though I suspect that the OP may have been referring to body rather than flavour and aroma ;)

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    Re: Conventional v pressurised baskets

    Thanks beanflying,
    No I dont know the technicalities of a pressurised group.....but having set up the Seaco just a short while ago and pulled a shot of recently roasted Sulawesi, I noted a difference in the "crema" between that machine and both my Spidems at home. The group is also very different between the two machines....I suspect the Seaco is more like the VV that Gregmac has recently accquired....it has some sort of rubber material in the bottom of the group and dispenses coffee when inclined to rather than mauually as required with the Spidem

    The original Spidem purchased around ten years ago, has a head similar to the recently acquired Spidem from Cosmorex, the operation of both being quite different from the Seaco, and if not used correctly can produce a very ordinary cup of coffee....this I was hoping to pass onto gregmacc to help the concers he was raising.....
    With the Spidem group however, it is a manual operation which goes as follows.....group in hard to right, turn on and wait till pump noise slows noticably, usually 6 seconds...flick group handle to left to a predetermined stop point built in to the group,and coffee starts expressing.....the result with fresh beans etc.etc. is delightful....Taste and crema.
    Now this process might be unique to the Spidem...not sure, but the infomation could have been useful to a newbie having difficulties....then, it may not.


    This monning I kicked off with a beautiful mellow Jamacian Blue Mountain (single shot) and followed up with a delightful earthy tasting Sulawesi which left an aftertaste which was being savoured 30 mins later.

    The Spidem allows all the richness,subtleness and flavour of the single origin coffees I have been enjoying, to the point that I have difficulty enjoying coffee form a cafe....the exception being Cosmorex two weeks ago when visiting Canberra...their specialtity for the day was Sumatra Mandheling....almost as good as mine *(PLEASE the last comment is a joke...well sort of)

    Cheers
    Juliet Lima

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    Re: Conventional v pressurised baskets

    Hello all.

    The original pressurised group handle which as far as I remember, was invented by Mario Muttoni the owner of Spidem around 25 to 30 years ago, and as used on the old Spidem owned by JL, was a pretty good item and brought quite a good standard of espresso to the masses when most of em were still drinking instant coffee *;), and also at a time when espresso education was pretty much zero. It made espresso drinkable for those who wanted to try, but coudnt come to espresso "proper" as made with a stove top or a commercial machine.

    It remained in production on a limited number of small domestic machines until perhaps 7 or 8 years ago or more when it was replaced with the modern Saeco pressurised group handle as seen on late model domestic Saecos, Spidems, La Pavonis etc & which is a different technology to the original and does not brew as well (noticably).

    The original MM pressurised group handle makes an espresso akin to that which you get from a modern automatic espresso machine. When either is used properly and with good beans, it gives a certain type of espresso which I am happy to describe as "a lovely mellow coffee". I will repeat.....when used properly with good beans...and that is the same rule for any method of coffee brewing.

    Any coffee making machine whether espresso or not *when used badly, will make garbage, and I am not talking about that.

    I usually note there are different forms of espresso depending on the type of equipment used.

    a) moka pot
    b) domestic pump driven esp machine using boiler;
    c) domestic pump driven esp machine using thermoblock;
    d) domestic pump driven esp machine using boiler & pressurised gr handle
    e) domestic pump driven esp machine using thermoblock & pressurised gr handle
    f) automatic espresso machine
    g) hx machine
    h) multi boiler machine
    i) manual lever machine.

    Have I left anything out?

    All are legitimate espresso machine designs manufactured for different markets and for different reasons, suited to different individuals and circumstances, and it is generally accepted that using the same beans throughout will produce different results in each.

    BF, you made a very interesting comment and I quote "...A few years ago I had a Solis SL90 that came standard with pressurised baskets which I replaced with a non pressurised one and the difference and improvement was immediate and very noticeable....."

    JL spent considerable time over a period with myself and others in my employ, deciding what he liked. *Standard commercial strength / style espresso as produced with my very well set up cupping rig did not cut it for him, and despite the original reason for him coming in was to buy a semi commercial Diadema Junior HX machine, this did not eventuate because the style of espresso produced did not suit him.

    You have to go with what you like.

    Now what was the question *:)

    Regardz,
    A.



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