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Thread: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

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    PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Gene Cafe Coffee Roaster $850 - Free Beans Free Freight
    I have a Saeco Via Venezia and a Rocky w/Doser and can make decent enough lattes and cappuccinos but still have the odd burnt/bitter one that has to be thrown away.. Im saving for a Used Silvia + PID when the right one comes along..

    Decided to put a PID into the Saeco to see if it would help, but didnt wish to outlay the $200 for a kit that did brew only... I did some research, found the wiring diagrams and ordered a Sestos D1S-VR-220 (Similar in function to Auber SYL-2352) with SSR and K-type thermocouple for $42... it arrived after 2 weeks.

    Tonight a friend and I traced the wiring of the Saeco, confirmed against a diagram Id found, understood how it worked, where the active and neutral circuits went etc. Saeco switches on the neutral line...

    We wired in the PID kit on the bench (kitchen table); active and neutral from the terminal block for the time being; thermocouple wedged next to the overtemp stat; SSR wired to PID with correct polarity; SSR connected in place of the brew stat.

    First we fired up the machine with the SSR disconnected from the brew stat, let it get to temp, observed the PID switch off the SSR once PV = SV. Turned all off, disconnected from power, wired in the SSR in place of the brew stat.

    Set the SV to 93.3, it proceeded to get to temp, overshoot by a few degrees then it held it around 93.2-4 for a minute. Satisfied we unplugged everything and took a break.

    I wanted to browse the alarm functions of the Sestos to see if it can be used as per the Skene Design page to regulate the steam temperature by passing 12v through the alarm contacts at the push of the Steam switch.... we proceeded to switch on power to the Saeco without switching the machine itself on (PID was still getting power from terminal block, before the switch)...

    The Sestos fired up a quick self test, then proceeded to flash both SV and PV displays "orAL".. followed by smoke rising from within the PID... we shut it down, disconnected everything and found a burnt resistor.... off to jaycar tomorrow and if the seller wont replace it or doesnt want it sent back Ill solder in the replacement to see if can be made to work (not that Id trust it but enough to get everything wired and working for a new PID unit)...

    We cannot figure out anything wrong with our wiring, perhaps you guys can pick holes in what we did?

    Perhaps its just a cheap PID biting the dust? (weve seen quality equipment fizzle... it happens...)

    Im thinking a quick blow fuse should be wired in between the Saeco switch and PID, what amperage would be suitable?

    Its a bit concerning as certainly if this happened whilst unattended itd probably burn out; hopefully setting off the RCD or safety on that circuit before starting a fire.

    I will be persisting with replacing the broken PID... I know I didnt want to spend $200... Im upto $60 atm... but I think Ill buy a slightly more reputable PID... Looking at the Autonics TK4S-14CN as its got multiple set points and avoids having to use the alarm for steam... or an Auber/Fuji/Watlow.... but then if I do that I should have just forked over the coin or thrown the PID SaecoVV idea in the bin, but this has been worthwhile in knowing how the machines work :)

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Why dont you post a schematic of how you wired it up? Bit hard to be 100% clear on what you did.

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Quote Originally Posted by 7473786F69747C251D0 link=1335452934/0#0 date=1335452934
    I wanted to browse the alarm functions of the Sestos to see if it can be used as per the Skene Design page to regulate the steam temperature by passing 12v through the alarm contacts at the push of the Steam switch.... we proceeded to switch on power to the Saeco without switching the machine itself on (PID was still getting power from terminal block, before the switch)...
    What was your 12V source for the alarm contact?* Also, are you sure the alarm contacts wants 12V or is it a volt-free contact that just needs to be closed to ground?

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Sorry guys, Ill try to clarify.

    Id not yet gotten to the stage of putting in place a 12v source for the alarm contact.. I was trying to first determine if the alarm functions would operate as needed before looking further into wiring in the 12v source; I had planned to use a 240v-12v transformer for LED down lights.

    PID Manual (not much of a manual btw!): is available by googling sestos d1s, its the first result.

    Wiring as follows:
    Terminal 3 had K-type TC negative.
    Terminal 4 had K-type TC positive.
    Terminal 6 had SSR Input negative.
    Terminal 8 had SSR Input positive.
    Terminals 9 & 10 had 240v Active from terminal block.

    SSR was wired in place of the Brew thermostat.

    At the time of the incident the machine itself was switched off, we turned on the power point and thus power was given to the PID via terminal block, it immediately displayed the error and then the smoke escaped shortly thereafter.

    According to a net search that error related to thermocouple wiring and if the thermocouple checks out then its an error with the controller.

    Thanks for your help.

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    instead of using alarm contacts, remove the alarm relay , and use the 5v for relay to drive the SSR via the steam switch, thats what i did with my gaggia.

    this way you dont need an external supply for relay contacts

    but the alarm set point need to be inverted. alarm is on and goes off when alarm temp reached.

    my pid is set to 107c and my alarm is 43c (43c above 107c)

    when i close steam switch it will connect to ssr and increase temp to 150 and then alarm will turn off, when it goes below 150 alarm will turn on.

    when steam switch off it disconnects from ssr and normal pid back in use.









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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Quote Originally Posted by 46414A5D5B464E172F0 link=1335452934/3#3 date=1335486406
    Id not yet gotten to the stage of putting in place a 12v source for the alarm contact
    without looking at the wiring, this is better than I thought, since I thought you changed something and then it fizzed :)

    (just realised my last post was my 1000th!)

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Hmmm, I think you might need one of these to assist you on the journey to repair your PID


    of course, I dont know where you can get them, I havent dealt with the stuff in years... ;D

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Hehehe, awesome!

    Im just going to solder in a new resistor tonight and see if it works... its not like a massive outlay if the thing goes completely belly up.

    Firepower;

    Can you please explain how you wired up your alarm steam temp control?

    I cannot see a way to trigger the alarm externally via a switch with this unit, so thats why I was going with the external transformer (ended up picking up little a 9v unit from jaycar just in case today).

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Im using the same PID controller, but to drive a single SSR for brewing only. Just finished the project, but so far very happy with the unit. Any chance there could have been a short to the thermocouple which cooked the resistor?

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Quote Originally Posted by 09263D2A3F20382A3D4F0 link=1335452934/4#4 date=1335504538
    instead of using alarm contacts, remove the alarm relay , and use the 5v for relay to drive the SSR via the steam switch, thats what i did with my gaggia.

    this way you dont need an external supply for relay contacts

    but the alarm set point need to be inverted.* alarm is on and goes off when alarm temp reached.

    my pid is set to 107c and my alarm is 43c (43c above 107c)

    when i close steam switch it will connect to ssr and increase temp to 150 and then alarm will turn off, when it goes below 150 alarm will turn on.

    when steam switch off it disconnects from ssr and normal pid back in use.

    Mate, Just wondering what your wiring configuration for your steam function is and more so how is it programmed in the menu.

    Ive had the sestos pid sitting around for a couple of weeks, now i finally have the time to set it up.

    Also is it necessary to run the pid with a 2nd switch. I was thinking of running it in parallel on the power switch of my gaggia.

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Think I understand, after re-reading, you are sending the alarm output 5v VIA the steam switch and then into the SSR.

    I assume youre using diodes on the wire from steam switch to SSR and from PID to SSR?

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Update:

    Wired in the replacement resistor and the PID is back to being operational.

    Were currently working out the alarm setting, essentially I want it to not display the warning/alarm alternating with the Set Value... I just want the discreet alarm light lit until steam temp is reached, so during idle/brew operation the PID will be pulsing the OUT light and the AL1 will be on constantly...

    I looked at removing the relay, cant really be bothered so Im just going to use a transformer mounted in the jiffy box or under the boiler plate in the little plastic compartment (this is probably where the SSR will reside if it doesnt get too hot, otherwise Ill have to mount it to metal somewhere with some thermal paste.)

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    In normal operation when switched on power flows through brew stat until it reaches 96deg and breaks the connection. The steam switch provides the ability to feed power directly into the steam stat and the boiler will be switched off at 127deg.

    Given this we ended up simply bypassing it and connecting the SSR between the input wire of the brew stat and the output wire of the steam stat which connects directly to the boiler.

    The neutral connection via the overtemp cutoff stat has been retained, this breaks connection at 170deg.

    The default Alarm Parameter setting of 0 has the high alarm break the connection between the COM and NC (Normally Closed) terminals once the PV = high temp + hysteresis. We also see the display of SV alternating between SV and the Alarm that was triggered....

    Taking a leaf out of the Auber manual whereby you need to enable the E parameter in the alarm parameter calculation; we set the parameter to 16 and were greeted with the behaviour of the 0 setting with the display remaining locked to SV. Only the AL1 light comes on once the alarm is triggered (steam temp reached). Perfect.

    Have yet to be able to test this as one of the diodes we got appears to be dead... so another trip to jaycar is on the cards for tomorrow (Ive been living on instant...)

    In truth Ive probably spent close to $100 with all the stuffing around and its cost me another $100 in buying stuff at Jaycar that I wouldnt have bought had I not gone in there! Anyway, the experience has been rewarding so far, a replacement PID will be sent and Ill toss up which one to use in the future... probably use the replacement and junk this one or keep it in the shed for an outdoors project.

    Will post back once its all finished and operationally tested/tuned.

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    All finished, time to tune. Also need to calibrate the sensor against a known goodun.

    Steam temp alarm has been set back to 120... lets just say that as it approached 130 on the PID display the group head let out a gush of steam... the stock steam stat clicks off at 109deg on the PID display.... anyway.

    Autotune has it sitting about 2deg above the set point so will have to work this out myself.

    Firepower, I wouldnt mind knowing the Sestos settings for your Gaggia as a rough guide. Will be playing around with it tomorrow night.

    Cheers.

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    With my PID, i found that the autotune setting was really acurate, when i turn the machine on, it would reach the set temp and not overshoot and just hold at the right temp.
    but the problem was, when i started brewing the coffee, the temp would dip down like 10 degrees before it realised that it needs to have the element on full bore to keep up.
    In the end i googled what settings other people were using and made some small changes to those. and its working pretty well now, only thing is it does overshoot about 10 degrees initially, but a short flush fixes that pretty quick.

    also, my machine is a thermoblock machine, so you might not find you have this problem at all. just thought id throw in my second crack

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Thanks for the input Wilki.

    I let the temp stabilize and it was sitting about 1-2deg above the set point. After an hour I pumped in a cups worth of cool water then set auto tune. Its better now, holding within .5deg C. The response time after a shot is still a bit long.

    Ive not yet tried making a coffee, that will come tomorrow.

    The temp dips down a hell of a lot, down into the 60s... when pumping water through it, I suspect when a puck of coffee is in the way the drop will be nothing like this.

    I did put a trusted thermocouple in next to the PIDs one and it was constantly off about 4deg C... Ive changed it so they match but Im going to try and calibrate it properly.

    I guess all I can do now is to do the paper cup temp test and set the SV so that the water temp is about right and go from there.

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Played around trying to get it to settle on the set point, found a post by robusto on here who used the Auber model that the Sestos is copied from...

    His settings have it sitting bang on the set point, fluctuating .1deg here and there... very nice.

    P=55
    I=1251
    D=36

    Still overshoots by about 7-8deg if I flush the boiler, well see how it goes recovering from shots.

    The group head starts leaking and steaming at about 120-125deg... might need to look into replacing some seals.

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    just installed my pid then... However, it seems to be overshooting massively. I have my SV at 105C and I havnt touched any of the other settings.

    as i turn the machine on, I can see that the PID is doing its job because its turning the heating element on and off and kind of fluctuating between 105C however the heat seems to slowly escalate to the point where I need to flush the boiler as temperature is up to 120-130.

    The instructions with the sestos pid basically said nothing about autotuning. I have no idea how to start autotuning or if its actually automatic and starts as soon as i turn on the pid/machine. Perhaps im not leaving it on long enough, but since the temperature keeps rising and rising I dont really see how the PID is actually learning anything..

    anyone have any recommendations?

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    so yeh.. its been running for about 20 minutes and its oscilating around 120-130C when the preset is 105C. I dont have any alarm set or anything so I dont understand why its overshooting. The PID is turning on the boiler on and off for about 1-2 seconds at a time which is waaay too long. causing it to overshoot. I still havnt figured out the autotune function.

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    To autotune the Sestos (not that its been of any use on my setup)..

    Hold down Set till u get to the parameters, starting with HIAL. Then keep pressing Set until it reads Ctrl, which will be set to 3 for PID control. Change this to 2 then hold down Set to cycle out of the parameters.

    You will now have the SV flashing and changing to At (Autotune).

    Might be best to do this after flushing the boiler down to about 70deg.

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    ahh legend.. Cant wait to try that once i get home. I think auto tune might be an improvement over my current 125C water temp. I got about 3m of copper tubing preheating the intake of water as well. Even as the PID holds the temp around 125C. Flushing a good 50-100ml of water doesnt drop more than 10-15C. So i imagine if its holding a constant 105C its gonna be temp stable for at least 50-60ml double shot.

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Hi guys & girls. I just got a Lucy with a sestos Kit from evilbay on its way. Questions

    How do I/ or do I change the screw type thermocouple coming with it to fit under one of the screws on the top of the boiler?

    Space is pretty tight in the Lucy and I was wondering(always a silly thing) what is stopping us from putting the SSR in the project box that the sestos will live in?

    where are you gettinh the project boxs from?

    The learning curve on the Lucy is steep coming from the icon and you cant temp surf because there is no boiler "on" light, so this is hopefully going to help ;D ;D


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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Quote Originally Posted by 5C485F5E5E430B08093A0 link=1335452934/21#21 date=1336455130
    How do I/ or do I change the screw type thermocouple coming with it to fit under one of the screws on the top of the boiler?
    The K type thermo couple has an M6 screw in on the end. Or atleast mine did. Its quite easy to get off. Its just been crimped on so if you grab a screw driver or a pointy object and just pry open the spot its been crimped it will just slide out.

    Also, Cheers inertia8! Got my pid all setup autotuned and its holding temperature spot on +/- 0.second crack now its just a matter of measuring the brew head water temperature and adjusting my SV till i get about 94C (i dont know, is that optimal?) at the head. Also my preheating coil is working like a boss - only getting about a 0.5 - first crack drop when i half fill a cup with water and almost not noticeable if im pulling a shot.

    Ill post some pics of the guts, pid and preheater when i get a chance.

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Sounds good mompt.

    Ive been trying to tune mine tonight, changing settings.. problem being with all that thermal heat the PID thinks it needs to kick in to bring up the temp... essentially adding far too much heat from the element. Trying to dampen its response to temp drop... which is rather large on the Saeco... must be due to placement right next to the inlet, its dropping 20-30deg on simply water pours and about 15-20 on shots, though a tough shot only drops 10.

    I have my SSR velcroed in place in the project box... the 12v steam transformer (an led downlight transformer) resides within the plastic shelf under the boiler plate on the saeco.

    Im going to try and autotune with it sitting at 5deg over the set point, failing that Im moving the thermocouple to the other side of the boiler...

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Autotune made no difference, was constantly sitting 1.5deg over SV...

    Ill be changing thermocouples and moving it to the opposite side of the water inlet; the biggest issue that I can tell is that the PID sees a massive/fast drop, pumps in the power and over does it...

    Ive since changed to pouring my shot first, then steaming... not ideal but im happy enough... might even do me until Ive saved up enough for a replacement machine.

    Will let you know if I do find a good solution; Id love to make a preheat coil of copper around the boiler but I think its too much work for such a little machine. :-/

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Quote Originally Posted by 46414A5D5B464E172F0 link=1335452934/24#24 date=1336550041
    Autotune made no difference, was constantly sitting 1.5deg over SV...
    .... Id love to make a preheat coil of copper around the boiler but I think its too much work for such a little machine. :-/
    It doest make sense for the PID to consistently maintain a temp 1.5deg above its set point ???
    ..BUT if it is "consistent" then why not simply reset the SV down by 1.5 deg ?

    I also considered the "pre-heat" coil for my PIDd Silvia, as the temp will drop by 5+ deg during a shot, ...but since the shots are very good, i cant justify the messing about just to see a temp readout stay stable ! :-/

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    It is strange behaviour. If the overshoot was being controlled I would leave It.

    Totally understand re digital readout. Was better not knowing!

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Quote Originally Posted by 2423283F39242C754D0 link=1335452934/10#10 date=1335525170
    Think I understand, after re-reading, you are sending the alarm output 5v VIA the steam switch and then into the SSR.

    I assume youre using diodes on the wire from steam switch to SSR and from PID to SSR?
    yes i put the diode inside pid after removing each relay,
    from 5v relay coil drive to relay contact point.
    and a link from relay 0v to other relay contact point.

    alarm out 5v ----diode--|>|--- to steam switch -----to SSR +
    alarm out 0v----------------------------------------to SSR -

    pid out 5v -----diode--|>|---------------------------to SSR +
    pid out 0v -----------------------------------------to SSR -

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    i measured water temp no group from shower screen into syrofoam cup , adjust temp until you get the temp you want in cup, i set mine for 107C for 98C in cup = temp of water into coffee grounds.

    good place to start is using same temp as thermostat you remove if thermocouple mounted in same place.



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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Hello Gents,

    The SESTOS kit arrived yesterday!! On the thermocouple I have removed the screw from the inner steel tip but am scared that I will damage the internals inside the tip as the tip still doesn’t come off from the braided wire easily.* Do I just attach the tip as it is to the boiler or do I remove it and take the chance of damage? Could someone please post a photo of their amended screw type thermocouple so I can get some clue. ;D

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Hey Freddy123, is your thermocouple like this one? http://img.alibaba.com/wsphoto/377772339/Free-Shipping-10pcs-lot-thread-thermocouple-K-type-RTD-Sensor-M6.jpg

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    That looks exactly like it! In the sticky guide to "pid a silvia" the same one appears in one photo and then morphs into two wires joined by a bead that we must be careful not to break. Just wanting to know how or if I should remove the inner metal sheath to leave just the wires and bead to attach to the boiler?

    Getting exited to put this into action ;D

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    just use a small metal tool like a micro screw driver or a skewer to pry open the entire metal sheath. Then just slide it out.


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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    The ones with the 2 wires and a bead are a different type. the one you have is much more sturdy. you pretty much just want to mount it so you get the best thermal contact. I have one the same as yours and I mounted it to my thermal block by unscrewing the existing thermostat and jamming it undernath and screwing the thermostat over the top of it. i also covered the thermocouple with thermal paste for better contact. - I have no idea if this is the best way to do it or not, but its how I did it and it works OK.

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Gents,

    The thermocouple strip has been done with a watch screwdriver and a gentle tug.* I thought I had stuffed it as I couldnt see the bead or the two wires but slowly removing shielding exposed* the wires joined by the bead. :-* I then wired the sestos with power and the thermocouple to test.* All good with the PV reading the room temp with the SV at factory 500( then changed it to 16 degrees).* I then for fun connected the ssr and started to play to see the response of it switching on/off.(I Know nothing about the unit and just wanted to see if it would register a change in temp firstly and then wanted to see the output to the ssr go on and off as i raised/dropped the temp of the thermocouple.* All worked so far and I will attempt the real project over the next two days.*

    Im sure Ill have many questions but for now I want to thank* *everyone who has come before and educated all of us in this process!!* PS Thanks for the great responses so far to my inept questions.

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Well the sestos project is done!!!* The Lucy* design had its advantages and disadvantages for the addition(Separate & convenient hole just waiting for the external wiring exit but mounting the SSR was a little harder, it couldnt fit behind the splashback so went in at the back of the boiler where the other main power cord terminates).* I can say that the hardest part of the whole project was getting the wiring into the sestos in the project box.

    Ive done three autotunes and manually put in the figures that were earlier in the thread for P I D.* I also changed the control period to 2 as per the auber instructions.* It stabilizes just fine on the SV but after shot overshoots by up to 8-10 degrees before coming back down.* I would like to fix this but am not really worried if this is the best we get.

    I am going to try to get magnetic tape to attach the project box to the LUCY so as to be completely reversible otherwise double sided tape will have to do.

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    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    I used doubled-sided, figured itd clean off the metal fairly easily but Im not worried about re-sale.

    Ive stopped trying to tune it for now and am enjoying a slightly more consistent cup... still overshoots the same 8-10c, so Im still pulling the shot first and then doing the milk...

    Ive yet to relocate the temp probe or try changing it etc. Essentially its too aggressive in trying to combat sudden temp drops, even if 10-15c above the SV (cold flushing after steaming), this results in large overshoots.

    In the meantime Ive saving for an upgrade, having thought about it I dont think Ill go for a PID silvia, perhaps a BDB or an Oscar... for now the Saeco will do just fine as it has for years :).

  38. #38
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    82

    Re: PID Install - Saeco Via Venezia - PID burnt a resistor...

    Welp, towards the end of my morning shot the RCD cut off power to the house... a couple of back and forths confirmed that the culprit is the little Saeco... or the cheap POS hanging off the side of it.

    Ill be reversing the mods tonight, never did get the PID setup as I wanted, I will say that I was getting more consistent coffees from the machine.

    It is probably time for an upgrade though...



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